Manadhil oru paattu - Song of the moment - Vol 1

plum wrote:Crimson- ignore the elite chennais. Go to south or even Thiruvannamalai to hear the unna nenahce paatu padichens, kumbakarais, poomanis *blaring* out of speakers. 
I'd agree if you talked about late 90s - specifically the manam virumbudhae unnais, poonjolais, chinna durais. But then these were not pipular when they were released either

If that is the case, why don't even IR's own shows include more material from the 90s? Why have TV channels begun to ignore the songs? I heard all these songs on TV only at that time. If they are not reinforced in public memory by playing them regularly, people will forget them. I said they ought to highlight his 90s work. It is actually a simple and constructive point if you will bear with me.

Ck,
It is you who always underestimate ( even personal attack many times when someone says anything against ask your  post - you already mentioned that I am overreacting) others views and conclude your views as a fact instead of your opinion. If you would have posted your first post as 'my opinion' or 'I think' I would not have not even replied to your post. 

Anyway, this will again not lead us anywhere.

Can we do an objective analysis on this? One of my favorite passtimes is to browse music channels and FM stations (the ones from TN which I can listen to, online) to see if they play Raaja songs.

90s is broad, because he did what close to 125 films in 90,91,92? And very few post 95. I take it that CK means post-92. Because the 90/91/92 had the Anjalis and the thalapathis and the Gunas and the kizhakku vaasals and the idhayams which are IMMENSELY popular and get played in his concerts too.

I am just going to list down the songs which enjoy regular playtime (not as much as a say, poththi vechcha malligai mottu) yearwise.

1993:
Kalaignan - Dillu baru jaane, of course.
Ponnumani - nenjukkulle is still very popular
Valli - Needless to say which song. From midnight masalas to primetime.
Uzhaippaali - Not so much. Again one of his weakest albums, IMO.
Walter Vetrivel - I saw chinna raasaavee as recent as yesterday in IsaiAruvi

1994:
Magalir Mattum - Agree, the Naaser song was popular at that time.
Adharmam - Muthumani x 2
Mahanadhi - Popular, yes.
Veera - Of course. The most played post-90s Rajini album, everywhere.
Sethupathi IPS - Seen saaththu nada saathu. But yeah not as much as in the 90s when they played that song almost everyday.

1995:
Avathaaram - At least 2-3 get played regularly and actually only 2-3 were popular in the 90s too.
Nanthavana Theru - Velli nilave was the only popular song then and even now enjoys regular play time.
Raasaiiyaa - Masthana was a rage, not to be seen nowadays. Kaadhal Vaanile gets played then and there.
SL - Popular yes. Maharajan, Maarugo.

1996-1999:
He did very few films and as Plum mentioned most of them sank without a trace even then. But still we have the Sethus and the Kaathal kavithais and the Raaman Abdullas and Kaadhalukku Mariyaadhai which enjoy good air/play time. The ones which are almost forgotten are the Karthik films, Poovarasan, Muthukaalai, Seeman etc which were mildly popular in the 90s. Poomani is actually quite popular in music channels. En Paattu particularly.

I am not trying to draw any conclusions, just posting some data that I have observed/collected over the last several years.

V_S wrote:Ck,
It is you who always underestimate ( even personal attack many times when someone says anything against ask your  post - you already mentioned that I am overreacting) others views and conclude your views as a fact instead of your opinion. If you would have posted your first post as 'my opinion' or 'I think' I would not have not even replied to your post. 

Anyway, this will again not lead us anywhere.

Excuse me, but who underestimated who here? On what basis did you jump to call my statement completely false? Come on, prove it. Do you have empirical data of how many times these songs have been played in TV channels and radio stations in the last say half a decade? I am asking for hardcore numbers, not personal observations. If you have, then share it and if the data proves me wrong, I will only be too glad to know I had needless misgvings. But if you don't, you simply cannot say it is completely false without justification. It is very offensive to say the least so I am well within my rights to say you overreacted. You did, your reaction was totally out of proportion. If you did not agree, you could have said your experience was different from mine (which is what Nerd has done). Or is such basic courtesy also asking for too much? You may know a lot about IR but if you don't know basic etiquette, you are bound to get into needless arguments. I am surely not the first nor the last.

Nerd wrote:Can we do an objective analysis on this? One of my favorite passtimes is to browse music channels and FM stations (the ones from TN which I can listen to, online) to see if they play Raaja songs.

