Re: Rajini and Kamal appreciation thread.

[plum]

Hard to argue with that. I am just not a great fan of non-Kamal-written Kamal films.(very few) (or tp put it other way, films without the unmistakable kamal stamp arent my cup of tea) (not even Balu Mahendrar ones)

Top Kamal films for me:

Hey Ram
Thevar Magan
Mahanadhi
Virumandi
MMKR
Saagara Sangamam

As you can see, Saagara Sangamam is the only one that makes the cut

So, when I process it like that, my mind automatically says, I want more of Kamal, the writer/director. So, naturally, a bias against the actor. Especially, since the actor-star is preventing the writer-director from doing his duty. (Actor/star illainA writer/directorukku ivLO mariyAdhai irukkumAngaRadhu vERA vishayam - atleast now, I think, him doing a film with others will be better received. May not be the case in 80s and 90s)



Yes, so many "Rajini can't do" movies in that list. But indha brahmin baashai, acccent ellAm unseleted. idhelLAm Aamir Khan fans ucha praiseA thanga starukku solvadhu.(coca cola ads la different accent paNNinadhukkE LOL)

But, overall, MR Radha, Rangarao, Amitji, Sivagumaar ellAm koNdu vandhA oputuhukavE mudiyAdh

[plum]

The only other director who I'd give as much importance in Tamil is Mahendran

[fring151]

But indha brahmin baashai, acccent ellAm unseleted. idhelLAm Aamir Khan fans ucha praiseA thanga starukku solvadhu.(coca cola ads la different accent paNNinadhukkE LOL)

YEn saar? Adhu periya vishayam thAn imo. I mean, not Brahmin baashai which is obviously ladoo for him to pull off, but Coimbatore bashai in Sathi leelavathi, ILangai bashai in thenali etc. Of course, yAravdhu coimbatore/iLangai-vaaLs thAn sollanum endha aLavukku adhu authentic'nu. But nA kAetta/kELvi patta varaikkum his portrayal of those characters is widely praised.

But, overall, MR Radha, Rangarao, Amitji, Sivagumaar ellAm koNdu vandhA oputuhukavE mudiyAdh

Frankly, ivangaLOda movies nA jAsti pAtthadE kidayAthu. So, well left. EnnOda agenda is wonly Kamal >> Rajni'ngardha establish panradhu   . (Rajni not in top 5 also stands, though, though there might be some difference of opinion on who should fill slot 5.).

I leave you with this comic gem from Panchathanthiram. Go to 4:15 to see how the drinking scene plays out and how he literally out-acts everyone else as a man in the mabbu state, right from the slurred speech to unfocused gaze, oLarals. ThaNNi adichittu oLarirkravangaLukku kanDippa idhu puriyum. "KAkka kAkka kanavEl kAkka is just  level". And then the embarrassed look on his face after. Gawd, genius only. Sorry for the loose usage of the word, but that scene just cracks me up.

[Drunkenmunk]

I mean, I don't even see such a large gap, (if at all) between Kamal and Sivaji.

Agree with everything that you said, err... except this. I see every role that Kamal did being done by Sivaji, with the exception of Sagara Sangamam. Even in Kamal's top films of the 90s and 00s, Sivaji would walk in and walk out if Kamal was the filmmaker and Sivaji was a contemporary actor with consummate ease. There is not a role I can think which Sivaji would not have been able to do. And there are a lot of roles of Sivaji which Kamal would have been ideal in, too. Bale Pandiya can have a Kamal and look just as convincing. But there are a number of Sivaji films which no one other than Sivaji could have done the justice he did. Karnan, Thiruvilayadal (1 person/God; Sivan. But as Sivan, the mercurial poet, fisherguy, woodseller, 4 characters in a single role, which is what Plum was saying. SVR/MRR played themselves in every character. But a Thiruvilayadal with a "hero" had 4 characters in 1 role. Only Sivaji fossible), Thiruvarutchelvar, Saraswathi Sabatham, Kappalottiya Thamizhan, Veerapandiya Kattabomman. I mean Kamal can fill Sivaji's shoes in the social roles (adhula kooda there is the small case of a Thillana Mohanambal). But history/mythology, only 1 guy and that is Sivaji. More than History/Mythology (which is outdated today and cannot be made as films), the roles that Sivaji gave life to in those historicals and mythologicals with his range can't be touched. IMHO, Kamal is the closest to Sivaji in Tamil films. But the gap between Sivaji and Kamal is significant. No offense to Kamal, who is a great actor. But Sivaji is just something else.

