Re: Discussions on ARR

fring151 Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:53 pm

crimson king wrote:
fring151 wrote:Kochaiadiyan song - My verdict: Nenje ezhu 2. Not impressed.

Actually you lowered my expectations by comparing it to Nenje ezhu. This song was not as tedious and dull as Nenje, but still not very hummable. I couldn't recollect anything of the tune after listening once.

Ya, rather pedestrian. Typical Rajni intro song which admittedly doesn't offer too much room for creativity. Look at his intro songs over the years after he became superstar - 'Autokaaran', 'Adhanda idhanda Arunachalam naan thaan da' 'Oruvan oruvan mudhalali', ' Yen paeru padayappa'. I doubt if SPB himself likes singing such songs.

dilbert Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:17 pm

fring151 wrote:
crimson king wrote:
fring151 wrote:Kochaiadiyan song - My verdict: Nenje ezhu 2. Not impressed.

Actually you lowered my expectations by comparing it to Nenje ezhu. This song was not as tedious and dull as Nenje, but still not very hummable. I couldn't recollect anything of the tune after listening once.
Ya, rather pedestrian. Typical Rajni intro song which admittedly doesn't offer too much room for creativity. Look at his intro songs over the years after he became superstar - 'Autokaaran', 'Adhanda idhanda Arunachalam naan thaan da' 'Oruvan oruvan mudhalali', ' Yen paeru padayappa'. I doubt if SPB himself likes singing such songs.

oh wataa an observation !! Ignorance is bliss indeed for some.

fring151 Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:46 pm

dilbert wrote:
fring151 wrote:
crimson king wrote:
fring151 wrote:Kochaiadiyan song - My verdict: Nenje ezhu 2. Not impressed.

Actually you lowered my expectations by comparing it to Nenje ezhu. This song was not as tedious and dull as Nenje, but still not very hummable. I couldn't recollect anything of the tune after listening once.
Ya, rather pedestrian. Typical Rajni intro song which admittedly doesn't offer too much room for creativity. Look at his intro songs over the years after he became superstar - 'Autokaaran', 'Adhanda idhanda Arunachalam naan thaan da' 'Oruvan oruvan mudhalali', ' Yen paeru padayappa'. I doubt if SPB himself likes singing such songs.
oh wataa an observation !! Ignorance is bliss indeed for some.

I could clarify what I meant in more detail, but Rajnikanth is not important enough for me to warrant spending any more time on him.

dilbert Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:09 am

fring151 wrote:
dilbert wrote:
fring151 wrote:
crimson king wrote:
fring151 wrote:Kochaiadiyan song - My verdict: Nenje ezhu 2. Not impressed.

Actually you lowered my expectations by comparing it to Nenje ezhu. This song was not as tedious and dull as Nenje, but still not very hummable. I couldn't recollect anything of the tune after listening once.
Ya, rather pedestrian. Typical Rajni intro song which admittedly doesn't offer too much room for creativity. Look at his intro songs over the years after he became superstar - 'Autokaaran', 'Adhanda idhanda Arunachalam naan thaan da' 'Oruvan oruvan mudhalali', ' Yen paeru padayappa'. I doubt if SPB himself likes singing such songs.
oh wataa an observation !! Ignorance is bliss indeed for some.
I could clarify what I meant in more detail, but Rajnikanth is not important enough for me to warrant spending any more time on him.

Nor spending your time can re-write TFI history without RK! I so don't care about pretentious souls (RK haters) ignorance. Irritating part is there audacity to make sweeping statements about RK when they have no clue about that what they are talking .

Small request stick something which is meaningful will you?

fring151 Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:29 am

dilbert wrote:Nor spending your time can re-write TFI history without RK! I so don't care about pretentious souls (RK haters) ignorance. Irritating part is there audacity to make sweeping statements about RK when they have no clue about that what they are talking .

Small request stick something which is meaningful will you?

