Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 2

Raaga_Suresh wrote:
What could have happened at the most is that in certain places in the score, Raja could have told Viji to use these chords and come up with different patterns. And Raja may have approved of them. Atmost that is what could have happened. Because Raja uses lot of scales and it is not easy to set chords to these scales for the chords need to be grammatically correct, there is no way that he can outsource that activity.

If you see IR's interview portion for Anandha Raagam in the King of Kings telecast, he mentions that in the early days (maybe upto 80/81 ??) he used to write a single line of score (for the strings is my guess) and set the other portions (bass, chords etc.) 'on the spot'.
And here, like you said, Raja might have approved some of Viji's suggestions (which does not equate to Viji settings the bass portions !).
Also, in his interview with Sivamani, he mentions about how that MSV's main drummner suggested a different pattern for the charam for 'Oru Naal Unnodu' and Raja approved.

My personal guess is at some point beyond his early days (again, not sure of timeline but since Raja mentioned this for Anandha Raagam, I am assuming maybe upto 80/81), Raja started writing full score (all portions - strings, flute, bass, guitar, keyboard etc.) for all the songs and from this point, his harmonies/chord progressions etc. were already so perfect that the musicians understood this and hardly had to give suggestions, and even in those few circumstances, they were proven wrong (Puru mentions this in a chat session with IR fans, trying to find the video).

From his recent King of Kings concert insights, Raja conveyed that it was his own idea of that few second final seductive screaming (of Janaki) in nila kaayuthu. When he does not allow anyone to improvise even for few seconds, where comes the question of someone doing bass parts for the entire song. I even read one score sheet for Kaaki Chattai (pattu kannam song) for SPB on where he has to laugh, I don't think this is even a question.

Puru (Raja's drummer for a long time and now the arranger) talks to some of IR's fans about the man and the music making process - lots of insightful comments, do watch (not sure if this was posted here before):

Also found this chat by some IR fanboy with a presumably buzzed Ferenc Nemeth and Attila Lazslo. He is obviously asking questions, the answers to which he already knows  , but anyway, here again Ferenc says how he writes "everything" for the whole orchestra with no corrections ever. So he didn't allow even those Hungarian virtuosos to improvise. Attila begins to say "And sometimes.." and the video ends. Wonder what he used to do "sometimes"!

raaga_suresh wrote:What could have happened at the most is that in certain places in the score, Raja could have told Viji to use these chords and come up with different patterns. And Raja may have approved of them. Atmost that is what could have happened. Because Raja uses lot of scales and it is not easy to set chords to these scales for the chords need to be grammatically correct, there is no way that he can outsource that activity.

That is another possibility.

Viji: "Raja, inga maj 7th chord mark paNNirkIngaLe. maj 9th pOtta nallA irukkAdhu?"

Raja: (Smiles). "Umm..ok. Correctu, nalla idea. Play paNNunga."

Note, there is a one note difference between a maj 7th and maj 9th chord, but substituting one for the other might not always "work".

Or

Viji: " Raja, indha edathula, instead of playing it as a regular chord, arpeggiated chord'A vasichhA, I think it'll sound more dynamic"

Raja: (Nods enthusiastically)

Or he could have played a chord inversion at some place instead of a regular chord, played it on the piano using a different technique and dynamics than what was notated etc and Raja approved. Note that Raja enjoyed a very good rapport with him, having known him since G.K.Venkatesh days and they shared great mutual respect.

With that said, it's highly improbably this happened regularly, purely because of the speed at which IR worked and the mathematical precision of a lot of his music.

fring151 wrote:

raaga_suresh wrote:What could have happened at the most is that in certain places in the score, Raja could have told Viji to use these chords and come up with different patterns. And Raja may have approved of them. Atmost that is what could have happened. Because Raja uses lot of scales and it is not easy to set chords to these scales for the chords need to be grammatically correct, there is no way that he can outsource that activity.

That is another possibility.

Viji: "Raja, inga maj 7th chord mark paNNirkIngaLe. maj 9th pOtta nallA irukkAdhu?"

Raja: (Smiles). "Umm..ok. Correctu, nalla idea. Play paNNunga."