90s is broad, because he did what close to 125 films in 90,91,92? And very few post 95. I take it that CK means post-92. Because the 90/91/92 had the Anjalis and the thalapathis and the Gunas and the kizhakku vaasals and the idhayams which are IMMENSELY popular and get played in his concerts too.

I am just going to list down the songs which enjoy regular playtime (not as much as a say, poththi vechcha malligai mottu) yearwise.

1993:
Kalaignan - Dillu baru jaane, of course.
Ponnumani - nenjukkulle is still very popular
Valli - Needless to say which song. From midnight masalas to primetime.
Uzhaippaali - Not so much. Again one of his weakest albums, IMO.
Walter Vetrivel - I saw chinna raasaavee as recent as yesterday in IsaiAruvi

1994:
Magalir Mattum - Agree, the Naaser song was popular at that time.
Adharmam - Muthumani x 2
Mahanadhi - Popular, yes.
Veera - Of course. The most played post-90s Rajini album, everywhere.
Sethupathi IPS - Seen saaththu nada saathu. But yeah not as much as in the 90s when they played that song almost everyday.

1995:
Avathaaram - At least 2-3 get played regularly and actually only 2-3 were popular in the 90s too.
Nanthavana Theru - Velli nilave was the only popular song then and even now enjoys regular play time.
Raasaiiyaa - Masthana was a rage, not to be seen nowadays. Kaadhal Vaanile gets played then and there.
SL - Popular yes. Maharajan, Maarugo.

1996-1999:
He did very few films and as Plum mentioned most of them sank without a trace even then. But still we have the Sethus and the Kaathal kavithais and the Raaman Abdullas and Kaadhalukku Mariyaadhai which enjoy good air/play time. The ones which are almost forgotten are the Karthik films, Poovarasan, Muthukaalai, Seeman etc which were mildly popular in the 90s. Poomani is actually quite popular in music channels. En Paattu particularly.

I am not trying to draw any conclusions, just posting some data that I have observed/collected over the last several years.

thank you for a detailed response. Yes, post 1992 only. I cannot judge the radio scene as I don't get Tamil stations here. What you describe is very different from what I experience on TV, where I haven't heard songs like saatu nada in ages. So it is very curious why that should be if mid 90s raja is still popular on radio. By the by, do you listen to any 90s specific stations or just general? Also left with the question why he doesn't perform more of these songs in the shows. Even the shows have a heavy 80s skew.

90s IR is definitely popular on Chennai radio, particularly that Nenga naan, raaja sir and Rewind raagam on Radio mirchi (both of which are ad-packed popular slots) and big FM from 11 am to 2 pm everyday plays a good number of 90s hits. I am guessing they must be even more in demand on, say Madurai or tirunelveli FM stations. I don't watch TV, so can't say...

That kind of dissonance is pretty weird. In Mumbai, there's not much difference between what Hindi songs the radio stations play and the TV channels, except AIR's 100.7 which plays really old songs.

fring151 wrote:90s IR is definitely popular on Chennai radio, particularly that Nenga naan, raaja sir and Rewind raagam on Radio mirchi (both of which are ad-packed popular slots) and big FM from 11 am to 2 pm everyday plays a good number of 90s hits. I am guessing they must be even more in demand on, say Madurai or tirunelveli FM stations. I don't watch TV, so can't say...

Was travelling today and was on Big FM at 11 AM. The show started with Kannaale Kaadhal Kavidhai, Aathma, 1993  So ya, there is sizable 90s post 1992 too on the radio. And in Sun Music's Flashback show, there is heavy percentage of 90s songs with both Raaja and Rahman hits. Other than that, you do have IR specific hit shows in Kalaignar TV every Saturday from to 9 to 10 AM but that is predominantly 80s.

On his concerts, you have a point. I can think of two things:

1. Nostalogy (80s radio, full orchestra etc., which disappeared in the mid-90s) And he started preferring synth in the mid-90s, so re-creating 80s songs with his orchestra will bring back those fond memories.

2. Theres just too many 80s 'hits'. He did 600 films between 76-92. At least 3 songs were hits on an average. So that's 1800 songs already. Between 92-99 may be he did 100? So about 500 songs and about  may be 200 hits.

But still there were songs from Veera, Avatharam, Valli, Sethu, Kathalukku Mariyaadhai etc. Most from the '05 concert. The last few were 80% 80s and 15-20% from post-00.

