Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 1

DM,

The interview was not all that praising for Raja. Here is what @mayilsenthil from twitter posted. See the sly way he tries to discredit Raja's musical philosophy. 

"Q: Do you also listen to musicians of younger generation, people like DSP, Vishal Shekar?

A: I do listen to. I always go to the purest form of music, like classical music, folk music. Not the ones which are remixed. Lot of people like Mithun, Pritam, Amit Trivedi. And in Tamil like, Imman, my nephew GVP, Yuvan, Anirudh. There're so many. Good to see the opportunities open up, not like those days which was like a fort, 'we're the only ones'

Q: Singers says 'Rahman lets you do whatever you want', is that true?

A: If I compose a melody and they're going to struggle with that, its wasting their time and my time. But if you know the flow what they're good at, then you adapt the style of composition to their style, its much easier. I know the composers who've done it before, they'd call a musician, give them stuff which they can't play, and they'd have a kind of sadistic happiness, 'see you couldn't play what I gave'. That's not my <coldn't get the word>. My <same word> is music has to flow, music has to happy, both the composer and the performer has to be happy. When I'm doing a song in a ragam, and I give it to Hariharan who could do anything with that ragam, you just give the basic stuff, and then stick on to the tune and they do some 'harkat' to that which is beautiful. And you start enjoying it. Thats the kind of thing. I don't say 'don't use that, that's not my composition.' I mean classical music is not like that, you can't change Bach's tune. <sings> You can't change that. It has to be like that. But when you're creating it, you're the composer, the spontaneity is the thing."

aah purindhu koNdEn aiyyA! Full intriyoo va link senjEnE ozhiya, full'aa padikkala, paakkala. IR portions a mattum paduchu, paathu post senjuttEn.

LOL So the inability becomes the benchmark. How sad! Then ideally you should put all the names who contributed to the composition as 'composers' instead of crediting just your name for the same. Humility at its best! Please be at-least be true to yourself, before commenting on a genius like Ilaiyaraja and his style of work, who has been doing everything by himself and doesn't steal other's brain for his credit. It is so irritating and painful to hear all this.

VS,
  sollitu pogatum. no prob..   IR music...  oru science madhiri. oru maths madhirii... maths and science... Rules ku utpattadhu...
karpanai ku ilai.

Histry.......... and Geography....  adhu  nijam. ana parka mudiyadhu. karpaniyil dhan nenachuka mudiyum........ 
andha madhiri sila per compositiion.........

adhanala....  science and Maths.. thappu kedaiyadhu.. andha teacher.. sonnadhai dhan kaekanam. padikanam. purinjukanam.
adhu elllam REAL........................

V_S saar, idha paathu, naan innum sirichukittu irukkEn: https://twitter.com/Sharankay/status/377451910447370240

Usha ji,
Wow! engEyO pOiteenga. Very nicely put, simple analogy, but what a depth in it. Thank you.

DM,
Thanks for the link. Might be possible , still those remarks are unnecessary, that too from him.

Well, taken in isolation, these comments could be seen as harmless, but of late, I notice a pattern of indirect jibes and vanjapugazhchis - 'picked up western music', 'sadistic happiness' (it is well known that only IR is strict when it comes to exactly reproducing the written score), 'violin-tabla music', statements and interviews suggesting he is is the person who introduced orchestral music in IFM (the Birmingham orchestra interview).

I don't know, I am still willing to give him the benefit of doubt, my concern is more about the maramandai, gullible Indian makkal who will happily swallow all this, which will lead to a general perception that these are 'facts'. Needless to say, the media will duly help the propaganda.

Quite agree with you Fring. Also, praising KJY on the Vijay awards stage, he did say that he personally has heard songs that sound bad and suddenly sound good when KJY sings it. Again, KJY has sung for innumerable composers in multiple languages that an IR fan taking offence would be considered silly. Fair enough. And that "bad songs" comment with this "sadistic happiness" comment may not have been directed at IR. We ought to give him the benefit there and he is of course entitled to his opinions and whatever he says.

But quick points on his musical philosophy:
Of course he is entitled to his philosophy and as a musician knowing much more music than us laymen, he is all the more in a position to justify it. But don't you think a great musician's real justice to skill is to reproduce whatever complex musical phrase a composer he plays/sings for composes? By suggesting that the composer had a sadistic pleasure lets us question the musician's artistry and allows us to prick holes in his musical philosophy.

Secondly, those comments are definitely not charitable. What humility are we talking about? A counter argument can be he was being frank. Doesn't sell as IR is also being very frank but is branded arrogant innit? More importantly, as @mayilsk asked on twitter, why should an artiste be humble? And why should we attribute it as a reason of him being a great artiste?

