Manadhil oru paattu - Song of the moment - Vol 1

"Please don't expect neutrals, much less the gumbal, to show that much patience"


That's a bit funny because the so-called neutrals have zero currency with me. Hardly looking to cry on their shoulders, am I?"

plum: Unhappy is too strong a word. More of an irritant, would rather not have these long and tiresome arguments, that's all. In Bhava's case, no propaganda is needed for the puthrapasam angle. When it comes to famous personalities the Caesar's wife principle applies. So unless bhava was phenomenal as a singer, father and daughter were bound to get flak. Sadly bhava is pitchy to an unforgivable extent. I have to commend you for spiritedly defending raja on the puthrapasam angle per se (and not restricted to the myriad connotations of unique). I am too overpowered by annoyance at the way she murdered gems like oliyilae to bother. Ivallelam paada vaccha appiram yenna saiya.

Obviously, rants are annoying for non-involved
 Saying that. let me dispute the statement that I am defending IR's puthra paasam.
This is not true.

In fact, this is how it works:
* IR doesn't praise his offspring for things he doesn't believe they have . Can we agree on it? Vide, his endorsement of Karthik, although very few agree with it, and non-endorsement of Yuvan. 
* Bhava gets a few chances but not really a bucketload. He doesnt praise her as a good singer, even. I think we have a clue why she gets even those minimal songs, in that "unique" answer - namely...
* ...he seems to believe that her voice is unique - again without any positive connotation - which justifies the choice in a few songs just as Jency got a few songs in early 80s. Bhave gets even less % so presumably, IR rates her even less than Jency
* Given all this, the puthrapasam angle doesnt hold up. Puthrapaasam is when you praise a offspring beyond what you think they are. But there is no such thing here. It seems like he rates her voice better than you and I do, but only just about. And it reflects in miniscule chances to Bhava that he gives. Very consistent.

OTOH, we want to jump to sky that that is proof of puthrapaasam because Bhava deserves ZERO chances in IFM in her lifetime. Yes, you may believe so but I rather see IR thinks she deserves 1 odd song in six months or so. And he doesnt give her anything beyond that. A puthrapaasam composer would have praised her voice and given her more chances.

As to HOW THE HELL CAN IR BELIEVE THAT HER VOICE IS UNIQUE AND HOW THE HELL CAN HE GIVEN ONE SINGLE CHANCE TO BHAVA WHEN YOU AND I CAN CLEARLY SEE THAT SHE DOESNT DESERVE EVEN ONE SINGLE CHANCE, well, thats your opinion.

To me it seems he is giving her chance as per his opinion of her- namely she deserves a small number of chances is what he seeems to think based on her unique voice, that he believes she has - , and that opinion differs from your opinion. Is that enough for you to conclude that IR KNOWS VERY WELL THAT BHAVAS VOICE IS NOT UNIQUE AND IS CRAP BUT JUST BECAUSE OF PUTHRAPAASAM HE IS SAYING IT IS UNIQUE AND HE IS GIVING CHANCES?

Again, I am not talking about establishing things in black and white. I am talking about perceptions, ref Caesar's wife. Unless the protege is an amazing talent, father exposes himself to criticism over nepotism. I am not a pro, but I have sung on stage and I can vouch that applying the word amazing to bhava's singing would be akin to describing Alaska as a tropical region. We don't know for a fact what is the maestro's intent. You may argue that it MAY not be nepotism but you cannot prove either that it is not nepotism at all. And my point is simply that unlike you, who choose to patiently defend him, I prefer not to counter those claims because by giving so many chances to such a mediocre singer he has sadly exposed himself to that allegation. I am not going to presume that people who accuse him of puthrapasam have an agenda because it is a reasonable inference. Yes that is my carefully considered opinion and I am not going to be persuaded I am wrong. It is not a binary right or wrong issue, it's a grey area.

had she sung one or two songs only, it would be another matter. But Raja has persisted with her over several films and she has consistently fared badly.

