Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 2

Kamalaakarash wrote: What is absolutely striking (shocking, for Raaja fans) is that Raaja prefers computerized/programmed drumming over live drumming. With that one statement, the pet theory of some Raaja fans that he is more LIVE and less COMPUTERIZED (i saw many raaja fans pedalling this theory to showcase his genius and diss other composers) goes for a toss. 

Interesting observation there. I have read that interview by Mr. Chandavarkar. Absolutely worth storing and reading (in fact, discovered Mahaadev songs through that interview only, as in made me dig the album and listen). But we have read interviews of Raaja that he prefers to keep the sound in the music very real even when he goes for programmed/synth stuff. So I interpret his statement as Raaja preferring computerized over live playing only as far as drumming goes. But a lot of that fan-bravado about recording live can be accepted IMO because I feel there are very few composers like him across the globe who jot down the notes for an entire 100-man orchestra (if the need be) in half an hour and conduct them. Dissing other composers based on this is unwelcome, as unwelcome as it is when other MD fans question if what IR does is a big deal (of course it is!), but this is a unique aspect of IR's. My 2 cents

And CK, I did a superficial check on 1987-88 and kind of zeroed in on 10+ other songs/albums. I expanded the gamut to Electro/synth stuff from that period. If I remember correctly, he introduced synth to Indian film music in Punnagai Mannan in 1986. 1987-88, based on just a superficial skimming tells me he has experimented extensively with electro/synth stuff. In fact, there are 2 English only songs based on club situations I uploaded 3 of the 10 songs since they were not online/on youtube or were in poor quality.

The songs:

1987:
1. I Want To Tell You Something: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuptwfsNpl4, Anand.
2. Hey You You Come To Me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9sCkZlFqOg, Anand.
3. Kaiyaale Type Adikka Thaane: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIOUfp4FJXA, Iniya Uravu Poothadhu. Terrific song with electro/synth/folk music in a totally zany song. Vaali's lyrics are outrageous to the extent I LOLed at a couple of lines, in an enjoyable way i.e.
4. Agni Natchathram album. Quite a rage even today. Mostly electro/synth stuff in primarily Carnatic melodies (Oru Poongavanam; Sudha Dhanyasi like he brilliantly demonstrated at NEPV audio launch, Ninnukori; Mohanam, in fact based off an actual varnam, Vaa Vaa; Sivaranjani, Thoongadha Vizhigal; Amruthavarshini and Raaja Raajadhi Raajan with least Carnatic influence but with zero melodic instruments). Electro/synth because Mani Ratnam asked so.
5. Unnai Naan Paarkiren: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLEe_A2wnk8, Kannukkoru VannakkiLi. Sung by SPB and Asha Bhosle (quite outrageous Tamil there in the final part of the 2nd charanam from Asha   ). Interludes mostly have synth with live orch. Otherwise melody driven song for the most part. Interestingly, song has anther KJY solo version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=zefcFbThTa8
6. Baby You're My Baby: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwiCSqLrTGg, Oruvar Vaazhum Aalayam. Uploaded it myself. Brilliant!
1988:
7. Potta Padiyudhu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgZWQUkAJ6Q, Sathya
8. Uthama Puthiri Naanu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRGLq_cDaPQ, Guru Sishya. Confession: Most favorite song from the film even as a kid due to trippy music, Swarnalatha's mubbu rendition and Seetha   mildly creepy kid, yes.
9. Tell Me Tell Me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w-jTJYvIBI, Manamagaley Vaa. Uploaded.
10. Vaa Veliye: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiPMtm_JMLM, Paadu Nilave. Terrific transitions from Carnatic to rock/electro/synth to folk and back and forth. Uploaded.
11. Sanskrit Disco: http://www.raaga.com/play/?id=1541, Maharshi. Only Telugu song I'm able to recollect from the period. Outstanding, rousing stuff.

And in these years, he also had folk albums like Graamathu Minnal, Enga Ooru Paattukaaran which had little or no electro/synth. There was Nayagan, a period film, Manadhil urudhi Vendum, a mostly semi-classical album. Quite some brilliant variety where there is enough respect for synth/electro stuff.

