Discussions on ARR

Facebook irukkaRavanga yArAvadhu idhai kELungaLEn:
"Does the video offer irrefutable proof or a direct statement from RDB(reincarnated for this special purpose) that ARR is his torch bearer?"

fring151 wrote:And speaking of the flute, I have heard it claimed that Rahman even gave a fresh lease of life to this instrument in film songs. So far, that makes it two instruments  Rahman revived or introduced to TFM- Bass guitar and flute. Vera ennalAm? Tabla, violin also'nu solli own goal pOdAma irukkanum pAthu, though ARR has already taken a step in that direction by claiming there are no violin players in India in that interview to the Bengali composer. Patthu varushathukku apram, he wants to write an orchestral piece'nu vera hint kuduthurkkar mela. Who knows, claim pannAlum pannuvAnga, especially if Raja ceases to be as popular as he is now 10 years down the line, anything is on the cards. Edhavdhu ezhudha pOi, adhu symphony Agi, symphony tamizhan'nu pattam vAngipuduvAr. Sorry to be cynical, you know I like ARR too, but the amount of dissembling and the general indifference and/or willing consumption of propaganda as truth by most people is reaching a whole new level these days.

Fring - I strongly believe in this:

Abraham Lincoln wrote:
You can fool some people all of the time.
You can fool all the people some of the time.
You cannot fool all the people all the time

oru nAL illai oru nAL idhu Raghuman maRRum avaradhu koLgai parappu seyalALargaLaiyum thAkkum, andru asingapaduvan autokAran. I am waiting...

Ha! So even these guys engage in vetti things like these, eh?!

OK, my tworubees karuththu: both these guys - RDB & ARR - are massivly over-rated. 
1. They are good, sometimes very good. 
2. They are extremely popular across the country.

Considering these two points, sceneevas might be right (what's this multi-generation composers relay-race, by the way - some vijaytv special show for pongal eh?)

However, waittaminit sceneey, not so easy...
1+2 != musical genius 

If you really wanna get into the debate of who's the best composer the country has produced (which, by the way, happens to be the embodiment of vettiness and among the best examples of futile exercises), get your parameters & facts right first. No goal-post shifting midway, ok va?

(PS: RDB - I don't intend to imply that he had no 'stuff' but SDB/Salil/Madanmohan can any day trump over him in terms of musicality, if one really wants to get into comparision)

KV, nail hit head ya. JV enna da na RDB is greatest ever nu pOdu pOdarAr. avangaLa mAri musicians'e ivvaLo vettiyA discuss seyyarappO, namma nichayam seyyalAm Was chatting with my dad yesterday on James's comment. Dad guffawed with an "oLarrrAn. SDB munnAdi ellAm RDB picha edukkaNum. SDB'yoda genes edhO konjam irukku. That's all." I think that's all also when a layman can get to the point with precision this quickly, one can only loff lyk anything at this "sapling Attam'nE, nAn kaNdupiduchadhu" level pakkithanam.

kv wrote:Ha! So even these guys engage in vetti things like these, eh?!

OK, my tworubees karuththu: both these guys - RDB & ARR - are massivly over-rated. 
1. They are good, sometimes very good. 
2. They are extremely popular across the country.

Considering these two points, sceneevas might be right (what's this multi-generation composers relay-race, by the way - some vijaytv special show for pongal eh?)

However, waittaminit sceneey, not so easy...
1+2 != musical genius 

If you really wanna get into the debate of who's the best composer the country has produced (which, by the way, happens to be the embodiment of vettiness and among the best examples of futile exercises), get your parameters & facts right first. No goal-post shifting midway, ok va?

(PS: RDB - I don't intend to imply that he had no 'stuff' but SDB/Salil/Madanmohan can any day trump over him in terms of musicality, if one really wants to get into comparision)

This.

RDB is just a link in the chain that starts with Khemchand Prakash(I can go only that far back - why even IR started with him only), Anil Biswas, Salilda, Roshan, Madanmohan, SDB. I have my personal bias against Naushad and I have lost taste for Shankar-Jaikishen, although they were my first introduction to Hindi songs, and even though I didn't know it, at least 100-200 of my first ever Hindi favourites all belong to them. But even Naushad and S-J cannot be ignored in comparison with RDB.

I think the reason this is being peddled is to ride on the already-existing pedestal for RDB. And they are careful not to say "better than RDB" because that will be instant suicide in the bollywood market that they are targetting. illainA, "better than MSV/IR"-nu sonnavanga En "Equal to RDB"-nu solluvAnga. Think, makkaLE, think. This is precisely calibrated propoganda - you have got to give it to them for knowing their market (i.e) nooru varushatukku piRagu varappOgum madaiyargaL

biladdy OP Nayyarai kooda maRakka mudiyAdhu if you want to put RDB's case forward.