Another pedant here , and I disagree with the Caesar's wife analogy. IR is not a public servant or politician. He is not spending public money. He is not a company CEO practicing plain nepotism by promoting incompetent nincompoops over worthier talents . He is not answerable to the public for any choices he might make, including in promoting Bhava or Yuvan. He is answerable only to the producer/director or record labels and if any of them has gone public and claimed that despite their persistent remonstrations to the contrary, IR kept insisting on repeatedly using Bhava which resulted in movies/albums flopping and them incurring significant losses, that would be a point worth pondering. However having said that, I am not yet ready to completely rule out the Puthrapasam angle despite Plum's convincing arguments . I feel, like I stated earlier, that other factors like budget also played a role.


P.S: And having expressed my uncomfortableness (is that a word) with the Caesar's wife analogy, let me go further and say that I don't consider Puthrapaasam to be the unforgivable sin that some of his detractors do. I think we all agree that it is ridiculous to expect artists to be meek and docile, humbler than a blade of grass blah blah. I ask - why have this no less ridiculous expectation that they should be free of other equally banal, commonplace human failings like the occasional parental indulgence, envy, greed "oLarals" etc. My point is purely academic, i.e I am not saying (or rather don't care) if IR possesses or exhibits or any of these vices to any degree. I wouldn't know in any case. But I say - even if he did, so what? As long as his actions don't affect the common man, why do we care?

I agree, he is definitely not accountable to anybody for choosing bhava. If producers have a problem, they won't approach him, matter ends. I am only using caesar's wife analogy to get to the root of the perceptions. When father promotes daughter, this is bound to happen. I don't have a big issue with his puthrapasam because as a rasigan my interest is limited to his music, not his character. But I just don't think claims of puthrapasam are so unfounded as plum suggests. With Yuvan I am sure it is more about using his youthu image, even arr gave him a song in maryan, right?

As to whether or not people should comment on it, well a song like thendral varum vazhiye could have been a hit without that ak 47 apaswaram assault. So to that extent listeners may vent their disappointment if they wish to. When it comes to shaji writer type "none more despicable" rants, I just yawn. Nothing to see, move on.

crimson king wrote:I agree, he is definitely not accountable to anybody for choosing bhava. If producers have a problem, they won't approach him, matter ends. I am only using caesar's wife analogy to get to the root of the perceptions. When father promotes daughter, this is bound to happen. I don't have a big issue with his puthrapasam because as a rasigan my interest is limited to his music, not his character. But I just don't think claims of puthrapasam are so unfounded as plum suggests. With Yuvan I am sure it is more about using his youthu image, even arr gave him a song in maryan, right?

Nether am I for that matter. But I think these claims are worth refuting simply because they transform into common perceptions at an alarming speed in TN, aided no doubt by the weekly Olarals by karuthukorangugaL (to use Plum's own coinage) like Gnani, Charu Niveditha  in weekly magazines like Kumudham and AV. One of my chitappas who is in his 40s, and spends the entire weekend poring over these trashy tabloids masquerading as news magazines in TN, AND is a huge IR fan, is still convinced that IR is incorrigibly arrogant, never praises anyone, only olarifies (just like Kamal), has nepotistic tendencies..., simply because he regularly reads Gnaani's olarals and the fellow happens to write some sensible stuff now and then, so he has some ill deserved credibility attached to his name. I don't know to what extent you read tamil magazines or blogs. The sheer number of pages spent on character assassination, based simply on Raja's lifestyle choices and misinterpretations of his statements will make your head spin. It is much much more than what you will come across in the English part of the internet. "Asaivam uNbavargaLai madhikkAdhavar" declares Amudhavan, grandly, in one of his blog entries as he meticulously lists out IR's character flaws, point by point. Yeah right, that's why IR respects and loves working with Laszlo Kovacs, Attilo Laszlo etc who no doubt survive daily on a diet of saambar saadham and rasam saadham...

crimson king wrote:As to whether or not people should comment on it, well a song like thendral varum vazhiye could have been a hit without that ak 47 apaswaram assault. So to that extent listeners may vent their disappointment if they wish to. When it comes to shaji writer type "none more despicable" rants, I just yawn. Nothing to see, move on.