Note, there is a one note difference between a maj 7th and maj 9th chord, but substituting one for the other might not always "work".

Or

Viji: " Raja, indha edathula, instead of playing it as a regular chord, arpeggiated chord'A vasichhA, I think it'll sound more dynamic"

Raja: (Nods enthusiastically)

Or he could have played a chord inversion at some place instead of a regular chord, played it on the piano using a different technique and dynamics than what was notated etc and Raja approved. Note that Raja enjoyed a very good rapport with him, having known him since G.K.Venkatesh days and they shared great mutual respect.

With that said, it's highly improbably this happened regularly, purely because of the speed at which IR worked and the mathematical precision of a lot of his music.

Point is when Viji fell ill did the bass lines stop coming? i find this whole "lets find the exception and frame as a rule on IR's head" a notorious line of thought strewn with good intentions that a fox has while coming to the assistance of a bunny.

jaiganesh wrote:

fring151 wrote:

raaga_suresh wrote:What could have happened at the most is that in certain places in the score, Raja could have told Viji to use these chords and come up with different patterns. And Raja may have approved of them. Atmost that is what could have happened. Because Raja uses lot of scales and it is not easy to set chords to these scales for the chords need to be grammatically correct, there is no way that he can outsource that activity.

That is another possibility.

Viji: "Raja, inga maj 7th chord mark paNNirkIngaLe. maj 9th pOtta nallA irukkAdhu?"

Raja: (Smiles). "Umm..ok. Correctu, nalla idea. Play paNNunga."

Note, there is a one note difference between a maj 7th and maj 9th chord, but substituting one for the other might not always "work".

Or

Viji: " Raja, indha edathula, instead of playing it as a regular chord, arpeggiated chord'A vasichhA, I think it'll sound more dynamic"

Raja: (Nods enthusiastically)

Or he could have played a chord inversion at some place instead of a regular chord, played it on the piano using a different technique and dynamics than what was notated etc and Raja approved. Note that Raja enjoyed a very good rapport with him, having known him since G.K.Venkatesh days and they shared great mutual respect.

With that said, it's highly improbably this happened regularly, purely because of the speed at which IR worked and the mathematical precision of a lot of his music.

Point is when Viji fell ill did the bass lines stop coming? i find this whole "lets find the exception and frame as a rule on IR's head" a notorious line of thought strewn with good intentions that a fox has while coming to the assistance of a bunny.

Already put a disclaimer that it is pure speculation and also ruled out possibility of it being a "rule" due to the speed of proceedings in Prasad studio. But when a card carrying IR fan like Eddie who is also close to Viji (and helping him these days as we saw in the Super singer show) says something, we can't simply dismiss it right? That's why...

Speaking of contrapuntal basslines, I was reminded yesterday of the second interlude of Poonthalir Aada.  I am curious as to how that can be conceived independently.  Surely IR must have conceived it as a contrapuntal section as he wrote it? Even a relatively straight up example like the prelude of Kannan Vandhu Paaduginran, again contrapuntal basslines.  It is difficult to imagine that being conceived by Viji independently devoid of any input or guidelines from IR.  As you have all said, at the most IR may have outlined what he wanted there and Viji might have worked out the actual notes himself.  But that's more of an arranger's job, not a composer.  To say he composed the bass parts would suggest that the very approach to writing those basslines itself was his and not IR's.  I would believe that more easily if bass wasn't such an integral part of IR's music.  It's not an appendage, his compositions would be incomplete without the basslines. Leaving aside Eddie, I am sure violin vicky understands that distinction.  So why would he still make such a statement is the question.

angE oru 13 pEr koNda propoganda committee is working hard. ipdi dhAn "composing in 20 minutes+-ai thangaLukku sollikittAnga. Now they are trying to push the criticism on their man - namely picking from assistant s- to us. Clearly, propoganda.

