Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 2

Chikamangaloora - 1st stanza - lady voice - Suvi suvi suvaali - 3 linesku varum chorus.

2nd stanza - velli moda panneera - 3 llinesku varum chorus... polyphonic a............

@V_S -- yes that is the word 'parallel' or for the software inclined 'concurrent'.
Lets take two songs which I think are different and maybe you guys can set my misconception right.
mugilO and oh Butterfly - I feel these two songs are different approaches to writing harmony for the main melody.
IR writes counterpoints in prelude and interlude. No big deal. Actually, whole lot of songs start with a counterpoint and then the voices join in harmony.
But mugiLO's pallavi is fully string harmonized, which goes contrapuntal at times (I think).
Oh butterfly, with the use of guitar vibes is squarely in "pure" harmony territory.
Even mugiLo charanams are not fully string harmonized. Some parts are piano back and then strings join.
Saw one youtube comment on mugilO - "too many notes packed in one song" !! isn't that right ?
I have not seen IR write this much harmony parts pre-NEPV.  This is very aggressive harmony writing.

Liril-ai ozhiththa rAsA pAttu

The Downfall
Subsequent to its launch, Liril held onto this communication and positioning for almost a decade, although with different models. The first signs of slowdown in sales were seen in 1987, along with the entry of new players like Cinthol in the freshness segment and the introduction of a flurry of new variants.

Liril was slow in reacting to these external changes and when it came out with new variants such as Liril Ice Cool Mint, Orange Fresh, Cologne and Rainfresh, it started to drift from its earlier ads by using different jingles and imagery.

The new variants did little to improve its market share. The nail in the coffin was when it tried to consciously shift its USP of coolness to hotness. The “Uff Yumma” ad was a far cry from the norm in many ways. The iconic “la-ra-la-la-la” tune was replaced by an Ilayaraja track and the innocence of the Liril girl was replaced with sensuality.

What was the IR song that Liril used?

IMO, Mugilo is just a very richly orchestrated song - more so than Butterfly. I wouldn't call it contrapuntal since I don't hear two distinct melodic lines persisting for a couple or more measures. It is quite imaginatively arranged and further, the absence of Indian instruments and the atypically slow melody accentuate the orchestral feel. OTOH,a  couple of songs which feature staggering contrapuntal basslines simmering under the main melody - Megam kottatum, Thumbi baa. Boopaalam isaikkum has piano arpeggios and bass guitar prominently accompanying the pallavi, but I am not sure if they can be called contrapuntal. Notes ezhudhi pArthu thaan definite'a sola mudiyum (and we need pros for that) whether they are "sufficiently melodically independent" which is the litmus test (and a pretty well defined one at that) for identifying counterpoints.

kiru wrote:@V_S -- yes that is the word 'parallel' or for the software inclined 'concurrent'.
Lets take two songs which I think are different and maybe you guys can set my misconception right.
mugilO and oh Butterfly - I feel these two songs are different approaches to writing harmony for the main melody.
IR writes counterpoints in prelude and interlude. No big deal. Actually, whole lot of songs start with a counterpoint and then the voices join in harmony.
But mugiLO's pallavi is fully string harmonized, which goes contrapuntal at times (I think).
Oh butterfly, with the use of guitar vibes is squarely in "pure" harmony territory.
Even mugiLo charanams are not fully string harmonized. Some parts are piano back and then strings join.
Saw one youtube comment on mugilO - "too many notes packed in one song" !! isn't that right ?
I have not seen IR write this much harmony parts pre-NEPV.  This is very aggressive harmony writing.

That's first and second iteration of pallavi.  Listen to the last pallavi, there are strings and flute and the strings pull in other directions, somewhat like the modulations in Ananda Raagam second interlude.  As a technique of writing harmony, I don't really see a significant difference between that and Mugilo.

crimson king wrote:..
Oh butterfly, with the use of guitar vibes is squarely in "pure" harmony territory.
...

That's first and second iteration of pallavi.  Listen to the last pallavi, there are strings and flute and the strings pull in other directions, somewhat like the modulations in Ananda Raagam second interlude.  As a technique of writing harmony, I don't really see a significant difference between that and Mugilo.

