Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 2

crimson king wrote:Alaigale vaa is beautiful.  However, the pallavi has some pure Indian phrases so already it is not in the same category as Kurangu Kaiyil Maalai. And even with the operatic touches, SPB's portions also have some Indian phrases.  Indha Ulagil is also pretty Indian though it has some Western touches.

Day by Day: Now this is exactly what I am talking of, though singer is still giving slightly Indian treatment in some places.  But ooh, this is so jazzy, like floating in heaven!  Speaking of which, left out All The Time from Nadodi Thendral.

Edaya Bagilu is also pretty Westernised but more pop based...like a certain Peabo Bryson-Celine Dion duet.  Not my cuppa.

Ok, now you spoilt edhaya bagilu for me with the mention of Peabo Bryson -Celine Dion :-)
You are providing a very good 'color' on this indian vs western .. good definition ..also the presence of chords/basslines accentuates the absence of the indian elements..
(do you think the chords are specifically left out whenever the song/line/phrases needs some gamakams.. improvisations ..?)
@fring - I should have mentioned sangathis as ONE of the surprise elements ..

kiru wrote:@fring - I should have mentioned sangathis as ONE of the surprise elements ..

Blame it on my mathematical background. I can be annoyingly pedantic at times.  

kiru wrote:

crimson king wrote:Alaigale vaa is beautiful.  However, the pallavi has some pure Indian phrases so already it is not in the same category as Kurangu Kaiyil Maalai. And even with the operatic touches, SPB's portions also have some Indian phrases.  Indha Ulagil is also pretty Indian though it has some Western touches.

Day by Day: Now this is exactly what I am talking of, though singer is still giving slightly Indian treatment in some places.  But ooh, this is so jazzy, like floating in heaven!  Speaking of which, left out All The Time from Nadodi Thendral.

Edaya Bagilu is also pretty Westernised but more pop based...like a certain Peabo Bryson-Celine Dion duet.  Not my cuppa.

Ok, now you spoilt edhaya bagilu for me with the mention of Peabo Bryson -Celine Dion :-)  
You are providing a very good 'color' on this indian vs western .. good definition ..also the presence of chords/basslines accentuates the absence of the indian elements..
(do you think the chords are specifically left out whenever the song/line/phrases needs some gamakams.. improvisations ..?)
@fring - I should have mentioned sangathis as ONE of the surprise elements ..

Certainly the presence of chords could clash with gamakams.  But IR has in fact done the unthinkable - like hyperactive basslines throughout the charanam of Rojavai Thalatum Thendral (many other songs).  My friend who is a rock musician and a huge IR fan himself said that IR thinks like a Western composer when he writes the instrumental portions and somehow switches back to Indian mode for melody which of course is incredible.

ck,
  kiru solra - Mugilo megamo... Headphone la kaeteengala... 

Head phone il kaetal.. kiru sorla Nalinam... Feel panna mudiyum.............

Heard it many times on headphone before.  I do hear the nalinam but on vocals, not on the strings, that is my only point.

Kamal supposedly new film with raja

ck,
  IR's instrumentation............  always.. Sweet, soft.. and the Nalinam.. adhu dhan avaroda special..

Mugilo megamo  -   strings  -   Notes.. actuala  soft illai....... booooooooom  endru  alarala  kondu vandhu irukalam. adhai..

soft aga  ( mudindha varai.. )  and.. Beach il.. kaathu.. vidhyasamaga irukum.. oru suzharchi irukum..........  alaiyil oru suzharchi irukum.. adhai pola...  seidhu irupar.. Sound arambithu.. oru suzhalaga vandhu ... idhil.. arambathil.. sound... kammi sound agavum.. mudiyum podhu.. konjam adhigamavagum varum..............  ipadi than naan feel seigiren.. 

idhai than kiru solvadhaga ninaithu kolgiren.............

Usha wrote:ck,
  kiru solra - Mugilo megamo... Headphone la kaeteengala... 

Head phone il kaetal.. kiru sorla Nalinam... Feel panna mudiyum.............

Exactly Usha. thanks for helping me out .. the strings play cyclical notes when the words mugilO mugilO is sung almost linearly .. the later part of the pallavi, strings go multi-part with occasional piano notes..
the cyclical pattern (ostinato ?) also repeats in the interludes with different instruments..

As Fring observed, the "strings are imaginatively arranged" .. one of the cool MDs (yuvan :-) ) observed in his 'cool' understated way about the way the strings are arranged in this song.. the strings are the showcase in this song..

Usha wrote:ck,
  IR's instrumentation............  always.. Sweet, soft.. and the Nalinam.. adhu dhan avaroda special..

Mugilo megamo  -   strings  -   Notes.. actuala  soft illai....... booooooooom  endru  alarala  kondu vandhu irukalam. adhai..

soft aga  ( mudindha varai.. )  and.. Beach il.. kaathu.. vidhyasamaga irukum.. oru suzharchi irukum..........  alaiyil oru suzharchi irukum.. adhai pola...  seidhu irupar.. Sound arambithu.. oru suzhalaga vandhu ... idhil.. arambathil.. sound... kammi sound agavum.. mudiyum podhu.. konjam adhigamavagum varum..............  ipadi than naan feel seigiren.. 

idhai than kiru solvadhaga ninaithu kolgiren.............