A quick browse through your posting history strongly suggests that the purpose of your hanging around here is largely to bait and get reactions (which you don't seem to get often btw). So end of conversation. Bye bye.

crimson king Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:56 am

There is a clear difference between Rajiini's 80s period - revolving mostly around remaking AB's films like Trishul or Muqaddar ka Siqandar - and the 90s where, starting from Annamalai if not earlier, the riches-to-rags-to-riches-again with vengeance against the villains became a common theme. The music for Rajini's films also changed in character during this period, with loaded dialogue and sloganeering becoming a part of the lyrics of the songs ("Oruvan Oruvan"/"Adhandha Idhandha Arunachalam" etc). I think people with some measure of detachment can discern this difference. And yes, I don't like these so called superstar films with the exception of Endhiran which was more or less a standard Shankar film. If that makes me too a hater, so be it, I couldn't care less, but I def prefer the Rajini of Puthu Kavithai/Dhalapathi, not to mention Aarilinthu Arubathu Varai, my favourite RK film for sure and a very touching film, much better than the overwrought Baghban.

dilbert Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:20 am

fring151 wrote:
dilbert wrote:Nor spending your time can re-write TFI history without RK! I so don't care about pretentious souls (RK haters) ignorance. Irritating part is there audacity to make sweeping statements about RK when they have no clue about that what they are talking .

Small request stick something which is meaningful will you?
A quick browse through your posting history strongly suggests that the purpose of your hanging around here is largely to bait and get reactions (which you don't seem to get often btw). So end of conversation. Bye bye.

So you are here to enlighten us with your mind numbing opinions? last thing I need is to engage in a discussion which is half baked just like its poster ! Get a life !

**plum** Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:35 am

Feel free to insult each other. It's not a reason we'll interfere or put the sock on, as long as you don't complain about each other.

irundhAlum, mudinjA, let's try to avoid clashes on "what you said" "what I said". Again, feel free to say that, if you think that's important.

dilbert Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:50 am

plum wrote:Feel free to insult each other. It's not a reason we'll interfere or put the sock on, as long as you don't complain about each other.

irundhAlum, mudinjA, let's try to avoid clashes on "what you said" "what I said". Again, feel free to say that, if you think that's important.

Moderator is gabbar singh!! kitne aadmi the

Dho Sarkar !!

fring151 Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:00 am

plum wrote:Feel free to insult each other. It's not a reason we'll interfere or put the sock on, as long as you don't complain about each other.

irundhAlum, mudinjA, let's try to avoid clashes on "what you said" "what I said". Again, feel free to say that, if you think that's important.

I don't see where I have insulted anyone. I simply made an observation that most of his comments are of the baiting sort and anyone can verify that. Plus I also made it quite clear in that post that I don't intend to continue the conversation.

**plum** Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:20 pm

Fring, it was just an attempt to defuse tension.Clumsy, it seems in retrospect.

We don't make any attempt to comment on the goings on in the forum. It's your forum. As long as things dont descend into extreme anarchy, we will be fine.

What I mean is, Groucho set a mandate early on that we wont try to moderate as much as possible in this forum. Thankfully, in one year, we havent needed to.

Groucho's guideline was everything is allowed as long as it is not gratuitous insult. I go one step further, and say, even that's fine as long as you guys handle it between yourselves.

Of course, some of these derail threads and jumble up nice discussions but that's an occupational hazard we'll let be.

Our experience so far is that our members are mature and handle disputes very effectively. In a sense, we are not needed but just thought I will reiterate the message.
No offence to any of you.

dilbert Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:00 pm

plum wrote:Fring, it was just an attempt to defuse tension.Clumsy, it seems in retrospect.

We don't make any attempt to comment on the goings on in the forum. It's your forum. As long as things dont descend into extreme anarchy, we will be fine.

What I mean is, Groucho set a mandate early on that we wont try to moderate as much as possible in this forum. Thankfully, in one year, we havent needed to.

Groucho's guideline was everything is allowed as long as it is not gratuitous insult. I go one step further, and say, even that's fine as long as you guys handle it between yourselves.

Of course, some of these derail threads and jumble up nice discussions but that's an occupational hazard we'll let be.

