Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 1

crimson king Sun Oct 13, 2013 3:59 pm

Actually, while they are chords in a manner of speaking, they are not serving the conventional function of chords, as used in guitar music in the West. In the West, the chords are written and then a melody is constructed around it. So, so many chord changes in one phrase may be considered appropriate only in jazz/prog. In that Thendralile line, the guitar is actually following wherever the melody gets to. That line of melody is killer for a singer to render, so many twists. It is amazing how IR breaks/disdains so many rules in a very seamless way.

fring151 Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:31 pm

crimson king wrote:Actually, while they are chords in a manner of speaking, they are not serving the conventional function of chords, as used in guitar music in the West. In the West, the chords are written and then a melody is constructed around it. So, so many chord changes in one phrase may be considered appropriate only in jazz/prog. In that Thendralile line, the guitar is actually following wherever the melody gets to. That line of melody is killer for a singer to render, so many twists. It is amazing how IR breaks/disdains so many rules in a very seamless way.

I am not sure that is necessarily always the case. Harmonizing a melody was the norm in wcm, as far as I know, and the sonata form for instance is based on the harmonic development and exploration of a theme (melody or melodies) - the interesting part is there are several ways to do this. WCM composers rarely ventured beyond major, minor and dominant chords and their inversions, but the textural possibilities offered by the different sections of an orchestra helps maintain the interest...

Of course there might be several bands who write the chords first and then lay the melody on top, but the opposite is equally valid as a chord progression IMO.

fring151 Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:25 pm

Lol stuff from Amudhavan. He sure knows how to tell a tale. Music world pOi thedinAram. Planet M pOnAram. Adhukku commentla namma Kaarigan varuthatha vera therivikkarAru - yEn ivlo siramapattenga, enna kaetta sollirupEnEnu. Also, he expresses surprise that there is not enough criticism of IR on the net compared to other famous personalities. LOL. If anything, there is a preponderance of IR haters and naysayers on the web these days.

Anyway, my reply is simple. I don't care about the symphony and I don't need that validation to acknowledge his genius or refer to him as maestro.

http://amudhavan.blogspot.com/

crimson king Mon Oct 14, 2013 3:24 am

That's why I said guitar music rather than Western music. Majority of scores written in WCM are for an orchestra and even when they aren't, pianos or strings take precedence over guitar. The idea of guitar as the predominant instrument is much more recent, relatively speaking. It took root via blues but even there, the dramatic developments in guitar tech facilitated this. So while I think it is quite likely that WCM composers would harmonise a melody, in blues and blues based music (which is what rock essentially is), writing chords is the norm. And by the way, when I use word like norm or rules, I don't mean it is THE right way. It is just the way that has been very widely embraced by rock musicians. When I tried to suggest a 'melody first' approach to my rock musician friend (who is also an IR fan), he couldn't get himself to accept such an approach because it was totally alien to him.

fring151 Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:51 am

I largely agree with what you say. I have not really probed into how rock bands make their music and you seem to be much more familiar with 70s rock/prog rock and the contemporary scene, so you are probably right.

crimson king Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:55 am

So what guitar music do you listen to (since you play the instrument) other than Ilayaraja? Classical guitarists like John Williams or jazz guys?

The thing is that say in a song like Kadhal Oviyam, the guitar parts are almost like riffs. So it seems as if he must have got the inspiration for that from rock/blues but in fusing it with an Indian melody, wrote far more complex chords. Likewise in Neethane...the way the guitar is handled stylistically is more like rock - aggressive and somewhat rhythmic, but the actual music is more complex. From what I have heard, he has a very wide exposure to music but there is not much awareness of Western per se in India and leave alone rock, nobody even asks him if he was thinking of Four Seasons when he came up with the prelude of Azhagu Aayiram.

fring151 Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:47 am

crimson king wrote:So what guitar music do you listen to (since you play the instrument) other than Ilayaraja? Classical guitarists like John Williams or jazz guys?