Usha.. first classA sollitteega.. Very nice choice of words. Sometime (or most time :-( ) my communication skills escape me ..

Vicky dissected Aboorva SagotharargaL BGM (string ensemble) to the core. Very well explained in soundcloud. Please don't miss the intricacies behind it, especially the alien accidental notes.

http://raagadevan.blogspot.nl/2014/02/harmony-in-dissonance.html

No doubt the strings in Mugilo are brilliant.  We are drifting from the crux here.  It's just that those string arrangements are absolutely Western.  There is none of the Indianisation of Western instruments that he has sometimes done in 70s or 80s songs.  This was total Budapest. Hence perhaps the more restrained (in terms of ornamentation) vocals too so that the Indian element is not emphasised too much.  It may not sound that apt in such urbane settings, that could have been the consideration.

crimson king wrote:No doubt the strings in Mugilo are brilliant.  We are drifting from the crux here.  It's just that those string arrangements are absolutely Western.  There is none of the Indianisation of Western instruments that he has sometimes done in 70s or 80s songs.  This was total Budapest. Hence perhaps the more restrained (in terms of ornamentation) vocals too so that the Indian element is not emphasised too much.  It may not sound that apt in such urbane settings, that could have been the consideration.

Of course, the strings are all western. Even the main vocal tune can be western. But do we get the satisfaction of listening to an 'indian' melody ? IMHO, yes, when you listen to the whole orchestra vs comparing the vocals in this song (or any IR song) to another composer, say KVM, or even IR's own classical/semi-classical tune. Personally, I am not picky on gamakams, sangathis etc.. As long as I get the surprise elements, complexity, ornamentation and improvisations.
I can identify with mugilO, as a genre, it is not alien to me !!! Thanks to IR for removing the 'foreignness' in this.

Never said the tune isn't Indian.  That has been my argument from the beginning anyway. If you recall, it was your argument that his WCM heavy songs (including Mugilo) don't appeal to Indian listeners.   I said the pallavi is not THAT Indian - which does not equate to non Indian - but pointed out that phrases in the charanam are pure Indian.  Now it seems you are trying to say Mugilo has the qualities that appeal to Indians. We both like the song so you need to just make up your mind now on these trivialities. It's a nice academic discussion to have as to which songs of his lean all the way to Western, which are in the middle blah blah, as long as we don't make it an argument about tastes.

kiru wrote:

Usha wrote:ck,
  IR's instrumentation............  always.. Sweet, soft.. and the Nalinam.. adhu dhan avaroda special..

Mugilo megamo  -   strings  -   Notes.. actuala  soft illai....... booooooooom  endru  alarala  kondu vandhu irukalam. adhai..

soft aga  ( mudindha varai.. )  and.. Beach il.. kaathu.. vidhyasamaga irukum.. oru suzharchi irukum..........  alaiyil oru suzharchi irukum.. adhai pola...  seidhu irupar.. Sound arambithu.. oru suzhalaga vandhu ... idhil.. arambathil.. sound... kammi sound agavum.. mudiyum podhu.. konjam adhigamavagum varum..............  ipadi than naan feel seigiren.. 

idhai than kiru solvadhaga ninaithu kolgiren.............

Usha.. first classA sollitteega.. Very nice choice of words. Sometime (or most time :-( ) my communication skills escape me ..

Thanks for ur kind words Kiru... communication skill. romba thevai kiru indha kalathil.................

ck,
Nalinam.. adharuku bhadhil sollalaiyae.. kandipa iruku....

taste enbadhu veru... IR enna senju irukar enbadhu veru........... IR.. Soft aga sweet aga.. and.......

kaadhuku kashtam ilamal.. melliyadhaga seidhu irukar.. original Western. .ipadi irukavilai.. idhu IR'S SPECIAL....
kandipaga something special dhan. typical Western ilai idhu......................

I didn't answer the question because I didn't want to launch into a long rant about Western music and stereotyped perceptions of it in India.  (a) Yes, indeed, it is soft and melodious, there is nalinam in that sense, never denied it.  (b) No, that approach very much exists in Western music. Note that kiru also agreed that the string arrangements are indeed Western.  Now...  

Sorry, but firstly there is no such thing as a typical Western music.  It is an ocean and, possibly due to the diversity of cultures within Western (as in American, English, Scottish, Irish, German, Italian, French, Spanish, Russian, etc) and also to the variety of instruments employed by them, covers a wider variety of styles than Indian music.  And just like Hindi music has a very different flavour (over and above just the language aspect) from Tamil, Northern British music feels different from Southern or New York music from Los Angeles.  Maybe a listener who is not familiar with Western music needs to first engage deeply with it to sense these differences significantly enough, that is not for me to say.  But they do exist and have been observed by Western authors/journalists as well, i.e, not a figment of my imagination.  

