Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 2

Drunkenmunk wrote:


Just curious. I think you might have heard this, but what do you think about a folk song like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSKzIpUtHGM Because this is the kind of folk from Raaja that blows me away every time.

I like this. There is a Yesudas version of this song right? Nice song. Although, I'd be bored if an album has all songs in a similar mode (with same rhythm & similar style). There are many folk-ish songs that I like.

Ya duet by KJY and Swarnalatha. There is another folk song, Kottaiya Vittu Vettaikki Pogum Sudala Maadan Saamy. That song, from reliable sources, is still revered as an anthemic invocation song to the village deity in Southern TN Terrific orchestration and 3 versions from SPB, S Janaki and Uma Ramanan. Incredible nativity.

kamalaakarsh wrote:

Drunkenmunk wrote:


Just curious. I think you might have heard this, but what do you think about a folk song like this? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSKzIpUtHGM Because this is the kind of folk from Raaja that blows me away every time.

I like this. There is a Yesudas version of this song right? Nice song. Although, I'd be bored if an album has all songs in a similar mode (with same rhythm & similar style). There are many folk-ish songs that I like.

Saar... all disco beats are the same, all hip-hop beats are the same . that is a genre .. this is a genre .. for eg. kottaiya vittu .. is basically our folk dance beat.. we just have to give it a name (maybe there is one and i dont know).
IR has done so many songs in (kOttaiya vittu) this rhythm .. just some different different instruments/sounds .. you need to focus on the lyrics/emotions in these..

kamalaakarsh wrote:

crimson wrote:king

kamalaakarsh wrote:

continue

to discover more) and when i see the bigger pattern of an onslaught of certain themed (musically) films in 90s (where i felt monotonity).. like say Chinna Tmabi and all (which btw, is an unimpressive album for 'me')... and then slowly the pattern changes to some strong synth laden albums (sambhu etc), i just wonder if the shift to synth if deliberate or market forces!!! (again plz dont come back saying that raaja was using synth earlier.. i know.. but here what i mean is different).

Wow.  Chinnathambi is def one of my folk favourites of IR.  Just the second interlude of Povomo Oorvolam is enough.  I am curious as to what folk based albums of his do you like, what kind of, etc.  I wonder if you like Periya Veetu Pannaikaaran (probably not if you didn't like CT).  I am quite a sucker for IR-folk, the only folk music I have ever really liked, though not as much as people like Suresh or plum.

 CK,

Can't suddenly recollect. But just to give an idea, I like folk that is a cut different from the usual one. I mean, I understand why Raaja has to give Chinna Thambi kind of albums. But when he does something like say  "kanni ponni kaimele" (Ninaivelam Nithya), I sit up. Now thats different. Or even Chitthira Sevvaanam song. or that song in Virumandi.. cant recollect lyrics.. but it has female chorus and Kamal Haasan singing. kickass stuff. I am not a fan of "Maanguyile maanguyile" song and the likes. Can't explain why or can't place my finger on what exactly differentiates. The recent folk song I liked of his was that song from Pazhassi raaja "anbum konbum". And for me a song like "Kaiveesi" (Nandalala) is also folk base... but he made it sound so anthemic. I really love that composition. oh there are many which I like. But there are many which i dont like as well. Probably they fit well in the film but.

Got it.  Actually to me a song like Chitthira Sevvanam sounds Salil-ish.  Personally, the heavy rustic element is what drives me away from folk so what I like about quintessential Raja folk like Chinna Thambi or Karagatakaran music is it is so melodic.  I need a lot of melody in Indian music.  Can't explain why, just the way my tastes have evolved.  Kodiyile is probably my favourite of all his folk songs...OR Adi Athadi, tough call between the two.

kiru wrote:

crimson king wrote:All of which raises the question what is the synth equipment being used presently and how do his recording facilities in Chennai compare to Rahman's studio. IR did use synth quite beautifully in Raja Raja Cholan or other songs from that period.  What changed in the 90s?  I agree with you, CNC recording is not as good as NEPV/Megha but the latter were recorded and mixed in world class studios abroad.  Even in CNC, I am more uncomfortable with Kallale Senju rather than Nandri Solla Vendum or Kalaiyile, so the synths are the problem.

