Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 2

Well, obviously, practically speaking, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a different person to have written the bass parts for IR's songs consistently unless that person could create at the SAME pace as IR - and that is highly, highly unlikely given how the bass parts are often in counterpoint and interact with vocal and instrumental parts. Plus, the impression I have is that IR used to writes notes in the morning, recording used to be held in the afternoon. So again, that person probably had a couple of hour to "fill in" the bass portions, if at all. Improvising might be possible within such a short time, but such meticulously written parts? Seriously, seriously doubt it.

But, considering the fact that composing and recording used to happen mostly on the same day, sometimes for more than one song,  with just a few rehearsals, the skill of those musicians must be applauded   .

Just to float vetti theories, IF at all, maybe IR allowed Viji to improvise on some select few tracks owing to his skill and virtuosity. But then, the question arises, should he have credited Viji on those tracks? An uncomfortable question..ya would be nice if someone can dig out the facts.

CR and DM,

I do know some people keep claiming that Viji did the bass parts but I don't think that would have been possible for a few reasons. One, is that there is no way you can keep the unity of a piece intact when you outsource one portion to someone else. The precision is Raja's music is too high for this to happen. Also in may songs certain portions have only the bass parts. I am sure Raja would not have allow anyone to write 'some bass' part there because it has to be a part of the song and part of the intended effect.

Second is a more technical reason. Maybe people like CR and fring can tell us more. When Raja chooses a rare raga from Carnatic music setting chords for that is not a simple exercise. You may or may not get the chords. In our songs, I think they write the melody first before they write the harmony. In order to do the harmony, you need to set the chords. So Raja cannot do the harmony if he doesn't set the chords. Once he identifies the chords, the bass chords have to be played in such a way that they are also harmonious. In essence bass cannot be set independently. (This is my understanding of how they write music in WCM. CR had mentioned that rock folks generally do the chord progression first and then write the melody). So Raja cannot write the song without the chords and the bass guitar has to use the same chords.

What could have happened at the most is that in certain places in the score, Raja could have told Viji to use these chords and come up with different patterns. And Raja may have approved of them. Atmost that is what could have happened. Because Raja uses lot of scales and it is not easy to set chords to these scales for the chords need to be grammatically correct, there is no way that he can outsource that activity.

fring,

We posted simultaneously  I was sort of saying the same thing.

And yes, when you consider counterpoint, two people doing it can be ruled out. I heard (though not confirmed) that Raja taught Viji to read sheet music.

Raaga_Suresh wrote:fring,

We posted simultaneously  I was sort of saying the same thing.

And yes, when you consider counterpoint, two people doing it can be ruled out. I heard (though not confirmed) that Raja taught Viji to read sheet music.

Yes, I've read about it too. Thanks for the clarification.

Good point Sureshji,

As IR mentioned in the King of Kings video, for Anandha rAgam, the harmony was all within Simhendramadhyam. Now, unless Viji had such a command over Carnatic music, which he didn't by all accounts (he was a jazz pianist mainly) this can pretty much be ruled out. THAT is the very difficulty in harmonizing CCM, constructing chords and counterpoints with the available notes of the ragam and making it sound harmonious with the typical phrases of the ragam. So ya, the claim sounds all the more dubious. As I said, the most plausible scenario is IR giving the singer, keyboardist and  bass player some freedom to improvise on certain songs. I have heard he gave KJY that liberty at times. (don't remember source, can't confirm).

raaga_suresh wrote:Also in may songs certain portions have only the bass parts. I am sure Raja would not have allow anyone to write 'some bass' part there because it has to be a part of the song and part of the intended effect.

Ya, Eeramana rojAve interludes and even vocal stanzas for that matter. 

IR taught Viji to read sheet music? Now that's a surprise as well!

Raaga_Suresh wrote:
What could have happened at the most is that in certain places in the score, Raja could have told Viji to use these chords and come up with different patterns. And Raja may have approved of them. Atmost that is what could have happened. Because Raja uses lot of scales and it is not easy to set chords to these scales for the chords need to be grammatically correct, there is no way that he can outsource that activity.

