Manadhil oru paattu - Song of the moment - Vol 1

kv wrote:Speed of Raaja’s melodies has been something that has always had me curious. He seems to like to keep his melodies pretty ‘brisk’, doesn’t he? Trying to quickly recall songs that are comparatively slow in tempo, the list I’m able to form in my head is rather short (I’m thinking vaana mazhai pOlE pace, ok?). That the songs can be dripping & drenched in their emotions, be it romance or melancholy or happiness or peace, is beyond any doubt, but the tempo he sets them to, IMO, has very seldom been ‘really’ slow. Even an emotionally crushing, devastating song like engE sellum indha pAdhai is pretty briskly-paced. Even his latest offering, Oru Oorla, has a lovely melody - vanathil vanna - with beautiful chord work & lovely tune. Other composers (let’s say Vishal Bharadwaj/ARR) would likely have set it to a much slower tempo, I’d imagine; look at what our man does here! And this has often had me wondering on what thought process might be driving this in that complex circuitry of the rAkshasan’s brain (“composing is not from the brain” nu saar kOchupaar, adhu vEra vishayam!). Is it that he doesn’t like his songs to be ‘meandering’? Has this got something to do with the precision & song-structuring from the WCM school of thought? Or is it something as simple as trying to match the visuals the songs are set to? Has the man himself ever spoken about this in any interviews/discussions?

Pace is determined entirely by the picturisation details provided by director - He considers himself in the shoes of the average viewer in the theater and composes
a pathos song - that needs to be touching - not necessarily slow. When screen time is such a precious commodity - wasting it by doing a slow mo ghazal is a crime imo.

I disagree with the last line.  Why should a slow ghazal be a waste of time if it can also be very engaging and touching? It could be inferred from this that IR indulges in lowest common denominatorisation of music.  I don't think he does and songs like Panneer Pushpangale, Ellorukkum Sollum Paatu, even Thenpandi ?, attest to this.  Rather, I would put it this way: IR does not subscribe to the then (late 70s) stereotype in Indian film music that sad songs always have to be slow.  Sad songs can also be intense or angry rather than only plaintive.

Screen time kum idhukkum sammandham illa. For many songs, only the situation outline is given. So, composing happens first, screen pacing, picturization later. This is a musical signature

Very interesting point KV. I also have the same thought about IR songs keeping up a brisk pace without any slackness even during poignant , heavy situations. Examples are plenty like "idhayam pogudhey" till "satru munbu" . One can feel the tautness even in these kind of songs. Generally for pathos, IMO, the MDs resort to slow pace, hollow orchestration,emotions going overboard, loose composition and need fillers to patch up the gaping hollowness. My patience normally wears off in most of the cases. I personally cannot stand the singer wailing in the drag of a Shivaranjani in "unakkena iruppEn". You can compare the Yesudas's sad song in Uzhvan with Raja's pathos in araNmanai kIli "en thAyennum kOvilai" and check for yourself how for similar situation[ mother death] , the concerned MDs have handled.

So in emotionally moving scenario, Raja not only maintains the pace, keeping the emotional restraint but also has his usual orchestral elements intact and also cleverly employs some situational distractions like maadu meikkaravan, meen pidikkaravan kural in between so that the listeners stay glued till the end.

　

　

mythila wrote:I also have the same thought about IR songs keeping up a brisk pace without any slackness even during poignant , heavy situations. Examples are plenty like "idhayam pogudhey" till "satru munbu" . One can feel the tautness even in these kind of songs. Generally for pathos, IMO, the MDs resort to slow pace, hollow orchestration,emotions going overboard, loose composition and need fillers to patch up the gaping hollowness. My patience normally wears off in most of the cases. I personally cannot stand the singer wailing in the drag of a Shivaranjani in "unakkena iruppEn". 

I think these are very good points. No slackening, no fillers, no cheapos like wailing in Shivaranjani as you put it ( I can't stand that Unakkena song either). Whether it is a relatively slow song like "Ucchi vagundeduthu" or a fiery galloping composition such as "Eduta neeve", one can be sure that he packs enough surprises to keep the listener guessing throughout. But I agree with KV's point on the whole - I am hard pressed to think of too many songs at the pace of VAnam mazhai pOle. Maybe VAnam thotto pOnal and thenpAndi cheemayile might just make the list.