Err...I feel the same, so hard to disagree on that  

while I agree that there is too much character assassination of IR, I maintain that indiscriminately attacking opinions will only reduce our credibility. Further it is better to logically question the factual basis of these claims than to question their motives. It's one thing if the idea of ranting is just to vent and another if it is intended to educate and inform.

crimson king wrote:When it comes to shaji writer type "none more despicable" rants, I just yawn. Nothing to see, move on.

If I am not mistaken, Shaji acted in OAK (the cop). Wondering if he had a change of heart   .

crimson king wrote:while I agree that there is too much character assassination of IR, I maintain that indiscriminately attacking opinions will only reduce our credibility. Further it is better to logically question the factual basis of these claims than to question their motives. It's one thing if the idea of ranting is just to vent and another if it is intended to educate and inform.

That might be true. But sometimes cynicism and satire works better - if it doesn't go over "their" heads that is. Plus, it is fun  

crimson king wrote: I am not going to be persuaded I am wrong. It is not a binary right or wrong issue, it's a grey area.

This is the nub. You dont want to be persuaded. If you fail to see how he has treated her, what praise he has actually given her, the puthrapaasam claim doesn't hold. Only the agenda-based and the superficial watchers will claim - do you want to be one of the latter group?

Yes, people form wrong perceptions but isnt it our  duty to challenge such simplistic notions? Cant we raise our collective intellectual ability? If oyu actually see it but dont want to join the intellectual side but join the plebians and justify thheir poor interpretive skills, you are not doing justice

crimson king wrote:had she sung one or two songs only, it would be another matter. But Raja has persisted with her over several films and she has consistently fared badly.

How many? What is her % of songs received versus say Jency during Jency's time?

crimson king wrote:had she sung one or two songs only, it would be another matter. But Raja has persisted with her over several films and she has consistently fared badly.

How many? What is her % of songs received versus say Jency during Jency's time?
Also, beyond "I dont like her voice" tell me what is wrong with nanu neetho? mayil pola? it fit in the unsophisticated, untrained, innocent tribal girl singing a song of nature to the T. There are examples of where Bhava failed misearbly but there is a presumption that if bhava sang it, it is inappropriate and technically screwed up which is a lazy assumption

crimson king wrote:while I agree that there is too much character assassination of IR, I maintain that indiscriminately attacking opinions will only reduce our credibility. Further it is better to logically question the factual basis of these claims than to question their motives. It's one thing if the idea of ranting is just to vent and another if it is intended to educate and inform.

I am talking to only non-kartuththukorangugaL in this thread - this is our area where we dont have any of them and to the besto of my knowledge, none of my rants are abusive or emotionally charged - I thought I was presenting you pure logic even discarding human perception angle.

I'll tell you the problem with merely being logical - I can calmly ask you have you analysed the % of songs Bhava has received vs % of songs received by Jency and you'll answer patiently. I can ask you have you seen Raja praising Yuvan/Bhava as good, let alone great and you'll answer patiently but the kartuthukorangugaL otoh have the presumotion to assume we are sycophants and they are the objective ones. Why shouldnt I have contempt for them?

oh dear, I am really at the end of my tether now. Er, no, I am nor interested because I do not like opinions being imposed this way on me. You are not engaging with my arguments, rather you want to somehow force yours down my throat. Your lofty words about interpretation skills seem ill chosen in the face of bhava's embarrassing intonation issues. If you want to somehow persuade the world that there is not an iota of nepotism in choosing bhava to sing and that the mere suggestion of it warrants a vicious counter attack based on elaborate conspiracy theories, then sorry, wrong number. And since you asked, oh please go ahead and lump me in any club of your choice if that makes you feel better. I am neither George bush nor right wing so don't try with us or against us tactics with me. My independence is sacrosanct above all to me. Now, either you drop the pitch of your rhetoric to a saner level or I permanently stop engaging with you on such discussions. Over and out.

