Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 2

Wizzy wrote:ye lets blame it on KR   any list of songs/albums he had worked.. Aatma/Pandiyan aside anything else?

some big name disappointments like my dear marthandan

is this a typo? else  

Ya was waiting for a first shock to register my next shock. My Dear Marthandan aa?! Ilavattam 1 song's enuff ya. idhula Oh Maharaja, Uttalakuudi, Satham Varaamal, Paakku Vethalu all are my top favorites

KR has worked on Oru Oorula Oru Raajakumari. But then, I do like Aatma and OOOR quite a lot But I guess Nerd's point is on KR being the sound engineer for IR's songs than assisting him in the compositions.

Yes munkji. We talked about the beats in konji konji. Raaja wrote the notes and let his son do the synth work and programming is my best guess. I like that song btw.

I agree with most of what Nerd wrote. I dont know who was responsible for the beats. But in all KR's works, the harmony is just a repetition of the main melody, which annoys the heck out of me. If IR does it, he has that for only one line or so. One of the reasons KR never succeeded as a MD in my opinion. Re: synths - KR just went straight to the biggest pioneers in synth usage like Enya (eg. OOR) but this model completely gives a different 'sound and feel'. Rahman's use of synth is a modified sound of real instruments. Just a touch to avoid the familiar sounds. So in contrast KR's consulting for IR on this front did not work. It is not that IR does not know the sound engineering techniques of Rahman. Yuvan almost got the 'sound' of Rahman in his very first album itself (poovellaam kEttuppaar). Later HJ and others were able to recreate the sound of Rahman's songs.
If IR is not doing it is mainly a matter of choice/style and his personality :-)

app_engine wrote:

Raaga_Suresh wrote:http://onlyraja.wordpress.com/2014/01/14/parallel-processing-of-raja/

Fantastic Sureshji!

These two songs will take on any 70s or 80s songs and will come out the winner

Me, a certified "primarily-80's-IRF", has to agree to this

Well, in my case, the 80's inclination is purely nostalgia-based and not exactly IR-kwality based

(BTW, for a given circumstance , I can point out 100's of IR songs from 80's that didn't click with me   At present I'm catalog-ing 1986 TFM of IR, to get IR-VM hit list in the VM thread. And all I can see is just about 50% hit-rate by rAsA in that year, in TFM)

My favorite in pazhassi raaja is aadhi ushass. Even earlier Suresh and V_S explained the nuances of these song to me (i was bothered by the tension in the rhythm in the charanam and V_S or Suresh said thats the point) . But I think 80's is mainly as pointed out by Nerd the bassline which sort of disappeared to some extent in the 90s. Also, the 80s is characterized by 'moments of brilliance' from the strings/orchestra. The bass line has started appearing and the orchestra is now center stage. TIS is the culmination of all the techniques and NEPV/Megha is the application of these techniques for the film songs. IR started out in chennai with the main of doing orchestral music and he has gotten very close to his goal.
I hope Megha gets released and becomes a hit. I then would accept our people have taste :-)

Raaga_Suresh wrote:My latest on Raja blog. Parallel Processing of Raja. Both from 2009 and show in what superb form he is in. These two songs will take on any 70s or 80s songs and will come out the winner

http://onlyraja.wordpress.com/2014/01/14/parallel-processing-of-raja/

Sureshji,
Brilliant write-up taking melody and rhythm aspects and analyzing to bring in the emotional contrast in each of the composition Wow! Nicely done.
Nice coinage - Parallel Processing. True!

Wizzy wrote:ye lets blame it on KR   any list of songs/albums he had worked.. Aatma/Pandiyan aside anything else?

some big name disappointments like my dear marthandan

is this a typo? else  

Nope, not a typo.  I did not like My dear marthandan songs.

crimson king wrote:

Wizzy wrote:ye lets blame it on KR   any list of songs/albums he had worked.. Aatma/Pandiyan aside anything else?

some big name disappointments like my dear marthandan

is this a typo? else  

Nope, not a typo.  I did not like My dear marthandan songs.

dagalti kaNdi irundhirukkaNum...

Thanks app, kiru and V_S.

kiru,

'adhi ushas' is an outstanding song and so is 'ala madangana'. Infact the whole Pazhassiraja album is 24 carat gold.

