Discussions on ARR

crimson king wrote:

Drunkenmunk wrote:They feel he was challenged better in Hindi than Tamil. IMO, that is true post say 2003. But point is, I personally like his Tamil works in the 90s and early 2000s better than his Hindi works. Delhi 6 and RDB are a couple of exceptions. But to say he was challenged more only in Hindi artistically is debatable and kinda undermines his own legacy with the likes of Mani and Bharathiraja (Kizhakku Chemmaiyile, Andhi Mandharai, Karuthamma and even Kangalal Kaidhu Sei though a dokku movie had fantastic songs) and a Duet with KB.

These folks have SURELY got to be HFM rather than TFM listeners.   Then of course they would have an (indifferent) opinion on his TFM scores without even listening to it.  

They are Tamils who proudly say they are Tamils  and yes, Kadhalan BGM is quite intricate in that, he takes two song cues and sticks in a couple of counterpoints. Very well done.

What, Tamil people who pretend to always like his Hindi songs more?  That sounds like pseudo-snobbery.  

crimson king wrote:What, Tamil people who pretend to always like his Hindi songs more?  That sounds like pseudo-snobbery.  

Not that way. They like all his songs. They just feel Hindi films challenged him to come up with complex, better music than Tamil. And these are the same fans who hold Rajnikanth aloft in the same breath and don't like Kamal. I suspect it is due to the fact that Kamal has never recognized ARR as a legend, while Rajni has.

Heh, I guess I would need to re-learn my understanding of complex to make sense of that.  He did a bunch of historical/time period films in Hindi - Lagaan, Jodha Akbar, that Bose film - maybe that's what they consider complex.

Drunkenmunk wrote:

crimson king wrote:What, Tamil people who pretend to always like his Hindi songs more?  That sounds like pseudo-snobbery.  

Not that way. They like all his songs. They just feel Hindi films challenged him to come up with complex, better music than Tamil. And these are the same fans who hold Rajnikanth aloft in the same breath and don't like Kamal. I suspect it is due to the fact that Kamal has never recognized ARR as a legend, while Rajni has.

Can any one of you , post that full interview here please.

If you mean the interview with Debjyoti Misra, here it is:

crimson king wrote:If you mean the interview with Debjyoti Misra, here it is:

Wow , a thread for this interview? IR fans is reacting like teenage girls for an interview which ARR gave to promote his concert.

Guy who is interviewing him asked questions with his own concluded opinions. Its not ARR's fault.

crimson king wrote:errm, well, I do like Chupke Se more than Snegidhane  mainly because Sadhana Sargam emotes better on the Hindi song, being more familiar with the lyrics.  And then I have that thing against Vairam, his lyrics don't work for me.   I want lyrics to sound phonetically pleasing over and above their poetic flavour or meaning.   I much preferred Vaali, would rather IR and ARR had both worked much more with him and much less with Vairam.   

Haha... Snegidhane was probably the wrong example, it after all has the ghastly 'Olive Ennai poosi' and admittedly cringe-worthy pronunciation by SS, so I won't judge you for liking Chupke se more . But aye udi udi was murder, and I know many Tam ARR worshippers with zero indhi knowledge, mostly Adyar-Besant Nagar Peter types (no offence Munk, I am sure you relate  ) who would rather listen to that version...music has no language, they would say.

Again it is the same group of people who go gaga over recent Hindi albums like Rockstar (supposedly a rock album.. meh), Jodha Akbar and RDB which I personally thought was way overrated, both the movie and the music..but that's just my opinion.

crimson king wrote:[..  In Sahana, even the pallavi doesn't take off.  .
.....
It's ok, broadly speaking there are no wrong notes in music and anything goes but that approach doesn't appeal to me.  I don't find such tunes memorable and cannot really hum along to them (ironically, considering his melodies are supposed to be simpler).  

As for the loops, I agree that they feel unique more for people who are not exposed to Western music.   They thought the sound had sprung out of nowhere but that wasn't the case.  ...

Funny .. you should mention sahana, I had the same problem with it. Anyways, re: wrong notes - certain notes go together and in certain order and can invoke a certain feeling .. early indians discovered this.. they call it raagam :-) Amen, to the next point .. "the sound had spring out of nowhere""..

dilbert wrote:

crimson king wrote:If you mean the interview with Debjyoti Misra, here it is:

Wow , a thread for this interview? IR fans is reacting like teenage girls for an interview which ARR gave to promote his concert.

Guy who is interviewing him asked questions with his own concluded opinions. Its not ARR's fault.

I don't think the thread is just about the interview..that would be embarrassing, I agree. But to not put too fine a point on it, ARR IS being..er..calculatedly dishonest in this interview.

dilbert wrote:
Guy who is interviewing him asked questions with his own concluded opinions. Its not ARR's fault.