If you see IR's interview portion for Anandha Raagam in the King of Kings telecast, he mentions that in the early days (maybe upto 80/81 ??) he used to write a single line of score (for the strings is my guess) and set the other portions (bass, chords etc.) 'on the spot'.
And here, like you said, Raja might have approved some of Viji's suggestions (which does not equate to Viji settings the bass portions !).
Also, in his interview with Sivamani, he mentions about how that MSV's main drummner suggested a different pattern for the charam for 'Oru Naal Unnodu' and Raja approved.

My personal guess is at some point beyond his early days (again, not sure of timeline but since Raja mentioned this for Anandha Raagam, I am assuming maybe upto 80/81), Raja started writing full score (all portions - strings, flute, bass, guitar, keyboard etc.) for all the songs and from this point, his harmonies/chord progressions etc. were already so perfect that the musicians understood this and hardly had to give suggestions, and even in those few circumstances, they were proven wrong (Puru mentions this in a chat session with IR fans, trying to find the video).

From his recent King of Kings concert insights, Raja conveyed that it was his own idea of that few second final seductive screaming (of Janaki) in nila kaayuthu. When he does not allow anyone to improvise even for few seconds, where comes the question of someone doing bass parts for the entire song. I even read one score sheet for Kaaki Chattai (pattu kannam song) for SPB on where he has to laugh, I don't think this is even a question.

Puru (Raja's drummer for a long time and now the arranger) talks to some of IR's fans about the man and the music making process - lots of insightful comments, do watch (not sure if this was posted here before):

Also found this chat by some IR fanboy with a presumably buzzed Ferenc Nemeth and Attila Lazslo. He is obviously asking questions, the answers to which he already knows  , but anyway, here again Ferenc says how he writes "everything" for the whole orchestra with no corrections ever. So he didn't allow even those Hungarian virtuosos to improvise. Attila begins to say "And sometimes.." and the video ends. Wonder what he used to do "sometimes"!

raaga_suresh wrote:What could have happened at the most is that in certain places in the score, Raja could have told Viji to use these chords and come up with different patterns. And Raja may have approved of them. Atmost that is what could have happened. Because Raja uses lot of scales and it is not easy to set chords to these scales for the chords need to be grammatically correct, there is no way that he can outsource that activity.

That is another possibility.

Viji: "Raja, inga maj 7th chord mark paNNirkIngaLe. maj 9th pOtta nallA irukkAdhu?"

Raja: (Smiles). "Umm..ok. Correctu, nalla idea. Play paNNunga."

Note, there is a one note difference between a maj 7th and maj 9th chord, but substituting one for the other might not always "work".

Or

Viji: " Raja, indha edathula, instead of playing it as a regular chord, arpeggiated chord'A vasichhA, I think it'll sound more dynamic"

Raja: (Nods enthusiastically)

Or he could have played a chord inversion at some place instead of a regular chord, played it on the piano using a different technique and dynamics than what was notated etc and Raja approved. Note that Raja enjoyed a very good rapport with him, having known him since G.K.Venkatesh days and they shared great mutual respect.

With that said, it's highly improbably this happened regularly, purely because of the speed at which IR worked and the mathematical precision of a lot of his music.

fring151 wrote:

raaga_suresh wrote:What could have happened at the most is that in certain places in the score, Raja could have told Viji to use these chords and come up with different patterns. And Raja may have approved of them. Atmost that is what could have happened. Because Raja uses lot of scales and it is not easy to set chords to these scales for the chords need to be grammatically correct, there is no way that he can outsource that activity.

That is another possibility.

Viji: "Raja, inga maj 7th chord mark paNNirkIngaLe. maj 9th pOtta nallA irukkAdhu?"

Raja: (Smiles). "Umm..ok. Correctu, nalla idea. Play paNNunga."

Note, there is a one note difference between a maj 7th and maj 9th chord, but substituting one for the other might not always "work".

Or

Viji: " Raja, indha edathula, instead of playing it as a regular chord, arpeggiated chord'A vasichhA, I think it'll sound more dynamic"

Raja: (Nods enthusiastically)

Or he could have played a chord inversion at some place instead of a regular chord, played it on the piano using a different technique and dynamics than what was notated etc and Raja approved. Note that Raja enjoyed a very good rapport with him, having known him since G.K.Venkatesh days and they shared great mutual respect.

