Discussions on ARR

Wizzy wrote:

He is a good film maker and that's it. I personally believe he is hugely overrated and has depended on the music of Ilayaraja and Rahman to tie up the loose ends in his movies.  Just watch Agni Natchatiram without Raja's score and Prabhu and Karthik's passionate performances and you will probably find a cliched and tiresome film.

really? outside of TN he might be overrated. wouldn't hold depending on music against him, most of the successful directors did the same and you could use the same logic against Braja/BM/Mahendran et al.

From the admittedly limited number of acclaimed movies of his that I have watched, I wiil go out on a limb and say he doesn't write any memorable dialogues - Nayagan might be an exception, but Balakumaran co-wrote it and I am guessing Kamal also made inputs since MR was a noob at the time. He also sucks at comedy and action sequences.

gawd,you have reduced him to Sundar.C/Santhanbharthi levels  

I won't comment on Bombay or Anjali because, believe it or not, I haven't seen either.

Anjali would feature in his top 3.

Nayakan was reasonably gripping but the way Varadhabhai justifies his actions in the film was done in a very crude and overly moralistic way.  It was almost as if all the corruption and crime around him somehow justified his becoming an underworld don.

end of the day it was a commercial philm, would TN movie watchers accepted the reality of Varadharaja Mudaliyar aka Velu Naicker being a sweet talker/running brothels/kalla sarayam/stealing stuff by greasing chowkidars??

But the rowdyism, goondagiri aspect was very mass- not all that different from Basha for that matter

[in thambi Madhavan voice] eppo naan enna seiya 

Oh, I missed all this, sorry.  Yeah, just one point, it is the media that has constantly held up MR as being somehow cut from a different cloth as compared to the other directors and I don't see that that is necessarily the case.  Yes, possibly he is more overrated outside TN than within TN where people may not necessarily consider him better than BR or BM.  Outside TN he is terribly overrated.  I don't see how his achievements are greater than Govind Nihalani or Ram Gopal Varma (yes, RGV, remember Sathya), both of whom get far less credit than MR.  MR is like a very subtle and sophi version of Chetan Bhagat.  He tries to talk about topical subjects that interest the audience (at the time of release) but without going too deeply into the subject.  Nor have I ever found the drama in his films as engaging as in, say, Aalaya Mani.  On that count, I would give a lot of credit to BR for Mudhal Mariyadhai.  Again, I think Appu Raja is a much more engaging film than any MR has made.  It captures Appu's metamorphosis quite brilliantly (maybe Kamal's career best role).  Just because it is shot in a circus setting, 'critics' don't like to give credit to Sangeetham Srinivasa Rao.  I thought the way Unnai Ninachen was picturised (esp the second interlude) was very poignant.  Mani is so Hollywood and all he seems to fight shy of emotions..and at the same time can't really embrace their realism or ambivalence.

I second that. Though this is a thread on ARR and not a thread plugging your miscellaneous stuff, I'll flug my post on Aboorva Sagodharargal  http://thedrunkenmonk.wordpress.com/2013/05/19/aboorva-sagodharargal/

Superb review.  Never thought of the MGR angle at all.  You have brought back memories (haven't watched this film in years; before that I wore out the tape repeating it endlessly!).  Janakaraj indeed resembles Inspector Clouseau except he fails all the time.  Such brilliant characters and the comedy element never detracts from the mission of the avenging angel, or rather, dwarf.  As you said, Appu's inferiority complex is brought out very effectively in just those few scenes from when his 'girlfriend' disillusions him.

சட்டென்று மாறுது வானிலை

ஆஸ்கர் விருது பெற்ற ஏ.ஆர்.ரஹ்மானின் இசையில் அதன்பிறகு கடல், மரியான் உள்பட பல படங்கள் வெளிவந்தபோதும், முதல் ரவுண்டில் வெளியானது போன்ற ஹிட் பாடல்கள் வெளியாகவில்லை. அதனால் ஒரு சரியான ஹிட் கொடுத்து விட வேண்டும் என்று அவர் எதிர்பார்த்துக்கொண்டிருந்தபோதுதான் கெளதம்மேனன் தனது சட்டென்று மாறுது வானிலை படத்துக்கு அவரை ஒப்பந்தம் செய்தார்.

