Manadhil oru paattu - Song of the moment - Vol 1

Famous song from tfmpage days (got glowing reviews from the likes of D Srikanth):

niRam piriththuppArththEn (TIME)



I remember reading from the DF those days that this song wasn't on screen. Looks like they've edited off only from 2nd interlude onwards.

That is definitely a crime - more so considering the director was KV's assistant in sAgara sangamam project

Let me add the link to the reviews of Srikanth & Murali Shankar :
http://tfmpage.com/forum/6719.ir_reviews.html

Srikanth D wrote:
6. Neram pirthu; I would say this the best song from raja in past 5 years. Simply a great score, I love playing it on the keyboard each and every part, I enjoying it every time I play it. I posted this some time ago, the songs moves like a feature that falls from a height, we do not know which direction it will move next, so smooth, reminds of old MSV's song from poikal kudurai. Msv's song did not have so much chromatic scaling, this has many parts in chromatic scale. Oboe, cello, double bass, violas, violins, piano --- every classical instrument we know, (I heard even French horn and brass) has a part in this song, and basically set in G, moves around wonderfully, Sujatha renders it with a great feel. (9.5/10)

MS wrote:
Niram piriththu:(sujaatha)

Oh Man!!!Greatness manifested in just one song in the album !!! If we replace Sujaatha's voice with a set of high pitched violins, we are getting a symphony class music !!! the whole song has been enriched with violins and bells. Think of the beat "aasai adigam vachchu" at the pace of " veNNilaa veNNilaa veNNilaavE vandhadhEy mudhal kaadhal" with a tune totally unheard from IR till this day !! This is the BEST of IR I have heard oflate after "Ponveyilile" of "yaathramozhi". A must in the personal favourites !!

indha Srikanth D'ndradhu Deva magarungaLA? Enna oru rasana?! Yes, I mean Hey Ram. Yes, I mean calling Isaiyil Thodangudhamma as recycled. And yes, I mean getting the raga partially wrong (has Saranga Tharangini too and in those places, it is not Hamsanadham).

If one classifies the entire song as recycle/rehash based on just the first line similarity, it gets onto me. We have five minutes of the song and the first line is hardly 5-6 seconds and by doing so, we tend to put the whole song and the music director's effort to shame (who ever it is). I am never a fan of these cliched comments.

Drunkenmunk wrote:indha Srikanth D'ndradhu Deva magarungaLA?

illeenga.

He was a regular at TFMpage discussions. USA based composer, now running his own studio it seems :
http://www.srikanthd.com/

His review for TbI was glowing and he also had a discussion with Sujatha on TbI...(two blog posts in the link below)
http://srikanthd.wordpress.com/?s=thiruvasagam

V_Sji,
As mentioned in twitter, he was strongly pro-MSV & pro-ARR. Used to selectively praise IR songs (older ones, Bharathi, TIME and such ones) but always had tons of arguments with IRFs...

Also, he was a regular at dhool.com's initial days (when its founders fought with RR of hub and went away), then was blogging regulary.

Looks like now he has stopped all such 'vetti' activities and is busy with business, finally

Thanks a lot App ji for all the details about Srikanth. Excellent review and I really liked when he said this is not an album and 'A Classical Adventure'. 

Discussion with Sujatha is very interesting. He had very valid concerns.

Mr. Sujatha felt that few people in crowd did not know the actual value for Ilayaraja. Like every other film music album they still keep saying to him “this album would be a hit”.

 This was expected and is still happening.

He says though will be pleasurable to listen to this in your Car, this CD requires a preset calm mood and some basic knowledge in Tamil literature. Once these 2 criteria are met, the album would take you to new listening pleasures. This would also encourage common man to read about Tamil Literature.

This inspires me to learn "basic" tamil literature. Definitely without appreciating the verses, it would not be a complete listening experience.

Drunkenmunk wrote:indha Srikanth D'ndradhu Deva magarungaLA? Enna oru rasana?! Yes, I mean Hey Ram. Yes, I mean calling Isaiyil Thodangudhamma as recycled. And yes, I mean getting the raga partially wrong (has Saranga Tharangini too and in those places, it is not Hamsanadham).