Bala (Karthik) wrote:Screen time kum idhukkum sammandham illa. For many songs, only the situation outline is given. So, composing happens first, screen pacing, picturization later. This is a musical signature

Do you think any thamizh cinema director will go to a composer and ask for slow paced song?
Sorry crimson_king- while i am a great fan of ghazal songs, I dont think movies are the right medium for a picturised ghazal song. BGM filler- allright - but then it might as well not be played, for ghazal for all its superficial semblance of lightness is soaked in heavy mood and melancholy. It takes a Gurudutt to picturise slow slow song in an arresting fashion.
In thamizh context, Raaja parvai had the azhagu azhagu dhevadhai - singing is all ghazal with KJY sounding every pence a ghazal singer - the interludes are not - because they are trying to describe a light hearted banter between the hero and the heroine - if we had the monotonous, set piece orchestration of ghazal there- it would have been a kill joy.
Now when Raaja makes "Vaana mazhai pole" for P Vasu - the on screen parameters are more strictly laid out - a challenge for hero to prove his finer musical sensibilities to a heroine both music school students - there you see Raaja sticking to a ghazal orchestration 100%. Unlike other composers, Raaja constructs the situation in mind and brings out the song - even if the director naively asks for a basic love feel song or a basic pathos. That is why legendary KV calls him a "director" among musicians.

Jai, I too tend to think that this is a ‘choice’ that Raaja makes than it being a matter of servicing the needs of the visuals/scenarios (and hence I’d too see it as somewhat a signature of the man). Now, we’re talking speed within the subset ‘melody’, alright (as opposed to slow songs versus fast-paced songs, because if one were to do a random opinion check from the general public, Raja would likely be labeled as the person who gives soothing ‘melodies’, which is a kinda indicator that melodies by themselves are largely perceived as slow-paced and our man is seen as one of its exponents; we’re not quite discussing this; like my boss would say - just to make sure we’re all on the same page).
And Mythila/Fring, I’m not even hinting at comparing one style versus another and/or take sides. I think these aspects - tempo, ragam, etc – are, director/situation demands notwithstanding, choices and decisions that a composer would make. And tempo being one of the basic structural elements of a song, I’d imagine that any composer would deliberate and try to have his say/stamp over its pacing while creating a song. Even if we try to isolate situation/scenario/visuals from the music and look at songs/pieces from Raaja’s non-film albums, it’d be pretty rare to find ‘really slow’ songs. Kaaranam indri kanneer varum is like an instant tear-catalyst to me, but again, look at that pace! Now, let me clarify… I’m not saying that a sad or reflective song MUST be ‘grinding’ or ‘dragging’ in its tempo. I honestly think there’s no right or wrong tempo with respect to the ‘speed’ a song can be set to. If Joshua made unakkena that way, it’s simply his interpretation & representation of emotions & music (and I think unakkena is a pretty decent song even though the singing can be slightly over-the-top at times). I’m simply curious & interested in seeing/understanding how different composers approach ‘speed/tempo’ in their work (and not ‘comparing’ to see if one style/approach is better than another).
To quote an example, I’ll use another of my all-time favorite songs – jag ja re gudiya from omkara by VB. This is a quintessential lullaby (that the hero sings to wake up his lover! awww!) with minimal orchestration, very intimate singing, beautiful lyrics, no fillers and all that. And I don’t know if it’s just my perception, but the song’s tempo feels very slow. While song-to-song or scenario-to-scenario comparison can be of very minimal or no use in this regard really (in my opinion), we could probably take laali laali from Swati Muthyam or kannE kalaimaane just to highlight the difference in the setting of pace and rhythm that Raaja often seems to operates with. There’s no question of ‘which one is more effective?’ because that’s going to be completely subjective to the listener. I know I’m going nowhere with this post and unfortunately I don’t have any conclusions to draw or inferences to make! Quite simply observations and perceptions are all they will remain as.

I

jaiganesh wrote:

Bala (Karthik) wrote:Screen time kum idhukkum sammandham illa. For many songs, only the situation outline is given. So, composing happens first, screen pacing, picturization later. This is a musical signature

Do you think any thamizh cinema director will go to a composer and ask for slow paced song?
Sorry crimson_king- while i am a great fan of ghazal songs, I dont think movies are the right medium for a picturised ghazal song. BGM filler- allright - but then it might as well not be played, for ghazal for all its superficial semblance of lightness is soaked in heavy mood and melancholy. It takes a Gurudutt to picturise slow slow song in an arresting fashion.

That entirely depends on the director in the question.  There is nothing that CANNOT be picturised, artistically speaking. This scene is pivotal to the movie and the male duet (not strictly speaking a ghazal but in the general style) is beautifully sung and orchestrated.  And Dilip Kumar was one of the top stars of the 60s.