Viji Manuelukku sheet musicE padikka theriyAdhumbOdhu avar bass line ezhudhinArA?
Note that Raghu wooed Viji during the ASS episode. Vijikku vayasAchu, udambu sariyillai, kAsu thEvai, adhai koduthuttu ipdi oru puraLiyum keLappi irukkalAm. THey will descend to any levels
(Remember the Thevar magan scene - obviously wih a parallel in Godfather probably - of Thalaivaasal Vijay being coerced to sign papers giving away his inheritance by Nasser and co by "oothi  koduthufing"? Viji Manuel = ThalaivAal Vijay, Nasser = Raghu, Madan Bob =Raghu's propoganda committee of 13 people)

plum wrote:angE oru 13 pEr koNda propoganda committee is working hard. ipdi dhAn "composing in 20 minutes+-ai thangaLukku sollikittAnga.

Idhu eppo? EngE? nAn andha FB comments il Sreeni pOtta "spontaneous" comment mattum thAn pAthirkkEn. 20 mins time frame vEra uruvitAngala? 

Would like to hear confirmation from violinvicky if anyone knows him here. Why he says so about the bass guitar part in kOdai kAla kAttRE, what's his source etc...

jaiganesh wrote:

fring151 wrote:

raaga_suresh wrote:What could have happened at the most is that in certain places in the score, Raja could have told Viji to use these chords and come up with different patterns. And Raja may have approved of them. Atmost that is what could have happened. Because Raja uses lot of scales and it is not easy to set chords to these scales for the chords need to be grammatically correct, there is no way that he can outsource that activity.

That is another possibility.

Viji: "Raja, inga maj 7th chord mark paNNirkIngaLe. maj 9th pOtta nallA irukkAdhu?"

Raja: (Smiles). "Umm..ok. Correctu, nalla idea. Play paNNunga."

Note, there is a one note difference between a maj 7th and maj 9th chord, but substituting one for the other might not always "work".

Or

Viji: " Raja, indha edathula, instead of playing it as a regular chord, arpeggiated chord'A vasichhA, I think it'll sound more dynamic"

Raja: (Nods enthusiastically)

Or he could have played a chord inversion at some place instead of a regular chord, played it on the piano using a different technique and dynamics than what was notated etc and Raja approved. Note that Raja enjoyed a very good rapport with him, having known him since G.K.Venkatesh days and they shared great mutual respect.

With that said, it's highly improbably this happened regularly, purely because of the speed at which IR worked and the mathematical precision of a lot of his music.

Point is when Viji fell ill did the bass lines stop coming? i find this whole "lets find the exception and frame as a rule on IR's head" a notorious line of thought strewn with good intentions that a fox has while coming to the assistance of a bunny.

Exactly. I'm more interested in the question, are we getting the bass lines we are used to, from the boss? From when did this slide start? Or is it not to be seen as a slide but rather a departure more generic and not affecting just the bass lines? (IOW, the "he has moved on, you havent" argument)

planning to message him later on youtube. Let's not presume ill will, man has worked with raja sir. Let him clarify (if he wants to)

in before some adivarudi/allakais of VS Narasimhan claim the same bit about strings  
Raaja is simply too proud a man to let some one 'compose' the bass parts..
surely it should have been one off like what Arulmozhi had to do with 'ilam nenje vaa'//

fring151 wrote:

plum wrote:angE oru 13 pEr koNda propoganda committee is working hard. ipdi dhAn "composing in 20 minutes+-ai thangaLukku sollikittAnga.

Idhu eppo? EngE? nAn andha FB comments il Sreeni pOtta "spontaneous" comment mattum thAn pAthirkkEn. 20 mins time frame vEra uruvitAngala? 

Would like to hear confirmation from violinvicky if anyone knows him here. Why he says so about the bass guitar part in kOdai kAla kAttRE, what's his source etc...

idhar aavO: http://forbesindia.com/article/recliner/ar-rahman-and-the-art-of-focus/32584/1

Having shared this, duty bound to direct you to the first 2 comments also. The 2nd comment is the defence now. Spontaneous in creating tunes, taking time to orchestrate and record, who cares about time when end product is good? He is spontaneous in creating tunes.

Drunkenmunk wrote:

fring151 wrote:

plum wrote:angE oru 13 pEr koNda propoganda committee is working hard. ipdi dhAn "composing in 20 minutes+-ai thangaLukku sollikittAnga.