It is possible that KR was involved in rhythm/synth programming (based on what we hear from various sources including Raja and Karthik Raja) but when the song goes out on Raja's name, there is no backdoor escape. The responsibility will be Raja's and we need to accept that. I still am surprised as to why it took Raja so long to get the right kind of sound engineer. As kiru says, YSR, Harris and everyone else gets the Rahman level sound quality very easily. I think Raja / Karthik Raja were trying something else those days. Infact Deva got quite decent sound after Rahman's entry. Like 'pul veli pul veli', and songs from 'Nerukku Ner' etc. Anyway that will remain a mystery until Raja or KR tells us what was in their minds during those times.

Having said that, I am so used to listening to 32kbps encoding of Carnatic music that my ears always hear the idea than the actual execution. So synth has never been a major problem for me after a couple of listens but yes, initially you do feel that the sound quality is not upto the mark. As Aakarsh said, we don't have much to complain now but in the late 90s this was definitely a problem.

^^^ Further, if we do proceed on the assumption that KR no longer works on IR's soundtracks, I don't find the approach to using synth on say Ennodu Vaa Vaa particularly different from what he was doing in late 90s or so.  Better recorded, easier on the ears, yes.

Drunkenmunk wrote:

Wizzy wrote:ye lets blame it on KR   any list of songs/albums he had worked.. Aatma/Pandiyan aside anything else?

some big name disappointments like my dear marthandan

is this a typo? else  

Ya was waiting for a first shock to register my next shock. My Dear Marthandan aa?! Ilavattam 1 song's enuff ya. idhula Oh Maharaja, Uttalakuudi, Satham Varaamal, Paakku Vethalu all are my top favorites

KR has worked on Oru Oorula Oru Raajakumari. But then, I do like Aatma and OOOR quite a lot :)But I guess Nerd's point is on KR being the sound engineer for IR's songs than assisting him in the compositions.

It just felt - and still feels, as I listen to it again - so 'commercial', no songs with a haunting quality, just stuff that is nice to listen to as long as it lasts.  Maybe that's not necessarily his fault (it was a silly film imo), but - see Akarsh's earlier comments - that formula was being milked dry at that time.  There were some songs where his melodies still sparkled in spite of the commercial requirements, but not on MMM (for me).  I can't explain why I find Singaravelan a lot catchier than MMM, it's quite possible that it's exactly the opposite for others.  At any rate, neither albums have one WOW number like Mazhai Varudhu or Aghaya Veenilave, IMO (EDIT: wait, Singaravelan had Innum Ennai Enna Seiiya, so that's why I like it more   ).  Paaku Vethala roughly 'equates' to Kehladee En on Gopura Vaasalile .  That is a good song but without Kadhal Kavithaigal/Thalatum Poongatru I would not rate Gopura...very highly.

Karthik Raaja is very much working with Raaja. What else do you think the guy does?

GVM did acknowledge him (Karthik, thanks for your synth programming) in the NEPV audio release.

crimson king wrote:That is a good song but without Kadhal Kavithaigal I would not rate Gopura...very highly.

  

Nerd wrote:Karthik Raaja is very much working with Raaja. What else do you think the guy does?

Touche!  So it's good that nowadays IR is using synth prominently in one or two tracks out of five rather than four out of five!

V_S wrote:

crimson king wrote:That is a good song but without Kadhal Kavithaigal I would not rate Gopura...very highly.

  

OK, add Thalatum Poongatru to that.    Not THAT fond of Devadhai and definitely don't like Priyasaki.

Karthik Raaja is very much working with Raaja. What else do you think the guy does?   

never knew the extent of damage   thought it was some rumour mill started by KR fan(s) to big him up  

Ck, ain't prejudging, for sure you got some weird taste wrt Raaja  

I am very, very selective so if that comes across as weird, I can live with that.  Besides I am not much of a film music buff, I just look for something that's soulful and increasingly that and film music are becoming incompatible.

