Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 2

fring151 wrote:

kiru wrote:@baroque  - no problem .. no offence meant :-)
@CK - who is starting the computer schools ? :-) if there is demand for that kind of music, there will be people to start schools. But I am a little pessimistic about WCM becoming popular in India. Our own music tradition and heritiage is too strong and almost 'ingrained' in an Indian's mind, it is difficult for them to appreciate the polyphonic sounds of WCM. All the WCM heavy songs of IR are never as popular as the tune heavy ones.

Oh yes, they are! People just don't realize they are WCM based.

Ditto.  (a) Songs apparently steeped in rustic Tamil flavour like Kodiyile or Chinna Mani Kuyile use Western classical concepts and/or (b) Many songs use lots of orchestral instruments without superficially evoking a particularly strong Western flavour (I mean not to the point that people wouldn't call them Tamil songs) like Ilamayenum Poongatru or Raja Kaiya Vaccha.  In either event, many songs with a lot of WCM influence became hits and are remembered to date.  Even elephants like Rasathi Unnai which, as I said once before, has several instrumental passages that could fit unchanged in Western compositions.  

kiru:  Market forces oda velai-yadhan namma ippa parkarome.   Not only Western instruments, market won't spare our traditional instruments either.  As IR said, just plug in the keyboard and "fantastic, unbelievable, out of the world" will follow.      Yaaru poi veenai thookamatadha thookindu poi vaasikarudhu.  

As for WCM,  I think it is the rigour involved in that school of music that has stopped Indians from embracing it, not our dubious commitment to Indian values.  If we can embrace cars, computers and stock market, what's so unIndian about WCM.  It's just the idea of so many musicians playing precisely in perfect coordination flies in the face of the Indian ethos of chaos and disharmony.

[quote="crimson king"]

fring151 wrote:.. It's just the idea of so many musicians playing precisely in perfect coordination flies in the face of the Indian ethos of chaos and disharmony.

ha ha .. like that :-) yeah.. why should I play lockstep with him !!! ellAmE thani aavarthanam thaan...
some times I get the impression .. following any rules is only for suckers (iLichchavaayan).. Just get ahead of the other guy in anything, anywhere .. :-)

Nailed it.

This discussion around WCM and why Indians would not go for it very interesting.

Superficially, we like bragging rights - all the iXxx devices, a Sony, BMW, Audi help us brag. What can sweating out and learning WCM buy you? Practically nothing. This is the primary driver for Indians not learning WCM. Otherwise, WCM will feature along with J2EE/C++ on TN dustbins :-)

WCM is team sport. Our music is a lonely one. Moving from lonely excellence to team sport is no easy shift.

I have been researching on something where I have been able to quantitatively prove some musical trends with IR's work. When I see such interesting discussions, I want to spill the beans - however, that will be unfair to my blog readers.  This work can potentially answer the questions being raised here.

I promise to post my quantitative analysis in this forum (I do have the fear that I may alienate a section of my blog readers - but, who cares - we need to elevate the standard of analysis of IR's work) the same time I post it on my blog. It will be in June 2014.

Till that, I will ask an occasional question and shut up!

Weekend and was vetti today. Decided on a small exercise. Did a few playlists for some personal comparative perspective. Various lyricists with Ilayaraaja. All the my favorites/hits/popular ones I've tried to include. 85%+ is from 1976-1990. adhukkE managed to include close to 250 songs from only Tamil.

Just take a cursory glance at the songs in each list. A few lyricists will surprise you with the number of popular songs we might have casually attributed to someone else.

Gangai Amaran - Ilayaraaja: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn4GJpNVAHex-BOgiP11QWqCcoPrVtCoU&feature=mh_lolz 58 songs

Vaali - Ilayaraaja: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn4GJpNVAHexToUOb-pNSofMj2FQ5lL08 52 songs

Vairamuthu - Ilayaraaja: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn4GJpNVAHexAn0HzG4U37HpXAI8YZNFd 50 songs

Kannadasan - Ilayaraaja: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn4GJpNVAHeyxS1XB7suxzPrvdXjR7J-j 25 songs

Panju Arunachalam - Ilayaraaja: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn4GJpNVAHexhOZsoPMg3h02M5rJ6t5YU&feature=mh_lolz 30 songs

Pulamaipithan - Ilayaraaja: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn4GJpNVAHew7Gyj3Eq-iYZoS1AEci6a9 20 songs

Ilayaraaja - Ilayaraaja (lyrics+music): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn4GJpNVAHey4PPmpDUPWq65ryBxXEvcd&feature=mh_lolz 20 songs.

Cheers!

DM,
Great job and great picks!



(Because of musicalaya.net / vinyl thread / database thread, I no longer get "ada, idhu ivarA ezhudhinadhu" kind of surprises anymore - however, ungaL sEval veLi ulagukku romba rombath thEvai).