I think the hardware is same or comparable. It is probably the mixing/effects and/or the software used. The 'effects' used is probably a matter of style/approach. Please see my comment on voice/instrument positioning in my earlier post. Maybe you can listen to Rahman song and IR song back-to-back and verify whether I am right/wrong about this.  

I am not an expert on this anyway.   I do agree, it does seem to be the case.  I am just curious why that is a problem in IR's modern recordings - pushing the voice to the front is not necessarily something that would reduce clarity.  It must indeed be a case of not so good mixing.

crimson king wrote:

kamalaakarsh wrote:

crimson wrote:king

kamalaakarsh wrote:

continue

to discover more) and when i see the bigger pattern of an onslaught of certain themed (musically) films in 90s (where i felt monotonity).. like say Chinna Tmabi and all (which btw, is an unimpressive album for 'me')... and then slowly the pattern changes to some strong synth laden albums (sambhu etc), i just wonder if the shift to synth if deliberate or market forces!!! (again plz dont come back saying that raaja was using synth earlier.. i know.. but here what i mean is different).

Wow.  Chinnathambi is def one of my folk favourites of IR.  Just the second interlude of Povomo Oorvolam is enough.  I am curious as to what folk based albums of his do you like, what kind of, etc.  I wonder if you like Periya Veetu Pannaikaaran (probably not if you didn't like CT).  I am quite a sucker for IR-folk, the only folk music I have ever really liked, though not as much as people like Suresh or plum.

 CK,

Can't suddenly recollect. But just to give an idea, I like folk that is a cut different from the usual one. I mean, I understand why Raaja has to give Chinna Thambi kind of albums. But when he does something like say  "kanni ponni kaimele" (Ninaivelam Nithya), I sit up. Now thats different. Or even Chitthira Sevvaanam song. or that song in Virumandi.. cant recollect lyrics.. but it has female chorus and Kamal Haasan singing. kickass stuff. I am not a fan of "Maanguyile maanguyile" song and the likes. Can't explain why or can't place my finger on what exactly differentiates. The recent folk song I liked of his was that song from Pazhassi raaja "anbum konbum". And for me a song like "Kaiveesi" (Nandalala) is also folk base... but he made it sound so anthemic. I really love that composition. oh there are many which I like. But there are many which i dont like as well. Probably they fit well in the film but.

Got it.  Actually to me a song like Chitthira Sevvanam sounds Salil-ish.  Personally, the heavy rustic element is what drives me away from folk so what I like about quintessential Raja folk like Chinna Thambi or Karagatakaran music is it is so melodic.  I need a lot of melody in Indian music.  Can't explain why, just the way my tastes have evolved.  Kodiyile is probably my favourite of all his folk songs...OR Adi Athadi, tough call between the two.

Aakarsh, 

What about songs from "KaraiyellAm shenbagappoo". The songs "Eriyile ILandha maram" and "kAdellam pichipoovu"? Are these down your alley? Highly harmonized folk for sure.

kamalaakarsh wrote:

Raaga_Suresh wrote: I still am surprised as to why it took Raja so long to get the right kind of sound engineer. 

Baffling indeed. And add the shocking fact, as shared by a kannada instrumentalist/composer on mayyam forum about 2 years ago, that Raaja allowed Uttam Singh, who has zero knowledge on sound engineering, to record, engineer and mix some raaja's albums - it gets even more baffling.

Even the relatively recent Malayalam album - Sooriyan - had recording issues. Remember the awesome song 'Vasantha Nilavil'. The volume of instruments (synth percussions) is ear-drum-shatteringly high.