I am sorry but respectfully I disagree.  ARR has the choice to correct him rather than encouraging him by introducing words like counterpoint.  What exactly is ARR's contribution to introducing counterpoint in Indian Film Music, please?  Have we not see IR carefully correct interviewers when they start saying lofty things about his work?  Does he not refuse compliments that seek to place him above other legends of IFM?  I am not saying ARR needs to get there but a musician can and often does correct people who misattribute achievements to them.  Far from doing so, ARR only silently endorsed the interviewer's conclusions here.

fring151 wrote:Haha... Snegidhane was probably the wrong example, it after all has the ghastly 'Olive Ennai poosi' and admittedly cringe-worthy pronunciation by SS, so I won't judge you for liking Chupke se more . But aye udi udi was murder, and I know many Tam ARR worshippers with zero indhi knowledge, mostly Adyar-Besant Nagar Peter types (no offence Munk, I am sure you relate  ) who would rather listen to that version...music has no language, they would say.

Again it is the same group of people who go gaga over recent Hindi albums like Rockstar (supposedly a rock album.. meh), Jodha Akbar and RDB which I personally thought was way overrated, both the movie and the music..but that's just my opinion.

Yes, yes, olive ennai poosi, man, I love that part...not!!!  SS's pronunciation was ok compared to Udit-ji but she just sang Chupke se much better.   I cannot comment on why people in TN be it Adyar or Madurai would like Aye Udi over Kadhal Sadugudu.  If music indeed has no language, what exactly makes the Hindi version better. 

Re Rockstar, I think ARR himself said it wasn't 'just' a rock album though why that should be the case I don't know.  Anyway, it was pretty boring.  As I mentioned earlier, none of the Rockstar songs get any great deal of radio-play anymore even though some other hits from 2010 and 2011 get repeated a lot.  Not that makes them better, just that the popularity of ARR in North is gradually waning.  I have sometimes heard Sawaar Loon on two separate stations in the same hour but not one song from Ranjhanaa.

kiru wrote:
 re: wrong notes - certain notes go together and in certain order and can invoke a certain feeling .. early indians discovered this.. they call it raagam :-)  

Of course, and that is how scales also came to be for that matter.   I was only trying to say that a composer might break the code and ignore the established patterns.  In Western, they might even get atonal sometimes.  It's all good theoretically, but if a melody written in raga system doesn't have a logical progression, more often than not it puts me off too.

crimson king wrote:

dilbert wrote:
Guy who is interviewing him asked questions with his own concluded opinions. Its not ARR's fault.

I am sorry but respectfully I disagree.  ARR has the choice to correct him rather than encouraging him by introducing words like counterpoint.  What exactly is ARR's contribution to introducing counterpoint in Indian Film Music, please?  Have we not see IR carefully correct interviewers when they start saying lofty things about his work?  Does he not refuse compliments that seek to place him above other legends of IFM?  I am not saying ARR needs to get there but a musician can and often does correct people who misattribute achievements to them.  Far from doing so, ARR only silently endorsed the interviewer's conclusions here.

Even Director Balki the other day made a sweeping statement that every music director in India should use IR BGMs for their sound tracks. IR never corrected him. As per me ARR did give due respect to everyone including IR (he did mention IR sir) as people whom he looked up to. IR is no saint , he too never stayed away from praises and endorsing views that he was bigger and better than MSV. Its only in recent times things have changed due to social media and TV medium.

I can understand ARR fans being kiddish, because they belong to a generation , IBCDs . But IR fans taking objections to everything and anything is little shocking (because they have cherished some of the best music IFI has ever produced). THEY KNOW BETTER.

dilbert wrote:Even Director Balki the other day made a sweeping statement that every music director in India should use IR BGMs for their sound tracks. IR never corrected him. As per me ARR did give due respect to everyone including IR (he did mention IR sir) as people whom he looked up to. IR is no saint , he too never stayed away from praises and endorsing views that he was bigger and better than MSV. Its only in recent times things have changed due to social media and TV medium.

I can under ARR fans being kiddish, because they belong to a generation , IBCDs . But IR fans taking objections to everything and anything is little shocking (because they have cherished some of the best music IFI has ever produced). THEY KNOW BETTER.

No one denies IR has an ego - he himself admits as much. Any links for the comments on MSV? If it is based on Vigadan or Kumudham stories, we know where those belong. And even assuming he did say he was 'bigger and better' than MSV, that is still only an opinion. I absolutely don't mind if ARR claims he is 'bigger and better' than IR, because I would respect that as his opinion and people can form their own opinion on that opinion. ARR can claim he isn't fond of IR's music IR or say that he didn't enjoy working under him and I wouldn't mind. As I said quite clearly, the only thing I have a real problem with, in this and other recent interviews is him trying to pass off ridiculous claims as facts and indirectly endorsing them.

dilbert wrote:

crimson king wrote:

dilbert wrote:
Guy who is interviewing him asked questions with his own concluded opinions. Its not ARR's fault.