இதனால் ஏற்கனவே கெளதமுடன் இணைந்த விண்ணைத்தாண்டி வருவாயா படத்தில் கொடுத்தது போன்று மறுபடியும் ஒரு மெகா ஹிட் கொடுக்கத் தயாராகி விட்டார் ஏ.ஆர்.ரஹ்மான். அதனால் அப்படத்துக்கான முதல் பாடலை லாஸ் ஏஞ்சல்ஸில் இருந்து இசையமைத்து அனுப்பினார் ரஹ்மான். அப்பாடலை சிம்பு-பல்லவியை வைத்து தற்போது படமாக்கி வருகிறார் கெளதம்.

I didn't want to derail the "Anything about IR" thread. So I am continuing the ARR related discussion initiated there by kamalaakarsh and others. Regarding the book, it is curious ARR was interested in jazz at that point. Because I don't really see any jazz influence in his 90s output at all. Come to think of it, perhaps the only jazz based song I can recall is the title song of Sillendru oru kAdhal. It is another matter that the singer annoys the crap out of me, but the chords are pretty cool and the song is not bad at all, though the singer almost convinces you it IS. All you wannabe Peters and Stellas, listen to Janaki madam to learn how to ooze attitude, sensuality and sexiness without trying desperately to sound like the next Christina  Aguilera.

Also  interesting to note his interest in Pink Floyd. Interesting because again, I can't detect any influences at all till about "Aaromale". IMO, his early composing interests - that which made him famous and loved all over India - seemed to be centered around rAga based melodic ideas and American pop format of the 80s and early 90s. There is hardly any WCM, jazz or rock influence there.

He supposedly also loves Chick Correa and the only Chick Correa based track I have heard that had anything remotely to do with ARR is Kalakalamaga vaazhum!   On the other hand, IR was doing a sort of Tamizh jazz even in the 80s - Kannan Vandhu Paada or Oru Poongavanam.  The jazz quotient is more authentic now in songs like Kalvane (or Tu Bole from Jaane Tu Ya Jaane Na for an ARR example).  I hear influence of MJ, Talk Talk, Police, Enya, Vangelis in ARR's work.  Even in 90s - Kalaignan - IR leaned on 80s pop rock like Toto/Def Leppard.  However, there is a rock element in Kannum Kannum Kollai from Thiruda Thiruda and again there is a strongly WCM based movement in one of the interludes of Veerapandi Kottaiyile.  Again, nothing in any way more advanced or authentic than IR.  I pointed to that All The Time song from Nadodi Thendral in the other thread (repeating the question, who is that foreign actress?).  What IR made Malgudi Shubha do as playback for a British lady, ARR made his singers do generally as a matter of rule.  Apart from the synth, rapping, modern beats one of the very immediately noticeable differences between the two in the 90s was the anglicised pronunciation of Tamil in ARR songs.  IR has now allowed Ramya NSK to do that.

crimson king wrote:He supposedly also loves Chick Correa and the only Chick Correa track I have heard that had anything remotely to do with ARR is Kalakalamaga vaazhum! 

News to me! So which Chick Correa track is KAlakAlamAga based off?

About the anglicized pronunciation, it has never stood out for me. At least the veterans like SPB, Chitra seemed to continue singing in their own style.

Actually I meant to write Chick Correa BASED track.  I cannot say any specific track but the chords, the keyboard tone evoked CC to me.  Maybe more the Return to Forever days rather than Correa and the Electric Band of the 80s.

A R Rahman himself used to often sing in an anglicized way, viz Indha Arabic Kadaloram.  Also Suresh Peters definitely.  Shahul Hameed could sound both raw and rustic viz Usilampatti and anglicized as on Oorvasi.  Just the way he pronounced Oorvasi and then oosi pola odambu was all so anglicized to me. He also introduced Anupama who sang in that fashion on Chandralekha or July Madham.  Harris Jeyaraja carried over that approach when he arrived on the scene.  I agree that Rahman didn't make the veterans sing like that.

crimson king wrote:A R Rahman himself used to often sing in an anglicized way, viz Indha Arabic Kadaloram.  Also Suresh Peters definitely.  Shahul Hameed could sound both raw and rustic viz Usilampatti and anglicized as on Oorvasi.  Just the way he pronounced Oorvasi and then oosi pola odambu was all so anglicized to me. He also introduced Anupama who sang in that fashion on Chandralekha or July Madham. 