" you want to somehow persuade the world that there is not an iota of nepotism in choosing bhava to sing and that the mere suggestion of it warrants a vicious counter attack based on elaborate conspiracy theories, '


Er..this is inaccurate, to say the least. When did I accuse you of this?

crimson king wrote:oh dear, I am really at the end of my tether now. Er, no, I am nor interested because I do not like opinions being imposed this way on me. You are not engaging with my arguments, rather you want to somehow force yours down my throat. Your lofty words about interpretation skills seem ill chosen in the face of bhava's embarrassing intonation issues. If you want to somehow persuade the world that there is not an iota of nepotism in choosing bhava to sing and that the mere suggestion of it warrants a vicious counter attack based on elaborate conspiracy theories, then sorry, wrong number. And since you asked, oh please go ahead and lump me in any club of your choice if that makes you feel better. I am neither George bush nor right wing so don't try with us or against us tactics with me. My independence is sacrosanct above all to me. Now, either you drop the pitch of your rhetoric to a saner level or I permanently stop engaging with you on such discussions. Over and out.

Rhetoric? I am asking logical questions. YOu are the one siding with er "perception", "public" and dismissing logical and syntactical interpretations. 

It is not about imposing a thought it is about asking you to justify your point logically. When that is precisely what you are not doing, and I am doing, ho can you turn the tables and accuse me of rhetoric?

what are these references, variously, to maniacs, propaganda, plebeians, etc but rhetoric? Where do these even figure in a discussion that began with akarsh merely stating personal disappointment with raja giving songs to bhava? Oh no, you of your own volition shifted the debate to ground that you seem to enjoy immensely. And that, good sir, is what I find most annoying. That is neither logical nor necessary. Why can't we stick to discussing what we individually feel about bhava? Why use every conceivable opportunity to drag gumbal and karuthu kootam into the discussion so mr plum can vent his angst all over again? If there is logic in your words, it is presently too clouded by your propensity to rant and is lost on me.

you are the one who is continuing to use a throwaway line in the first post i made on this topic about detractors and using it to avoid all logical questions.
i am sorry - i dont let up on logic. Ball is in your court.

Lot of DMs asking me to stop this discussion. Will respect that. However, I need to say  a last word
* This discussion started off as kamal Aakarsh randomly sticking it to IR for puthrapaasam. Despite several counter facts, figures and logical arguments, neither Kamal nor Crimson have given up on their claim which is only based on "IR gave more than 1 song to Bhava, means he is puthrapaasam only. There is no possibility that he rates her voice as unique, jus tputhrapaasam making him say that". 
* Despite pointing out that Bhava got much less % than jency and mano, and probably rightly so since she is worse than both of them - which shows how precise Raja has been - no they cant handle logic. Just stick to puthrapaasam angle and call me as blind defender of IR
*(despite the fact that it is me who has been cold, dispassionate and logical in this argument and they are the ones who amde the emotional "no he is puthrapaasam only whatever you say" argument. 
I made just one dig at the detractors in my first post to Aakarsh and have clarified since that it was just a random rant juxtaposed to my reply to Aakarsh and not intended at him. Still, the only answer I get to my logical questions are "you are a ranter, you made a rant in ALL your posts"

I don't have any hate for either of them, or ego problem - simply, I am trying to state facts as it is knowing that it will alienate them . Still I am saying this only because this is distressingly how the humility debate played out in the past
* PPl accuse IR emotionally
* Any rational defence of IR is dismissed as blind 
* Then IR Fan is Rowdy is established

this may not have been Aakarsh/Crimson' s intention here but this is how it plays out.

By committing to clear facts, and mathematical logic, I alienate people. With my minuscule IQ(probably less than even crimson's or akarsh's) if I can do that, with his giant IQ, what would have IR done to people?

The only comparison here I am making is commitment to facts and logic.

Oh but of course you have an ego. You just demonstrated it by giving in to your need to have the last word in the argument. Yesterday I was about to write a long post using quotes from your own posts to show how you diverted the whole discussion but I respected the request I had received and decided to spare the thread of our verbal sparring. I politely conveyed the same to you without using the pms to resume the argument. It is unfortunate that you are unable to reciprocate. I am very sorry that I participated in this discussion and do not intend to discuss anything related to IR in future with you as I find it an extremely painful exercise.

That's a straw man. This i show people escape real logical discussions