With that out of the way, secondly, Western music certainly accommodates music that is soft, subtle, sentimental and sophisticated.  These are not uniquely Indian attributes. A perception that Western is bound to be narasam is perhaps influenced by the tendency of Indian media to highlight the worst pop trash coming out of America or UK and celebrate it like the second coming of Jesus.  But that is not necessarily representative of what Western music is and can be.  I am going to use a track built entirely around vocalise (just to eliminate the language problem) to demonstrate the capacity for Western to be soft and 'curvy'  (at the same time avoiding instrumentals as they can be 'heavy').  Just for the sake of info, this was 1977 and not likely to have been influenced by Ilayaraja's music.





As I remarked before, conventional (pre-Schoenberg) Western music revolves around 12 tones (and light music like blues or rock also tends to operate within those boundaries) so, fundamentally, Western and Indian music are not different to the point of incompatibility.  The big difference is Western music is much, much more evolved in the use of harmony while Indian melody is more intricate.  

But it is not as if Western music is fundamentally unmelodic (though it is open minded enough to be so if the required expression calls for it) or Indian music cannot conceptually accommodate harmony.  It required Ilayaraja's genius to observe the fertile scope to combine both schools without caricaturing one or the other.   He has himself said that when he first heard Bach, he did not consider it a different kind of music.  Rather, he could hear swaras even in it (!) and possibly discovered the scope to combine the two with that and other such insights.  

Ilayaraja's music is universal in its scope.  Maybe our imagination isn't always because it is hampered by cultural, especially linguistic, barriers.  But a Westerner would have no problems in embracing Day by Day or Kurangu Kaiyil Maalai (except if he is some anti-jazz type) if all of its lyrics were written in a language he/she understands and preferably also sung by a European.  Just as we unquestioningly embrace the complex Western techniques spoonfed to us in folk songs like Kodiyile.  

We do not embrace it just because it is Indian.  That is a very limiting definition of his work even if it is broadly speaking Indian.  No other Indian musician ever visualised such potent possibilities in Indian-Western synthesis and nobody is likely to ever again.  We appreciate it because it is genius delivered within a cultural and linguistic framework we are comfortable with. But that doesn't mean all the techniques being employed in that music are Indian or even Indianised.  Ilayaraja can treat us to some totally Western music and somehow surmount our resistance to it.  I speak from experience as somebody who never really liked Western music and thought a lot of it was noise pollution...until Ilayaraja opened my eyes to what all it could be.  

Sorry for the long rant but I did say at the beginning it was going to be one.

If that sounds like something struck a raw nerve of mine, it's because Ilayaraja is, by self admission, influenced by great Western composers just as he is by Carnatic music.  So why not also give some credit to the former culture's skills in making music, right?  It's not like all great things in music originate from India.  Ilayaraja was and is as dependent on the inspiration (not intended in the pejorative sense) he gained from Bach or Mozart as from Thyagaraja.

ck,

Hearty Thanks for ur BIGGGGGGGGGGG post... try to learn.....................

porumaiya.. romba vishayangalai solli irukeenga... Therinjukaren...................

neraiya naal padikanam unga post ai.. padikaren........

IR.. select pannina western type... soft and sweet............. correct a.............

Yeah, that's a fair comment, ha ha.      IIRC he once said music na thalavali ya iruka kudhadhu.

ck,
Thank u.........  ....

thalaivaliya iruka kudadhu.. ipadi sonnadhu enaku theriyadhu.. ana solven..... IR songs thavira.. yar composition layum..
indha kashtam varudhu.... edho romba velai senja madhirii.. oru tired.. brain la varum................

naan nejama kenathu thavalai............... engalai pondravargaluku than IR neraiya tune koduthu irukar..

Which is sort of what I am trying to convey.  That it is IR, THE MAN, who makes music for all of us to cherish.  His music is beyond nationalities, it is an international heritage.   

crimson king wrote:Which is sort of what I am trying to convey.  That it is IR, THE MAN, who makes music for all of us to cherish.  His music is beyond nationalities, it is an international heritage.   

Beautiful Words ck.................. romba sandhosham.............

analum.... indha Nativity.... Reallity.......... idhula avar sikkikarar............. asaiyaga than. adhil.. neenga sonna vishayangalai ellam.. enga level ku puriya vaikirar............ Indru.. ungaludan. .idhai patri thalaiyai vida vaikara alavuku.. engaludaiya
knowledge ai improve seidhu irukar.. Namma IR.........................

That is yet another aspect that makes him so special.  While Rahman conveyed it in a way that could be seen as condescending, it's true...a man from a rural background embraced urbanity and Western musical concepts deeply and yet never abandoned his roots.  I have a theory that that is where the emotional resonance of his music comes from.  It has the warmth of the heartland while using all the sophisticated techniques that academics are proud of.  Usually, one world distrusts the other.  That is why a lot of academic music sounds cold and distant while rustic music doesn't get beyond its, well, rustic roots.  Maybe Kalidasa is a good parallel.

ck,
sari................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idRt2-KckAA