I dont think you would have identified saranga tharangini in those days either , right? ippO dhAnE adhu paththi sila pEru ezhudha pOyi namakku theriyin?

Let's not classify Srikanth with IR haters. He was provocative, and deliberately so, because IR fans of those times a good number of them behaved like ARR fans and youth MD fans of today. Srikanth was primarily an IR fan who was upset with this, and hence, deliberately was provocative.

He has immense knowledge of music and is a known name in US circles of those times. Achamundu director Arun's AsthAna short film MD was Srikanth. You must try to meet him, munk. You'll get a lot of info and knowledge.

Coming to his likes, his and vijayr's preferences ended up being skewed by the vocal IR fans and they ended up not paying attention closely to IR as they would have if they didnt have the urge to insult the ignorant but vociferous IR fans of those days. 

We still have some of our own side fans who just punch above their weight, writing stuff that they probably don't know about, and making outrageous claims in musical terms. Thats an occupational hazard.
Under such circumstances, I'd rather not diss Srikanth, the likes of whom enriched internet tamil film music discussions permanently , and have sadly, withdrawn to their shell now

plum wrote:

Drunkenmunk wrote:indha Srikanth D'ndradhu Deva magarungaLA? Enna oru rasana?! Yes, I mean Hey Ram. Yes, I mean calling Isaiyil Thodangudhamma as recycled. And yes, I mean getting the raga partially wrong (has Saranga Tharangini too and in those places, it is not Hamsanadham).

I dont think you would have identified saranga tharangini in those days either , right? ippO dhAnE adhu paththi sila pEru ezhudha pOyi namakku theriyin?

Let's not classify Srikanth with IR haters. He was provocative, and deliberately so, because IR fans of those times a good number of them behaved like ARR fans and youth MD fans of today. Srikanth was primarily an IR fan who was upset with this, and hence, deliberately was provocative.

He has immense knowledge of music and is a known name in US circles of those times. Achamundu director Arun's AsthAna short film MD was Srikanth. You must try to meet him, munk. You'll get a lot of info and knowledge.

Coming to his likes, his and vijayr's preferences ended up being skewed by the vocal IR fans and they ended up not paying attention closely to IR as they would have if they didnt have the urge to insult the ignorant but vociferous IR fans of those days. 

We still have some of our own side fans who just punch above their weight, writing stuff that they probably don't know about, and making outrageous claims in musical terms. Thats an occupational hazard.
Under such circumstances, I'd rather not diss Srikanth, the likes of whom enriched internet tamil film music discussions permanently , and have sadly, withdrawn to their shell now

Point taken sir. app andha links kudukka pOi, konjam hindsight la embarrassment aaiduchu  His take on Thiruvasagam was good. Your point on the occupational hazard is spot on and the fact that he is an MD makes him much more eligible to do what he did than me.

Plum,

Unfortunately that is the true state of internet. You can take one statement, make it popular without giving context and thus ending up praising or dissing a poster. Was talking with an ex-hubber recently and he was alluding to Milliblog's post in facebook wherein he confused Manivannan with Illayaraja. He did clarify and apologize later but my friend was saying that someone can pull that post alone and make it look as if it is true. You never know what you said will be quoted and when it will be quoted completely out of context. The same way when someone reads that 'isaiyil thodangudhamma' was rated 5/10, he/she is going to be shocked and will call in question the judgement of the reviewer!!! Unfortunately internet records us for posterity  

I agree with you about Srikanth and I have heard his CDs. Infact his close friend and collaborator, Shankar, is also a good friend of mine. I understand why Srikanth would have been pissed those days since I used to follow some of the arguments in the forum. I cannot understand vijayr's case though. Vociferous Raja fans had long gone and yet, inspite of all great music Raja generates, he refuses to acknowledge anything good of Raja. (You know about V_S and my tiff with him in BR's blog. Anyway, that is a different matter.)