And what about Dil Dhoondtha Hai?  It sets the mood for the entire film (and one of my all time favourite Hindi films, Mausam):




If we are going to talk about what the average moviegoer wants, it is debatable whether the average viewer really looks particularly for IR-quality music, fast or otherwise.  Last two decades give the answer.  And if it is Jagjit-type ghazals that you find boring, I would completely agree, but that is the fault of singers like him, not the ghazal format which is brilliant for evoking a certain melancholy tinged romantic mood and has/had a place in the kind of lyrical, grand films that Bolly used to make up to the 60s.
edit: You mentioned that Tamil directors may not ask for a slow song in the first place. That brings out the South-North cultural differences. You have to listen to the leisurely sing song drawl with which they speak Hindi. Even hindustani music is more drawn out, loose and meandering compared to Carnatic. Rhythm is a bit less emphasized in North.

Excellent post guys. KV, please continue your observations. And be a regular in the forum I agree Raaja's sad/pathos songs are significantly faster than the normal songs composed and that can definitely be attributed as a composing signature. Of course there are slow songs and one may underline Nilave Mugam Kaattu. But even Raaja's slow pathos songs (Vaana Mazhai isn't a pathos song but yeah it is slow) are significantly faster than other composers' pathos songs. Whether that works with the listener more or a slow pathos song from another composer does is entirely subjective like KV said. But I feel a definite case can be made that Raaja's majority of pathos songs have a discernibly faster pace than the usual pathos songs associated with other composers.

Very good observation by KV. I never thought about the pace. I have only observed the orchestration. IR does use 'drastic' orchestration in 'virakthi' type song. For eg. very hard hitting drums in paadi parandha kiLi. I atribute this to the different grades/levels of feelings/emotions in IR's music versus other not-so-serious type composers who go far happy/sad/fun fixed types.
Re: what type/pace of song is good for picturization - I think not only ghazal , even carnatic music is not good for movies. Per my observation pure carnatic kind of singing in movies always had a 'sabha' kind of situation. This is because visuals can be a distraction to the nuances in the music (and/or lyrics, especially in ghazals). These are 'chamber' kind of music and better enjoyed in an 'intimate' setting. Western classical suits well for films because the genre itself was invented for a bigger audience (palace/coronation, church, march etc). Well this is probably stating the obvious, but I hope we are all on the same page on this. Indian Film music genre itself is a based on this - infusion of WCM/orchestra into indian singing. Maybe, IR, is being true to the genre and tries to pack the pace and instruments into the song, to fit with the big screen.
(BTW, I dont think IR is a very successful composers if you look at his whole repertoire ..his innovations are not well received.. his output is so much, just the simple ones are creating such a fan following for him, all IMHO)

Sindhu Bhairavi, saar!    Anything, if appropriately executed, can work in the context of a film, for the artist.  Whether or not it meets the stereotypes a moviegoer already has in mind is another matter altogether.  Some of the most memorable Hindi songs of yesteryear are great semi-classical numbers - Duniya ke Rakhwale, Koi Matwala, Jhanak Jhanak.  There is a concept of mehfil in the North that people don't talk about much in Southern arts or if they do, I don't know what is the equivalent term.  Ghazals create a mehfil and if used well the mehfil can be apt for the mood of the film.  Gulzar used another ghazal, Ruke Ruke Se Kadam, in Mausam and it was also very apt for the situation.  As I said in an earlier post, it is a more lyrical, romantic approach to filmmaking where the audio-visual blend is intended to convey poignant but hard-to-articulate emotions.  Maybe you or jaiganesh are more interested in plot development and hence find a ghazal or classical number intrusive. But I reckon the director only wants the movie goer to soak in the emotions conveyed by the ghazal and the overall atmosphere rather than get distracted by the technicalities. The musical nuances are meant to be appreciated later, maybe on cassette/CD.  Again, this argument can be applied to lots of IR songs which are not ghazal or slow.  Concentrating on the nuances of Pani Vizhum Iravu could make it distracting and intrusive but it is quite beautifully picturised.

tweeter from Violin vicky........... tweeter il illamal ivaroda post ai parka mudindhadhu...........
Hearty Thanks Vicky.....

angae partha Rare song. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRGDixCx53I

This is the first time listening...............

IR and KC........  neraiya time kaekanam. indha Rajavai.............. Beautiful Interludes..........

@CK - was that a response to my point as well ? I did mention the 'sabha' kind of situation. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule.

Not all the songs in that film are set to a sabha background.  Anyhow, the point is if there are exceptions it means it is not necessarily a self evident truth that carnatic/hindustani numbers or ghazals cannot work in films. They can, it depends on the subject matter.  If you mean they can't work in a stereotyped boy-meets-girl-meets-devilish-finlaw-masala potboiler tragedy with maybe a Mike Mohan song thrown in, by and large I would agree. But there are thankfully many films that have overcome these so called must have cliches and even engaged the audience against all odds.  More power to them.