Point there. Which leads to a very interesting question. So where are all these singers that ARR supposedly introduced? Does anyone remember them apart from crimson king and a few other serious music followers? What is their legacy? The introduction of fresh voices and "giving opportunities" to upcoming youngsters is one of the biggest praises heaped on ARR. Note that IR is often compared unfavourably to ARR's large heartedness in this regard. So who introduced Chitra and groomed her to be the legend she is? Who almost single-handedly crafted Janaki's legacy? What about Uma Ramanan and Malaysia Vasudevan or Mano, who I don't mind at all unlike many (most? all?) other forum members. I am not including SPB and Yesudas as they were both arguably big names even before IR's arrival. But even so, whose songs do we most remember both of them for? 

Does introduction of fresh voices simply mean using new singers for a handful of songs and moving on to even fresher voices? I think ARR himself admitted once that the audience tend to get bored easily, hence the need to keep introducing "fresh voices". So why do ARR fanboys make such a big deal out of this and pin it down to his large heartedness and magnanimity rather than being more honest about the reason? Also why this expectation from an MD (specifically IR) that they keep giving chances to newbies. A composer, like a company manager has every right to select the best person for the job - if IR decides only SPB and Janaki are capable of rendering RojAvai thAlAttum thendral to satisfaction, so be it.

Indeed.  If anything, ARR gave a fresh lease of life to singers who were either struggling to hit the bigtime (Unni Menon, Minmini, Hariharan) or weren't really involved in it before (Sujatha, Shrinivas) but not rank newbs.  Shahul Hameed died young IIRC but why exactly ARR stopped using Suresh Peters or Anupama after a few years is an important question. I think it is addressed in that book.  It seems to tie in with his overall philosophy of making 'sound' paramount.  After sometime the audience gets overly familiar with one bunch of singers, so he turns it over to a new bunch for sometime and then all over again.  That is ok as far as commercial film music goes.  But to accept that argument is to deny that IR elevated film music above this 'commercial' role.  He explored the singers he worked with just as any other instrument and brought out the full depth of their repertoire over a period of time.  Though Chithra has rendered some superb numbers for ARR like Thodha Thodha Malarndhadhenna or Kehna Hi Kya, I prefer the (slightly lower) pitch IR used to make her sing in as it brought out the husky undertone in her voice.  As I said earlier in the discussion, in toto ARR's approach has amounted to merely gratifying the audience's short term needs and sacrificed some measure of the artistic/aesthetic aspects of film music.  Hindi music may have hit the pits in the 80s but Tamil music hadn't.  Through MSV and IR, it still retained some measure of substance which is now more or less gone.  I would not necessarily blame ARR for that, certainly not him alone in isolation, but he did open the Pandora's Box.  Take It Easy Policy, to quote one of his own (Vairam-penned) motifs. There are many interesting parallels between ARR and RDB, including and not limited to a certain impatience with the old guard.  RDB too may have been very adventurous and projected a different sound but I have personally never felt convinced that his grasp of raga based melody had the same depth as Naushad/SJ/Roshan/Madan Mohan etc.  Like ARR with Deva/Sirpi, he did help stop HFM falling into complete decline for a while before LP, Kalyanji Anandji, Bappi took over and finished the job.

Sharon Prabhakar has sung a song for IR in Kamagni.  Malgudi Shubha rendered All The Time brilliantly.  Usha Uthup got songs off and on.  While the bulk of his songs went to SPB/SJ/KJY/Chithra (later on Mano and Swarnalatha too), he did not restrict himself to ONLY those singers.  It is again the volume of his output that works against him and incites such generalisations.  I do not blame the audience for generalising because they come to watch a film and listen to songs for entertainment.  But arguments based on such superficial perceptions should not be furthered as if they reflect the truth.

crimson king wrote: As I said earlier in the discussion, in toto ARR's approach has amounted to merely gratifying the audience's short term needs and sacrificed some measure of the artistic/aesthetic aspects of film music.