Sticking to one (or a team of) sound engineer (who has equal interest and knowledge) really helps in transposing composer's vision, album after album. ARR has that. Vishal Bharadwaj has his own team. And not just these folks. Even R.D.Burman had his own standard team. And something tells me that Raaja too had his standard team, at least in 80s. There are many albums where the audio dynamics are consistent. Something went wrong in 90s. or rather since 90s. Because even now, I think the sound engineer varies from album to album. The inconsistency in team exists even now - although I do not have any major complaints with the output quality of albums in the last 7-8 years (exceptions exist, like Sooriyan).

kamalaakarsh .. you have been articulate here. Also, appreciate your patience inspite of our friends prodding , "how come you dont like this ?" sort of comments :-)
Sound engineering is not supposed to be that high tech !!! Each instruments has a level (volume) and it is either placed left/right close to the singer or behind him/her. But with the advent of technology things have become complex. Same thing has happened to photography - there are only two parameter - exposure time and aperture. Look at how people are beating Photoshop. Now you can create a photograph literally from bits and pieces. Music also has become like that.
I even heard IR who used to do photography with a Leica (!!) has given up when he saw this Photoshopping trend.
So take any comment on Uttam etc with a pinch of salt. The man is strong on fundamentals (also, I suspect when tested for IQ he will be very very high..Mensa category) . Others might be commercially successful for a variety of reasons. You only have to ask yourself who gives authentic, soul-stirring music for you. If the music does not touch your heart it is just some cool sound. Thats it.

yes, "karaiyellAm shenbagapoo" is one awesome, esoteric folk album; experimental.

I am very fond of the early Raja folk like "kothamalli poove", "sOLam vedhakkayilE", "maaman oru naaL malliyapoo", "manja kuLichhu" and many more. They had lush interludes with guitars, flute, violins and a wonderful tune packed with delicious surprises. I found the tune chartering along predicable route coupled with minimalistic orchestration from some of the late 90's folk albums like veera thAlAttu, nAttu pura pAttu etc till recent ones like "sengAthu bhoomi". Few songs were even rehashes of hit folk songs like "mAnguyilE" , "madura marikozhundhu" . I mean a Chitra song from the movie "saadhu" that is dangerously resembling "mAnguyilE". There were some fabulous folk during the 90's too like "thoothukudi muthu muthu"  from a Rajkiran movie "ellAmE rAsA thAn" ? , "rAsAvE unnai vida mAttEn" from the movie  aRaNmaNai kiLi"

kiru:  Since you brought up the topic of complexity of modern technology, I want to mention that K S Ravikumar was actually talking about this in a Pongal special interview.  It was quite interesting and I had to leave for work - no Pongal leavu in Mumbai - so couldn't watch the full thing.  I don't know the exact specs but he said something like there were only 16 tracks (or was it 8? ) in the old days and artists tried to achieve the best sound they could manage within those constraints.  Today the composer can look at the track for each instrument separately and make changes if he so desires.  As a result, according to KSR, it actually takes more time now to wrap up albums than before.  Now that they have the option, they want to use technology to drill down every aspect and make sure.  The question that neither the interviewers addressed nor he answered was in what way has it actually improved the art being published.  Though, IIRC, KSR did say something about how even with the limited tech of that time, artists were able to please the audience.  

In other words, perhaps the relative standardisation of old recordings could also be down to the limitations of technology back then.  It may be a deliberate choice to let recordings from different films sound different in some way these days - it is one way of breaking the monotony.  ARR's recordings on say JTJH and Kadal don't really sound similar.  The difference is both recordings are very good quality whereas it seems to oscillate in IR's case.  

Tech is a double edged sword.  I don't mind if the artists want to use it to agonise over minor details and fix them because audience can also get unduly nitpick-y about trivial aspects so if there is a way to avoid a minor blemish, why not.  My fear is if they start believing that technology is some sort of panacea to all problems.  It is not a substitute at the end of the day to skills and craftsmanship.  The difference brought out by skills may not be evident on casual listening but it matters to those who are interested in the nuances.  I think it has already had a detrimental impact on vocals which is unfortunate as it is the most important factor in 'humanizing' the music for the audience.  Nicole Scherzinger's super polished recording of Don't Cry for Me Argentina can't hold a candle to Karen Carpenter.  Why have skills begun to slide backward in the same period that technology has improved by leaps and bounds.