With that said, it's highly improbably this happened regularly, purely because of the speed at which IR worked and the mathematical precision of a lot of his music.

Point is when Viji fell ill did the bass lines stop coming? i find this whole "lets find the exception and frame as a rule on IR's head" a notorious line of thought strewn with good intentions that a fox has while coming to the assistance of a bunny.

jaiganesh wrote:

fring151 wrote:

raaga_suresh wrote:What could have happened at the most is that in certain places in the score, Raja could have told Viji to use these chords and come up with different patterns. And Raja may have approved of them. Atmost that is what could have happened. Because Raja uses lot of scales and it is not easy to set chords to these scales for the chords need to be grammatically correct, there is no way that he can outsource that activity.

That is another possibility.

Viji: "Raja, inga maj 7th chord mark paNNirkIngaLe. maj 9th pOtta nallA irukkAdhu?"

Raja: (Smiles). "Umm..ok. Correctu, nalla idea. Play paNNunga."

Note, there is a one note difference between a maj 7th and maj 9th chord, but substituting one for the other might not always "work".

Or

Viji: " Raja, indha edathula, instead of playing it as a regular chord, arpeggiated chord'A vasichhA, I think it'll sound more dynamic"

Raja: (Nods enthusiastically)

Or he could have played a chord inversion at some place instead of a regular chord, played it on the piano using a different technique and dynamics than what was notated etc and Raja approved. Note that Raja enjoyed a very good rapport with him, having known him since G.K.Venkatesh days and they shared great mutual respect.

With that said, it's highly improbably this happened regularly, purely because of the speed at which IR worked and the mathematical precision of a lot of his music.

Point is when Viji fell ill did the bass lines stop coming? i find this whole "lets find the exception and frame as a rule on IR's head" a notorious line of thought strewn with good intentions that a fox has while coming to the assistance of a bunny.

Already put a disclaimer that it is pure speculation and also ruled out possibility of it being a "rule" due to the speed of proceedings in Prasad studio. But when a card carrying IR fan like Eddie who is also close to Viji (and helping him these days as we saw in the Super singer show) says something, we can't simply dismiss it right? That's why...

Speaking of contrapuntal basslines, I was reminded yesterday of the second interlude of Poonthalir Aada.  I am curious as to how that can be conceived independently.  Surely IR must have conceived it as a contrapuntal section as he wrote it? Even a relatively straight up example like the prelude of Kannan Vandhu Paaduginran, again contrapuntal basslines.  It is difficult to imagine that being conceived by Viji independently devoid of any input or guidelines from IR.  As you have all said, at the most IR may have outlined what he wanted there and Viji might have worked out the actual notes himself.  But that's more of an arranger's job, not a composer.  To say he composed the bass parts would suggest that the very approach to writing those basslines itself was his and not IR's.  I would believe that more easily if bass wasn't such an integral part of IR's music.  It's not an appendage, his compositions would be incomplete without the basslines. Leaving aside Eddie, I am sure violin vicky understands that distinction.  So why would he still make such a statement is the question.

angE oru 13 pEr koNda propoganda committee is working hard. ipdi dhAn "composing in 20 minutes+-ai thangaLukku sollikittAnga. Now they are trying to push the criticism on their man - namely picking from assistant s- to us. Clearly, propoganda.

Viji Manuelukku sheet musicE padikka theriyAdhumbOdhu avar bass line ezhudhinArA?
Note that Raghu wooed Viji during the ASS episode. Vijikku vayasAchu, udambu sariyillai, kAsu thEvai, adhai koduthuttu ipdi oru puraLiyum keLappi irukkalAm. THey will descend to any levels
(Remember the Thevar magan scene - obviously wih a parallel in Godfather probably - of Thalaivaasal Vijay being coerced to sign papers giving away his inheritance by Nasser and co by "oothi  koduthufing"? Viji Manuel = ThalaivAal Vijay, Nasser = Raghu, Madan Bob =Raghu's propoganda committee of 13 people)

plum wrote:angE oru 13 pEr koNda propoganda committee is working hard. ipdi dhAn "composing in 20 minutes+-ai thangaLukku sollikittAnga.

Idhu eppo? EngE? nAn andha FB comments il Sreeni pOtta "spontaneous" comment mattum thAn pAthirkkEn. 20 mins time frame vEra uruvitAngala? 