I am sorry but respectfully I disagree.  ARR has the choice to correct him rather than encouraging him by introducing words like counterpoint.  What exactly is ARR's contribution to introducing counterpoint in Indian Film Music, please?  Have we not see IR carefully correct interviewers when they start saying lofty things about his work?  Does he not refuse compliments that seek to place him above other legends of IFM?  I am not saying ARR needs to get there but a musician can and often does correct people who misattribute achievements to them.  Far from doing so, ARR only silently endorsed the interviewer's conclusions here.

Even Director Balki the other day made a sweeping statement that every music director in India should use IR BGMs for their sound tracks. IR never corrected him. As per me ARR did give due respect to everyone including IR (he did mention IR sir) as people whom he looked up to. IR is no saint , he too never stayed away from praises and endorsing views that he was bigger and better than MSV. Its only in recent times things have changed due to social media and TV medium.

I can understand ARR fans being kiddish, because they belong to a generation , IBCDs . But IR fans taking objections to everything and anything is little shocking (because they have cherished some of the best music IFI has ever produced). THEY KNOW BETTER.

That is not what I am talking about at all. If an interviewer calls ARR the greatest and he agreed or if ARR himself declares it, it is ok. But that is not the same thing as suggesting that nobody before ARR had used western or counterpoint in IFM. That is what he agreed to and that is a white lie. There is no need to rewrite history to inflate his self worth. I am not aware of any instance of IR falsely inflating his achievements by saying he was the first to do something when he wasn't. If he did, I object to that as well and I have no mercy for the anxiety it may cause to their blinded fanatics; facts are facts and intellectual dishonesty is highly condemnable. An artist may be vain or egoistic but to lie about his achievements is much worse.

fring and ck are right . Nobody objects to Rahman having an opinion. Actually, I'd like him to come out and say he does not like IR's music (which is the truth/his opinion for sure). He has always wanted to do things different IR. Fair enough.. actually it is this attitude which has taken him so far.. But he should be genuine. Just because the rest of the people praise IR, he should not. He can put it mildly if he prefers ..say "my approach is different or style is different".  Indirectly, trying to attack or take away the accomplishments of one person is not nice. He never wants to say things openly, but he lets his guard down at time, he once said, " even now he makes good music" about IR.

BTW, because of all this talk of Rahman, I listened to a few of his album on Spotify. Its been a long time, I have listened to him. I listened to maryan and kadal only and that too did not finish many songs fully. One thing, I noticed, the singing modulation/dynamics/accent seem to have been decided before hand or they wanted to sing that way whatever be the words in the lyrics. This was not the case with earlier ARR. The orchestration also seems to be very disconnected. It sounded as though everything is being done to "impress" the audience rather than what the lyrics/situation wanted. Getting into these songs after NEPV/Megha/OA with rich orchestration, it was very difficult for me to get into the songs. With IR, every note being played is a f(main tune), if you guys know what I mean. Oh well, he sells more albums and makes lot of money, good for him..

Interesting comment.  I didn't notice that the dynamics might have been premeditated.  Rather, that the vocals were rather flat and seemed to lack dynamics.  Innum Konjam Neram, the female portions are sung by Shweta Mohan.  Compare her singing there to Rajagopuram, on the latter she's more expressive, relaxed and natural.  So much for sadistic composer.  

I don't really blame the singers for Maryan or Kadal songs...they are so rambling and boring it might have been a pain to get through them.   Can't believe it is the same ARR who scored Thodha Thodha.

By the way, this is pure speculation on my part.  Is it possible that the presence of Viji Manuel in IR's troupe played some part in the IR-ARR rift?  Maybe Manuel remained IR's top keyboardist even after ARR joined (in an old video from late 80s or so, IR is seen saying that of all the pianists he knows in India, Manuel is the best) and suppose that didn't go down too well with ARR, as possibly a young and ambitious musician?

crimson king wrote:By the way, this is pure speculation on my part.  Is it possible that the presence of Viji Manuel in IR's troupe played some part in the IR-ARR rift?  Maybe Manuel remained IR's top keyboardist even after ARR joined (in an old video from late 80s or so, IR is seen saying that of all the pianists he knows in India, Manuel is the best) and suppose that didn't go down too well with ARR, as possibly a young and ambitious musician?

Check you PM.

Kochaiadiyan song - My verdict: Nenje ezhu 2. Not impressed. 

aalai illadha ooruku iluppai poo sakkarai.........

fring151 wrote:Kochaiadiyan song - My verdict: Nenje ezhu 2. Not impressed. 

Actually you lowered my expectations by comparing it to Nenje ezhu.  This song was not as tedious and dull as Nenje, but still not very hummable.  I couldn't recollect anything of the tune after listening once.

indha thread thevayaa?