Eighteenth Parallel ‏

naan Fb il ilali. ivar solra paatu enna.. details venum. Rare songs elalm solrar nu nenaikaren.

paatu enna nu sonna kuda podhum.. paatai thedi kaetupen..........

CR,

Quite late and feeling sleepy. So will write in more detail later. As of now let me say I agree with you fully on this aspect.

I keep listening to Blues of old masters like Robert Johnson, San House, Blind Willie McTell, Howling Wolf etc. The recording may not be great but I just can't stand the crystal clear and polished recording of Blues in the modern age. Some soul is missing.

^^^  Definitely doesn't work so well for genres where a rough, abrasive sound is preferred like blues, hard rock/heavy metal, even some genres of jazz.  It works for stuff like classical music, smooth jazz, electronic music. Even our traditional instruments don't sound the 'same' with polished recordings. A real molam doesn't sound polished, it's really loud, it's kickass.    But I guess people got tired of the old, raw recordings and mr.you know who filled the breach in the 90s.  Now some musicians are trying to see how to make at least the performance during the recording less precise and more organic, 'human'.  The question is are there musicians who understand how to do that in an aesthetically appealing way.  Atif Aslam sounds bad enough in pitch corrected recordings, what will he do in a raw setting.  

kiru wrote:

kamalaakarsh wrote:

Raaga_Suresh wrote: I still am surprised as to why it took Raja so long to get the right kind of sound engineer. 

Baffling indeed. And add the shocking fact, as shared by a kannada instrumentalist/composer on mayyam forum about 2 years ago, that Raaja allowed Uttam Singh, who has zero knowledge on sound engineering, to record, engineer and mix some raaja's albums - it gets even more baffling.

Even the relatively recent Malayalam album - Sooriyan - had recording issues. Remember the awesome song 'Vasantha Nilavil'. The volume of instruments (synth percussions) is ear-drum-shatteringly high.

Sticking to one (or a team of) sound engineer (who has equal interest and knowledge) really helps in transposing composer's vision, album after album. ARR has that. Vishal Bharadwaj has his own team. And not just these folks. Even R.D.Burman had his own standard team. And something tells me that Raaja too had his standard team, at least in 80s. There are many albums where the audio dynamics are consistent. Something went wrong in 90s. or rather since 90s. Because even now, I think the sound engineer varies from album to album. The inconsistency in team exists even now - although I do not have any major complaints with the output quality of albums in the last 7-8 years (exceptions exist, like Sooriyan).

kamalaakarsh .. you have been articulate here. Also, appreciate your patience inspite of our friends prodding , "how come you dont like this ?"  sort of comments :-)
Sound engineering is not supposed to be that high tech !!! Each instruments has a level (volume) and it is either placed left/right close to the singer or behind him/her. But with the advent of technology things have become complex. Same thing has happened to photography  - there are only two parameter - exposure time and aperture. Look at how people are beating Photoshop. Now you can create a photograph literally from bits and pieces. Music also has become like that.
I even heard IR who used to do photography with a Leica (!!) has given up when he saw this Photoshopping trend.
So take any comment on Uttam etc with a pinch of salt. The man is strong on fundamentals (also, I suspect when tested for IQ he will be very very high..Mensa category) . Others might be commercially successful for a variety of reasons. You only have to ask yourself who gives authentic, soul-stirring music for you. If the music does not touch your heart it is just some cool sound. Thats it.