Ippo thaan antha NDTV interview paathen..

DM, for that KJY comment, we can give him the benefit of doubt (in that it may not have necessarily been a snide remark about IR). But this "sadistic pleasure" comment is clearly (atleast IMO) directed towards IR. The 3-4 years that he worked as a keyboard player, he primarily worked for IR, so logically, if I assume that he is inferring these 'qualities' in 'some' composers from his experience in working with them, all leads point to this 'composer' being IR.

Speaking of logic, I found no sense in his comments about 'classical music' (WCM) vs spontaneity (melody/tune improvisations) - that somehow you cannot innovate in WCM ("classical music is the same") - what about the thousands of pages of scores written by IR?

Aana onnu, neenga share panna that Vadivelu video summarizes this aptly - Rahmanum asinga patturukkaru IR kitta !  He now joins the list of people like bad-throat Srini, 92-Rediscovered Sujatha etc  (no wonder this gumbal sticks together)

DM, also your comment that he knows more music that us laymen - maybe he knows more that some of us, but I am sure there are many Raja fans who know much more about music than him!!

The saddest part is not that ARR keeps passing snide 'humble' remarks on IR, its that, even after 2 decades of being a 'composer' he simply does not comprehend WCM and IR's music - anyone who can understand and feel the power of IR's music will never ever deride him in this manner

I agree w.r.t to the logic in the WCM statement. That WCM vs spontaneity was weird and I couldn't make sense either.

Also reg his comment about complex tunes being a waste of time for both him and the singer - IMO, a good composer would know the abilities of his singers, and would choose the right singers for the right songs - if a complex composition demands a great singer, so be it - instead I see two things happening with ARR - 

1. His tunes are not complex (in terms of musical depth) to begin with - as he himself states in this interview, he seems to rely too much on a Nithyashree or a Hariharan contributing to the tune with their improvisations
2. His gang of singers (Benny, Sakthishree, Unni et al) are mostly incompetent, or average, at best

IMO he is trying to mask the two problems with that "waste of time" statement.

Sorry for the rant, I used to be an ARR fan too, a few years back, but off late I find his phony interviews (subjective I agree  ) and 'humble'isms too annoying!

Yes, he is entitled to his opinion. If he doesn't like IR's music, fine, no issues. But 'violin-tabla' statement, assuming credit for introduction of orchestral music etc is uncalled for.

Drunkenmunk wrote:But quick points on his musical philosophy:
Of course he is entitled to his philosophy and as a musician knowing much more music than us laymen, he is all the more in a position to justify it. But don't you think a great musician's real justice to skill is to reproduce whatever complex musical phrase a composer he plays/sings for composes? By suggesting that the composer had a sadistic pleasure lets us question the musician's artistry and allows us to prick holes in his musical philosophy.

Actually, I am not sure what he was trying to get at in the first place. Why is it ok for Bach to do it but not IR? Is it because it is film music? It doesn't make sense. If IR had approached scoring for films casually or on the merit of the movie, TFM would have gone bankrupt. Moreover, the difficult parts he composed to derive 'sadistic pleasure' are what have resulted in an SPB, Janaki and Chitra becoming the world class singers they are. If they weren't pushed to their limits, they might have languished and eventually been forgotten like so many other 80s, 90s and 00s HFM and TFM singers. Not to mention the musicians, many of whom have personally attested that playing for IR challenged them like playing for no one else did and made them better musicians (Also recall Guitar Prasanna's interview where he remarks on the quality of Chennai Vs Mumbai studio musicians and directly attributes it to IR). So that comment by ARR was in very poor taste, whether it was aimed at IR or not.

And the issue of humility is a no-brainer. To put in bluntly, raw genius intimidates most people. Mediocre people like to see a veneer of humility, no matter how fake , to be reassured and tell themselves "He is so down to earth!", " "He is just like any normal person". To equate humility to greatness, particularly in the arts is just naivete. Humility towards art -- yes. Humility towards all and sundry -- irrelevant.

vicks wrote:Also reg his comment about complex tunes being a waste of time for both him and the singer - IMO, a good composer would know the abilities of his singers, and would choose the right singers for the right songs - if a complex composition demands a great singer, so be it - instead I see two things happening with ARR - 

1. His tunes are not complex (in terms of musical depth) to begin with - as he himself states in this interview, he seems to rely too much on a Nithyashree or a Hariharan contributing to the tune with their improvisations
2. His gang of singers (Benny, Sakthishree, Unni et al) are mostly incompetent, or average, at best

IMO he is trying to mask the two problems with that "waste of time" statement.