Every one of us should share these lists in twitter and at other places to make the awareness more to public - especially to those who think all 80's were VM!

Hopefully you'll keep expanding this list over a period of time - I would love to see at least 100 in Vaali's list, if possible another 50 from 80's alone! mounarAgam, agni natchathiram mAdhiri popular hits pOttAlE number vandhudum

Thanks appji. This was mainly for the non-mafia. avangaLa solliyum kutham illa as even the mafia would have such misconceptions unless they pay attention to who wrote what. Anbu's Sir spreadsheets are a God given that way. And again, non-mafia might not have the time or inclination to sit and wade through an excel sheet with a cursory 2000+ songs to start with, leave alone explore IR's post-mid 90s and his other language output. So this list would help them look at the songs in order (mostly ordered by date) and realize this lyricist wrote this song.

Such is the volume that this list itself covers only 5% of his overall works and this itself is pure gold. Mostly popular so that non-mafia goes "aahaa idha avara ezhudhinadhu? naan VM'nu nenachEnE." Such bulbs are the nOkkam of this post. As many number of bulbs everyone (mafia and non-mafia; more the mafia, the sweeter it is since namma payalugaLa dhAn adikkaNum for such misconceptions) get, this post and effort will have attained its payan This is by no means exhaustive. If I could, I'd have added Eeravizhi Kaavinyangal-esque rare/forgotten gems to create a parallel list of 250 gems. And consciously avoided including many songs from the same film (exceptions are there for every lyricist; angayum tried to be balanced. Johny with 4 songs for GA, Sindhu Bhairavi, Punnagai Mannan with 3 each for VM, none for Vaali since thONda thONda vandhuNdE irundhudhu and I had to force myself to stop incompletely but satisfyingly at 52 with samples of 1 each from Mouna Ragam, Agni N, Thalapathi).

Will try expanding for the use of mafia. indha list'aye oru research blog aa pOttu explanations oda ellA arguments'ayum satisfy/nullify senjudalaam. Sometime soon.

PS: Posted list as twitlonger so that it is easy to bookmark as a single page: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s0lhsf

ravinat wrote:This discussion around WCM and why Indians would not go for it very interesting.

Superficially, we like bragging rights - all the iXxx devices, a Sony, BMW, Audi help us brag. What can sweating out and learning WCM buy you? Practically nothing. This is the primary driver for Indians not learning WCM. Otherwise, WCM will feature along with J2EE/C++ on TN dustbins :-)

WCM is team sport. Our music is a lonely one. Moving from lonely excellence to team sport is no easy shift.

I have been researching on something where I have been able to quantitatively prove some musical trends with IR's work. When I see such interesting discussions, I want to spill the beans - however, that will be unfair to my blog readers.  This work can potentially answer the questions being raised here.

I promise to post my quantitative analysis in this forum (I do have the fear that I may alienate a section of my blog readers - but, who cares - we need to elevate the standard of analysis of IR's work) the same time I post it on my blog. It will be in June 2014.

Till that, I will ask an occasional question and shut up!

Ravi, Looking forward to your analysis. I based my generalization on popularity of IR songs on youtube (eg. ennodu vaa vaa views saRRu munbu's) and the polls here.
Even though CK has pointed out popular songs with heavy WCM content. I am looking at only songs where the main tune itself is 'polyphonic' (eg mugilO mEgamO, enna solli paaduvathO ..)

AGI music has a youtube channel

Calls it "Ilayaraja official"...

kiru wrote:
Even though CK has pointed out popular songs with heavy WCM content. I am looking at only songs where the main tune itself is 'polyphonic' (eg mugilO mEgamO, enna solli paaduvathO ..)

I am not sure I get the drift here w.r.t main tune.  I don't think the vocal melody by itself of Mugilo is polyphonic.  With the instrumental layers in toto, there is a contrapuntal element but that holds good for many other songs of his, surely.  O Butterfly (specifically some unbelievable variations in the last pallavi), Kodiyile which I think I already mentioned.  In terms of polyphony purely in vocal melody, Etho Mogam is a worthwhile exhibit (while some vocal layers in the chorus may be homophonic, I don't think all are).  Maybe Ravi sir can comment on that example?

awesome

Mahendran wrote:
இந்தப் படத்துக்கு இன்னும் பெயர் சூட்டவில்லை. என் படங்கள் சிலவற்றுக்கு இளையராஜாதான் தலைப்பு வைத்தார். உதிரிப் பூக்கள் என்ற தலைப்பே அவர் வைத்ததுதான் (உடனே இளையராஜா யோசித்துவிட்டு... 'ஆமாம்' என்கிறார்!).

இந்தப் படத்துக்கும் அவர்தான் தலைப்பு வைப்பார்.