Yes, there a tons of music directors starting from R C Boral, Pankaj mullick, Chitalkar to SDB, Naushad, Madanmohan and Roshan. Their contributions are immense and thoroughly rooted to our system (despite having western influence). I know they are not comparing who is better RDB or ARR & Co, but I felt the comparison of their styles itself is futile and lame. Taking few cases here and there and trying to typecast ARR & Co with RDB is plain silly. As Suresh ji said, RDB is far more better music director. I don't know how his teesri manzil, kaagaz ke phool, padosan, aandhi, sanjog, amar prem, kati patang, buddha mil gaya compares with ARR & Co. They are taking some of his western based songs and try to match with ARR & Co's which does not work that way.

More than the comparison, this 'international stuff', 'world is theirs', 'world would listen to them' kind of statements annoys me a lot. What is world to them? Simply bluffing, only showing their word power and not world power.

Yes O P Nayyar can't be ignored. One of my very favorite music director and his guts not to use Lata at all tells something of his mastery.

plum wrote:

kv wrote:Ha! So even these guys engage in vetti things like these, eh?!

OK, my tworubees karuththu: both these guys - RDB & ARR - are massivly over-rated. 
1. They are good, sometimes very good. 
2. They are extremely popular across the country.

Considering these two points, sceneevas might be right (what's this multi-generation composers relay-race, by the way - some vijaytv special show for pongal eh?)

However, waittaminit sceneey, not so easy...
1+2 != musical genius 

If you really wanna get into the debate of who's the best composer the country has produced (which, by the way, happens to be the embodiment of vettiness and among the best examples of futile exercises), get your parameters & facts right first. No goal-post shifting midway, ok va?

(PS: RDB - I don't intend to imply that he had no 'stuff' but SDB/Salil/Madanmohan can any day trump over him in terms of musicality, if one really wants to get into comparision)

This.

RDB is just a link in the chain that starts with Khemchand Prakash(I can go only that far back - why even IR started with him only), Anil Biswas, Salilda, Roshan, Madanmohan, SDB. I have my personal bias against Naushad and I have lost taste for Shankar-Jaikishen, although they were my first introduction to Hindi songs, and even though I didn't know it, at least 100-200 of my first ever Hindi favourites all belong to them. But even Naushad and S-J cannot be ignored in comparison with RDB.

I think the reason this is being peddled is to ride on the already-existing pedestal for RDB. And they are careful not to say "better than RDB" because that will be instant suicide in the bollywood market that they are targetting. illainA, "better than MSV/IR"-nu sonnavanga En "Equal to RDB"-nu solluvAnga. Think, makkaLE, think. This is precisely calibrated propoganda - you have got to give it to them for knowing their market (i.e) nooru varushatukku piRagu varappOgum madaiyargaL

A bunch of pro-RDB buffoons like SLB, Anu Malik etc have practically made it heresy in Bollywood to claim the earlier music directors were better than RDB.  I was utterly stupefied when Carter Road was renamed as Naushad Ali Road after his death, didn't expect people to still remember his contributions after all those years and the endless Burman-propaganda.  The irony in all this is that RDB really admired IR's work and acknowledged he was far ahead of the others at the time they met (the 80s).  I am not sure RDB really had malice towards any of the Hindi legends (though he got carried away with his pro-Kishore/anti-Rafi thing for a while) so all this propaganda in his name makes me sad.  He didn't deserve such dunderhead fans.

V_S wrote:I don't know how his teesri manzil, kaagaz ke phool, padosan, aandhi, sanjog, amar prem, kati patang, buddha mil gaya compares with ARR & Co. 

Except Kati Patang or Amar Prem, very few of those films would figure in a typical RDB-acolyte bigshot's list.    It's usually those two plus Hare Rama Hare Krishna, Yaadon ki Baarat, Sholay, Hum Kisise Kum Nahin...maybe even Sagar!!!   .  I wonder how people who constantly lift RDB to the skies manage to miss such a superb soundtrack like Ghar with Tere Bina Jiya Jaaye Na (imo the best track he wrote).  Or Baharon Ke Sapne from his very early days with the brilliant Zamane Ne Maari and Kya Janu Sajan.  I would probably get called prejudiced if I said I didn't consider RDB as great as the likes of SJ or Madan Mohan and yet I probably know his back catalogue better than some of these self proclaimed bhaktargals.

And Zamane Ko Dikhana Hai, which I like better than Hum Kissise or Khel Khel Mein but the latter two are more popular.