Sorry for the rant, I used to be an ARR fan too, a few years back, but off late I find his phony interviews (subjective I agree  ) and 'humble'isms too annoying!

I wish the masses and media were aware that what they finally hear is a result of teamwork. Instead, most imply credit ARR. I know, I know, naive of me to have such expectations from the likes of ndtv.

fring,

A few weeks back there was an interview with Rahman in the 'The Hindu' to promote his latest India tour. Even in that he talks about humility and how having a musical ego is fine but having personal ego is wrong etc. Had no bearing on what the interview was for. It sounded more like a sly reference to you-know-who. 

For all the humility etc, when he got the Oscars, he didn't say a word about Gulzar (after all he gave the chant 'Jai Ho'). Nor did he talk about M.I.A. whose 'Paper Planes' was easily the best piece in that movie. He made a totally irrelevant (on that stage) statement of choosing love over hatred etc. In that time he could have thanked Gulzar, M.I.A and Sukhwinder Singh. No one bothers about that but keep quoting that statement !!! That's what good marketing is all about. Praise everyone when it is not very relevant but when some big honor comes, ensure the spotlight never leaves you. What's the use if come back and in so press meet praises Gulzar? 

As you say, expecting people to see through marketing/branding is too much of a stretch.

P_R (@dagalti) has a twitlonger

imagine if IR had said 'I am constrained by the musicians. It is frustrating how sometimes they can't play what I want. I push them but finally have to compromise and simplify'.

Can you imagine know how many would have pounced on that as an 'arrogant' statement?

That kind of sums up how public perception can get manipulated over a period of time - based on "image building" done by celebrities

More than anything, the biggest joke of the interview was Rahman trying to establish himself as a great singer

Anyway. let's forget that and see this video. Raja singing 'edayam oru kovil' briefly for Karur rasikas:

https://t.co/6vzOLtfCnm

Most average musicians are like ARR and they improvise to death till they think they have got the tune and orchestration right. I have no qualms about such gibberish...

However when AR says that Raja is from a village and he picked up English and western music, I am pissed. He has no business talking about that. He is not an expert in WCM to comment about Raja like that. Even the BSO or any Western philharmonic orchestra guys do not deride Raja like that. On the contrary, they adore and respect him. If Raja says that AR has done a couple of good folk numbers despite growing up in a city, it has a different connotation as Raja is truly an expert in folk and a senior in the industry.

Screw the humility, he is making statements like what some very successful companies do before they die. I am reminded of Sun Microsystems - "the network is the computer", or Kodak- "You press the button, we do the rest". Who ever thought such bombastic claims will go nowhere.

Marketing has its limits...

ravinat wrote:Most average musicians are like ARR and they improvise to death till they think they have got the tune and orchestration right. I have no qualms about such gibberish...

However when AR says that Raja is from a village and he picked up English and western music, I am pissed. He has no business talking about that. He is not an expert in WCM to comment about Raja like that. Even the BSO or any Western philharmonic orchestra guys do not deride Raja like that. On the contrary, they adore and respect him. If Raja says that AR has done a couple of good folk numbers despite growing up in a city, it has a different connotation as Raja is truly an expert in folk and a senior in the industry.

Screw the humility, he is making statements like what some very successful companies do before they die. I am reminded of Sun Microsystems - "the network is the computer", or Kodak- "You press the button, we do the rest". Who ever thought such bombastic claims will go nowhere.

Marketing has its limits...

Ravinat saar,

Absolutely! That statement is condescending on so many levels. Where is the need to bring in his English skills? Secondly, he definitely comes across as judging IR's English and WCM skills. The problem is that, thanks to marketing and media propaganda after Oscar and Grammies, ARR has been crowned the Mozart of Madras, WCM maestro etc. This naturally carries with it an implication of wcm mastery. The average person in the English media thinks ARR is the wcm maestro and IR was some villager who also composed good music in TFM before ARR's arrival. Amazing what marketing can achieve!!

Raaga_Suresh wrote:DM,

The interview was not all that praising for Raja. Here is what @mayilsenthil from twitter posted. See the sly way he tries to discredit Raja's musical philosophy. 

Q: Singers says 'Rahman lets you do whatever you want', is that true?

A: If I compose a melody and they're going to struggle with that, its wasting their time and my time. But if you know the flow what they're good at, then you adapt the style of composition to their style, its much easier. 