Not in particular about Srikanth, but if you see the tone of many posts during those times, you can come to one conclusion. After Rahman's resounding success, the infallible image of Raja was gone. Hence you can start seeing comments wherein the poster's feel that they know more music than Raja and lot of suggestions would be thrown around: why use synthesizer here, why use tabla, this interlude is too simple, why use this singer etc. You find this in many reviews. On one hand, people would have got pissed with Raja fans and would have wanted to be provocative. On the other hand, some genuinely felt Raja has lost his composition skills and that they understood what he did very well and they were in a position to pass judgement on Raja's music. After all he was now past his prime. Srikanth, being a MD himself, probably got out of that position very fast. Others stayed there and still sit on a high perch when it comes to Raja. (How they deal with other MDs is a different case and not germane to this discussion.)

One thing I may not understand in my lifetime is how one can lose their own objective analysis/review/take on music and the composer just because of some fans who didn't agree with them.

Maybe I also was one of those people who annoyed the likes of Srikanth and Udhaya those days.. I was a bit un-appreciative of Rahman :-) (even though an appreciative post of mine on Rahman annoyed my IR friends circle) and they would ask if you think it is so simple why not other MD's replicate Rahman's success. Slowly, I learnt some fundamentals from these folks and rjay even used to give me some of his tracks to me to mix using ntrack, so that I learn some sound engineering. I even used to have phone conversations with Srikanth later on.
Few things, they said, that I still remember - Udhaya - Raja's sandham's have become predictable; Srikanth - IR leaves the sound spectrum emptry; Raja continues with the same rhythm throughout, if it had been Rahman, he would have given a variation. Srikanth - also was of the opinion - Raja was making tunes starting from chords, so that was not a real tune at all (like that of MSV's - he better sit and create the tune on his harmonium and not right it). If I know the pallavi, I can tell how the charanam would sound like. But the bass guy was always appreciative of IR (forget his name now). And some guy said, IRs songs does not have enough chord progressions (vs hindi songs) and aruLaracan, used to wonder whether it is possible to add chords after a tune is made (not sure, who to believe at times, was my quandary then). 
I will leave it upto you guys to draw your own conclusions now, but one or way other these gentlemen inspired me to dive deep into music, especially IR's music. So I am still thankful to them, even if they were mean to me at times :-) (especially Udhaya).

kiru,
Your post directly correlate with Sureshji's post.

kiru wrote:Raja was making tunes starting from chords, so that was not a real tune at all (like that of MSV's - he better sit and create the tune on his harmonium and not right it). If I know the pallavi, I can tell how the charanam would sound like.

Raaga_Suresh wrote:Hence you can start seeing comments wherein the poster's feel that they know more music than Raja and lot of suggestions would be thrown around: why use synthesizer here, why use tabla, this interlude is too simple, why use this singer etc. You find this in many reviews.

Now I understand better.  From those reviews (of that time) I see one thing clear, that there was an obvious comparison with Rahman's work in every Raja's works and they wanted Raja to do the same as Rahman. Thereby they almost lost their objectivity in their reviews. That's what I referred to as Rahman effect in those reviews.

Er..I was not part of those discussions back then, so i wouldn't know, but some of these grouses strike me as simply absurd. I am not talking about any person in general, but the points raised.

If I know the pallavi, I can tell how the charanam would sound like.

Really? I mean seriously? A guy who can predict the charanam or interludes based on the pallavi must himself be a genius. I don't even need to give any examples.

And some guy said, IRs songs does not have enough chord progressions (vs hindi songs)

What??  

Raja was making tunes starting from chords, so that was not a real tune at all 

According to my understanding, Raja first composes the tune and only after the director 'approves' of it/likes it does he write the notation, which is when he does the chords and arrangements.

I mean, I don't know if I completely miss the context or whatever but the above three charges are just preposterous.

Even if he did write a composition chords-up (and I too doubt he does that), there is nothing 'un-real' or 'inferior' or 'illegitimate' about it.  It is the norm in Western music and I am surprised that a composer with a USA background would have actually said that.  IR can write chords to match or surpass Stevie Wonder or Steely Dan, not just any chords.  But since I don't know the context, I would like to give him the benefit of doubt and not judge his opinion.