Good question. Actually, these days, I don't necessarily listen to a lot of pure "guitar music" as such. When it comes to jazz, I mostly prefer the sax/trumpet/piano combo to guitar or any other instrument. But I used to listen to a lot of rock and blues in college and David Gilmour is still my favourite guitarist Very Happy

Like you say SPB is da man (and he is), Gilmour is da man for me in rock guitar. He brings so much emotion in those slow solos and riffs which I don't think any any tapping or shredding by Van Halen and his ilk can ever come close to. I like Clapton, BB King and Mark Knopfler too (though don't really listen to them much anymore) and Joe Perry and Kurt Cobain when I was younger Embarassed

.

And as for John Williams, I enjoy playing classical guitar more than listening to others play it , unless it is something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNEnzNHTkd8

vicks Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:18 am

Came across this video today, At around 19:30, SPB talks about how the song Mayile Mayile is inspired from an S.D. Burman song, Gungunate... , though it is very difficult to spot it seems.. I didn't understand (talks about Graha Bedham), Carnatic music therinjavanga yaaravathu pAthutu explain panna nalla irukkum..

fring151 Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:29 am

Vicks,
I am going to make a semi-educated guess and let someone correct me if I am wrong. The fast flute prelude (inspired by Gunguna rahe) contains swaras common to both Hamsadhwani and the rAgam of gunguna rahe (at least the pallavi of the song). But from there on it totally diverges. Correct?

crimson king Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:36 pm

fring151 wrote: When it comes to jazz, I mostly prefer the sax/trumpet/piano combo to guitar or any other instrument. But I used to listen to a lot of rock and blues in college and David Gilmour is still my favourite guitarist Like you say SPB is da man (and he is), Gilmour is da man for me in rock guitar. He brings so much emotion in those slow solos and riffs which I don't think any any tapping or shredding by Van Halen and his ilk can ever come close to. I like Clapton, BB King and Mark Knopfler too (though don't really listen to them much anymore) and Joe Perry and Kurt Cobain when I was younger .

And as for John Williams, I enjoy playing classical guitar more than listening to others play it , unless it is something like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNEnzNHTkd8

So you are like Alan Holdsworth? Wink

I love Gilmour too. He would be next in my preferences to only Steve Hackett, who was doing the tap/shred part long before Eddie and can also play the most beautiful, soulful solos.

crimson king Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:38 pm

fring151 wrote:Vicks,
I am going to make a semi-educated guess and let someone correct me if I am wrong. The fast flute prelude (inspired by Gunguna rahe) contains swaras common to both Hamsadhwani and the rAgam of gunguna rahe (at least the pallavi of the song). But from there on it totally diverges. Correct?

Yes, the fast flute...in fact, there is a fast flute interjection after Kil rahi hai kali kali in the first iteration of the mukda IIRC. Maybe IR wanted to use that in a song of his own without ripping SDB.

app_engine Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:25 pm

Mahendran's book on Johny movie

அடடா, இந்தப்புத்தகம் எப்படியாவது படித்தாகணுமே !

அந்த படத்தின் ரசிகன் என்ற முறையில் அடுத்த கட்டமாக அதன் திரைக்கதை நூல் படித்தேன். வாவ்...சினிமா அனுபவத்துக்கு சற்றும் குறைவில்லாமல் வாசிப்பு அனுபவம் இருந்தது..

படத்தின் வெற்றிக்கு இளையராஜா இசை , ஸ்ரீதேவி நடிப்பு என பல காரணங்கள் இருந்தாலும், மிக முக்கியமான காரணம் பார்பர் ரஜினியின் கேரக்டரைசேஷன் தான். அந்த கேரக்டர் அடையும் வளர்சிதை மாற்றத்தை காட்ட எடுக்கப்பட்ட சிரத்தை , திரைக்கதை வடிவில் படிக்கையில் துல்லியமாக தெரிகிறது.
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இன்னொரு பாடல் எடுக்கப்பட்ட விதம் , அனைவருக்கும் பிடித்து பாராட்டினாலும் மகேந்திரனுக்கு அதில் திருப்தி இல்லையாம். வேறு மாதிரி எடுக்க திட்டமிட்டு இருந்தாராம். அது என்ன பாடல் என்பதை புத்தகத்தில் காண்க.

