Discussions on ARR

Oscar winner MD.

More importantly, whether deservingly or not, he is one person who gets compared to IR all the time on the net - simply because of the reason that he was the top tool that TF field used to unseat IR from his formidable position.

Accordingly, ARR deserves a separate thread, for all the comments / discussions about him!

Thanks for seperating out this, app.

Few things
1. RDB was a dying force in 80s.  For all his so called coterie, Laxmi Pyare outsold him every day of the week, twice on Sundays.
2. Ppl like me were wondering about the injustice of Laxmi Pyare ruling the waves in the 80s.
3. And then the RDB miracle happened in 90s
4. You never know how the popular wave will flow. It was a pleasure to interact with Laxmi Pyare fans in 90s and noughties
5. For IR fans, that momebt viz a viz ARR will come. We will meet. Will meet. Meet.
6. I am happy about ARR's attempts to hijack history. Hitler got the idea of world domination when drunk with success
7.  I would like ARR to continue along these lines, and go to the extremes with self promotion
8. God sees the truth but waits

To be honest, I also bought into Rahman's pure mind, no jealousy till recently, though secretly. I was, like, evLo gelukkinAlum, steadyA love and peace pEsaRArE, nejamAve nallavarO. Another one year and I  might have also been convinced.
But then, indha stagela, exactly indha stagela, Andavan vechAn pArunga oru twist.

Now read 8 again. This is the reason I am convinced, beyond all your beliefs, that satyameva jayate. vAimaye vellum. konjam lateA varum but latestA varum

Regarding HJ vs Kreem, there is no comparison. I dont think Kreem imitated IR at any point. He had his own style, mainly based on madhyamavati scale and its neighbours. And he never ever was a threat to IR. Azhagan was as far as he went, and we all know how KB realised that Kreem wasnt his ticket to dethroning IR and found a new guy. So that itself tells how much successful Kreem was with imitating IR.

And Maragadhamani is sometimes good, tellingly original, and excellent. He is good with BGM, too.

HJ is a waste of space in music field. Yes, I prefer ARR to HJ, too.
But it is true that he commercially dethroned ARR in noughties. Decisively so. It was like Laxmi Pyare versus RDB. But then Rahman is too good with PR to suffer RDB's fate. Thats what saved him.

HJ is not a waste. ARR made good use of him :-) . Many bit or pieces in HJ's music which resemble ARR's are HJs contribution to ARR's music earlier (see Wizzy's comments)
I'd love to hear from CK about "THE ARR" sound .. I thought Yuvan replicated it first in poovellaam kEttuppaar.
It is also strange (from Wizzy's points) that ARR is into orchestral scores now !!!!

Wow ! Blood hounds are out to get that Blood ,I guess whom am I stop them ! lol:bom: 

ARR  had humble beginning.  What he created as his legacy with that humble beginning is another topic to discuss.
Bottom line overrated MD defined an Overrated Indian Generation's  choice of music (loose pasanga think its ORRLD music) whatever that is.

talking about the sound, much of it in 90s comes from samples. That too many from one sample CD. Why not with his infinite love, credit it in his interviews.

ippdiye ponaa lets discuss lekha ratnakumarnnuveenga pola..

Posted a few tweets in ARR's defence

a_e on twitter wrote:
@cornerd @Raaga_Suresh @dagalti
What is wrong if someone defended IR's arrogance and now point out "XYZ is arrogant" and defend XYZ too?

That way both are arrogant is established, WITHOUT condemnation to either! Then, let's compare ART :-)

Those who tried to hit IR with "arrogant" stick has to now run for cover, for their idol is DITTO ! #NotUs

Those foolish believers (that their idol is humility-personified and maligned IR) must feel ashamed! #NotUs

Our stand is vindicated that talented artists have vidyAgarvam (which is OK) ! Latest proof - ARR :-)

:-)

Let me first defend ARR somewhat and then point out what I find most disagreeable in these latest PR ventures and interviews. First, I don't buy this claim that HJ made inputs in ARR's music unless one of them says or indicates so in an interview. This is the same sort of careless hearsay that has led to IR haters claiming that some songs of Punnagai mannan were partially composed by ARR. I would want to avoid going down this path of speculation and hearsay, mostly perpetuated by trashy tamil magazines (we know how reliable those are), for it gets silly and self-defeating beyond a point.