I agree almost 90% :-) ..but  there it is used 'additively'  - for that tension/relief at the end.. But using the continuous string harmony pallavi, I think he has made the strings 'integral' part of the tune. In the sense, if you remove the strings, the vocal part would not 'stand by itself'. (IR also mentioned he has used chromaticism in Oh Butterfly, he usually never talks about the techniques he uses..but this time he shared it)
@fring - yes ..yes.. I remember the litmus test definition. I am listening to these songs on spotify over and over again . I think IR usually gives the ending part of a line to instruments. I think in mugiLO he just extended the technique further.
I hope I am not boring you guys with some imagined non-sense because I am too impressed with this song. But I would be glad to listen to some examples of 'concurrent string harmony' with pallavi (Note, many songs have strings backing for the second half of a charanam .. almost like a formula.. but I think mugilO usage in pallavi is at a different level .. ok ok .. I will stop here)

I agreed earlier too about that 'dependency'. Just saying that by itself is not more Western than kodiyile or keeravani. But the melody of mugilo is not that indian while also not having that peppy youthu factor.

kiru wrote:But I would be glad to listen to some examples of 'concurrent string harmony' with pallavi (Note, many songs have strings backing for the second half of a charanam .. almost like a formula.. but I think mugilO usage in pallavi is at a different level .. ok ok .. I will stop here)

If you are specifically referring to concurrent string section harmony in pallavi, I have to give it more thought. But that is more to do with instrumentation than harmony per se. Meanwhile, what about Niram pirithu paarthen that has ambient rather than interactive strings in pallavi? Also Deva sangeetham (Guru). The first might serve to support your original claim that such "western based" songs are not so popular  .

There is a huge difference when we say Maestro's tune is not Indian, and it is not Indian for other music directors (for the same genre). Maestro never crosses that Indian boundary in main melody (main tune). Since he is at the boundary, we tend to classify that as non Indian, but he never crosses that boundary as his signature will be lost and he knows that. That's why I like him a lot, as he operates in that region brilliantly. There are many IR song which can be categorized under contemporary western, but we will never have that hangover that we have listened somewhere during 80s or 90s, but again the same is not true with others. That's the biggest problem with the next generation music directors. They freely cross that boundary (in tune and singing) without worrying about their stamp at all, there by losing our identity.

fring151 wrote:

kiru wrote:But I would be glad to listen to some examples of 'concurrent string harmony' with pallavi (Note, many songs have strings backing for the second half of a charanam .. almost like a formula.. but I think mugilO usage in pallavi is at a different level .. ok ok .. I will stop here)

If you are specifically referring to concurrent string section harmony in pallavi, I have to give it more thought. But that is more to do with instrumentation than harmony per se. Meanwhile, what about Niram pirithu paarthen that has ambient rather than interactive strings in pallavi? Also Deva sangeetham (Guru). The first might serve to support your original claim that such "western based" songs are not so popular  .

Yes.. yes.. it is the arrangement also .. the arrangement dictates the techniques too, I would guess. Yes, Niram piriththu is similar and the fact it did not become popular bugs me.. As CK dwells on the tune, the "indianness" of the strong 'main melody' in Deva sangeetham probably gave it a wider appeal. But I do agree with V_S IR's melodies have only subtle 'western' taste to them .. unlike other MDs who borrow 'lock, stock and barrel'.

BTW, let me know what you all think about this song - vis-a-vis mugilO - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NFV8dHrZYM (or the Sarah's cover - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln9TZTTWsck )

kiru wrote:Yes.. yes.. it is the arrangement also .. the arrangement dictates the techniques too, I would guess. Yes, Niram piriththu is similar and the fact it did not become popular bugs me.. As CK dwells on the tune, the "indianness" of the strong 'main melody' in Deva sangeetham probably gave it a wider appeal. But I do agree with V_S IR's melodies have only subtle 'western' taste to them .. unlike other MDs who borrow 'lock, stock and barrel'.

BTW, let me know what you all think about this song - vis-a-vis mugilO - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NFV8dHrZYM (or the Sarah's cover - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln9TZTTWsck )

Heard that song - pleasant, but predictable (and ambient strings) is what I would say. Mugilo has a key modulation from D minor in pallavi to C major in charanam. Also note unpredictable melody/chord change in charanam at:
 
Idhayathin araigalil pudhiya vaasam
manam enum vanagalil pudhiya 

[size=12.727272033691406]The F minor chord is "unexpected" at that juncture and changes the mood.[/size]

Re: melody, SPB's singing is quite opera like in Alaigale vaa, but it still works for me. Likewise for the interludes.