Drunkenmunk

What is absolutely striking (shocking, for Raaja fans) is that Raaja prefers computerized/programmed drumming over live drumming. With that one statement, the pet theory of some Raaja fans that he is more LIVE and less COMPUTERIZED (i saw many raaja fans pedalling this theory to showcase his genius and diss other composers) goes for a toss. 

Interesting observation there. I have read that interview by Mr. Chandavarkar. Absolutely worth storing and reading (in fact, discovered Mahaadev songs through that interview only, as in made me dig the album and listen). But we have read interviews of Raaja that he prefers to keep the music very real even when he goes for programmed/synth stuff. So I interpret his statement as Raaja preferring computerized over live playing only as far as drumming goes. But a lot of that fan-bravado about recording live can be accepted IMO because I feel there are very few composers like him across the globe who jot down the notes for an entire 100-man orchestra (if the need be) in half an hour and conduct them. Dissing other composers based on this is unwelcome but this is a unique aspect of IR's. My 2 cents

 Of course, I am not contesting the fact that Raaja likes to keep his stuff more real and acoustic (as far as possible, budgets permitting). And agreed that there are very few of his kind. I only meant that - i got bored seeing some fans who kept on pedalling this "Raaja = LIVE :: Others = computer" kind of arbitrary slotting just to keep the Raaja pedestal high. My theory is that, Raaja too was doing everything (not strictly live) and hence I refuse to rate Raaja higher solely on the superficial merit of choice of instruments. I rate him higher for so many other reasons. More so because Raaja has done extensive synth stuff and there were cases when others too went/go for real instruments (for whatever reasons they have). That does not mean that it is not a unique aspect of Raaja. It certainly is. But then, there is more to his output beyond that. If some fans keep pushing around this "Raaja = Real instruments" theory, they will get surprised once he himself reveals some surprising details (like in this case) or once synth dominated albums come about (it happened so many times). I remember one fan bashing some composer for a song in which that composer put a guitar piece on loop. he said, "put a piece on loop and thats it, its so easy these days". Its laughable, because the reason for bashing is that silly. Silly because even Raaja too used such techniques plenty of times. So that shouldn't be a point of discussion IMO. 

The differentiating factor between Raaja and others, IMO, must not be this Live vs. Synth argument (though I agree that it is one of the factors, but off late, Raaja too has been resorting to so much synth, that this factor now, does not hold much water). Its a huge instruments/tools world out there and given the plethora of possibilities and their own interest levels and imaginations, everyone tries everything, in different proportions perhaps. Didn't raaja get some amazing synth stuff in some albums? and there are albums where the synth failed too. I get bored when fans resort to this pseudo-auditing of recording sessions, that too without being actually present in those sessions. 

Will check the songs you posted here.

As for Dilwale, it is not the drumming that got me curious. The chord progressions on guitar. they are kickass. Raaja's genius in full play there. And it is amazing that Raaja uses same mohanam raaga for Ninnu Kori, Dilwale and Nee meedha naaku (Raakshasudu) - all in peppy and groovy mode only.. and yet distinct in treatment. All these songs came about in same time (almost).

kamalaakarsh wrote:
 Of course, I am not contesting the fact that Raaja likes to keep his stuff more real and acoustic (as far as possible, budgets permitting). And agreed that there are very few of his kind. I only meant that - i got bored seeing some fans who kept on pedalling this "Raaja = LIVE :: Others = computer" kind of arbitrary slotting just to keep the Raaja pedestal high. My theory is that, Raaja too was doing everything (not strictly live) and hence I refuse to rate Raaja higher solely on the superficial merit of choice of instruments. I rate him higher for so many other reasons. More so because Raaja has done extensive synth stuff and there were cases when others too went/go for real instruments (for whatever reasons they have). That does not mean that it is not a unique aspect of Raaja. It certainly is. But then, there is more to his output beyond that. If some fans keep pushing around this "Raaja = Real instruments" theory, they will get surprised once he himself reveals some surprising details (like in this case) or once synth dominated albums come about (it happened so many times). I remember one fan bashing some composer for a song in which that composer put a guitar piece on loop. he said, "put a piece on loop and thats it, its so easy these days". Its laughable, because the reason for bashing is that silly. Silly because even Raaja too used such techniques plenty of times. So that shouldn't be a point of discussion IMO. 