Second, as I have said earlier, I think ARR composes (or at least used to compose) many beautiful melodies and I do like a lot of his songs (mostly from the early 90s to early 2000 period). Many of them are also quite interesting harmonically and rhythmically and cannot be entirely dismissed as loops and drum machines.

Now to my issues with him and his recent interviews:

1) I would love to know what contribution a Nityasree or a Hariharan or SPB had in the 'composition' of 'Kannodu kaanbadhellam' or 'minsaara kanna' or 'ennavale adi ennavale' or 'Enai kaanavillaye netrodu'. I mean I would really love to know this, and I wish he would be more transparent about it. People deserve to know if these were collaborative works or he created them by himself, because invariably the media and ARRtards assume that it is all about ARR and he gets ALL the credit for the creation of these works.

2) I would love to know what his orchestral works are. Has he written an orchestral score by himself (either for the BGM or songs) and got an orchestra or atleast string section to play it? Because the guy in the Birmingham orchestra interview seemed to have absolutely no doubt in his mind that ARR single-handedly ushered in symphonic music into IFM- and neither ARR nor his coterie disagreed with him. Can some one point me to an orchestral work of his (either background score or songs, I don't care) and I would love to see the credits for arrangement and orchestration if such a work exists. I also want to know if he wrote the sheet music. Twitter folks, please ask ARRtard friends on twitter. I am genuinely curious about this point.

3) As plum mentioned- rewriting history. This really pisses me off, no two ways about it. In this latest interview by the Bengali fellow, he enthusiastically agrees with him that there has never been any symphonic or orchestral work in India so far. If I remember right, he attended IR's TIS audio launch. So unlike his 80s scores and songs which he claims he never used to listen to, he cannot claim ignorance about TIS. I would have actually appreciated it if he had told the interviewer that there had been attempts by other before (he could have even named IR and TIS, I don't care), but that he had not been impressed with these works. I mean I really don't care if he doesn't appreciate IR's music, but here it is blatantly clear he is attempting to sweep things under the carpet and rewrite history.

4) Continuation of point 3 - Interviewer suggesting and ARR again enthusiastically agreeing that he managed a seamless fusion of Indian and western music by combining harmony and raagas (first one to do so, of course). Forget IR, what about works by people like Salil Choudhary or L Subramanian or even say V.S. Narasimhan's Raaga saaga (which I enjoyed immensely). Again, speaks volumes for his humility and guileless nature.


The worst part of this is that he quite smartly propagates these myths in the English media and in the North. The trouble of course is that Southies are so gullible that they completely lap it up when a Northies showers praises on a South Indian, whether it is deserved or not. Just see how retarded filmmakers are able to find a market for their movies in Chennai simply by making references to Rajnikanth. So there IS a danger that, like CK said, narratives might slowly change in the future and ARR hailed as the true pioneer in IFM who revolutionaized things by introducing wcm, jazz blah blah.


On a side note, for all this talk about IR's arrogance by ARtards, he never makes such wild claims about his music. He has certain opinions on music which you or I might not agree with, but in spite of having every right to claim, for instance, that he brought in south Indian folk music into TFM, he rubbishes such claims and says it has always been around. So much for arrogance...

Also small note on HJ. Minnale was not bad at all. I mean Vaseegara was a good song and venmadhiye was decent too. I haven't heard any of his albums of the past 2-3 years, but he frequently (as in once or twice a year) comes up with decent songs - 'Nenjil nenjil idho idho', 'Vizhi moodi yosithaal'. Also, HJ songs like 'partha mudhal naale', 'mundhinam paarthene', 'ennamo edho' etc while being utterly predictable (I can almost predict every chord change) are not the kind of songs which drive me nuts - that would be American pop music of the past decade. Of course I would never buy a HJ CD or seek out his music on youtube or raaga.com and would certainly look down upon someone who did, but his music doesn't annoy me so much as ambient music.

I do not have confirmed reports/proofs of HJs input into ARR's music, but HJ was employed by ARR. I think it is an established fact by now, that singers and players provide quite a lot of input into ARR's music. Most tunes are not necessarily specified exactly by ARR. He has mentioned about Sukwinder Singh's input into thaiy thaiya and relies on Hariharan for "finalizing" intricate melodies. I am sure Blaze and other artistes like that have contributed to his composition.