Kiru,

I am aware that Raaja is strong on fundamentals (and glad that he is). And I agree that technology has become complex (making things easy for singers and artists). I am not expecting any state-of-art recording from Raaja. I am only expecting (or expected, in 90s) some consistency. The acoustic dynamics of a new album must be reasonably good (it need not beat the shit out of competitors) and at least better than past. Frankly, I love the sound quality of Mouna Raagam and Agni Nakshatram or rettai Vaal Kurivi better than some 90s albums. I wouldn't have cared even if the quality was static, at 80s level may be. Even in 90s, Guru, Kaalapani, Mahanadi etc had good recording quality. 
This is not about why or how others are more commercially successful. This is not about who gives authentic/soul stirring music. This is simply about the listening experience - a pleasure which I used to experience in many Raaja albums. But I again reiterate, things are more or less uniform in the last few years and I have no problems. I know some heardcore tech-audio junkies who still have some issues (and who feel that only NEPV is the recent Raaja album that had good sonic quality, technically) but I am not one of those. I thoroughly enjoyed the recording quality of most of his recent albums. 90s, as I continue to explore, remains as a blip... An inexplicable blip. It doesn't stop me from admiring the music. But like I said, there is that "if only...." thought that continues to hover, as I listen to some songs.

@kamalakaarsh - please understand I am neither contesting you nor defending IR. Sound engineering was bad in many 90s albums. Recent oru oorla though done in synth is mixed well. To be specific, I look for the levels of various instruments, clarity of sound and any effects which are detrimental to the enjoyment of the sound (for eg. too much echo on vocals was the bane for a long time). Basically, all I am trying to do is contribute to a better understanding of IR's sound engineering style. Please listen to thani kaattu raaja:raasave unna naan enni thaan. This song has been recorded in a completely different style, the style Rahman favors.
@CK and Suresh - what do you guys think about the SQ of Miles Davis: Kind of Blue ?

kiru wrote:@kamalakaarsh - please understand I am neither contesting you nor defending IR. Sound engineering was bad in many 90s albums. Recent oru oorla though done in synth is mixed well. To be specific, I look for the levels of various instruments, clarity of sound and any effects which are detrimental to the enjoyment of the sound (for eg. too much echo on vocals was the bane for a long time). Basically, all I am trying to do is contribute to a better understanding of IR's sound engineering style. Please listen to thani kaattu raaja:raasave unna naan enni thaan. This song has been recorded in a completely different style, the style Rahman favors.

ya.. I get you.

kiru wrote:@CK and Suresh - what do you guys think about the SQ of Miles Davis: Kind of Blue ?

I find that difficult to judge because I love the album and have never given a thought to the sound quality.  So I presume it must be good.

azhagaga solrar.. Raja..........

oru photographer ku kedacha oru view enaku kedaikalai.. carkulae irundhu edutha photos dhan ellam..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnx_pPSiN8E

Usha wrote:azhagaga solrar.. Raja..........

oru photographer ku kedacha oru view enaku kedaikalai.. carkulae irundhu edutha photos dhan ellam..........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnx_pPSiN8E

Maybe I misunderstood, probably he still does photography. But we know very clearly where he stands on digital post-processing (and this extends to sound engineering as well, is my suspicion).
The man is all about spontaneity.
I bought a Canon film SLR camera in '91. I did not buy a digital camera till a few years ago, when film processing vanished from the stores here in the US.
Actually, these days the resolution of digital cameras is more than that of films !!! Same goes for audio, we can record in very high quality.
IR had good acoustic recordings in digital format in 90s but as CK mentions "people got tired of good raw recordings" ( I guess he means 'acoustic' and/or 'as is')
I see people getting fascinated with Lays potato chips .. but it cannot beat the taste of the potato chips bought at corner sweat kadai !!
I guess people just wanted a different sound .. even in the US/Europe Santana and Eric Clapton are forced to use synth drum sounds !!!
(@CK - Kind of Blue is known for SQ .. an audiophile favorite)

Basically, all I am trying to do is contribute to a better understanding of IR's sound engineering style. Please listen to thani kaattu raaja:raasave unna naan enni thaan. This song has been recorded in a completely different style, the style Rahman favors.

shows even in 80s Raaja was remarkably inconsistent wrt sound, sample any of Mahendran movies save for Johnny to this,
that could only be budging constraints or simply didn't have time to bother with how it sounded.
on sound levels, blame it on record labels which releases them don't think MDs have that much say. recently
released raaja albums which had good visibility and released under a good label sounded alright.


kamalaakarsh, AR had his share of bad apples wrt sound, especially those with Tseries/Fivestar, remarkably HJ
seems to be mighty consistent with the sound, may be him not even bothering with live sound going completely synth
is giving him greater control over his sound.