I think Brangar once talked about ZKDH, maybe because it gives snob value

I am not personally too fond of Zamane Ko Dikhana Hai but the mention of a Rishi Kapoor film reminded me of one of RD's late gems, Bade Dilwala.  Though as per itwofs Kahi Na Ja is a lot like some Edith Piaf song, it's a lovely, haunting tune.  I always liked that side of RD much more, pity he got typecast by the Dum Maro Dum/Duniya Mein Logon Ko kind of songs.

crimson king wrote:

V_S wrote:I don't know how his teesri manzil, kaagaz ke phool, padosan, aandhi, sanjog, amar prem, kati patang, buddha mil gaya compares with ARR & Co. 

Except Kati Patang or Amar Prem, very few of those films would figure in a typical RDB-acolyte bigshot's list.    It's usually those two plus Hare Rama Hare Krishna, Yaadon ki Baarat, Sholay, Hum Kisise Kum Nahin...maybe even Sagar!!!   .  I wonder how people who constantly lift RDB to the skies manage to miss such a superb soundtrack like Ghar with Tere Bina Jiya Jaaye Na (imo the best track he wrote).  Or Baharon Ke Sapne from his very early days with the brilliant Zamane Ne Maari and Kya Janu Sajan.  I would probably get called prejudiced if I said I didn't consider RDB as great as the likes of SJ or Madan Mohan and yet I probably know his back catalogue better than some of these self proclaimed bhaktargals.

Ironically, I listen to more of his Is Mod Pe Jaate Hain and Seeli Hawa Choo Gayee from Aandhi and Libaas than the more popular ones. RDB was very very good. Comparing him to ARR is very very right. They both broke the pattern and grammar in Indian film music (andha vidhathula pioneers dhaan) but to say either of them is the GOAT is a joke. They have their place in the pantheon of greats and they are possibly the last among the greats.

Is Mod Se is a beauty.  Aandhi was a great soundtrack.   Agree with the rest of the comment, which sums up what I have been saying.

Drunkenmunk wrote:They have their place in the pantheon of greats and they are possibly the last among the greats.

Sorry, this I cannot agree

Seeni -

"For me you guys know that Pancham and ARR are very very special and I have heard most of their music and have always felt that they being similar,this NDTV discussion was very interesting.. And both these make music from an emotional level and were spontaneous,so..."

ARR = Spontaneous is the new propaganda

plum wrote:I think the reason this is being peddled is to ride on the already-existing pedestal for RDB. And they are careful not to say "better than RDB" because that will be instant suicide in the bollywood market that they are targetting. illainA, "better than MSV/IR"-nu sonnavanga En "Equal to RDB"-nu solluvAnga. Think, makkaLE, think. This is precisely calibrated propoganda - you have got to give it to them for knowing their market (i.e) nooru varushatukku piRagu varappOgum madaiyargaL

 Neenga neenga thAn.  

vicks wrote:Seeni -

"For me you guys know that Pancham and ARR are very very special and I have heard most of their music and have always felt that they being similar,this NDTV discussion was very interesting.. And both these make music from an emotional level and were spontaneous,so..."

ARR = Spontaneous is the new propaganda

Aamaam. Namma IR'ku ennalAm soldramO adha appadiye uruvidrAnga, right from musical descriptions to spontaneity.

If ARR is spontaneous then Bach must have been free jazz.

Seeni -

"For me you guys know that Pancham and ARR are very very special and I have heard most of their music and have always felt that they being similar,this NDTV discussion was very interesting.. And both these make music from an emotional level and were spontaneous,so..."

ARR = Spontaneous is the new propaganda

crimson king wrote:If ARR is spontaneous then Bach must have been free jazz.

now you may have some idea about the marketing skullduggery we have to contend with  
this drivel about AR and spontaneity isn't new even Prem Panicker wasn't spared. sample
this from one of his interviews with AR during his rediff days.

"I am bored, Rahman said. From age 11, I have been first playing, then composing, film music. The situations are so limited –- one romantic song by the male, one by the female; a duet; a sad song; a dance number, that is it."

After a point, he said, you run out of different ways of doing the same thing.

To alleviate that boredom, he plays with his compositions. It takes him 15 minutes to come up with the base tune, he said. He then starts layering tracks on top of it, experimenting with sounds. Sometimes, he says, these are sounds so subtle, it may not even register on your ear the first few times you hear the final song.

Once, he said, he composed a simple romantic ditty and ended up with 118 overlaid tracks on top of the base melody. He then reversed the process, whittling them down, tinkering, till he ended up with just 8.