SJ Surya interview to "The Hindu"

இன்னும் சொல்ல வேண்டுமென்றால் ராஜா சார் இசைப்பயணத்தைப் பற்றி சொல்ல வேண்டியதில்லை. அவர் இதற்கெல்லாம் அப்பாற்பட்டவர். என் படத்தில் சித்தரிப்பதால்தான் அவரது வெற்றி இருக்கிறதா என்ன? நான் இங்கே யார் மனதையும் புண்படுத்த வரவில்லை. எனக்கு படம் செய்ய ஒரு களம் தேவைப்பட்டது. அவ்வளவுதான். இந்தப்படத்துக்கும், என் கதைக்கும் அப்பார்ப்பட்ட ஜீனியஸ் ராஜா சார். மற்றவை எல்லாம் நான் முன் சொன்னதைப்போல வதந்தி.

Raaga_Suresh wrote:Thanks app, kiru and V_S.

kiru,

'adhi ushas' is an outstanding song and so is 'ala madangana'. Infact the whole Pazhassiraja album is 24 carat gold.

It is possible that KR was involved in rhythm/synth programming (based on what we hear from various sources including Raja and Karthik Raja) but when the song goes out on Raja's name, there is no backdoor escape. The responsibility will be Raja's and we need to accept that. I still am surprised as to why it took Raja so long to get the right kind of sound engineer. As kiru says, YSR, Harris and everyone else gets the Rahman level sound quality very easily. I think Raja / Karthik Raja were trying something else those days. Infact Deva got quite decent sound after Rahman's entry. Like 'pul veli pul veli', and songs from 'Nerukku Ner' etc. Anyway that will remain a mystery until Raja or KR tells us what was in their minds during those times.

Having said that, I am so used to listening to 32kbps encoding of Carnatic music that my ears always hear the idea than the actual execution. So synth has never been a major problem for me after a couple of listens but yes, initially you do feel that the sound quality is not upto the mark. As Aakarsh said, we don't have much to complain now but in the late 90s this was definitely a problem.

Well Suresh..I think we are yet to see some consistency in recording quality. I do not like the quality in CNC or Naadi T. I really dont understand whats going on. Maybe it is the recording style - with IR the instruments are behind the voice , whereas the new guys put the instruments upclose and add lots of space around the vocals. Maybe because of this we think there is no clarity in the sound of the instruments. NEPV/Megha escape this fate because of being recorded in a completely different acoustic space and different style. oru oorla seems different and could sound better inspite of being synth. Waiting for the CD from a dear friend :-)

To some extent I am like you on the recording quality - avathaaram was all synths ..done in 1995..who can say they dont enjoy it ? (or for that matter the awesome kochu kochu santhoshangaL)

All of which raises the question what is the synth equipment being used presently and how do his recording facilities in Chennai compare to Rahman's studio. IR did use synth quite beautifully in Raja Raja Cholan or other songs from that period.  What changed in the 90s?  I agree with you, CNC recording is not as good as NEPV/Megha but the latter were recorded and mixed in world class studios abroad.  Even in CNC, I am more uncomfortable with Kallale Senju rather than Nandri Solla Vendum or Kalaiyile, so the synths are the problem.

crimson king wrote:All of which raises the question what is the synth equipment being used presently and how do his recording facilities in Chennai compare to Rahman's studio. IR did use synth quite beautifully in Raja Raja Cholan or other songs from that period.  What changed in the 90s?  I agree with you, CNC recording is not as good as NEPV/Megha but the latter were recorded and mixed in world class studios abroad.  Even in CNC, I am more uncomfortable with Kallale Senju rather than Nandri Solla Vendum or Kalaiyile, so the synths are the problem.

I think the hardware is same or comparable. It is probably the mixing/effects and/or the software used. The 'effects' used is probably a matter of style/approach. Please see my comment on voice/instrument positioning in my earlier post. Maybe you can listen to Rahman song and IR song back-to-back and verify whether I am right/wrong about this.

crimson wrote:king

kamalaakarsh wrote:

continue

to discover more) and when i see the bigger pattern of an onslaught of certain themed (musically) films in 90s (where i felt monotonity).. like say Chinna Tmabi and all (which btw, is an unimpressive album for 'me')... and then slowly the pattern changes to some strong synth laden albums (sambhu etc), i just wonder if the shift to synth if deliberate or market forces!!! (again plz dont come back saying that raaja was using synth earlier.. i know.. but here what i mean is different).