Ending exercise on lyricists - Ilayaraaja combos with 20 songs of Muthulingam with Ilayaraaja: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn4GJpNVAHezRUtmnnRv3v8hkZf_2mYD2&feature=mh_lolz

and

Mu. Metha and Ilayaraaja (12 songs): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLn4GJpNVAHexMNQMgD6vOFkpNObeJr6x_&feature=mh_lolz

Check these out too. Some lovely songs. These 2 with Pulamaipithan might not have written a lot for IR but have some very popular/excellent numbers under their belt. No way ignore-worthy. Will compress all 9 lyricists - Ilayaraaja into one blogpost/fact publishing post summarizing what I feel is the truth/my opinion.

Thanks App ji for exciting news on this film. Expectation is huge now for Mahendran-IR film after reading all these news. Let's see if it live up to the hype. Still very confident on Mahendran sir. Even if the film is so good, if it will survive the movie culture of today is the question.

Thanks again DM for the updates. I will check your channel sometime soon. Superb initiative!

DM,
  Really Great Work......... Thanks a lot.............

Uma Ramanan..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Jvl5AOxdA

DM,

Good job there!   
Need to create wider awareness about this. In light of these facts, it is downright laughable if neutrals still suggest both IR and VM needed each other in the 80s, split was IR's loss as much as VM's blah blah. Bwahaha. Look at the number of certified classics even by a relatively obscure lyricist like Muthulingam which get played virtually every other day on TV/FM.

Usha wrote:Uma Ramanan..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Jvl5AOxdA

Point to note: Another talent who is considered one of the playback greats thanks mainly to IR. Look at the number of ISO certified classics under her belt:

Aaagayaa vennilaave
Manjal veyyil
Poongathave thaal thiravaai
Boopaalam isaikkum
Nee paathi naan paathi
Aanandha raagam
Amudhe thamizhe
Pon maane

These are certified classics - as in musically rich and challenging (important point), evergreen, still extremely popular, unlikely to be  forgotten etc. I have deliberately left out many other gems like Nil nil nil, Megam karukkayile etc so no one can say I am including non-popular songs. Now compare the number of singers the one who must not be named introduced and/or groomed and the number of certified classics he gave them. Simple fact stating exercise. I am saying this not to take a silly dig at OWMNBN, but to encourage a cold. dispassionate look and analysis of facts.

crimson king wrote:

kiru wrote:
Even though CK has pointed out popular songs with heavy WCM content. I am looking at only songs where the main tune itself is 'polyphonic' (eg mugilO mEgamO, enna solli paaduvathO ..)

I am not sure I get the drift here w.r.t main tune.  I don't think the vocal melody by itself of Mugilo is polyphonic.  With the instrumental layers in toto, there is a contrapuntal element but that holds good for many other songs of his, surely.  O Butterfly (specifically some unbelievable variations in the last pallavi), Kodiyile which I think I already mentioned.  In terms of polyphony purely in vocal melody, Etho Mogam is a worthwhile exhibit (while some vocal layers in the chorus may be homophonic, I don't think all are).  Maybe Ravi sir can comment on that example?

CK, Kiru

  There are several Raja songs where he has used a polyphonic treatment with the main melody in some bars within the composition - examples, include - Poomaalaiye from Pagal Nilavu, Pon Oviyam from Kazhugu ,  Keeravani from Paadum Paravaigal, Avesamantha from Alapana (Telugu).  Most of Raja's Western chorus work uses harmony and rarely it has polyphonic treatment. Many other composers do use harmony and have used them even before Raja's time - what sets him apart? The other composers will use the harmony parts with one melody  - He will work with the rules of harmony and change one of 3 parts to folk, scat, Carnatic while he keeps the other as Western.

  Listen to the interludes of 'Halli Lavaniyalli' from Namoora Mandara Hoove. Indian melody and Scat in two parts beautifully coexist.

  Another extreme example is 'Enna Enna Kanavu Kandayo' from Valli. You have to hear the interludes of this song - Perfect harmony between a female choir chanting 'Om' in Alto and the male singing their western passages in Tenor.

  I do not want to preach to the converted, why I consider him a genius.