Would like to hear confirmation from violinvicky if anyone knows him here. Why he says so about the bass guitar part in kOdai kAla kAttRE, what's his source etc...

jaiganesh wrote:

fring151 wrote:

raaga_suresh wrote:What could have happened at the most is that in certain places in the score, Raja could have told Viji to use these chords and come up with different patterns. And Raja may have approved of them. Atmost that is what could have happened. Because Raja uses lot of scales and it is not easy to set chords to these scales for the chords need to be grammatically correct, there is no way that he can outsource that activity.

That is another possibility.

Viji: "Raja, inga maj 7th chord mark paNNirkIngaLe. maj 9th pOtta nallA irukkAdhu?"

Raja: (Smiles). "Umm..ok. Correctu, nalla idea. Play paNNunga."

Note, there is a one note difference between a maj 7th and maj 9th chord, but substituting one for the other might not always "work".

Or

Viji: " Raja, indha edathula, instead of playing it as a regular chord, arpeggiated chord'A vasichhA, I think it'll sound more dynamic"

Raja: (Nods enthusiastically)

Or he could have played a chord inversion at some place instead of a regular chord, played it on the piano using a different technique and dynamics than what was notated etc and Raja approved. Note that Raja enjoyed a very good rapport with him, having known him since G.K.Venkatesh days and they shared great mutual respect.

With that said, it's highly improbably this happened regularly, purely because of the speed at which IR worked and the mathematical precision of a lot of his music.

Point is when Viji fell ill did the bass lines stop coming? i find this whole "lets find the exception and frame as a rule on IR's head" a notorious line of thought strewn with good intentions that a fox has while coming to the assistance of a bunny.

Exactly. I'm more interested in the question, are we getting the bass lines we are used to, from the boss? From when did this slide start? Or is it not to be seen as a slide but rather a departure more generic and not affecting just the bass lines? (IOW, the "he has moved on, you havent" argument)

planning to message him later on youtube. Let's not presume ill will, man has worked with raja sir. Let him clarify (if he wants to)

in before some adivarudi/allakais of VS Narasimhan claim the same bit about strings  
Raaja is simply too proud a man to let some one 'compose' the bass parts..
surely it should have been one off like what Arulmozhi had to do with 'ilam nenje vaa'//

fring151 wrote:

plum wrote:angE oru 13 pEr koNda propoganda committee is working hard. ipdi dhAn "composing in 20 minutes+-ai thangaLukku sollikittAnga.

Idhu eppo? EngE? nAn andha FB comments il Sreeni pOtta "spontaneous" comment mattum thAn pAthirkkEn. 20 mins time frame vEra uruvitAngala? 

Would like to hear confirmation from violinvicky if anyone knows him here. Why he says so about the bass guitar part in kOdai kAla kAttRE, what's his source etc...

idhar aavO: http://forbesindia.com/article/recliner/ar-rahman-and-the-art-of-focus/32584/1

Having shared this, duty bound to direct you to the first 2 comments also. The 2nd comment is the defence now. Spontaneous in creating tunes, taking time to orchestrate and record, who cares about time when end product is good? He is spontaneous in creating tunes.

Drunkenmunk wrote:

fring151 wrote:

plum wrote:angE oru 13 pEr koNda propoganda committee is working hard. ipdi dhAn "composing in 20 minutes+-ai thangaLukku sollikittAnga.

Idhu eppo? EngE? nAn andha FB comments il Sreeni pOtta "spontaneous" comment mattum thAn pAthirkkEn. 20 mins time frame vEra uruvitAngala? 

Would like to hear confirmation from violinvicky if anyone knows him here. Why he says so about the bass guitar part in kOdai kAla kAttRE, what's his source etc...

idhar aavO: http://forbesindia.com/article/recliner/ar-rahman-and-the-art-of-focus/32584/1

Having shared this, duty bound to direct you to the first 2 comments also. The 2nd comment is the defence now. Spontaneous in creating tunes, taking time to orchestrate and record, who cares about time when end product is good? He is spontaneous in creating tunes.

UNmailiye sadhi seyyarAngalA illa namma thAn anAvasiyamA manasa pOttu kozhappikarOmA? Is the biggest-hearted gentleman in IFI really indulging in such subversive propaganda with a deliberate agenda?