I would cut him some slack on this. Success is paramount for most people in most walks of life. Many mathematicians and physicists are forced to abandon research fields they are passionate about and switch to hot topics like string theory because that's where the moolah is. ARR evidently works hard and gives his best on every album and song and that is to his credit, irrespective of whether he does it for artistic purposes or simply to ensure it appeals to the largest possible cross section of his fans. But I am interested in more interesting questions, like so, what are all the rules that he has broken which everyone (his fans) like to keep talking about, most often in generalities and very rarely in specifics or with concrete examples.

Of course.  I don't blame ARR for choosing that approach.  What I object to is recasting that approach as the ideal.  That's misguided.  What is the need to insist all film music to be cut down to its size, musically enriched film songs also have a positive influence on listeners.  When I was growing up, nobody told me to gravitate to old Bollywood songs.  I just outgrew the empty, boring Kumar Sanu/Udit stuff very quickly and latched onto the oldies.

Continuing on this thread of discussion, the significant contribution of ARR to film music - the Pandora moment - is to break the rule that music should have structure and organisation.  If you take the second interlude in Kadhalikum Pennin, there is a very Carnatic sounding veena passage.  There is no real attempt to resolve this contradiction (in an otherwise highly Westernised song).  It's just there for 'feel', it sounds good there, not too jarring so it will pass.  Likewise, the sudden burst of Hindustani vocalise with harmonium in the first interlude of Kannalane or the folk chant in Snegidhane.  It never really BLENDS into the song, it's just there almost like a picture postcard to observe independently and move on.  Earlier, for the Hindi stalwarts as well as MSV and IR, achieving a blend was important. Whatever experimentation was done had to ultimately fit into the overall character of the music.  

Again, R D Burman did break this rule in several songs so once again, there are parallels between RDB and A R Rahman.  Fittingly ARR was the first recipient of the R D Burman award.   There is a cultural significance to their emergence at the respective junctures in HFM and TFM.  In a so-called "Musical biography of R D Burman" written no doubt by a staunch R D Burman fan, he was rather dismissive of 60s music, considering it too staid, predictable and symmetrical.  That is the juncture at which perceptions of IR's music also seemed to arrive by the early 90s even though he continued to experiment.  Because the audience had become too accustomed to his experiments and was not easily satisfied.  In this context, both RDB and ARR literally broke free and threw organisation out of the window.  

It is to ARR's credit that while his music may or may not work at the same level of the 90s, he has avoided getting staid and predictable in the manner that RDB seemed to have become as early as late 70s.  But in both cases, in seeking to emphasise sound rather than organisation and musicality, they ended up opening the field to less talented music directors who had/have a field day picking up the latest loops and recycling songs as if on an assembly line.  

It may appear in hindsight that RDB did not favour lifting singers with limited repertoire to the top but please consider that he was also slightly anti-melody and preferred Kishore over Rafi.  There is an underlying theme in both cases of preferring mad vigour over elegance with formal underpinnings.

crimson king wrote:Continuing on this thread of discussion, the significant contribution of ARR to film music - the Pandora moment - is to break the rule that music should have structure and organisation.  If you take the second interlude in Kadhalikum Pennin, there is a very Carnatic sounding veena passage.  There is no real attempt to resolve this contradiction (in an otherwise highly Westernised song).  It's just there for 'feel', it sounds good there, not too jarring so it will pass.  Likewise, the sudden burst of Hindustani vocalise with harmonium in the first interlude of Kannalane or the folk chant in Snegidhane.  It never really BLENDS into the song, it's just there almost like a picture postcard to observe independently and move on.

Very astute observations. I am in agreement with all the examples except maybe "Kaadhalikkum Pennin". Do you reckon that perhaps Raja's approach to that interlude, assuming he chose to have a Veena passage there would have been to make it sound westernized in keeping with the overall feel of the song, ala say the Nenjathai killAdhe BGM which is one of my fav instance of westernized (electric?) Veena. Or maybe he would have harmonized or written a counter melody to it to lend a more fusion/western feel? But somehow I am still unable to comprehend how this is very different from IR's often used approach of interrupting a torrent of strings arranged in a very baroque fashion with a short Carnatic flute passage. Ok it feels different, but I am at a loss to put that feeling in words.