Our experience so far is that our members are mature and handle disputes very effectively. In a sense, we are not needed but just thought I will reiterate the message.
No offence to any of you.

Groucho and Plum are the defenders of SOAs ! preaching Lions to be Vegans what a cause what a cause !!

I would never say " Look who is talking " you continue Plum master !!

fring151 Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:39 pm

@Plum: Got it. Thanks for clarifying.

app_engine Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:48 pm

நம்ம இளையராஜா தளத்துல ரஹ்மான் இழை ஈ ஓட்டுறது பெரிய விஷயம் இல்ல...

ஆனா, ஹப்லயும் ஒரு மாசமா ஒரு போஸ்ட் கூட இல்லையே?

ரஹ்மான் ரசிகப்பெருமக்களும் ஹப் புறக்கணிப்பு செஞ்சுட்டாங்களா என்ன? இல்ல பெருசா சேதி ஒன்னும் இல்லையா?

சரி, நம்ம பங்குக்கு ஒன்னு போடுவோம்:
ஆஷா சூப்பர் சிங்கர்க்காக சென்னை வந்ததுக்கு ரஹ்மான் வரவேற்புச்செய்தி கொடுத்தார். டிவில காட்டினாங்க. மட்டுமல்ல, "செப்டம்பர் மாதம்" பாடலுக்கும் ஆஷா ரொம்ப சந்தோஷப்பட்டாங்க!

app_engine Thu Nov 07, 2013 11:20 pm

Kamal calls ARR great

Kamal wrote:
Cinematic greats like Adoor Gopalakrishnan, G. Aravindan, NTR, Mani Ratnam, A.R. Rahman and Ilayaraja are for me the torch-bearers in India’s celluloid history. Rajnikant, Chiranjeevi, Mammooty and Mohanlal have lit up Indian cinema on the global radar.

crimson king Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:19 am

I know he didn't possibly mean to include all the greats but where is Nadigar Thilagam and where is Kavignar Kannadasan? What is this, Kamal? Razz

Surely, if he can remember to mention Chiranjeevi and NTR, he can remember the name of Sivaji sir.

And I may or may not be alone in doing so, but I object much more to the inclusion of the name of Mani Ratnam in this group. He is a good film maker and that's it. I personally believe he is hugely overrated and has depended on the music of Ilayaraja and Rahman to tie up the loose ends in his movies. Just watch Agni Natchatiram without Raja's score and Prabhu and Karthik's passionate performances and you will probably find a cliched and tiresome film. I don't even know why Nayagan should be included in TIME's 100. There would surely be a 100 better English films than that and I would much rather watch Sangeetham Srinivsasa Rao's Aboorva Sagotharargal than Nayakan.

fring151 Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:27 am

Lol. Glad to see another person who thinks Mani Ratnam is overrated. From the admittedly limited number of acclaimed movies of his that I have watched, I wiil go out on a limb and say he doesn't write any memorable dialogues - Nayagan might be an exception, but Balakumaran co-wrote it and I am guessing Kamal also made inputs since MR was a noob at the time. He also sucks at comedy and action sequences. He also used to milk sentiments in the IR period, but was over dependent on the score. Watch the Mouna rAgam ending and imagine how bland it would be without a score of that quality, particularly the last couple of minutes.

I like Nayagan mainly because of Kamal's acting and the score. The only urupadiyAna movie of his I have seen is Alaipayuthey which also fortunately had one of ARR's greatest soundtracks. I won't comment on Bombay or Anjali because, believe it or not, I haven't seen either. cool3

On the article itself, it is hardly surprising that he includes ARR in the list, but it IS strange that he omits Sivaji's name. And though a 'fan' of Kamal, no thanks saar, we don't need to give any more preferential treatment to the film industry than we already do.

crimson king Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:39 am

Anjali was not bad at all. Bombay worked at that time because the memory of the riots was still fresh on people's minds and it did not handle it too crudely either. I don't know how much I'd like it now if I watched it again. Mouna Raagam and Alai Payuthey had their emotional moments and are the two films I find most convincing but they had two great music directors giving an all time great score and I do think that helped tide over the places where the movies slacked in tempo.