Idhu eppo? EngE? nAn andha FB comments il Sreeni pOtta "spontaneous" comment mattum thAn pAthirkkEn. 20 mins time frame vEra uruvitAngala? 

Would like to hear confirmation from violinvicky if anyone knows him here. Why he says so about the bass guitar part in kOdai kAla kAttRE, what's his source etc...

idhar aavO: http://forbesindia.com/article/recliner/ar-rahman-and-the-art-of-focus/32584/1

Having shared this, duty bound to direct you to the first 2 comments also. The 2nd comment is the defence now. Spontaneous in creating tunes, taking time to orchestrate and record, who cares about time when end product is good? He is spontaneous in creating tunes.

UNmailiye sadhi seyyarAngalA illa namma thAn anAvasiyamA manasa pOttu kozhappikarOmA? Is the biggest-hearted gentleman in IFI really indulging in such subversive propaganda with a deliberate agenda?

+1, we should give it a rest. If Rahman or his cohorts feel he is fast (sic) that's ok. It's the sly "I will compose films as per god's share" comments I object to.

fring151 wrote:
UNmailiye sadhi seyyarAngalA illa namma thAn anAvasiyamA manasa pOttu kozhappikarOmA? Is the biggest-hearted gentleman in IFI really indulging in such subversive propaganda with a deliberate agenda?

I have been having this doubt too. So did some searching. Got this from the archives. Nice interview of Rahman's early days with BH Shahul Hameed. 1994 Pongal, BHSH even quotes his ellA pugazhum iRaivanukkE and they interview kid GVP, KB, Vairamuthu, SPB. SPB, KB speak about him taking time and praise the end product and justify it. I agree. If the end product is good, who is to complain about the process? Fair enough. And it is silly on an IR fan's part to say IR composes at God speed at supreme quality so his method is water proof and ARR taking time to give his end product is flawed. I am quite certain none of us IR fans in this forum at least subscribe to that thought and I am a big fan of 90s ARR music #SupremeCourtDefense

And there is the recent case of composing in under 20 minutes which was simply not consistent with what ARR-fans were talking about. Naturally, this inconsistency was poked and ridiculed by IR fans. ARR fans have responded by saying "just the composition of the tune takes 20 minutes. Not the entire orchestral score and recording." Hmmm... open to debate because by that logic, every composer finishes composing a tune in one sitting and not sariga today, gamapa tomorrow like we discussed here itself before. Even then, I've seen videos where a Vairamuthu spoke about how Vidyasagar took an hour to 2 to come up with Kadhal Vandhaal Solli Anuppu from Iyarkai after he wrote the lyrics and left. So, composing a tune in under 20 minutes is appreciable. Only question being, has there been open claims previously of ARR taking time to compose the melodies itself? In which case, the recent claims of composing in under 20 minutes is open to ridicule.

Coming to the Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AOI8_pPdm14#t=3m watch from 3 minutes, Vairamuthu specifically says "...andha nErathil avar enna seiginRAr enRu enakku theriyum. avar pala mettukkaLai pOttu pOttu azhikkirAr..." Current ARR fan defense: "20 mins of composing is only for the tune and not for orchestrating it." And they might come up with "we haven't heard it from the horse's mouth and the horse says it takes 20 minutes." In which case, Vairamuthu is blabbering.

crimson king wrote:
+1, we should give it a rest. If Rahman or his cohorts feel he is fast (sic) that's ok. It's the sly "I will compose films as per god's share" comments I object to.

God's share? Not sure I am following. I agree we shouldn't care if ARR's fans feel if he is fast. But the fan inconsistency in "why care about time? It is the end product that matters" and "a spontaneous guy who composes in 20 minutes" (Sreeni and other ARR fans) is what is err, a little funny.

ARR idam work seidha Film Directors kite kaetal. unmai theiryum............. Fast aga koduthara epadi koduthar endru........

Publicity kaga.. Edhuvum pesuvar ARR................ idhai vaithu kondu avar peyar,  avarai patri pechu....

Brain illadhavanga seiyara velai.......... 

 ipadi pesi... avaruku  idam kodukanama......