Actually there are quite a few songs where vocal melody does cross over into 100% western, e.g Kalvane, Rum pum pum, rojapoo adi vanthathu. But what IR doesn't do, except with Ramya, is to make the singers anglicize the words a la indha Arabic kadaloram. That's why some people drew parallels between sattru munbu and chandralekha, it's the pronunciation. But the notes are pure western in a fair few songs, kurangu kaiyil malai is another.

1. Edaya Bagilu (Kannada)
2. Alaigale Vaa Avarudan
3. Day by Day (Honest Raj)
4. Kurangu Kailyil Maalai (Mumbai Express)
5. Indha Ulagil (Madhu)

   All the above are songs where Raja plays outside of the 'Indian' music box.

   Why are none of these songs popular?

   BTW, I like all the above songs immensely.

Yes, those songs can arguably be classified as pure western. Nothing wrong in it because, clearly, in most of these songs, he has attempted something different even within the western framework. And they are more the occasional indulgence than the rule with his music. Plus no one can tell complain he hasn't explored Indian music enough   . It is the unoriginal asili pisilis and maalai nerams which constitute the bulk of the output of Sennai new age guys that are plain annoying.

kaaka kaaka karupu paaru , Minmini parvaigal - Julie Ganapathy.

fring151 wrote:

kiru wrote:Yes.. yes.. it is the arrangement also .. the arrangement dictates the techniques too, I would guess. Yes, Niram piriththu is similar and the fact it did not become popular bugs me.. As CK dwells on the tune, the "indianness" of the strong 'main melody' in Deva sangeetham probably gave it a wider appeal. But I do agree with V_S IR's melodies have only subtle 'western' taste to them .. unlike other MDs who borrow 'lock, stock and barrel'.

BTW, let me know what you all think about this song - vis-a-vis mugilO - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NFV8dHrZYM (or the Sarah's cover - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ln9TZTTWsck )

Heard that song - pleasant, but predictable (and ambient strings) is what I would say. Mugilo has a key modulation from D minor in pallavi to C major in charanam. Also note unpredictable melody/chord change in charanam at:
 
Idhayathin araigalil pudhiya vaasam
manam enum vanagalil pudhiya 

The F minor chord is "unexpected" at that juncture and changes the mood.

Right .. IRs usage of strings is more complex than anybody in the non-classic space even in US/Europe. I pointed out these songs as they are in similar 'genre'. Yes, I think these songs should go into one 'genre' . pretty old/classic arrangements but IR gives it a fresh twist. I did not notice the key changes until you pointed out ..I guess I there is a transition piano run also Re: chord changes . this probably his equivalent of providing sangathis (which is what provides the surprise element in our music)
It is my pet theory that IR does "indian music" in a "western format" .. what I mean is all the nuances of our music, sangathis, brighhas, curvy tunes are all there in his songs. But not necessarily 'sung' by the vocalist alone.
For example, In my perspective, mugiLo is a straight tune .. but the backing strings give you that 'nalinam'..
@CK - what do you mean by 'western' ? One of my white co-workers mentioned most songs seems to 'move within the 12-note'  framework .. IR himself mentions at times about the more notes in our classical music (I guess it is 22).
@Ravi - not necessarily these songs.. more songs of IR are not really "liked" by our people. If the main tune is good they enjoy ,, but these sort of harmonies are not necessarily appreciated. I dont hope to stir a controversary, people like Rahman for this very reason and some say he is more like 'MSV than 'IR' for this reason.. Even our SrikanthD once mentioned .. 'ennanga tune'a chords' la irunthu start pannaraaru' .. These chords seem to cut both ways ..
(BTW, alaigalE vaa .. seems pretty close to Oh Butterfly ?)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=605816779449842


[size=12.727272033691406]Napoleon's comment yesterday on this old share by Ramesh Vinayagam which appeared on my FB wall is worth highlighting![/size]