Yes, nostalgia, I also think that is the reason. I should have used that word in the beginning. There is either not much nostalgia for mid 90s IR or he doesn't think there is. And the concerts have served to cement this perception. Yes, 2005 was more balanced. Thereafter the 80s skew has increased.

crimson king wrote:Yes, nostalgia, I also think that is the reason. I should have used that word in the beginning. There is either not much nostalgia for mid 90s IR or he doesn't think there is. And the concerts have served to cement this perception. Yes, 2005 was more balanced. Thereafter the 80s skew has increased.

CK and others

  I have heard repeatedly in several forums about 80s nostalgia as well as the general black box called, 'synth' that most Raja fans used (there will be as many interpretations as there are Raja fans for their real meaning of the word 'synth'). I have been asking this question to myself for quite sometime on why people get into this 80s nostalgia? A few say, it is the so called, 'live orchestra', but Raja was using synthesizers a lot even during the 80s. There are perhaps some other factors that we have not looked very deeply and uncovered them.

  My humble attempt in trying to answer part of this question is my analysis on the C&R technique that Raja has used throughout his career. However, no one technique is enough to explain a phenomena that includes several such techniques. I hope all my blog readers and the members of this forum take this analysis results on what the data reveals, as opposed to any negativity or any agenda.

Maybe synth based songs seemed to occur more often in the mid 90s (I mean, listeners don't work out whether it holds true mathematically, they just hear a few hits and make patterns in their head). Also the Rahman myth that he invented synthesizer which IR fans may have believed in and therefore (wrongly) put his own 90s work down as imitation. Have seen some rather hilarious comments on the old TFM page more or less allege this. In terms of style, 92-95 was a continuation of his trademark approach. He tried something different on kadhalukku mariyadhai, kannukul nilavu, etc but that was later.

Well..the synth work in IR's music that people are more averse to is to the drum kit sounds .. Of course, he has been using this too earlier too (like in AN - raajathi raja , which sounds very bad to my ears) .
On the other hand, Rahman pretty much differentiated himself exactly on this aspect of the arrangement - programmed drum beats which many times were overtly did not sound like an acoustic drum kit at all.
Anyways, with IR, we are back in acoustic drum kit or synth drum kits that just sound like acoustic drum kit .. I think that is all he needs to sounds 'modern'. Otherwise, he has been quite 'modern' all the time whenever he wants (like say in rettai vaal kuruvi).
I still miss the multiple kinds of percussion type arrangements earlier (drum kit + tabla, drum kit + congas/bongos, drum kit + mridhangam (my fav) etc)

kiru wrote:Well..the synth work in IR's music that people are more averse to is to the drum kit sounds .. Of course, he has been using this too earlier too (like in AN - raajathi raja , which sounds very bad to my ears) .
On the other hand, Rahman pretty much differentiated himself exactly on this aspect of the arrangement - programmed drum beats which many times were overtly did not sound like an acoustic drum kit at all.
Anyways, with IR, we are back in acoustic drum kit or synth drum kits that just sound like acoustic drum kit .. I think that is all he needs to sounds 'modern'. Otherwise, he has been quite 'modern' all the time whenever he wants (like say in rettai vaal kuruvi).
I still miss the multiple kinds of percussion type arrangements earlier (drum kit + tabla, drum kit + congas/bongos,  drum kit + mridhangam (my fav) etc)

Kiru

   Good points on percussion. Drum Kit + tabla - I am sure you have heard the song Ghanashyama from KKS (Malayalam). Having said that, you now get patches that make you think that there is really an ensemble going on, when it is truly not - just played with a patch on a rhythm pad - example, Siru Siru siragugalil - you will get a feeing of a mirudhangam and a drum kit being played - that's an illusion. Perhaps the reason, why Puru became a conductor!

  You still get the occasional brilliance on percussion from Raja - Adada Ahangara (Pithamagan) or Om Sivoham (Naan KadavuL). Raja's programmed drum beats suck and he never focused on taming that beast! If you expect a play like 'Poo Malardhida' (Tik Tik Tik), you are out of luck :-(

ravinat wrote:.. If you expect a play like 'Poo Malardhida' (Tik Tik Tik), you are out of luck :-(

Ravi, there you are .. exactly... but the orchestral brilliance is holding me in its grip these days..