Since Suresh posted the ARR interview link, I watched it. The major issue there is (as fring points out) that ARR talks as though this is the first time WCM is going to be integrated with Indian music. The whole indian film music genre was WCM+ICM fusion, which ARR broke apart from and then he talks as though it is something new again, which he is attempting. He himself does not do the WCM part of his songs, crediting "Strings arranged by" to somebody else. But he does talk about "counterpoints" which is what IR recently demoed in a stage show. He really talks well though ..sounding philosophical and with a good command of the english language. Some more commercial "hits" and "waves" like NEPV/Megha from IR will most likely have Rahman drop the gloves and real attacks might happen :-)

It is interesting that plum has drawn a parallel to RDB v/s LP.   In the other thread, I have actually spoken about the RDB camp obscuring HFM history to project him as the greatest.   A few LP fans like to talk them up but nobody really takes them seriously.  I mean, "Chholi ke peeche", enough said, they have tarnished their own reputation (they also DID compose Dosti, Parasmani, Aaye Din Bahar Ke, Milan, all good OSTs) by plumbing the absolute depths at the same time.   But you will find a whole bunch of RDB cronies in Bollywood to this day, doing their best to dismiss the work of the 50s and 60s greats.  Along with, Rafi for some reason is targeted because it seems the troika of RDB-Kishore-Asha must somehow be hoisted to the uppermost pedestal even if by discrediting everybody else in the industry from that time.  Whatever, as I said in that thread as well, I am not concerned.  If people are so sheep like as to believe the papers and not listen for themselves, it's their loss.   Today, all these great songs are available on raga/youtube to listen to, so even accessibility is not an issue.  

I strongly agree with fring's points on ARR.  Come on, Kannalane was a great composition.  You should actually listen to the Hindi version, Mehboob's elegant and soulful lyrics (less said about Vairam the better) enhance the composition and allows Chithra to phonate with greater ease.  ARR did a lot of work in the 90s that was memorable and not just because of loops or recording.  When I or others talk about his sound, we certainly do not mean just the recording.  

His chords may be very predictable compared to IR but he's still one of the very few in the film industry who can use chords convincingly.  Would you rather IR had been upstaged commercially by Deva or Sirpi instead of ARR?   Let ARR-coterie attempt to discredit IR, it is not going to change my opinion of either composer.  I do not want to dislike ARR's MUSIC only for what he or his coterie says.  But I am not going to believe the hype nor give him an easy pass when he assents to ridiculous stuff like "There has been no WCM before".  If I see ARR fans tom-toming this bullshit, I will gladly put them in their place and educate them about IR's contribution to IFM.  But that's it, that's where it ends for me.   

Ditto for the collaborations part.   In her farewell concert, S Janaki claimed that Natham En Jeevane was her composition.   Was it true or was she grandstanding?  Who knows. It's a slippery slope if we try to project ARR as somebody who ONLY depends on collaborations and has no remarkable talent of his own.  Again, I am not going to go down that road.  And my main objection was only that they should not target IR for apparently not crediting ARR if he has collaborated with Sukhwinder or Nityashree without giving official credits.   Who was holier than thou of the two does not interest me.  I am ultimately interested in whose music resonates more with me and the answer is simple: netru illae, naalai illae, yeppuvam than raja.


P.S:   fring/drunkenmunk/suresh, can any of you point out to me where exactly ARR has used counterpoint (since he mentioned it in the interview)?  Because if he has, it's not nearly as prominent as IR's usage of it.

crimson king wrote:P.S:   fring/drunkenmunk/suresh, can any of you point out to me where exactly ARR has used counterpoint (since he mentioned it in the interview)?  Because if he has, it's not nearly as prominent as IR's usage of it.

Good question. It has never stood out to me as something he consistently does either, which is not to say he hasn't done it. I certainly have never noticed bassline counterpoints in song after song like in IR's work, nor very prominent instrumental ones like say, the prelude of Poongadhave. Maybe it could be something he attempted occasionally?