Why? Just to see what I could do and like I said, to keep boredom at bay, was his answer.

from this we can infer that AR chose not to be 'spontaneous'  

Haha. What will be the fan defense is he is spontaneous in creating a tune. But he works around that tune and the end product takes 15-30 days or a couple of months. I've seen this being flaunted around. Maybe it's the truth but is spontaneity restricted to creating a tune? Then a whole pantheon will be spontaneous. But if we restrict the definition of spontaneity to creating an entire song from the scratch, i.e. creating a tune to writing down the orchestration and mapping the entire song's sound on paper, Raaja can do that for a song in 45 minutes and possibly not many other than him would qualify for satisfying that definition of spontaneous. Point is, spontaneity here can be amorphous depending on fan definitions. Vis a vis loops and Ghibran crediting them, I can foresee future fan defenses could start at ARR creates his own loops. Onaaya irundhu pAthA dhAn theriyin

They'll sure work out a defence. Afterall, PR is their strong point. We dont have the resources, contacts to play the PR game at a level playing field with them.
Wiz - How does a spontaneous composer also allow the singers to also contribute to the tune?

Ha, writing a basic tune in 15 minutes, if that (singers who work with him have said only the basic tune is ready when they come to record and the rest is worked out over many improvisations/jamming), is hardly comparable to writing a complete song, arrangements included, in that time or less.  I don't think ARR said it himself with the intention of disparaging spontaneity (more of describing his own process); as for his fans they can interpret it whichever way they want.  It's their loss.  IR has had a great career, needless to say, and given lots of joy to the fans.

drunkenmunk wrote:Haha. What will be the fan defense is he is spontaneous in creating a tune. But he works around that tune and the end product takes 15-30 days or a couple of months. I've seen this being flaunted around. Maybe it's the truth but is spontaneity restricted to creating a tune? 

As opposed to? Coming up with a tune couple of notes a day?    If that is the yardstick used to define spontaneity i.e - humming the vague outline of what we finally come to know as the pallavi, then every musician ever is spontaneous because no one composes a tune by writing down Sa ga ri on Monday, Ga ma pa on Tuesday, next 3 notes on Wednesday and so on.

Talking about tuning & composing, here’s a related-digression (some thoughts and rants):
ARR has pretty evidently been making efforts to makes his songs ‘free-flowing’ and structure-less in form. The man himself has spoken about this and if I remember right, he correlates this to songs, and making songs, in the standard pallavi-charanam-pallavi format as something ordinary and mundane. Many of his fans, pretty clearly, have lapped this up and are generally very appreciative of such songs. Now, while I don’t really have any problems with any composer attempting to do something ‘different’, I have begun to feel a sort of boredom with songs increasingly getting created in this supposedly ‘format-less format’; the whole ‘non-cliché’ approach itself becoming a cliché of sorts. The experience these songs provide & their impact might be subject to the tastes of the listener. This aspect apart, I’ve been contemplating on the composing aspect with regard to such songs, as in, trying to put myself in the shoes of a composer (not ‘the’ composer) to view creation of these ‘free-flowing’ songs. And the reason I’ve been doing this is because I think these songs might be less-challenging to compose than songs in more fixed/conventional format. The way I see it, to create these ‘free-flowing’ songs, you’re likely to create couple of lines randomly, that needn’t necessarily have any logical flow – perhaps pick a scale/ragam, create a couple of lines, play around with the notes in the scale and create more lines randomly, let a day or two pass and create some more ‘sets’; eventually collate all these little pieces and play around with their ‘sequence’ and when something sounds nice, you’re actually done! (Yeah, add chords, percussions, loops, etc. and you should most likely have a ‘free-flowing song’; go on, give it a try!). I know I might be biased here towards one approach but personally, I view creating songs in the conventional pallavi/anupallavi/charanam format as more musically challenging because one is essentially working within a boundary of sorts which is bound to push ones musical abilities to bring out something interesting and fresh while still maintaining a structure or format. Flow and continuity, as opposed to what many might believe, happen to be really critical to creating such songs because if you’ve lost your hold mid-way over the structuring, you’re likely to lose the interest of the listener thereafter and also hamper the flow of the song as a whole. And the way Raaja seems to approach his songs is so fascinating because he’s likely to try different approaches in each (or many) aspect of a song – prelude, pallavi, interludes, charanams, postlude, rAgam, thAlam, basslines, percussion/rhythm, orchestration, etc. And the interesting things about Raaja’s approach don’t just end there. He’s always looking for different patterns in not just the pallavi/charanam tunes but also on how to bridge the two portions together which is a definite musical signature of the man. And doing all these things while keeping the structure and flow of the song intact and ‘cohesive’ and more critically, servicing the needs of the film’s situation, supporting and underlining the emotions in it… how’s that for some challenge to ones composing skills? Like someone quoted some years back in a Raaja discussion, it’s like choosing to dance on a tight-rope! Your steps and measurements have to be precise but if you’re going to just do a slow walk each time, nobody will bother to pay attention – you have to be creative! Rahman probably got sick and tired of the constraints the rope gave him and chose a more free-style-on-the-ground approach to give him more space to play. I’m not even saying one approach is better than the other. However, showering accolades over ‘format-less’ songs and short-charging songs in conventional format is unwarranted and unfair.