I think not only ghazal , even carnatic music is not good for movies. Per my observation pure carnatic kind of singing in movies always had a 'sabha' kind of situation.

concur wrt carnatic music more so since its often intertwined with only 2 castes, atleast in TN.

situation song

kiru wrote: Well this is probably stating the obvious, but I hope we are all on the same page on this. Indian Film music genre itself is a based on this - infusion of WCM/orchestra into indian singing. Maybe, IR, is being true to the genre and tries to pack the pace and instruments into the song, to fit with the big screen.

Look at this IR interview during RPO symphony time period : http://rajasmusic.wordpress.com/2013/12/11/a-symphony-of-success-ilaiyaraaja-interview-in-1993/

Q: Does the Carnatic base help you in your chosen field?

Carnatic music and Western classical music are two different cultures, though the sounds are the same. The difference between the two systems is: one is like living with the people and the other like living alone. Carnatic music is like living in solitude and doing meditation like our sages. Western music needs harmony, counterpoints and many accompaniments. It is like living with people.

BTW, I came to this thread to post the nice experience of a recent visit to a hamlet in TN where loudspeakers were blasting their preferred numbers for a marriage function...

Except the "Adiyila sEthi solli" by Deva, all the other songs that got blasted out were IR-folk of 80's, leading me to conclude that such numbers continue to thrill the TN villagers...(Interestingly, the audio fellow also played "Asaiyila pAththi katti" within minutes after playing that KSC number by Deva )

It was pullarips to hear 'andha nelAvaththAn' alone, with no other MM songs on that loudspeaker-cast!

@app - welcome back. Hope you had a good vacation. I was out sick for a while and watched all the recorded Super Singer sessions. One thing I noticed - people sing full songs of Rahman, but when it comes to those short 1-minute challenges it is always (or atleast 90%) IR songs. Does that say something about his songs ?

nanRi kiru - yes, I had a lot of fun during the trip!

Reg. ARR not referring to rAsA in SS4, look at this interview to Bollywood hungama:
http://indianewsbreak.com/23180/uncategorized/a-r-rahman-turns-48

Rahman earnestly desires new generations of musicians to find their bearings. “I want to teach young musicians how to play within an orchestra. As things stand if I want to record orchestral music I’ve to go to Prague. If Ilaiyaraja wants to record an epic score he goes to Budapest. Why can’t we do it right here in our own country? I want to build a repertoire of musicians who can play western instruments as expertly as the sitar or tabla. Our talented young musicians who want to learn western classical music have to head for London. I want to give a certain legitimacy to western classical music in our country. You see, Indian classical music has room for unlimited improvisation and spontaneity. A classical recital requires far more formal discipline. And the whole orchestra brings one emotion into play throughout a recital. We don’t have that discipline in our country. It used to be there. But now the younger generation is more enthused by other forms of western music like dance and hip-hop. I want to inculcate that sense of discipline required for western classical music. Today a keyboard player gets tons of money whereas a violinist gets a pittance. I want the orchestra player to be proud of what he does. For that the violinist or the flautist has to be a complete techno-savvy musician.”

It is better that he didn't say anything.  Those SS people are scandal-minded, remember Gopi repeatedly probing Vairam to get him to say something nasty even as the latter tried to be cordial.  If ARR had said anything at all about his experience with IR, they would have jumped on the opportunity to extract juicy gossip.

Don't know about the reliability of this transcript of an Ilayaraja interview in the Sa Re Ga Ma Pa show (ostensibly in promotion of Cheeni Kum) but a rare quote from IR on ARR.  Says, " Rahman is doing good work - but he has been made to do a lot of things that give people a wrong impression of his music."

http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=350846

More detailed excerpt here:

http://www.india-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=350497&TPN=2

Thanks CK for sharing the IR interview, haven't come across this one before. Very interesting read and the responses are as direct as any other interview from IR. His response to the ARR question is probably the only one I have come across. He does acknowledge that he was not ARR's teacher in the classical sense and that's something that matches with ARR's recent & earlier interviews where he never mentions IR as his guru in the musical sense.

Yeah, he pointed to Anand Milind about as directly as he could have within the boundaries of courtesy.   

Despite having access to private vehicles, during my recent trip to TN, I was insistent to myself that there had to be at least one travel on bus

Also, my preference was to do it alone, if possible

Looks like it wasn't going to happen - because of the very short duration & having to meet literally 100's of people who were missing me for years.

Then I got that opportunity to do a Dindigul to Trichy (when one of the trips got us delayed beyond expectation and I could push my bro to drive away without me)  

I got into the bus, kept the bags in place and was looking around if they will play TFM or not - there was no sign of speakers and stuff like that

As always, my cousin (who is known to those who read the SPB-IR thread) came to rescue by a phone call...(to be contd.)