DM: I am referring to that Brangan interview where he said he didn't want to do 30 films a year, just whatever was his share as per God. I didn't like the moralising tone in that statement. But as for speed, it's just overenthusiastic fans. In that forbes interview, he has only said he spends 20-30 minutes in a day on composing, not that he wraps up the tune in 20 minutes. Anyway Raghu fans are a chippy bunch, don't like to admit there may be anything at all in which raja is better. Ignore unless it's a celeb fan like srini.

Link courtesy our SKV at twitter:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/tamil/movies/news-interviews/Bala-wants-to-steal-Ilaiyaraajas-photos/articleshow/29444902.cms

Bala recently visited the composer's photography exhibition, which is being held in the city, and was in awe of the pictures there. We overheard the director commenting, "These are wonderful photographs. If I ask Raja sir for these pictures, he will not give me. So, I'm thinking of ways to steal them from here — I'm so much in love with them!" The National Award-winning director is currently working on a musical script that is likely to have tunes composed by Ilaiyaraaja.

crimson king wrote:DM: I am referring to that Brangan interview where he said he didn't want to do 30 films a year, just whatever was his share as per God. I didn't like the moralising tone in that statement. But as for speed, it's just overenthusiastic fans. In that forbes interview, he has only said he spends 20-30 minutes in a day on composing, not that he wraps up the tune in 20 minutes. Anyway Raghu fans are a chippy bunch, don't like to admit there may be anything at all in which raja is better. Ignore unless it's a celeb fan like srini.

He says it happens in 20-30 minutes. Not more. As I see it, it is too vague and a reader will only assume it is a tune (second comment in this very article is proof and I've seen discussions of his fans being in awe at that *spontaneous* aspect). Anyway, I'm not bothered if he gets in 20 minutes or 1 month. The fan inconsistency was what I was sAdifying. Whether it deserves our ire or not is a different issue. A devil's advocate is essential is my view.

And to be more specific, sAdifying celebrity inconsistency. VM: He composes and rejects his own tune and takes time to get to the final tune (implication of what he said in 1994). Sreeni now: ARR is a spontaneous composer. We can choose to ignore fan inconsistency because they consume what is thrown at them by these celebrities. But these celebs with a voice getting inconsistent most definitely needs a devil's advocate.

I have to disagree respectfully. He says, "There's this Big Bang Moment. It either comes or it doesn't."  So he has clearly implied that there are times probably where nothing happens even in those 20-30 minutes.  And he has not even said what he does compose in those 20-30 minutes.  A full tune or just bits?  Even that big bag moment could be just a snatch of a pallavi (but which might excite him and he might work on it in future).  If people jump to overenthusiastic conclusions on it, I don't think that is Rahman's fault.  I mean that way in the case of so many IR statements that got twisted, the media's interpretation could be held to be correct.   However, things like God's share or "I don't grab work by charging less", I don't like, that's below the belt.

Definitely....Srini's ollarals need to be countered.  Drawing a parallel between ARR and RDB for spontaneity is ridiculous.  RD would wake up from his dreams with a tune.  And RD actually used to take on a lot of projects in the 70s, not just the God given share.  

crimson king wrote:I have to disagree respectfully. He says, "There's this Big Bang Moment. It either comes or it doesn't."  So he has clearly implied that there are times probably where nothing happens even in those 20-30 minutes.  And he has not even said what he does compose in those 20-30 minutes.  A full tune or just bits?  Even that big bag moment could be just a snatch of a pallavi (but which might excite him and he might work on it in future).  If people jump to overenthusiastic conclusions on it, I don't think that is Rahman's fault.  I mean that way in the case of so many IR statements that got twisted, the media's interpretation could be held to be correct.   However, things like God's share or "I don't grab work by charging less", I don't like, that's below the belt.

I agree. I have nothing against Rahman's statements myself (meaning forbes. That God's share needs to countered tooth and nail). It is what folks do with it (fan reactions, going "oh he takes 20 minutes to come up with a tune, what a spontaneous composer"), coupled with Sreeni's puRattu that causes debates. Now, I do feel I might be overreacting in a Raaja thread. Peace.