Discussions on ARR

^superabu   , always wondered how AR arrives/what he calls a base tune which the director gets to okay it, must be a mighty guessing game.

The way I see it, to create these ‘free-flowing’ songs, you’re likely to create couple of lines randomly, that needn’t necessarily have any logical flow – perhaps pick a scale/ragam, create a couple of lines, play around with the notes in the scale and create more lines randomly, let a day or two pass and create some more ‘sets’; eventually collate all these little pieces and play around with their ‘sequence’ and when something sounds nice, you’re actually done! (Yeah, add chords, percussions, loops, etc. and you should most likely have a ‘free-flowing song’; go on, give it a try!).

during Bombay Dreams time Don Black the lyricist said some thing similar that AR tunes were a collection of 'phrases'
and it took him a while to come to terms with it. add digressions from singers/musicians we are looking a cocktail of  'phrases'.

And the interesting things about Raaja’s approach don’t just end there. He’s always looking for different patterns in not just the pallavi/charanam tunes but also on how to bridge the two portions together which is a definite musical signature of the man. And doing all these things while keeping the structure and flow of the song intact and ‘cohesive’ and more critically, servicing the needs of the film’s situation, supporting and underlining the emotions in it…

:pullarips: SPB in an ETV show 'Swarabhishekam' did a demo on how the interludes/choice of instruments were exactly doing it, the song was 'kothaga'
from 'Swarnakamalam', will try to pull the video for you.

Illi nodu    http://splicd.com/yAqfs35BCkw/3540/3840

Super post KV. Well said.

Wizzy,

Thanks for the SPB link. Have posted it on Twitter. Against all the albums of ARR, Harris, YSR etc I will take 'Swarnakamalam' anyday. Has more melody, experimentation, orchestration that all albums of others combined. The lyrics of SitaramaSastry close the case

wizgaaru... thanks for that link. Superb stuff! Manavaadu manavaadu dhaan ya (pun intentional)!

Great post kv. The way you convey the message is exemplary as always (short and sweet).

Wizzy, That link does not work for me   

V_S wrote:Wizzy, That link does not work for me   

& me
(Not available to people outside India I think)

http://tamil.thehindu.com/cinema/cinema-others/இசையின்-ரகசியமே-வேறு-தாஜ்நூர்/article5559889.ece

இசைப்புயல் ரஹ்மான் இசையமைத்த 60 சதவிகித பாடல்கள் சூஃபியின் ஆன்மாவை கொண்டவைதான். ரஹ்மான் சூஃபியை திரையில் வெகுஜனப்படுத்தியது ஒருவிதம் என்றால் நாகூர் ஹனிபா வெகுமக்களிடம் கொண்டு சேர்த்தது வேறொரு ரகம்.
...
...
சூஃபியில் அமைந்த ரஹ்மானின் சில பாடல்களைக் கூறமுடியுமா?

ஏ ஆர் ரஹ்மானின் டெல்லி 6 இல் வரும் அர்ஜியான் (Arziyan), ராக் ஸ்டாரில் வரும் யானுசாமுதே, ஜோடா அக்பரில் வரும் க்வாஜாஜி, இன் லம்ஹோன், போஸ் படத்தில் வரும் அல்லாஹூ, குரு திரைப்படத்தில் வரும் ஆருயிரே, மன்னிப்பாயா மன்னிப்பாயா போன்ற பாடல்கள் இந்திய சூஃபி இசையின் தாக்கதில் உருவானவைதான். இன்னொரு ஆச்சரியத் தகவல் சொல்லட்டுமா? இசைஞானி இளையராஜாவின் இசையிலும் சூஃபி புகுந்து வந்திருக்கிறது. அன்பு எங்கெல்லாம் இருக்கிறதோ அங்கெல்லாம் சூஃபி இசை வழிந்தோடும்.

New song from highway :same blood:.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=xHLnZMjJ8bY
Like I'd said, this feels as though there's so much emphasis on creating a free flowing tune that all other aspects appear compromised in the process. Or maybe not my cup of tea.

Thanks kv for the link. As you said, tune is free-flowing, but nothing indian about it. High octave shouting is not my cup of my tea To me it is a plain pop song with hindi lyrics, that's about it  The beats are sharp and jarring.