Point agreed on. Vis a vis Dilwaale, of course the bass guitar progressions. Terrific

kamalaakarsh wrote:

Anyway, I am surprised that you discovered Mahadev now. Dilwale Raat hai jawan has been a favourite of many raaja fans and the song came into light through an article by guitar prasanna.

I have known about the album for years thanks to itwofs nabbing an instance of Yuvan copying Appanoda paatu but could never find the songs.  Even now just this Dilwale.  I have read that interview before, best IR interview I have come across to date.  Agree about Dilwale chord progressions too.  That is kind of the difference between Dilwale and Chinna Vennila, the bass bouncing around in the former kept me engrossed while in the latter I got a bit restless before the lovely melody resumed.  

Thanks DM for the heads up. Will check out the ones I haven't heard - I know I want to tell you something, Vaa Veliye apart from Agni, but didn't recall those right away the other day!  As for Agni, the difference is he seems to have used live string on Ninu Korri and Oru Poongavanam and live brass on Roja poo so it's more 'hybrid'.  While Dilwale is totally synth; the effect is very 'cool' and sophisticated, sort of an 80s equivalent of West Coast jazz.

These days IR has somewhat expressed a slight preference for live instruments like in a Dhoni teaser or in a Malayalam talk by him that I have seen on youtube.  I am not sure that was the case in the 80s; he might have thought differently about it then.  There was a lot of excitement in the 80s and 90s about synth and computers; composers declared they wouldn't need an orchestra anymore to record their music.  Since last couple of years so, there is a 'live' mania in the air.  I guess everything becomes 'new' again after a while.  I fully agree with Akarsh that that hardly does justice to IR's accomplishments.  It is commendable that he is a master arranger but it is his creativity that sets him apart first and foremost.  Vidyasagar also did some orchestral album that I remember rvijay had pushed heavily on BRangan's blog...that sounded good but not overwhelming.  So it's not just the orchestra that makes the music shine in IR's case; it's the underlying substance.

Another thing about Dilwaale for me is how incredibly "Bollywood" the song sounds to the ears, just like how Tamil, Mallu, Kannada or Telugu his songs sound. He mind blowingly captures the Bollywood spirit without compromising on his musical virtuosity.

+1  Though it's way too good for 1980s Bolly music   , esp mid-late 80s was the pits.

crimson king wrote:  There was a lot of excitement in the 80s and 90s about synth and computers;

Absolutely. You should check out the title card of punnagai mannan. And when you do remember that Rahman played for that film.  

^^ Of course, have heard the title music of PM many times.  Also aware that ARR played on it.  I am not very clear what was his role exactly in Agni, have heard that he contributed the bass tone for Ninu Korri?

And when you do remember that Rahman played for that film.    

  

crimson king wrote:^^ Of course, have heard the title music of PM many times.  Also aware that ARR played on it.  I am not very clear what was his role exactly in Agni, have heard that he contributed the bass tone for Ninu Korri?

stop right there, its just a misnomer that AR played in PM theme, it was apparently in 'Kavidhai Kelungal' and Raasa wasn't much impressed with the output either. GA had said such during a early 90s interview.

I actually meant the title 'card'. Responding to CK's point about how computer music was perceived in the 80s.

This blog has published an IR "interview" to The Hindu in 1993 on RPO symphony :
http://rajasmusic.wordpress.com/2013/12/11/a-symphony-of-success-ilaiyaraaja-interview-in-1993/

Q: How many days did you take to write the symphony?
One month. Some eminent composers have taken three to 14 years. Some others just three days.

Wizzy wrote:

And when you do remember that Rahman played for that film.    