CK,

I don't recollect any major counterpoints in the recent past post 2000 and I'm not totally verse with his early Hindi works. ARRtards like his Hindi works more than Tamil works. I like Tamil better to be honest. That's just me. I do recall 2 instances of counterpoints in his work.

1. Kadhalan BGM: As Nagma is taken away from Prabhu Deva: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtOSWX3ndS0&list=PLE7AD20081CB8F069#t=6m3s
Cellos giving the base and a flute singing Kollaiyile score and ending with a vocal hum of EnnavaLe and violin string section. Works well. I like it.
2. Minnale Nee Vandhadhenadi: SPB singing and the cello cues going behind. Very good song, no doubt. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGgIZkfpyio

Other than this, no. Nothing anywhere close to say a Poo MaalaiyE ThOL SEravA in terms of counterpoint.

drunkenmunk wrote:ARRtards like his Hindi works more than Tamil works. I like Tamil better to be honest.

 Lol. That is so true and hilarious. I personally know a few like that. These were the types that abandoned 'Snegidhane' and 'kadhal sadugudu' and migrated to 'chupke se' and 'aye udi udi' in 2002. Never understood why.

fring151 wrote:

drunkenmunk wrote:ARRtards like his Hindi works more than Tamil works. I like Tamil better to be honest.

 Lol. That is so true and hilarious. I personally know a few like that. These were the types that abandoned 'Snegidhane' and 'kadhal sadugudu' and migrated to 'chupke se' and 'aye udi udi' in 2002. Never understood why.

They feel he was challenged better in Hindi than Tamil. IMO, that is true post say 2003. But point is, I personally like his Tamil works in the 90s and early 2000s better than his Hindi works. Delhi 6 and RDB are a couple of exceptions. But to say he was challenged more only in Hindi artistically is debatable and kinda undermines his own legacy with the likes of Mani and Bharathiraja (Kizhakku Chemmaiyile, Andhi Mandharai, Karuthamma and even Kangalal Kaidhu Sei though a dokku movie had fantastic songs) and a Duet with KB.

Btw Munk, in both those clips the violins and cello parts are almost certainly played on synth. Doesn't sound like real strings to me. Not that it takes away from the counterpoint.

fring151 wrote:Btw Munk, in both those clips the violins and cello parts are almost certainly played on synth. Doesn't sound like real strings to me. Not that it takes away from the counterpoint.

That's the thing with early ARR. I'm never able to tell real string sections-cellos from synth. He was very good arranging sound in interesting melodies that way.

Not nitpicking there, just observing, because I am genuinely curious if he ever wrote, arranged and conducted for a real string section in that period. The Lagaan waltz, great as it sounds was arranged and conducted by Prasanna (the guitarist).  In this case it is not trivial at all because the authentic wcm feel you get on hearing this is largely due to the details of the strings arrangement. So half credit goes to Prasanna IMO.

I hope you young guys dont think I think low of ARR because of using collaborators/team work. I have always insisted it is his tune making skills that has him on top all these years. The loops/rhythms anybody can buy and use (btw, pEttai rap has the names of all loop CDs in the lyrics). I do not though like the way he builds the whole song proceeding after the pallavi. But his harmonies/chords, fills and interludes are all very natural (you can see Karthik Raja struggling in these aspects) I do not listen to anybody else more after IR. Again, I have to mention, since I happen to hear the same rhythm arrangements and loops in songs from the US/Europe quite consistently (the last one I heard was one sivaji song) it kind of takes that wholesome enjoyment away.
(Do you have any clips where Janaki mentions about naadham en jeevane being her composition - I remember she did not want to sing it because of the 'enadhu salangai vidhavai aakidumE'. It is ironic she did become a widow later)

ARR.. ipadi interview kodupadharku mun.. Ungalai pola .. IR's Genius  solradha ellam padichutu......

romba humble aga, smiling face a...   unmai pola poi solrar..........

Ravi nat.blog.. padichu irundha.... adhai ellam solli.. idhai ellam naan dhan seiya poren nu solli irupar.. Ravi
nat blog ai miss pannitar ARR..