Same feeling here. It's been really tough to bear with it beyond a point as it goes on and on. May the case that since the film is itself about a journey he would have ended up with this. 

 Aside, HJ in this interview mentioned 'pleasurable listening' as his motive and you could see where he takes it from. Very relevant to this song as well.

Another point is, there is no such thing as composing a tune in fragments is an accepted style in the West.  The old pop songwriters like Burt Bacharach used to write a complete melody first, with or without lyrics, and then work out the arrangements, maybe with the help of an arranger.  Or they write the chords and the melody evolves as a response to the chords.  Breaking up the entire composition into bits and trying to somehow put them together must be one of the bizarre ways of working that I have heard of.  It's fine if that's works for him but by itself that doesn't make it 'pathbreaking' or 'unique'.  As a technique, writing songs with only a Western verse-chorus and no charanam is not unique to ARR even in India.  IR has done it on All The Time (Nadodi Thendral).  Nor do I see, to endorse your arguments, anything that makes it somehow more difficult than a pallavi/charanam or mukda/antara flow.  It is just THEIR songwriting tradition just as pallavi/charanam is ours.

crimson king wrote:Another point is, there is no such thing as composing a tune in fragments is an accepted style in the West.  The old pop songwriters like Burt Bacharach used to write a complete melody first, with or without lyrics, and then work out the arrangements, maybe with the help of an arranger.  Or they write the chords and the melody evolves as a response to the chords.  Breaking up the entire composition into bits and trying to somehow put them together must be one of the bizarre ways of working that I have heard of.  It's fine if that's works for him but by itself that doesn't make it 'pathbreaking' or 'unique'.  As a technique, writing songs with only a Western verse-chorus and no charanam is not unique to ARR even in India.  IR has done it on All The Time (Nadodi Thendral).  Nor do I see, to endorse your arguments, anything that makes it somehow more difficult than a pallavi/charanam or mukda/antara flow.  It is just THEIR songwriting tradition just as pallavi/charanam is ours.

Why go back only to 92? Rahmana pAthu thAn adhu kathukkutAru nu abANdamA pazhiya pOttruvAnga (never mind the chronology and other things - andha nuNNukkangaLa pathi kavala padra gumbal illa idhu). EVK (1982) had two songs without any charanam - Pazhaya sogangal and thendral idai. Even PArtha vizhi from Guna had a sort of verse-chorus format - with possibly the best use of the "money note" I've heard in Indian music - while still retaining a very classical melody and arrangements - so the format is cleverly disguised and totally Indianized. Songs where charanam-1 is different from charanam-2 abound as well - KalaivAaniye,  rAga deepam, Kavidhai keLungaL (nambungappa, adhu Rahman idea illa). I even had an example of a 3 charanam song where all 3 charanams are different, but can't recall.

Edit: My point is simply that it is not as though IR was in a rut in song-formats. He has experimented plenty even in this - the above examples are but a sampler. He just very rarely went for the complete free flow (or should it be free-fall?) where everyone does their thing and you just stitch it together to see what you get.

I am not going into songs with different charanams because that goes way back to Baiju Bawra - Duniya Ke Rakhwale.     I mentioned All The Time because that is a proper Western verse-chorus with wholly Westernised orchestration.  There's nothing to suggest such an approach is beyond the pall of composers who are not Rahman. 

crimson king wrote:I am not going into songs with different charanams because that goes way back to Baiju Bawra - Duniya Ke Rakhwale.     I mentioned All The Time because that is a proper Western verse-chorus with wholly Westernised orchestration.  There's nothing to suggest such an approach is beyond the pall of composers who are not Rahman. 

And my point wasn't to refute that original point, but rather to add to it and show examples of songs where IR has played around with formatting to refute the claim that TFM was stuck in a rut with boring pallavi-charanam songs and violin-tabla providing BGM. Plus pArtha vizhi is pretty close to to a verse-chorus format. In any case, there is nothing path-breaking or rule-breaking about writing a song in the verse-chorus format or free format.