No sense getting back into a Raja - Rahman debate now. As fring says some of the statements made earlier are ludicrous and we know. Lets leave it there. And as ck mentions Raja does create some amazing and very original chord progression and so we leave that issue alone as well.

In my 90s series, I had touched a bit on this topic. The 'Rahman effect' as V_S calls it made people lose their sense of balance. We must give credit to Rahman for that. Since Rahman sounded 'new' and Raja sounded 'old', people were upset when Raja did not change and become like Rahman. Instead he seemed to go his own old way. Instead of trying to hear the musicality in Raja's songs, many started hearing the 'tiredness' in Raja's music and started analyzing why the songs have now become mediocre and why he was past his prime etc. 

It takes youngsters like fring, SKR, DM et al to give a different perspective for they approach Raja differently. They come to him from Rahman. After having exhausted most of what Rahman has to offer they come to Raja and easily grasp the musicality with fresh eyes. We saw those songs through a different screen and these folks see through a different screen. Hence they are surprised by the debates of the past. Theirs is probably the view which tells us that Raja's music will last for a long time to come, for unlike us, they don't cling to Raja for nostalgia sake. Rather it is his amazing music which draws them. And it will be his music which will draw the later generations as well. So guys, don't worry how the old men fought. Just go on enjoying the music

^^^  That absolutely applies to my experience.  Even though Singaravelan was the first soundtrack I have vivid memories of, I was first an ARR fan and only began to get into IR gradually from around 2000 onwards.  2000/01 marks the last time I was truly fascinated by an ARR soundtrack - Alai Payuthe.  I have since then liked some of his OSTs like Endhiran or RDB to some extent but never again felt like it would be an indispensable part of my collection.  It's mainly that he is on an ambient journey.  He's always been into ambient music and gradually the rhythmic excitement of his music has ebbed and the ambient part is dominating more.   I don't really like ambient music unless it's super ambitious and complex, and def not in pop-length tracks.  Maybe someday I will relate to the journey ARR is on but it's not happening in the near future.

CK,

Going by your writing I thought you were a veteran  I am glad I am wrong and good to see one more informed young person added to the club. 

You are right in that Rahman is more into ambient music and he is not too ambitious here.

@V_S - yes, I am corroborating many of Sureshs comments
@fring - looks like IR always played the tune out on the harmonium. Sometime he might have had the chords in mind before. But like ck says, I remember Anuradha Sriram or somebody else , not sure - "my husband brought this interesting chord when he came back from London and we proceeded to create a melody around it".  So people are pretty open about this approach.
@Suresh - I am amazed at these young guys ...I dont think it is a different perspective though they have -- being musically inclined they are just gravitating towards a composer with more and more content..I am sure they are listening to keerthanais and wcm compositions much more than a casual film music fan
@ck - I like your take on Rahman's musical path - "rhythm, ambience and now where do we go from here " - Rahman set out to change the "sound" of film music and he has achieved it (my suspicion is , he is also happy about this achievement) . IR, I dont think is convinced that he has achieved that much . .. There is lies a big difference between these men.
@Suresh - dont say "how the old men fought" ..when we fought we were young :-)

kiru wrote:Rahman set out to change the "sound" of film music and he has achieved it (my suspicion is , he is also happy about this achievement) . IR, I dont think is convinced that he has achieved that much . .. There is lies a big difference between these men.

Wow! That's a beauty! I love the way you said it.

Raaga_Suresh wrote:CK,

Going by your writing I thought you were a veteran  I am glad I am wrong and good to see one more informed young person added to the club. 

    "So should I laugh or cry".   I presume it is the language and that is a byproduct of the legalistic requirements of my profession.  I can't resist it beyond a point.

kiru wrote:@ck - I like your take on Rahman's musical path - "rhythm, ambience and now where do we go from here " - Rahman set out to change the "sound" of film music and he has achieved it (my suspicion is , he is also happy about this achievement) . IR, I dont think is convinced that he has achieved that much . .. There is lies a big difference between these men.

I agree that ARR was very much focused on the sound and he did succeed in popularizing it.   And it was very fresh in the 90s, sounded a million times better than Bollywood at that time so full credit to him for that.  