Also note that Raaja did many songs for films without even advance payment (remember Adharvam for which he has not received one Re. ?).
Where to accommodate Gigabytes of sound engineering when you are operating at this dhaanaprabu level?
ThuraviyOda kaashaayathula kooda color contrast kaekkureengaleppa neengallaam (why analyse color contrast of the worn saffron robe of an ascetic?).
When the resources were available he has not hesitated to use superior mastering technology - be it here or in Bombay or UK.

jaiganesh wrote:Also note that Raaja did many songs for films without even advance payment (remember Adharvam for which he has not received one Re. ?).
Where to accommodate Gigabytes of sound engineering when you are operating at this dhaanaprabu level?
ThuraviyOda kaashaayathula kooda color contrast kaekkureengaleppa neengallaam (why analyse color contrast of the worn saffron robe of an ascetic?).
When the resources were available he has not hesitated to use superior mastering technology - be it here or in Bombay or UK.

Jai, right.. I have heard friends mention that IR was not happy with the recording quality of his albums himself. He used Rahman's studio for Sethu and was not happy.
One of the reasons, the budget was very high for TIS. Earlier, Srikanth (of tfmpage) used to mention that it might be difficult to do Raja's album like the way others do - there are too many instruments and it might be difficult to sync them.
So the only way is to do live mixing, with out any opportunity for elaborate post processing.
Others are just recording few tracks in a 'close miced' setup and mixing with lots of effects/processing for the clarity. But with IR too many things are going on in the song.
Just playing TIS, NEPV or mEgha in a high-end high-resolution system, will give the grandeur and sonic spectacle which might be difficult to find in other MDs' 'high clarity recordings'.

M

kiru wrote:

Usha wrote:a

IR had good acoustic recordings in digital format in 90s but as CK mentions "people got tired of good raw recordings" ( I guess he means 'acoustic'  and/or 'as is')

Actually I meant not just acoustic but the raw sound of an analog recording played back through analog media, viz vinyl, tape.

Disclaimer: This is from the point of view of a low end user. I have never used high end analog or digital equipment.  But at the low end, whether it is music or photography, there is always a slight distortion (of tone/light as applicable) in the analog medium.  

There is a certain tinge in analog photographs which wouldn't have been there in the actual light settings of the location.  Digital photos get closer to what the picture really looked like to the naked eye.  Likewise every note is slightly distorted in analog recordings which adds a warm fuzz to them.  I have often heard analog purists claim analog recordings are purer reproductions than digital.  I cannot comment on how they compare at the high end.  But at the low end, it is actually digital which reproduces more faithfully.  

However the element of distortion in analog adds a certain mystique to the recording.  Even on my tiny 2 in 1 (the only survivor from the tape era in our home) when I play Jaiye Aap Kahan, there is a kind of 'wet' layer enveloping the sound.  You don't get that in digital, but you do get greater detail and clarity at an affordable price.  Even in that Bhaskar Chandravarkar interview, you can see IR is excited about the CD medium.  People were tired of the limitations of analog at that time and jumped to digital at the earliest possible.  That they hark back to old times now means they have outgrown their fascination with 'clear' sound (incidentally, I heard complaints about the 'dense' sound of NEPV; people have forgotten that orchestral sounds are supposed to blend as they do in live concerts).  Now they need to work out how to 'paint'/'embellish' the recordings, instead of using digital just to do pitch correction.  It should not be very difficult because digital is a versatile medium but the original purpose for which it was so sought after in art has probably lost its relevance a bit now.

Bala and Raja again...hope it is true

Raja in a movie based on karagattam

For the maestro as a photographer, please read the article at http://www.thehindu.com/features/metroplus/the-other-angle/article5605792.ece

@CK - not sure how many people here would be interested in sound engineering so I will stop my boring drivel :-) . Please listen to iruvar from Rahman. He has added LP record 'surface noise' to the songs to give it a 'period' feel. He is a very sonics focussed guy.