As I said earlier, I have been listening to lot of Tamil radio online recently - usually at night (and so morning in Chennai) when I am getting some work done and it serves as background music. 'Rewind raagam" is in fact an exclusively 90s, early 2000s nostalogy based show and runs for a whole 3 hrs from 11 am to 2 pm and as I said,is commercial-heavy, which irrefutably implies popular. It is hosted by a hardly witty, sometimes bearable, occasionally annoying but consistently unwanted, irrelevant gyaan peddling, humbly pontificating RJ called Shivashankari. The program nonetheless primarily seems to cater to a 90s-nostalogy afflicted Chennai youth gumbal and I have been pleasantly surprised by the number of IR songs that get requested and played. That's where I heard Saathu nadai saathu, Nillaadha vennila and many other songs which some of would consider 'rare'. Further, over the entire past week the IR:ARR ratio has been palpably skewed towards IR. I think we tend to somewhat under-estimate the popularity of his 90s work. TBH, even I thought so till recently. But as Plum points out, non- posh Chennai people seem to be much more receptive to post 80s IR, so it might well be a case of selection or confirmation bias for city/abroad based folks like many of us here.

But does this mean the Chennai elite seeks to determine taste on behalf of the rest of TN?  That's a shame.  The reason I ask is since there are surely lots of TV viewers outside Chennai, lots of music lovers, the anemic patronage for 90s Raja on TV as well as in the shows is disheartening.

It would be a stretch to say they seek to determine taste. Concerts can be put down to nostalgia and yearning for live instruments and orchestral music, but honestly, I don't have an explanation for the paucity of 90s IR on TV. Maybe it does get played at late hours though. I don't have a TV, so maybe someone else can clarify this...

Not determine, rather, seek to determine, trying to control to the extent they can by shutting out some music.  DM mentioned a particular Sun Music show which does play 90s songs but I am not sure if it plays in any primetime slot.  In the mornings from say 7 to 8, only Isai Aruvi plays IR songs and that is exclusively 80s most of the days.  Occasionally, Intha Poovukoru arasu poovarasu will creep in but that's maybe one day in an entire month, if not more.  Isai Aruvi also shifts to current playlists from 8.  At 10 or 10:30 in the night, it again has an IR playlist but that too tends to be 80s. As I said, there is no such contradiction in how Bolly music is distributed in different media.  Likewise, when the Hindi heartland asserts itself with a Tere Mast Mast Do Nain, then such songs resonate through Mumbai as well.  It is not sought to be shut off as too rural/uncool...which I suspect is what is happening with mid 90s IR. 

About the shows, IR himself said something about going back to live recording in one of the Dhoni teasers.  So maybe promoting his mid 90s work does not work very well with that kind of positioning.  But I personally don't think IR is just about live instruments.  In the time he became composer, everybody was using live instruments so it may have nostalgic value today but that's hardly his USP. It's about what he does with those instruments and there was no major change in style during the mid 90s.  If the instruments were changed to more acoustic, many of those songs would comfortably fit in his 80s soundtracks, some of them without any such tweaking.

When I was in Chennai earlier this year, jayamax had a 'primetime' slot, either 9-10 or 10-11 I don't recall, (but guess it must have been 10-11 as that was around the time I used to wake up) which was a nearly all-80s IR show. And i usually stay up late, so after 10 pm there seems to be a lot of IR too, but I don't recall seeing too many post-92 songs except the classic Thendral vandhu theendum podhus and Ennule ennules . In general Jaya channels have significant IR content, perhaps madam is a fan? Who knows. My respect for her would go up a notch if that's the case. If you are interested, I would suggest that you tune into radio mirchi anytime between 11 am and 2 pm to determine for yourself the popularity of 90s IR on radio. In fact, as I am typing this right now, they are playing sembaruthi poovu on that station (Not that I like that song at all, but just registering my observation). You can tune in here:

http://www.tamilradios.com/radio-mirchi-tamil-fm.html

Thanks. I don't really need radio anymore though.  For songs I know, I either already have them in hard form or can play them on internet (youtube or raga etc).  For songs I don't, there's Ilayaraja and Beyond.   

Sure, but I have come to enjoy the surprises that radio throws up as I often end up hearing many songs which I haven't heard at all or heard long back. With YT or raaga, it is songs which you feel like hearing and seek out, but with radio, you are caught unawares, so it's sweet  

RJ just announced next two songs are from Anjali and Idhayam. And there are n commercials before that  

I am not sure either about how the elite Chennai group could decide what gets played even if they seek to determine taste. Surely they are not that influential. At least I hope not.

Wouldn't rule it out.  If a bunch of 'cool' dudes taking over A&R positions at music labels could change the course of Western music in the 1970s (as said by Frank Zappa no less), it could certainly happen in this case also.  They can convince people that THEY know best what people want to listen to, blah blah blah.  The concerts have done a lot to 'repair' IR's perception in Chennai.  Otherwise, when I used to go there earlier, it used to be totally pro-ARR.