I don't think IR is very much interested in just the sound of it at all, he probably feels expression emerges from the melody and harmony.  That way, he is probably more old school than even R D Burman, who was the original 'sound' composer.   Erm, at least RD did have songs with surprises like Tere Bina Jiya (which I am hoping is NOT a copy).   The main problem for me when I listen to say Innum Konjum Neram from Maryan is the melody doesn't excite me at all.  I don't feel challenged and it is also not so poignant that I would appreciate the simplicity.  I suppose I am expected to bask in the sound, the ambience but I somehow find that very difficult to do.  If I feel too challenged by a piece of music to make sense of it the first time, at least I can try again and again to tame it.  But when I feel bored, I am at a loss.

crimson king wrote:
I don't think IR is very much interested in just the sound of it at all, he probably feels expression emerges from the melody and harmony.  That way, he is probably more old school than even R D Burman, who was the original 'sound' composer.   Erm, at least RD did have songs with surprises like Tere Bina Jiya (which I am hoping is NOT a copy).   The main problem for me when I listen to say Innum Konjum Neram from Maryan is the melody doesn't excite me at all.  I don't feel challenged and it is also not so poignant that I would appreciate the simplicity.  I suppose I am expected to bask in the sound, the ambience but I somehow find that very difficult to do.  If I feel too challenged by a piece of music to make sense of it the first time, at least I can try again and again to tame it.  But when I feel bored, I am at a loss.

CK,

Agree with you fully here. Raja does not belong to the 'sound is ambiance' or 'sound is atmosphere' group. His philosophy, as you rightly point out, belongs amongst the classicists. He strongly believes that music should express some emotion and all techniques he uses are towards this end. I have a series posts lined up as 'Raja's Philosophy' wherein I want to discuss these aspects more deeply. I think lot of us, including I, did not understand this aspect properly when Rahman came on the scene and expected Raja to do lot more things with 'sound'. Atleast now people like me have realized what Raja's philosophy is.

Coming to the Maryan song I heard it only yesterday. Just before hearing it, I heard this song from a film called 'Kalyana Samayal Sadhan' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUg4PvMeZrg which is constructed in the same way that many modern melodies are constructed. After hearing this, the Maryan song did not sound all that different from any other song which happens nowadays. This was not the case when Rahman came on the scene. Those days his music sounded very different from that of others like Raja, Vidyasagar, Deva, Sirpi etc. Nowadays when I heard back to back modern songs in some channel, when a Rahman song happens between the songs of Yuvan, Harris, Vijay Antony, you don't feel it is too different. Other also have learnt the recording and 'sound' tricks very well. 

Raja, ofcouse, always sounds different

ARR was also experimenting a lot more at that time, bolder and more intense.  I mean, not experimenting with just sounds but different musical approaches.  If you take Ennai Kanavilaye Nettrodu (one of my absolute favourites of ARR), there are actually lots of notes packed into limited spaces just like IR but he internalised that approach into his own style.   He doesn't seem to write those kind of songs anymore.   Even with that ambient approach, ARR used to write focused music with some amount of linearity from time to time in the 90s.  Now almost nothing he does has that focus or that passion.  It is all designed to sound very dreamy, lush, comforting and....*yawns*

Suresh, tell me about it. I can go on and on about the "debates" Srikanth and I have about music in general, leave alone ARR and IR. The thing is people do drift in and out of their likes and dislikes...and that's okay. Some others are staunch believers and that's okay too. Given that I'm a hardcore IR fan (but also a music fan) and Srikanth really likes ARR (with also a profound respect for Raja's genius), our discussions get "interesting". There are other reasons for this as well. For example, ARR has allowed us to use his studio in India for certain projects besides putting us in touch with sound engineers, instrumentalists etc. We had Karthik, Tippu and GVP sing for us at various times. So, it doesn't always have to be about composing skills alone. In my opinion, the two (ARR and IR) are generations apart in how they operate, neither of which is wrong. It's just each others choice. And if you ask me, I have my favorite and that's my choice!  