IR in video sollum.. Counter point ai..... Ravi nat blog sollum.... endha paatu.. enna vishayam endru.......

idhai elllam ARR fans padipangala nu theiryalai.. accept seivangala nu theiryalai.................. kodumai.........

http://geniusraja.blogspot.in/search/label/counterpoint


sila varusham kazichu.. indha ARR.. manasatshiyae ilamal.. solvar.. MUDHAN MUDHALAGA,, INDIA FILM INDUSTRYIL.. MUSIC CONDUCT SEIYA POREN.. ORIGINAL MANUAL  ORCHESTRA  SEIYA POREN ENDRU........IDHARKU MUN  ILLAI IDHU POLA........ENDRU... HUMBLE AGA.SOLVAR......... IDHAIYUM ULAGAMAE NAMBUM..... YEN ENDRAL... IVAR ORU  OSCAR WINNER.........................

kiru wrote:I do not though like the way he builds the whole song proceeding after the pallavi. Again, I have to mention, since I happen to hear the same rhythm arrangements and loops in songs from the US/Europe quite consistently (the last one I heard was one sivaji song) it kind of takes that wholesome enjoyment away.

Both these points resonate with me to some extent.  I think the first aspect, it's become a bigger problem over the years.  In the early years, he was writing melodies where the charanam progressed logically from the pallavi, Uyire, Anjali Anjali Pushpanjali, Kannalane, Ennai Kanavilayae,Thodha Thodha Malarndhadhenna and other such.   The last such melody I really liked was Snegidhane.   But even in the 90s, he would sometimes write melodies where the charanam just went right over.   Telephone manipol was one such...it felt just too convoluted and never worked for me.  Such tunes have become pretty normal in the last 10 years or so.  I really like the Udhaya pallavi but when I get to the charanam, it's just not as intuitive as I prefer it to be.  In Sahana, even the pallavi doesn't take off.  It's ok, broadly speaking there are no wrong notes in music and anything goes but that approach doesn't appeal to me.  I don't find such tunes memorable and cannot really hum along to them (ironically, considering his melodies are supposed to be simpler).  

As for the loops, I agree that they feel unique more for people who are not exposed to Western music.   They thought the sound had sprung out of nowhere but that wasn't the case.  Bands like Talk Talk had that big sound down pat in the 80s, maybe ARR had heard them too, I wouldn't know.  It is commendable that he brought that to TN and blended Indian music with it but it was innovation rather than invention.

fring151 wrote:

drunkenmunk wrote:ARRtards like his Hindi works more than Tamil works. I like Tamil better to be honest.

 Lol. That is so true and hilarious. I personally know a few like that. These were the types that abandoned 'Snegidhane' and 'kadhal sadugudu' and migrated to 'chupke se' and 'aye udi udi' in 2002. Never understood why.

errm, well, I do like Chupke Se more than Snegidhane  mainly because Sadhana Sargam emotes better on the Hindi song, being more familiar with the lyrics.  And then I have that thing against Vairam, his lyrics don't work for me.   I want lyrics to sound phonetically pleasing over and above their poetic flavour or meaning.   I much preferred Vaali, would rather IR and ARR had both worked much more with him and much less with Vairam.   

But Udi Udi just ruined it....Kadhal Sadugudu had a tenderness that was totally lost the way it was handled in Hindi, where Adnan Sami sounded a bit like a bully.

By the way, DM, thanks for posting that Kadhalan BGM - lovely.  And the May Madham song also, haven't heard it in such a long time.   Wonderful interludes.  I THINK the first interlude esp is real strings.   There is an organic richness in the high frequency that I don't know if synths can capture but then modern synths are mind boggling.  There seems to be very modest counterpoint at best in Minnale, it is more pronounced in the Kadhalan BGM (very intricate stuff, though brief), yes?

Drunkenmunk wrote:They feel he was challenged better in Hindi than Tamil. IMO, that is true post say 2003. But point is, I personally like his Tamil works in the 90s and early 2000s better than his Hindi works. Delhi 6 and RDB are a couple of exceptions. But to say he was challenged more only in Hindi artistically is debatable and kinda undermines his own legacy with the likes of Mani and Bharathiraja (Kizhakku Chemmaiyile, Andhi Mandharai, Karuthamma and even Kangalal Kaidhu Sei though a dokku movie had fantastic songs) and a Duet with KB.

These folks have SURELY got to be HFM rather than TFM listeners.   Then of course they would have an (indifferent) opinion on his TFM scores without even listening to it.