Excellent discussion guys. Keep it going. Sorry to divert, but this is Finders Keepers stuffs from Sugar guy and Vasanthasena: https://www.facebook.com/srinivas.singercomposer/posts/10202334682722430?stream_ref=10

Drunkenmunk wrote:Excellent discussion guys. Keep it going. Sorry to divert, but this is Finders Keepers stuffs from Sugar guy and Vasanthasena: https://www.facebook.com/srinivas.singercomposer/posts/10202334682722430?stream_ref=10

I assume it is the MD James Vasanthan who comments in that FB page with that name...

Does he really understand what he is typing?

fring151 wrote:

crimson king wrote:Continuing on this thread of discussion, the significant contribution of ARR to film music - the Pandora moment - is to break the rule that music should have structure and organisation.  If you take the second interlude in Kadhalikum Pennin, there is a very Carnatic sounding veena passage.  There is no real attempt to resolve this contradiction (in an otherwise highly Westernised song).  It's just there for 'feel', it sounds good there, not too jarring so it will pass.  Likewise, the sudden burst of Hindustani vocalise with harmonium in the first interlude of Kannalane or the folk chant in Snegidhane.  It never really BLENDS into the song, it's just there almost like a picture postcard to observe independently and move on.

Very astute observations. I am in agreement with all the examples except maybe "Kaadhalikkum Pennin". Do you reckon that perhaps Raja's approach to that interlude, assuming he chose to have a Veena passage there would have been to make it sound westernized in keeping with the overall feel of the song, ala say the Nenjathai killAdhe BGM which is one of my fav instance of westernized (electric?) Veena. Or maybe he would have harmonized or written a counter melody to it to lend a more fusion/western feel? But somehow I am still unable to comprehend how this is very different from IR's often used approach of interrupting a torrent of strings arranged in a very baroque fashion with a short Carnatic flute passage. Ok it feels different, but I am at a loss to put that feeling in words.

Now I don't recall that exact Nenjathai Killadhe passage as I have not watched the film.  However, if I do consider Poomalaye where a veena passage follows after the usual glorious strings in the first interlude, it is accompanied by contrapuntal keyboards that keep the baroque connection going.  Further, the charanam immediately begins with a very Indian phrase of melody and tabla (even in the second interlude, he brings back veena to harmonise with the violins and hums a "la la la" to complete the 'loop').  Note here that in the NEPV and Megha soundtracks he avoided Indian instruments because the melodies too didn't have a strong Carnatic flavour.  It used to work in his music because the melody was Indian; the harder part was actually fitting baroque orchestration to these melodies which he had already achieved anyway.        

Whereas, ARR as is his wont goes into a full Carnatic flourish on the veena with only a soft bassline and drums to keep the Western connection.  My real problem arises when the veena passage is over or rather the way it ends.  It ends on an irresolute note and there is just a short violin section in the background before vocals resume.  It is not clear to me what exactly is added to the song by having the veena at that juncture.  If it is resolved into some fitting pattern, it would be one thing but ARR, as he often does, never attempts to fit it.  It's just there.  This technique was a godsend for later MDs as they found fusion considerably simplified for them.  Insert a heavily Carnatic passage in a westernised song sans prelude and then drop it with a thud to return to the melody.

Drunkenmunk wrote:Excellent discussion guys. Keep it going. Sorry to divert, but this is Finders Keepers stuffs from Sugar guy and Vasanthasena: https://www.facebook.com/srinivas.singercomposer/posts/10202334682722430?stream_ref=10

Good replies there from Subashree Thanikachalam.

app_engine wrote:

Drunkenmunk wrote:Excellent discussion guys. Keep it going. Sorry to divert, but this is Finders Keepers stuffs from Sugar guy and Vasanthasena: https://www.facebook.com/srinivas.singercomposer/posts/10202334682722430?stream_ref=10

I assume it is the MD James Vasanthan who comments in that FB page with that name...