@CK and Ravi,
I guess I am not being precise in the usage of the term polyphonic. I am using it more in the sense of mutliple voices (either vocals or instruments) playing at the same time. Am I right or wrong ?
I heard Oh Butterfly and kodiyiLe now both of them I clearly identify as "heavily harmonized". kodiyiLe I tend to think of using "fills".
mugilo is different in my books, probably it is just 'contrapuntal harmony' but I feel the tune will not have the same effect (or stand-alone) without this harmony. I cannot say the same for the other two songs.
Anyways, I am willing to be educated/corrected on this. I specifically love an analysis of mugilO (and probably saRRu munbu).
@Ravi - you mention other composers using harmony. i think Raja's specialty is mainly in the contrapuntal arrangement and of course like you mentioned mixing the genres.
I am able to identify lots of unknown IR songs in other languages, just by the counterpoints in it. Somehow, I feel it is his signature. Other composers give me the impression they are 'struggling' to write a counterpoint.

fring151,
 Thanks for the response...  100 paatu padi irukanga nu solranga...  naan niniathen.. 20 or 30 paatu dhan endru..........

some more Classical numbers

1. kannane nee vara kathirundhen

2.sevvanthi pookalil seidha veedu

3.ooradangum samthilae

4. yaar thurigai

ravinat wrote:

  There are several Raja songs where he has used a polyphonic treatment with the main melody in some bars within the composition - examples, include - Poomaalaiye from Pagal Nilavu, Pon Oviyam from Kazhugu ,  Keeravani from Paadum Paravaigal, Avesamantha from Alapana (Telugu).  Most of Raja's Western chorus work uses harmony and rarely it has polyphonic treatment. Many other composers do use harmony and have used them even before Raja's time - what sets him apart? The other composers will use the harmony parts with one melody  - He will work with the rules of harmony and change one of 3 parts to folk, scat, Carnatic while he keeps the other as Western.

  Listen to the interludes of 'Halli Lavaniyalli' from Namoora Mandara Hoove. Indian melody and Scat in two parts beautifully coexist.

  Another extreme example is 'Enna Enna Kanavu Kandayo' from Valli. You have to hear the interludes of this song - Perfect harmony between a female choir chanting 'Om' in Alto and the male singing their western passages in Tenor.

  I do not want to preach to the converted, why I consider him a genius.

Keeravani is a particularly great example.  If both vocal and instrumental parts were converted to church organ, it would present a totally different picture.     I wanted to mention Poomalaye as well, but wasn't too sure.

kiru wrote:@CK and Ravi,
I guess I am not being precise in the usage of the term polyphonic. I am using it more in the sense of mutliple voices (either vocals or instruments) playing at the same time. Am I right or wrong ?
I heard Oh Butterfly and kodiyiLe now both of them I clearly identify as "heavily harmonized". kodiyiLe I tend to think of using "fills".
mugilo is different in my books, probably it is just 'contrapuntal harmony' but I feel the tune will not have the same effect (or stand-alone) without  this harmony. I cannot say the same for the other two songs.
Anyways, I am willing to be educated/corrected on this. I specifically love an analysis of mugilO (and probably saRRu munbu).
@Ravi - you mention other composers using harmony. i think Raja's specialty is mainly in the contrapuntal arrangement and of course like you mentioned mixing the genres.
I am able to identify lots of unknown IR songs in other languages, just by the counterpoints in it. Somehow, I feel it is his signature.  Other composers give me the impression they are 'struggling' to write a counterpoint.

Mutiple + independent voices = polyphony.  I did not break down the chords of Mugilo but the harmony mostly sounds homophonic except the phrase that accompanies Megamo.  Probably the effect you feel of dependency on harmony (which I also felt) is due to the fact that there are very few notes in the melody unlike many other IR tunes.  Because there is so much gap between Mugilo and Megamo it feels like something would be lost without the string harmony to fill the space.  Kodiyile is a more complete melody by itself, however the keyboard harmony accompanying it is staggeringly independent.  If I had to rate one Raja-folk album as his best, it would probably be Kadalora Kavithaigal (with Vaidehi Kaathirunthal as the other option).  He blends the western element so masterfully in both Kodiyile and Adi Athadi it is misleading.  You called it a fill as you identified with the melody but the keyboard parts scream Bach to me.  O Butterfly is more straight up but the last pallavi has a variation on the string harmony which is somewhat 'reminiscent' of Mugilo (I mean, it is actually the other way round).  Again, the melody works standalone but that by itself doesn't determine whether or not it is polyphonic.

I don't think kiru is indicating just vocals or the main melody as polyphonic. Right from the prelude there are multiple melodies in the song (in the form of orchestration) which run parallel to the main melody (vocals) which I think kiru is referring it as polyphonic. kiru, please correct me if I am wrong.

I agree that that's what he meant.  All I am saying is that it is not something restricted Mugilo (as opposed to say Kodiyile or Keeravani).  I think in both songs he mentioned, Mugilo and Enna Solli, there is more space between the vocal phrases which creates a somewhat different impression.  But it may not necessarily be polyphonic or more so than the other compositions.

On the other hand, now that I have brought up that point, it is possible that people are too accustomed to IR songs with tightly packed notes in vocal melody and did not adjust to Enna Solli Paduvadho. The mind is often conditioned to believe that something different = wrong. It is a bit early to judge whether that is the problem in the case of Mugilo also.