Again to repeat what some others said...sure, there are provocative personalities when we discuss music but at least if they know their stuff and are contributing in some way to a discussion, it is better than to suffer people who have no clue. The only thing is to keep your restraint and not go vitriolic because that serves no purpose.

As a digression, I wanted to say couple of things. I just joined this forum (Suresh, why didn't you tell me about this earlier...I kept waiting on the Hub for you guys to show up!!). I know my buddy plum is not too impressed with "Adichu Pidichu" from Nandhavana Theru, but man, what tightness in that composition. I listen to it as I drive in to work most days and it gives me energy, puts me in the right mood to tackle issues at work! It is such a fast paced song but with such tight orchestration. There's so much happening underneath in that song.

Also, this morning I briefly listened to "Enakkuthan" from Velaikkaran after a very long time and was struck by everything that was happening in that song. Of course, Sasirakha's singing was a big downer, very flat and monotonous but I thought the charanam background orchestration was interesting. I need to listen to it more.

Another track I've been spending some time is "Azhagu Aayiram" from Ullasa Paravaigal...the mamma mia usage for the anu pallavi and charanam ends is actually cool considering that ABBA was a rage around that time.

Welcome Shank, to the forum!

'enakkuththAn' is a big fav, the end of anupallavi is simply awesome! (Some similarity with 'kAdhal rAgamum kanniththamizhum onRu sErndhadhu pOl')

Raaga_Suresh wrote: You never know what you said will be quoted and when it will be quoted completely out of context.

My latest phobia is Chokkan's reply tweet to my tweet of the "review link"

What?! தேவா மகர் அம்மாம்பெரிய தில்லாலங்கடியா?

Though I've clarified by reply tweet to him & also to @thachimammu, since Chokkan is a famous celebrity and his tweet is read by many (who will  never get to see my reply / clarification), his tweet could in the future be misinterpreted on the web

Imagine blog posts like the one below :

காப்பித்தென்றல் தேவா மகன் (இவரும் ஒரு மினி காப்பித்தென்றல்) இளையராஜா காப்பி அடித்ததாக செய்த கேலி!

அதுவும் எந்தப்பாட்டு? "இசையில் தொடங்குதம்மா"!

வீணைக்கு வீணைக்குஞ்சு என்ற பாடலின் காப்பி தான் இது என்று ஸ்ரீகாந்த் தேவா கேலி செய்து இன்டர்நெட்டில் விமரிசனம் எழுதி இருக்கிறார்! சிறுகதை ஆசிரியர் சொக்கன் இவர் சொன்னதைப்பார்த்து அதிர்ந்து போய் ட்வீட்டி இருந்தார்!

தேவா மகனுக்கு கமலை விட இசை ஞானம் அதிகமாம்! இன்டர்நெட்டில் விமரிசனம்!
எழுத்தாளர் சொக்கன் சமீபத்தில் ட்விட்டரில் அதிர்ச்சியான ஒரு தகவல் கொடுத்திருந்தார்.

அது என்ன தெரியுமா?

ஹே ராம் படத்துக்கு ஸ்ரீகாந்த் தேவா (தேனிசைத்தென்றல் தேவாவின் மகன், டபுள்ஸ் பட இசை அமைப்பாளர்) விமரிசனம் செய்து கொடுத்த மார்க்குகள்:

நீ பார்த்த பார்வைக்கொரு நன்றி : 5 / 10
இசையில் தொடங்குதம்மா : 5 / 10
ராமன் ஆனாலும் : 2 / 10

கமல் வியந்து பலமுறை பாராட்டிய பாடல்களுக்கே இவ்வளவு தான் மார்க்! தேவா மகன் பெரிய தில்லாலங்கடி தான்!

Far-fetched but very much possible, considering how much Chokkan is connected

(சொக்கன் சொன்னார்னு கார்க்கி வைரமுத்து - கூகிள் கூகிள் பாட்டு எழுதின "கவிஞர்" - என்னை கொஞ்ச நாள் ட்விட்டரில் ஃபாலோ  பண்ணினார்னா பாத்துக்கங்கோ, அவ்வளவு பிரபலம்)

If sriks the original reviewer reads these posts, I'm sure he'll faint