Nayakan was reasonably gripping but the way Varadhabhai justifies his actions in the film was done in a very crude and overly moralistic way. It was almost as if all the corruption and crime around him somehow justified his becoming an underworld don. For Mumbai's citizens, who bore the brunt of the underworld menace in the 80s and 90s, that conclusion is very difficult to accept. As if those small time hawkers very gladly paid haftha to the goondas! Godfather handled this moral ambiguity in a more refined way, even though that too came off a bit glorified compared to the book. RGV may have made some rank turds but at least Sathya was a much more authentic depiction of the gangster scene in Mumbai. He made it in the 90s when totally dumbed down masala absolutely ruled the roost in Bollywood and still delivered a hit. So much for MR's ambition and daring.

MR may have been inspired by Godfather but he didn't ultimately have the guts to break free from simplified and cliched melodramatic devices being used by other, less pretentious mass market filmmakers. Whether in Nayakan or his other films. Beneath the technical craft is usually a very simplistic set of ideas and, as you mentioned, often banal dialogues.

By the way, in an article on Nayakan that appeared a few months back (I think it was Hindu), there was much talk of how MR and Kamal defied the producer's commercial considerations and pulled out all stops to make a great film. And it took the commenters to point out that Ilayaraja added just as much to the film with his songs and background score. Maybe it's taken for granted that he was already world class long since while some of his collaborators publicly expressed their aspirations to get there with mixed success in implementation.

Drunkenmunk Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:16 am

He is speaking as the Chairman of FICCI and representing South India. Hence he has to sell ARR, MR, NTR and Chiranjeevi there. But no Sivaji, no Rajkumar where he has NTR is crime.

fring151 Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:15 am

DM - Ya, Kamal is obviously wearing his FICCI hat here.

CK - In Nayagan the moral ambiguity in the brothel scene was quite tastefully depicted - though as always IR lifts it to a different level. But the rowdyism, goondagiri aspect was very mass- not all that different from Basha for that matter. I wonder why BRangan worships the man! Of course now he has written a book on him and all that, but how and why did he get smitten in the first place?

IMO Godfather 1 is somewhat overrated - the book was so much better. Godfather 2 is entirely another matter though.

crimson king Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:37 am

Exactly, and I honestly find Baasha more palatable in some ways because at least the makers were clear they wanted to make this sort of movie only. Not just BR, lots of critics heap praises on MR for whatever reason. It's not as if his films are bad but I don't see what exactly lifts him into another tier above the other mainstream type directors. Agree about Godfather too, prefer Godfather 2, especially the scenes showing the young Vito Corleone which De Niro enacts brilliantly.

crimson king Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:40 am

Consider also that BR is fond of and has often defended GVM. His films may be shot in a classy way but the ones I have watched were sketchy and lacked resolution after promising more. It's not that I don't like style for the sake of it, I love the Tim Burton Batman films. But MR/GVM films just lack much emotional complexity beneath the technical excellence, they are only presented to 'look' superior to masala films. And how much of that should be credited to them and how much to the abilities of IR, PC Sreeram, etc.

fring151 Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:26 pm

That's also my point about MR and GVM - Style without much substance. BRangan and other critics being prisoners of their own devices probably feel compelled to praise anyone who rises even an inch above the rest of the herd.

Godfather 2 was also Al Pacino's most masterful performance ever. And it had such brilliant dialogues.

Wizzy Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:05 am

He is a good film maker and that's it. I personally believe he is hugely overrated and has depended on the music of Ilayaraja and Rahman to tie up the loose ends in his movies. Just watch Agni Natchatiram without Raja's score and Prabhu and Karthik's passionate performances and you will probably find a cliched and tiresome film.

really? outside of TN he might be overrated. wouldn't hold depending on music against him, most of the successful directors did the same and you could use the same logic against Braja/BM/Mahendran et al.