Does he really understand what he is typing?

shantanu moitra wrote:On Roja - "It was rooted in Indian sensibilities, but was SO international (Pudhu Vellai mazhai plays after this)"

Well, but, of course. 

Propaganda - "Before Pancham, there was either western-based or Raga-based song; they were never synthesized. Similarly with Rahman".

ARR on KM conservatory "It is also a very selfish thing. In 10 yrs if I want to write an orchestral piece, I don't want to go to Prague or London. I want our own orchestra"

crimson king wrote:Now I don't recall that exact Nenjathai Killadhe passage as I have not watched the film.  However, if I do consider Poomalaye where a veena passage follows after the usual glorious strings in the first interlude, it is accompanied by contrapuntal keyboards that keep the baroque connection going.  Further, the charanam immediately begins with a very Indian phrase of melody and tabla (even in the second interlude, he brings back veena to harmonise with the violins and hums a "la la la" to complete the 'loop').  Note here that in the NEPV and Megha soundtracks he avoided Indian instruments because the melodies too didn't have a strong Carnatic flavour.  It used to work in his music because the melody was Indian; the harder part was actually fitting baroque orchestration to these melodies which he had already achieved anyway.        

Whereas, ARR as is his wont goes into a full Carnatic flourish on the veena with only a soft bassline and drums to keep the Western connection.  My real problem arises when the veena passage is over or rather the way it ends.  It ends on an irresolute note and there is just a short violin section in the background before vocals resume.  It is not clear to me what exactly is added to the song by having the veena at that juncture.  If it is resolved into some fitting pattern, it would be one thing but ARR, as he often does, never attempts to fit it.  It's just there.  This technique was a godsend for later MDs as they found fusion considerably simplified for them.  Insert a heavily Carnatic passage in a westernised song sans prelude and then drop it with a thud to return to the melody.

I do agree on the Veena part. I am actually more interested in his (IR's) flute usage (as it is one of his staple instruments) - specifically I was wondering about the first interlude of Ilaya nila where the carnatic flute follows the guitar solo, but hearing it again, the melody could pass for Indian OR western add or subtract a couple of subtle inflections. Plus chord arpeggios accompany it, so it does not feel like it simply dropped out of the sky. It would be a fun exercise to observe his flute usage in such western based songs and watch out for these little things and whether his approach is always consistent.

And speaking of the flute, I have heard it claimed that Rahman even gave a fresh lease of life to this instrument in film songs. So far, that makes it two instruments  Rahman revived or introduced to TFM- Bass guitar and flute. Vera ennalAm? Tabla, violin also'nu solli own goal pOdAma irukkanum pAthu, though ARR has already taken a step in that direction by claiming there are no violin players in India in that interview to the Bengali composer. Patthu varushathukku apram, he wants to write an orchestral piece'nu vera hint kuduthurkkar mela. Who knows, claim pannAlum pannuvAnga, especially if Raja ceases to be as popular as he is now 10 years down the line, anything is on the cards. Edhavdhu ezhudha pOi, adhu symphony Agi, symphony tamizhan'nu pattam vAngipuduvAr. Sorry to be cynical, you know I like ARR too, but the amount of dissembling and the general indifference and/or willing consumption of propaganda as truth by most people is reaching a whole new level these days.

app_engine wrote:

Drunkenmunk wrote:Excellent discussion guys. Keep it going. Sorry to divert, but this is Finders Keepers stuffs from Sugar guy and Vasanthasena: https://www.facebook.com/srinivas.singercomposer/posts/10202334682722430?stream_ref=10

I assume it is the MD James Vasanthan who comments in that FB page with that name...

Does he really understand what he is typing?

Is JV out on bail or FB'ing from Puzhal? wish someone there takes the mickey out by asking him to list out top 10 albums composed by RDB   

idhula ennannA:
"Panchamda passed the baton to ARR"

ennamO avar sorgathulErundhu iRangi vandhu vArisu aRivichuttu pOnA mAdhiri, Dei, nInga commission paNNa video dhAnedA adhu? ennamO RDBye vandhu sonnA mAdhiri edhukku bilduppu?