+1, we should give it a rest. If Rahman or his cohorts feel he is fast (sic) that's ok. It's the sly "I will compose films as per god's share" comments I object to.

fring151 wrote:
UNmailiye sadhi seyyarAngalA illa namma thAn anAvasiyamA manasa pOttu kozhappikarOmA? Is the biggest-hearted gentleman in IFI really indulging in such subversive propaganda with a deliberate agenda?

I have been having this doubt too. So did some searching. Got this from the archives. Nice interview of Rahman's early days with BH Shahul Hameed. 1994 Pongal, BHSH even quotes his ellA pugazhum iRaivanukkE and they interview kid GVP, KB, Vairamuthu, SPB. SPB, KB speak about him taking time and praise the end product and justify it. I agree. If the end product is good, who is to complain about the process? Fair enough. And it is silly on an IR fan's part to say IR composes at God speed at supreme quality so his method is water proof and ARR taking time to give his end product is flawed. I am quite certain none of us IR fans in this forum at least subscribe to that thought and I am a big fan of 90s ARR music #SupremeCourtDefense

And there is the recent case of composing in under 20 minutes which was simply not consistent with what ARR-fans were talking about. Naturally, this inconsistency was poked and ridiculed by IR fans. ARR fans have responded by saying "just the composition of the tune takes 20 minutes. Not the entire orchestral score and recording." Hmmm... open to debate because by that logic, every composer finishes composing a tune in one sitting and not sariga today, gamapa tomorrow like we discussed here itself before. Even then, I've seen videos where a Vairamuthu spoke about how Vidyasagar took an hour to 2 to come up with Kadhal Vandhaal Solli Anuppu from Iyarkai after he wrote the lyrics and left. So, composing a tune in under 20 minutes is appreciable. Only question being, has there been open claims previously of ARR taking time to compose the melodies itself? In which case, the recent claims of composing in under 20 minutes is open to ridicule.

Coming to the Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOI8_pPdm14#t=3m watch from 3 minutes, Vairamuthu specifically says "...andha nErathil avar enna seiginRAr enRu enakku theriyum. avar pala mettukkaLai pOttu pOttu azhikkirAr..." Current ARR fan defense: "20 mins of composing is only for the tune and not for orchestrating it." And they might come up with "we haven't heard it from the horse's mouth and the horse says it takes 20 minutes." In which case, Vairamuthu is blabbering.

crimson king wrote:
+1, we should give it a rest. If Rahman or his cohorts feel he is fast (sic) that's ok. It's the sly "I will compose films as per god's share" comments I object to.

God's share? Not sure I am following. I agree we shouldn't care if ARR's fans feel if he is fast. But the fan inconsistency in "why care about time? It is the end product that matters" and "a spontaneous guy who composes in 20 minutes" (Sreeni and other ARR fans) is what is err, a little funny.

ARR idam work seidha Film Directors kite kaetal. unmai theiryum............. Fast aga koduthara epadi koduthar endru........

Publicity kaga.. Edhuvum pesuvar ARR................ idhai vaithu kondu avar peyar,  avarai patri pechu....

Brain illadhavanga seiyara velai.......... 

 ipadi pesi... avaruku  idam kodukanama......

DM: I am referring to that Brangan interview where he said he didn't want to do 30 films a year, just whatever was his share as per God. I didn't like the moralising tone in that statement. But as for speed, it's just overenthusiastic fans. In that forbes interview, he has only said he spends 20-30 minutes in a day on composing, not that he wraps up the tune in 20 minutes. Anyway Raghu fans are a chippy bunch, don't like to admit there may be anything at all in which raja is better. Ignore unless it's a celeb fan like srini.

Link courtesy our SKV at twitter:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news-interviews/Bala-wants-to-steal-Ilaiyaraajas-photos/articleshow/29444902.cms

Bala recently visited the composer's photography exhibition, which is being held in the city, and was in awe of the pictures there. We overheard the director commenting, "These are wonderful photographs. If I ask Raja sir for these pictures, he will not give me. So, I'm thinking of ways to steal them from here — I'm so much in love with them!" The National Award-winning director is currently working on a musical script that is likely to have tunes composed by Ilaiyaraaja.