From the admittedly limited number of acclaimed movies of his that I have watched, I wiil go out on a limb and say he doesn't write any memorable dialogues - Nayagan might be an exception, but Balakumaran co-wrote it and I am guessing Kamal also made inputs since MR was a noob at the time. He also sucks at comedy and action sequences.

gawd,you have reduced him to Sundar.C/Santhanbharthi levels silent

I won't comment on Bombay or Anjali because, believe it or not, I haven't seen either.

Anjali would feature in his top 3.

Nayakan was reasonably gripping but the way Varadhabhai justifies his actions in the film was done in a very crude and overly moralistic way. It was almost as if all the corruption and crime around him somehow justified his becoming an underworld don.

end of the day it was a commercial philm, would TN movie watchers accepted the reality of Varadharaja Mudaliyar aka Velu Naicker being a sweet talker/running brothels/kalla sarayam/stealing stuff by greasing chowkidars??

But the rowdyism, goondagiri aspect was very mass- not all that different from Basha for that matter

[in thambi Madhavan voice] eppo naan enna seiya bounce

fring151 Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:56 pm

Lol. Wizzy saar, I will address your points.

wizzy wrote:really? outside of TN he might be overrated. wouldn't hold depending on music against him, most of the successful directors did the same and you could use the same logic against Braja/BM/Mahendran et al.

I have mainly watched only Kamal movies of the 80s and a few Rajni movies and famous hits like Mouna raagam etc. So that makes it Sigappu rojakkal and tik tik tik (BRaja), Moondram pirai and sathi leelavathi (BM). I have seen parts of Johnny mainly to see the context of the BGM and that's about it. So with this disclosure, I will say, yes, IMO all these movies did depend on IR's BGM AND Kamal's acting prowess. However I did feel that they, barring Tik tik tik, had less banal dialogues and bolder characters and storylines - the shamelessly philandering husband in Sathi Leelavathi, the psychopathic killer in Sigappu rojakkal. Moondra pirai was also shot very well and had a beautiful, high-risk (for the director) climax that did NOT depend on the score. One general observation about many 80s movies is that they are often plagued by bad editing where one scene abruptly cuts to the next. I have no idea why this is the case. Maybe someone can explain?

I am also very biased against Mohan movies in general because I can never accept someone who doesn't speak his/her own dialogues as an actor Mad

, so that's another reason why I could not endure mouna rAgam.

wizzy wrote:
From the admittedly limited number of acclaimed movies of his that I have watched, I wiil go out on a limb and say he doesn't write any memorable dialogues - Nayagan might be an exception, but Balakumaran co-wrote it and I am guessing Kamal also made inputs since MR was a noob at the time. He also sucks at comedy and action sequences.
gawd,you have reduced him to Sundar.C/Santhanbharthi levels

I pointed out specific aspects of his style which are tiresome to me and I do believe these are valid criticisms. I honestly cannot recall any memorable dialogues or sequences from MR movies (I have seen) like I can from Devar magan, Sindhu Bhairavi, Mahanadhi, Salangai oli, Aval Appadithaan, Anbe sivam, Kurudhi punal, Hey Ram (yes, I am a KF Smile

) or some of the Sivaji and Hindi movies of yesteryear I have watched. (I am not even bringing in Hollywood). Similarly his attempts at comedy are weak. If there are indeed such instances of great dialogues or action/comedy in his movies I have missed (Agni, ,Bombay, Anjali or ones post Aaytha ezguthu) I am more than willing to reconsider my criticism. However, limited sample space is not an issue here and my appraisal and fault finding cannot be dismissed in the same way we can shrug off someone generalising or criticising IR based on a handful of movies or songs.

wizzy wrote:end of the day it was a commercial philm, would TN movie watchers accepted the reality of Varadharaja Mudaliyar aka Velu Naicker being a sweet talker/running brothels/kalla sarayam/stealing stuff by greasing chowkidars??

That's exactly my point as well Laughing

. All said and done, he is a commercial film maker who doesn't really take risks and the near universal critical acclaim he gets for being 'different', 'unconventional' etc are what I find bemusing. Again, I don't mean technical aspects here.

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