Napoleon(Flautist) wrote:[size=10.909090995788574]I remember the piece of music (flute, clarinet and thablas) after the song was played by me, clarinet by mr.palla rao thabla mr.kannaia. Here I want to mention that raja sir recorded that piece with much lesser volume as u here in the film! It is not the film director as mr.ramesh vinayakam says here but raja sir. எனக்குத் தெரிந்த வரையில் பின்னணி இசை ஒலிப்பதிவு செய்யும்போதே நீங்கள் படத்தில் கேட்கும் ஒலி அளவின் ஏற்ற இறக்கங்களை சேர்த்தே பதிவு செய்து விடுவார். இயக்குனருக்கும் சவுண்ட் என்ஜினயருக்கும் பெரும்பாலும் வேலை வைக்க மாட்டார்![/size]

Watch from 4:00 mins onwards. RV suggests the idea to keep music playing in the background at low volume could have been the director's idea. However it turns out[size=12.727272033691406] it is not Maniji's idea as his fans including BRangan would like to believe. Twitter mafia alert  [/size]

kiru wrote:I guess I there is a transition piano run also Re: chord changes . this probably his equivalent of providing sangathis (which is what provides the surprise element in our music)

Yes, the piano run at the end of the interlude lands on the c note and thus establishes the tonal center for the pallavi. "Surprise" in music is a highly subjective notion. In addition to what you have said, to me, "surprises" in Indian music come from syncopation and changes in rhythm patterns. Cf. Vedham nee iniya naadham nee.

kiru wrote:(BTW, alaigalE vaa .. seems pretty close to Oh Butterfly ?)

Now that you say, the pallavi does bear some superficial resemblance,but more than that, the opening arpeggiated chords in the pallavi seem inspired by Beehoven's Moonlight Sonata. The long, tumultous  interlude also generally evoked Beethoven to me.

kiru wrote:

It is my pet theory that IR does "indian music" in a "western format" .. what I mean is all the nuances of our music, sangathis, brighhas, curvy tunes are all there in his songs. But not necessarily 'sung' by the vocalist alone.
For example, In my perspective, mugiLo is a straight tune .. but the backing strings give you that 'nalinam'..
@CK - what do you mean by 'western' ? One of my white co-workers mentioned most songs seems to 'move within the 12-note'  framework .. IR himself mentions at times about the more notes in our classical music (I guess it is 22).

Both Western and Indian melody are fundamentally based in 12 tone, though the Western world's exploration in atonal melody in the 20th century via Schoenberg and later composers goes far beyond even our most dissonant ragams like Thodi or Panthuvarali.  

But it's the above sangathis, brighas and other intricacies that are totally jettisoned in the list I gave above, be it Kurangu Kaiyil, Kalvane or Rojapoo Adivandhadhu and which identify the melody as Western.  Those intricacies are seen not only in other IR, including non Carnatic, songs like Chinna Mani Kuyile but in the songs of other music directors before and after him as well.  Even our folk music, be it Tamizh or North Indian (and I assume the other three Southern regions as well), has vocal melody that is more intricate and ornamented than Western melody.  Not that they do not have ornamentation like melismas or trills but that is treated very differently from the Indian sangidhi/harkat (as it is called in North).  And by the way, it is not restricted only to sangathis...our melodies as such use extra notes to get from point A from point B, curvy as you said.  While in Western, they follow a much straighter path.  

Now in Mugilo, I don't hear that nalinam in the strings at all, they are characteristic Western string arrangements at all.  However, I can infer that nalinam in the tune (though the singers have not sung it), as you said. That is why I said the tune is not that Indian but did not use 'non-Indian'....there are phrases like the first line of the charanam which have pure Indian melody (ditto Sattru Munbu).  Whereas Kurangu Kaiyil has none of it and even the treatment is very jazz like.  Roja poo also, the treatment is very Westernised.  Only the absence of Anglicised diction makes it sound Indian.  Besides, MSV also wrote some heavily Westernised, jazzy tunes back in the day so probably listeners were able to relate to it that way.  This is all speculation anyway.  Nobody, including us, can completely explain why we like or don't like music; it's too intuitive to be 100% logical.

fring151 wrote:https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=605816779449842


Napoleon's comment yesterday on this old share by Ramesh Vinayagam which appeared on my FB wall is worth highlighting!

Napoleon(Flautist) wrote:I remember the piece of music (flute, clarinet and thablas) after the song was played by me, clarinet by mr.palla rao thabla mr.kannaia. Here I want to mention that raja sir recorded that piece with much lesser volume as u here in the film! It is not the film director as mr.ramesh vinayakam says here but raja sir. எனக்குத் தெரிந்த வரையில் பின்னணி இசை ஒலிப்பதிவு செய்யும்போதே நீங்கள் படத்தில் கேட்கும் ஒலி அளவின் ஏற்ற இறக்கங்களை சேர்த்தே பதிவு செய்து விடுவார். இயக்குனருக்கும் சவுண்ட் என்ஜினயருக்கும் பெரும்பாலும் வேலை வைக்க மாட்டார்!