  

crimson king wrote:^^ Of course, have heard the title music of PM many times.  Also aware that ARR played on it.  I am not very clear what was his role exactly in Agni, have heard that he contributed the bass tone for Ninu Korri?

stop right there, its just a misnomer that AR played in PM theme, it was apparently in 'Kavidhai Kelungal' and Raasa wasn't much impressed with the output either. GA had said such during a early 90s interview.

Oh, ok.  And what about Ninu Korri, any truth to that?

crimson king wrote:..
Oh, ok.  And what about Ninu Korri, any truth to that?

Does it matter ? He would have written down the notes and would be watching the young fellows mess around with gadgets for a while, would get bored and go to his room and write some stuff like HTNI or NBW :-)
He has the most boring composition style .. Rahman has nothing to say about him (vs MSVs) in the Super Singer show :-)

Just curiosity, nothing else.

crimson king wrote:

Wizzy wrote:

And when you do remember that Rahman played for that film.    

  

crimson king wrote:^^ Of course, have heard the title music of PM many times.  Also aware that ARR played on it.  I am not very clear what was his role exactly in Agni, have heard that he contributed the bass tone for Ninu Korri?

stop right there, its just a misnomer that AR played in PM theme, it was apparently in 'Kavidhai Kelungal' and Raasa wasn't much impressed with the output either. GA had said such during a early 90s interview.

Oh, ok.  And what about Ninu Korri, any truth to that?

he got chucked after 'Velaikaran' and moved into greener pastures in gult/sweet sambhar land according to this

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=gfCTmjEAChIC&lpg=PA54&dq=Illayaraja&pg=PA44#v=onepage&q=Illayaraja&f=false

some interesting nuggets of what AR thinks about music scene at that time, apparently he wanted to indulge in Jazz so he moved out it seems 

Interesting and funny article by a blogger


http://kbalakumar.com/tag/ilayarajas-symphony/

Wizzy wrote:

crimson king wrote:

Wizzy wrote:

And when you do remember that Rahman played for that film.    

  

crimson king wrote:^^ Of course, have heard the title music of PM many times.  Also aware that ARR played on it.  I am not very clear what was his role exactly in Agni, have heard that he contributed the bass tone for Ninu Korri?

stop right there, its just a misnomer that AR played in PM theme, it was apparently in 'Kavidhai Kelungal' and Raasa wasn't much impressed with the output either. GA had said such during a early 90s interview.

Oh, ok.  And what about Ninu Korri, any truth to that?

he got chucked after 'Velaikaran' and moved into greener pastures in gult/sweet sambhar land according to this

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=gfCTmjEAChIC&lpg=PA54&dq=Illayaraja&pg=PA44#v=onepage&q=Illayaraja&f=false

some interesting nuggets of what AR thinks about music scene at that time, apparently he wanted to indulge in Jazz so he moved out it seems 

Couldn't find where it says he was chucked out but he does seem to have said he got himself a keyboard from Singapore and after that decided to quit from Raja's troupe.

crimson king wrote:
Couldn't find where it says he was chucked out but he does seem to have said he got himself a keyboard from Singapore and after that decided to quit from Raja's troupe.

Yeah. But I scrolled up a few pages to read what SA Rajkumar had to say:

SAR wrote:
Dileep was always ambitious, says S.A. Rajkumar, another composer. 'First he had the guts to stop playing for Illayaraja and start playing for other composers. He also used to tell me that to beat Illayaraja you need a big force. We thought it would take just a song, a tune, to beat Illayaraja. And all of us had a few songs that had beaten Illayaraja's tunes. But then he would always bounce back with a bumper hit like Chinna Thambi and we would all go crawling back into our holes. Dileep used to always say that it was going to take much more than a tune, it was a whole new sound that was needed to overthrow Illayaraja. And he did it. He created a whole new sound. Not just a tune and a song, but a whole new sound. That's what caught Raja by surprise. And that's what he did with Roja.'