அதே போல , ஒரு லாஜிக் மீறல் தவறுதலாக இடம் பெற்று விட்டதாக இத்தனை ஆண்டுகள் கழித்து வருத்தம் தெரிவித்து இருக்கிறார். ஒரு குறிப்பிட காட்சியை சொல்லி, அதற்கு சமாதானங்கள் சொல்லலாம். ஆனால் அது தவறு..என் மேல்தான் தவறு என இத்தனை ஆண்டுகள் கழித்து வெளிப்படையாக சொல்லும் அவர் பெருந்தன்மை மலைக்க வைத்தது.. அது என்ன காட்சி என்பதையும் புத்தகத்தில் காண்க..

அந்த படத்தின் ஆடைகளை ஓவியர் ஜெ... ( ஜெயராஜ் ) வடிவமைத்தார் என்பதையும் பதிவு செய்து இருக்கிறார்..
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வழக்கமாக படம் எடுத்து முடித்த பின் பின்னணி இசை சேர்ப்பார்கள்..இந்த படத்தில் குறிப்பிட காட்சிக்க்கு முதலில் இசை அமைத்து விட்டு , அதற்கேற்ப படமாக்கினார்களாம்..

இப்படி பல சுவையான தகவல்கள்...ஒவ்வொரு சீனையும் செதுக்கிய நேர்த்தி என இந்த புத்தகம் ஒரு பொக்கிஷமாக திகழ்கிறது.

சினிமாவைப்பற்றி அறிந்து கொள்ள ஒரே ஒரு புத்தகம்தான் வாங்க முடியும் என்றால் இந்த புத்தகம் வாங்குங்கள்..

வெர்டிக்ட் - ஜானி--------லவ்லி

வெளியீடு - சாருப்ரபா பதிப்பகம்

app_engine Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:36 pm

கொந்தளிக்கிறார்கள் இளையராஜாவின் ரசிகர்கள்

யாருப்பா கொந்தளிச்சது?

கையத்தூக்குங்க!

lol!

app_engine Mon Oct 14, 2013 7:57 pm

அடடே, இந்த ரசிகர்கள் தொல்ல தாங்க முடியலப்பா

காரணங்களை யூகிக்க முடியாத நிலையில் அரசியல் சார்பற்று, உலகம் முழுதும் பரவியுள்ள ரசிகர்கள் இசைஞானி ராஜா சார் நடத்தப்பட்ட விதம் குறித்து தமிழக அரசுக்கு கடுமையான கண்டனத்தை தெரிவித்து கொள்கிறோம்

fring151 Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:38 am

Arunn Narasimhan, an IIT professor's series on Ilayaraja and the curse of the visual. I read it many years ago, will be a fun read for everyone, I am sure.

https://home.iitm.ac.in/arunn/ilaiyaraja-and-the-curse-of-the-visual-part-1.html

From part 2:

"There lies more than one potential and potent sociology (or even neuro-science) research problem in the contrast of tastes supposedly exhibited by the Tamil speaking populace.
Regardless of their education and social stature, they display humongous tolerance short of apathy and even relishing proclivity short of crassness to gaudy and illogical visuals called movies. Coexisting on the other hand is their nuanced, connoisseurship musical taste irrespective of, again, their education and social stature or even extent of musical knowledge."

"The musical genius of Ilaiyaraja is often mired by the associated movie visuals. Purist fan of his replace often with usually in the previous sentence, while 'fanatics' like me would replace often with always."

LOL

app_engine Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:05 pm

Hopefully, this is fake

Embarassed

டைரக்டர் ஆகிறார் இசைஞானி இளையராஜா!

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https://ilayaraja.forumms.net/viewtopic.forum?t=152

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