Watch from 4:00 mins onwards. RV suggests the idea to keep music playing in the background at low volume could have been the director's idea. However it turns out it is not Maniji's idea as his fans including BRangan would like to believe. Twitter mafia alert  

idhai avar blogla sonnA brangan "artist solRadhaiyellAm namba koodAdhu en mindla enna thOnudhO adhu dhAn enakku correct"mbAr. 

Shankar - what do you say bout this obstinate commitment to his version of truth by brangan?

goosebumps of guitar

Who wrote this for indiaglitz?

We cannot speak about the mastery of Ilayaraja's Guitar and not include 'Ilayanila' of Payanangal Mudivadhillai.  While hearing the song one cannot help imagining that Ilayaraja, S.P.Balasubramaniam (the singer) and Vairamuthu (Lyricist) are competing with each other to supersede the other's performance. Music lovers will end up deciding Raja sir has won hands down mainly because of the exemplary guitar interludes that come between the charanams and at the lengthier guitar play that comes at end of the song.

The Hindu publishing a blogger's rAsA appreciation

ராகவன் சாமுவேல்,வலைஞர் wrote:
மிகச்சிறந்த பெண் குரலிசை பாடல்கள் இளையராஜாவின் இசையில் இருந்து வந்தவைதான் என்று சத்தியம் செய்யமுடியும் எல்லோராலும். பழைய சுசீலாவின் பாடல்கள், ஜிக்கி, ஜமுனா ராணி, லீலா, ராஜேஸ்வரி என்று பெரிய பாடகர்கள் இருந்தும் மிகச்சிறந்த பாடல்கள் எழுபதுகளின் ஆரம்பத்திலும், எண்பதுகளின் முன் பாதியிலும்தான் இருந்தது என்று உறுதியாக சொல்ல முடியும்.
 
ஜானகி, உமா ரமணன், சுசீலா, சசிரேகா, ஜென்சி என்று வித்தை காட்டிய மாயக்காரன் இளையராஜா. ‘நிழல்கள்’ படத்துக்காக இசைக்கப் பட்ட ‘தூரத்தில் நான் கண்ட உன் முகம்’ என்ற படத்தில் இடம்பெறாத இந்த பாடல், படமாக்க வேண்டிய சிக்கலினால் கூட கை விடப்பட்டிருக்கலாம். பாலுமகேந்திரா, மகேந்திரன் வரிசையில் இன்னுமொருவர் வேண்டும் ராஜாவின் பாடலைப் படமாக்கும் விதம் பற்றி பேச!​

I would agree 200% with this fellow on the "female solo excellence" by 70's and early 80's rAsA!

Granted, there are evergreen PS classics from prior gen songs but rAsA took them to a different platform - a terrific combo of melody, orch, emotions and nativity! And SJ was an undisputed singing queen for the genre!

Alaigale vaa is beautiful.  However, the pallavi has some pure Indian phrases so already it is not in the same category as Kurangu Kaiyil Maalai. And even with the operatic touches, SPB's portions also have some Indian phrases.  Indha Ulagil is also pretty Indian though it has some Western touches.

Day by Day: Now this is exactly what I am talking of, though singer is still giving slightly Indian treatment in some places.  But ooh, this is so jazzy, like floating in heaven!  Speaking of which, left out All The Time from Nadodi Thendral.

Edaya Bagilu is also pretty Westernised but more pop based...like a certain Peabo Bryson-Celine Dion duet.  Not my cuppa.

app_engine wrote:

I would agree 200% with this fellow on the "female solo excellence" by 70's and early 80's rAsA!

Granted, there are evergreen PS classics from prior gen songs but rAsA took them to a different platform - a terrific combo of melody, orch, emotions and nativity! And SJ was an undisputed singing queen for the genre!

I think so too.. I guess women and their emotions got much more respect in the society during these times .. (rather than the 'kanavanE kaN kaNda dheivam' roles they were expected to play). Movies and IR reflected these changes in society in the film (songs). (BTW, my fav singer is PS and later Chitra)