As I see it, SAR means commercially beating Raaja. Musically I disagree anyone could beat IR into the mid 90s or even now. Everyone could have had their own musical philosophies to composing music and maybe I like Raaja's the most but even then, Raaja's musical philosophy is very sound even today and a combination of factors like commercial non-viability, low budgets meaning less of live recording and more of low budget synth might be at play today. But every now and then, he comes back with an NEPV or Onaayum Attukuttiyum, no matter how badly the film fares. And he's been doing this even since ARR's time. Raaja still has his very own special space in the musical world. Film music world is a different beast but the musical world can exist under the film music world. What I find interesting is ARR's spunk and lack of respect for Raaja's music (which is totally fine, in fact I find it enjoyable). It played and still plays a role in the music ARR produces and the niche he's carved for himself. Without this spunk and ego, he'd be a doormat.

^^^ Well, most film personalities, with a few notable exceptions like IR himself, only think about commercial success anyway.  Rajesh Roshan mentioned of how he was no.1 in the 80s and lost his head in spite of well wishers warning him.  Er, what about the quality of output he delivered even when (and if?) he was no.1?  

Anyhow, I found that and some other extracts so intriguing I just ordered the book.  One of his friends has described ARR as a thorough businessman and not necessarily in a bad sense.  ARR is certainly very smart in terms of positioning himself.  If ARR really said that at that time in the mid 80s, that it would take a big force to commercially surpass IR, it shows how perceptive he was and probably the reason why he succeeded where the likes of SAR or Chandrabose failed.  Elsewhere ARR has actually appreciated the experience of working with IR as a great learning but I can see why as a creative person itching to express himself, he would have wanted to do his own thing eventually.  

It seems that the contents of the book made ARR's coterie aghast and it was described as an unauthorised biography.  That makes it even more intriguing for me.  There may be a lot of gossip talk passed off as fact but it least doesn't seem to be a tome full of platitudes singing incessant praises of ARR.

Hahaha that reaction from the fans is on expected lines. But even otherwise, ARR succeeding where an SAR, Chandrabose or Deva failed might not be just because of smart positioning. The sheer talent gap was there to see. ARR had that head start in terms of talent, ambition and seeing what it takes to take down Raaja like you mentioned. And yeah, I read that part about being a businessman too. Intriguing like you say.

Drunkenmunk wrote:Hahaha that reaction from the fans is on expected lines. But even otherwise, ARR succeeding where an SAR, Chandrabose or Deva failed might not be just because of smart positioning. The sheer talent gap was there to see. ARR had that head start in terms of talent, ambition and seeing what it takes to take down Raaja. And yeah, I read that part about being a businessman too. Intriguing like you say.

Yeah, I didn't mean that he succeeded because of smart positioning, though I wrote something about how good he is at that.  As I said and which you have expressed in different words, he seems to have been very perceptive.  He clearly understood it would take nothing short of a totally different sound and style from what the audience was used to and what IR himself favoured.  And yes, he had the talent as well as the ambition and hunger to actually achieve it.  If somebody like SAR thought they could beat IR with 'that one tune', it shows their thinking in a narrow light.  ARR understood how versatile IR was and that only a complete change in musical philosophy would help him win over the audience.

Yeah I agree with what you say totally.

What S A Rajkumar says was a common perception in the early days of Rahman. This was discussed in tfmpage ad nauseum because we had lyricists and amateur composers there. For eg, the familiar sounds in IR's songs - strings, drums etc were all gone and/or replaced with different sounds. Re: businessman. Of course, he is a very good one. IR lacks business and people skills completely. He is up there today purely on his musical output/talent. For Rahman, success has come from a variety of his skill sets, especially his passion for technology. Even today, his songs have the highest sound engineering qualities. He also has a very good aesthetics on sounds, which makes his songs always pleasant to hear. Note, they do not give an Oscar to any tom, dick and harry. He IS amazing. Raaja is different, he might have done or doing commerical art, but he is in a different plane. The Oscar awards or other awards may not notice him, but he is creating a formidable legacy, which people will be researching and analyzing for another 50 years.