V_S wrote:Thanks kv for the link. As you said, tune is free-flowing, but nothing indian about it. High octave shouting is not my cup of my tea :)To me it is a plain pop song with hindi lyrics, that's about it  The beats are sharp and jarring.

high octave shoutingna ennoda #ConstipationCure genrela EdhAvadhu thERumA? sonnIngannu kEttu payan pEruvEn #avanavanprachnaiavanavanukku

fring151 wrote:

crimson king wrote:Another point is, there is no such thing as composing a tune in fragments is an accepted style in the West.  The old pop songwriters like Burt Bacharach used to write a complete melody first, with or without lyrics, and then work out the arrangements, maybe with the help of an arranger.  Or they write the chords and the melody evolves as a response to the chords.  Breaking up the entire composition into bits and trying to somehow put them together must be one of the bizarre ways of working that I have heard of.  It's fine if that's works for him but by itself that doesn't make it 'pathbreaking' or 'unique'.  As a technique, writing songs with only a Western verse-chorus and no charanam is not unique to ARR even in India.  IR has done it on All The Time (Nadodi Thendral).  Nor do I see, to endorse your arguments, anything that makes it somehow more difficult than a pallavi/charanam or mukda/antara flow.  It is just THEIR songwriting tradition just as pallavi/charanam is ours.

Why go back only to 92? Rahmana pAthu thAn adhu kathukkutAru nu abANdamA pazhiya pOttruvAnga (never mind the chronology and other things - andha nuNNukkangaLa pathi kavala padra gumbal illa idhu). EVK (1982) had two songs without any charanam - Pazhaya sogangal and thendral idai. Even PArtha vizhi from Guna had a sort of verse-chorus format - with possibly the best use of the "money note" I've heard in Indian music - while still retaining a very classical melody and arrangements - so the format is cleverly disguised and totally Indianized. Songs where charanam-1 is different from charanam-2 abound as well - KalaivAaniye,  rAga deepam, Kavidhai keLungaL (nambungappa, adhu Rahman idea illa). I even had an example of a 3 charanam song where all 3 charanams are different, but can't recall.

Edit: My point is simply that it is not as though IR was in a rut in song-formats. He has experimented plenty even in this - the above examples are but a sampler. He just very rarely went for the complete free flow (or should it be free-fall?) where everyone does their thing and you just stitch it together to see what you get.

ninnai charanadaindhEn...

plum wrote:high octave shoutingna ennoda #ConstipationCure genrela EdhAvadhu thERumA? sonnIngannu kEttu payan pEruvEn #avanavanprachnaiavanavanukku

Absolutely! Aromale, AdiyE, Anjali Anjali (duet) to name a few. Very allergic genre to me   

CK,
Agreed on your points as well.

V_S wrote:

plum wrote:high octave shoutingna ennoda #ConstipationCure genrela EdhAvadhu thERumA? sonnIngannu kEttu payan pEruvEn #avanavanprachnaiavanavanukku

Absolutely! Aromale, AdiyE, Anjali Anjali (duet) to name a few. Very allergic genre to me   

habbAda innum sila mAdhangaLukku pudhiya #kaalaikadanEnabler

V_S wrote:

plum wrote:high octave shoutingna ennoda #ConstipationCure genrela EdhAvadhu thERumA? sonnIngannu kEttu payan pEruvEn #avanavanprachnaiavanavanukku

Absolutely! Aromale, AdiyE, Anjali Anjali (duet) to name a few. Very allergic genre to me   

A very medicinal genre for me, though
Truly, one man's shi..er..meat is another man's poison

fring: i know you are only adding to the point, i was zust claripying.

I think this will be a good listing exercise. List of Raaja songs which don't conform to the traditional P-C-P structure. 

How about இங்கேயும் அங்கேயும் ஒரே முகம். It has a Charanam #NOT!

idhar aavo:
https://ilayaraja.forumms.net/t159-let-s-talk-song-structuring

crimson king wrote:fring: i know you are only adding to the point, i was zust claripying.

Sure. I haven't even heard that "DuniyA ke rakhwAle" song, but it only goes to show playing around with song structuring dates back more than 50 years in IFM and for one MD and/or his coterie to take credit for this is sheer humbug and needs to be called out for what it is. I have even seen BRangan praise him to the skies for this free-formatting and I just don't get it.