Wow.  Chinnathambi is def one of my folk favourites of IR.  Just the second interlude of Povomo Oorvolam is enough.  I am curious as to what folk based albums of his do you like, what kind of, etc.  I wonder if you like Periya Veetu Pannaikaaran (probably not if you didn't like CT).  I am quite a sucker for IR-folk, the only folk music I have ever really liked, though not as much as people like Suresh or plum.

 CK,

Can't suddenly recollect. But just to give an idea, I like folk that is a cut different from the usual one. I mean, I understand why Raaja has to give Chinna Thambi kind of albums. But when he does something like say  "kanni ponni kaimele" (Ninaivelam Nithya), I sit up. Now thats different. Or even Chitthira Sevvaanam song. or that song in Virumandi.. cant recollect lyrics.. but it has female chorus and Kamal Haasan singing. kickass stuff. I am not a fan of "Maanguyile maanguyile" song and the likes. Can't explain why or can't place my finger on what exactly differentiates. The recent folk song I liked of his was that song from Pazhassi raaja "anbum konbum". And for me a song like "Kaiveesi" (Nandalala) is also folk base... but he made it sound so anthemic. I really love that composition. oh there are many which I like. But there are many which i dont like as well. Probably they fit well in the film but.

NerdInteresting discussions in the last few pages.

Lot of references to 'an external factor or a stimuli'. I know what or who it is. It is not Rahman but Karthik Raaja. Yes, I attribute everything bad about (mid, late 90s) Raaja's music, particularly the sound to KR. And I know I am right.

And the only thing that differentiats his 80s output with the late 90s is the bassline. I mean I really miss the youthful exuberance of a megam kottattum, particularly the bassline. It has to partly do with the type of films he was working on too.

I really don't have any problems with his albums until say 97. Its only the period between 98 and naan kadavuL that I have not warmed up to. Luckily he hasnt done many movies in that period.

This I agree. There are certain jarring synth elements, which, inside of my heart, i know that was not coming from Raaja. And my grouse with Raaja is - why allow KR spoil his songs!!!

Raaga_Suresh wrote: I still am surprised as to why it took Raja so long to get the right kind of sound engineer. 

Baffling indeed. And add the shocking fact, as shared by a kannada instrumentalist/composer on mayyam forum about 2 years ago, that Raaja allowed Uttam Singh, who has zero knowledge on sound engineering, to record, engineer and mix some raaja's albums - it gets even more baffling.

Even the relatively recent Malayalam album - Sooriyan - had recording issues. Remember the awesome song 'Vasantha Nilavil'. The volume of instruments (synth percussions) is ear-drum-shatteringly high.

Sticking to one (or a team of) sound engineer (who has equal interest and knowledge) really helps in transposing composer's vision, album after album. ARR has that. Vishal Bharadwaj has his own team. And not just these folks. Even R.D.Burman had his own standard team. And something tells me that Raaja too had his standard team, at least in 80s. There are many albums where the audio dynamics are consistent. Something went wrong in 90s. or rather since 90s. Because even now, I think the sound engineer varies from album to album. The inconsistency in team exists even now - although I do not have any major complaints with the output quality of albums in the last 7-8 years (exceptions exist, like Sooriyan).

kamalaakarsh wrote:
 CK,

Can't suddenly recollect. But just to give an idea, I like folk that is a cut different from the usual one. I mean, I understand why Raaja has to give Chinna Thambi kind of albums. But when he does something like say  "kanni ponni kaimele" (Ninaivelam Nithya), I sit up. Now thats different. Or even Chitthira Sevvaanam song. or that song in Virumandi.. cant recollect lyrics.. but it has female chorus and Kamal Haasan singing. kickass stuff. I am not a fan of "Maanguyile maanguyile" song and the likes. Can't explain why or can't place my finger on what exactly differentiates. The recent folk song I liked of his was that song from Pazhassi raaja "anbum konbum". And for me a song like "Kaiveesi" (Nandalala) is also folk base... but he made it sound so anthemic. I really love that composition. oh there are many which I like. But there are many which i dont like as well. Probably they fit well in the film but.

Just curious. I think you might have heard this, but what do you think about a folk song like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSKzIpUtHGM Because this is the kind of folk from Raaja that blows me away every time.