Heh, last I checked, Saans (Jab Tak Hai Jaan) was composed by ARR.  

Interesting that ARR sounds confused about whether he is more of a composer or more of a singer.  Even if he is not actually confused, he doesn't want to give a straight answer EVEN to that question.

Actually, if not for the IR reference, we won't be indulging in an ARR interview in this IR forum at all.

Unfortunately for him, his boasting of his own compositional style DID INCLUDE some snide remarks on IR's (or similar prior era composers') methodology, thus exposing some qualities of him that run contrary to the well-maintained "humble" "love-all" kind of image

Even with this kind of arrogant interview, media (like Indiaglitz) stupidly reports as how ARR appreciates IR's rise from country roots / how IR is a genius who will only be understood in the next century etc
:sigh:

That is the problem with naive public, who want to believe that their idol has ideal qualities. Not the problem of ARR who tries to be normal (and not acting) at least on occasions.

I've posted the Vijay TV award link in some other thread where too ARR took a dig at IR (or some other senior composers) who created "ketta tunes" for KJY to salvage.

It was a stage by  a major TV network to honor "life time achievement"  for an all-time-great-KJY, among the best voices of India ever! They appropriately chosen the biggest celebrity of the function, ARR, Oscar winner who had worked with KJY both as a musician and later as a MD (though in negligible quantity in the second role).

And it was only a speech for a couple of minutes and EVEN WITHIN THAT he could throw such violent remark on a HAPPY STAGE EVENT! (OK, give benefit of doubt to him that it was not about IR - but still it was about "ketta tunes" of some MDs that needed KJY to salvage, it was definitely not charitable to his family. During his speech, I could see even KJY getting shocked!)

Perhaps people who follow EACH & EVERY STAGE SHOW / INTERVIEW etc of ARR may be able to see many more such samples. I'm not one among them and hence cannot comment. However, these samples are enough to crack the mooda nambikkai of people

(BTW, SPB made a remark on SS4 that despite having an "unromantic" image, ARR is actually romantic He then finished as "romantic towards music, god" The point is, WYSInotWYG)

That's one thing I really like and appreciate about IR, that he is a lot more upfront.  He hasn't tried to cultivate an image and instead speaks his mind to a large extent.   I may not find myself able to agree with some of his statements but at least he doesn't try to play politically correct pussyfooting.   It is a shame that the public forget about his discipline, commitment and lack of bad habits (qualities that probably a lot of people in the film industry cannot claim to possess to the same extent) and only focus on what he said or didn't say.

I was just telling my father today that IR explained why Bach is his favourite WCM composer in a manner almost like explaining a mathematical equation.  Other counterpoints = 4 minutes for IR, invertible counterpoint = 1 hour, hence proved that Bach is the best.      It's a stark contrast to the vague tone that ARR seems to (intentionally?) strike in interviews.

That statement that ARR made on 'letting the singers form their own tune' is condescending at so many levels and reflective of the kind of poor quality singers we have in this generation. Now the stink is out, let him recline back into 'Ellaa pugazhum' mode, that is what suits the carefully cultivated image. Pity that his mentors (mani, kb) are not in a good shape to cover him up.

IR ai ipadi interview sedhavarku kodi Nandrigal.........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5_WuymlhMs&list=TL9_QzMPkj4C8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpgudIfVMAQ

ipadi eduthu solla vendiya alavil irukarae ... IR.. anga iruku avarudaiya humanity............... idhu dhan Humanity..........

Ravi's outrage is rightly placed. I saw DM's post yesterday, but work pressure prevented me from reacting to it. 
But as Vicks says - "The saddest part is not that ARR keeps passing snide 'humble' remarks on IR, its that, even after 2 decades of being a 'composer' he simply does not comprehend WCM and IR's music".  This is the real issue. ARR has been blessed with immense musical skills, instead of taking this further and further he is content on his formula for getting a commercial hit, which relies on his stylish tune making skills, coupled with additional input from singers and new artiste and arrangements borrowed from hit songs from America/Europe. 
This team work approach is ok and he has the recognition of people in the US/Europe as well by winning the Oscars. Stil happiness is the feeling that you get on your own assessment of your contribution. I do know that he is upset with IR about some remarks made by him while working for him. In that case, he should openly say, "I left him, because I did not like his personality or I dont agree with his style of music making etc". These kinds of backhanded compliments or "polite" remarks just to be politically correct is not morally right. But then again, he never says anything categorically, whether it is about his compositional style, borrowing loops or singers/artistes contribution to the total output. Sometimes even with fame and fortune you have to live with your ghosts !!!