But if we get talking about Kamal the film personality, none like him. I mean writer (personally bigger fan of Kamal the writer than Kamal the hero. Kamal the writer imho is Tamil cinema's GOAT screen writer, followed closely by AP Nagarajan; just like Kannadasan, Sivaji and IR in their streams), director, hero, singer, lyricist, dancer with significant depth in knowledge when it comes to cinematography, editing, lighting. ashtAvadhAni fits him best. Only Satyajit Ray comes close in such multifaceted cinema talent (I mean just talent and not comparing their films).

[Bala (Karthik)]

The Sivaji Kamal daylight gap is a myth. 
Comedy and Sivaji? Apart from the Thillaana Mohanaambal mode? Sakthivel Kounder (it's not just about accent) ? Comedy na avvalo keval a? 

Saket Ram mudiyuma? Illa rage and violence - summa vasanam mattum illa, oru palpable menace and physical idhu konttu vara mudiyuma? Sari AS Sethupathy in lift madhiri varuma? Virumaandi aruva veechu scene la illaadha merattal, style, method vera evar kittayum saathiyamilla. 


I'll not go into figure ushaaring as that may be (unfairly) dismissed as trivial, invoking simbu and jai akarsh to ridicule

[Drunkenmunk]

The Sivaji Kamal daylight gap is a myth. 
Comedy and Sivaji? Apart from the Thillaana Mohanaambal mode? Sakthivel Kounder (it's not just about accent) ? Comedy na avvalo keval a? 

Saket Ram mudiyuma? Illa rage and violence - summa vasanam mattum illa, oru palpable menace and physical idhu konttu vara mudiyuma? Sari AS Sethupathy in lift madhiri varuma? Virumaandi aruva veechu scene la illaadha merattal, style, method vera evar kittayum saathiyamilla. 


I'll not go into figure ushaaring as that may be (unfairly) dismissed as trivial, invoking simbu and jai akarsh to ridicule

Figure ushAring no one to beat Kamal on screen but adhukku oru padi keezha pOi porukki/neechanA Sivaji naducha Thirumbi Paar, Andha Naal and the subtlety he gave Andha Naal 2 yrs into his career is untouchable nu solluvEn. Comedy Bale Pandiya, Woodseller in Thiruvilayadal are strong cases and I agree Kamal has been part of better comedy films which gave him scope to experiment with the comedy (credit to him, he was writer for most and his cinema sense >>> Sivaji's) but IMO, it is not beyond Sivaji in acting. Kamal senja mAri comedy irukkAdhu. But idhE script Sivaji kaila pOnA avar style la varum and I am confident it would be just as enjoyable. Comedy nA kevalam nu yAru sonnA? As it is, Kamal's comedy films are milestones in Indian film history in comedy. That Sivaji did not get such scripts in his peak would not mean it would be beyond him. AS Sethupathy lift Sivaji ku dhArALamA varum (Uyarndha Manidhan, Thangappadhakkam, Gauravam. That midikku, style. Sivaji style > Rajni style, Sivaji style > Kamal style. Sorry). Gauravathula Pandari Bai'ya meRattara scene with the case kattukaL, pipe in mouth, mouthing "cat on the wall" adha vida style ku definition'e vENdAm. Yaar Andha Nilavu. Most stylishly smoked cigarette in Indian films. Virumaandi, Hey Ram Kamal mAri illEnAlum Sivaji than bANi la Kamal senjadhu edhaiyum seyyAma irundhurukka mudiyAdhu. Yes, romancing Rani or a Vasundhara convincingly Sivaji will lose to Kamal (Sivaji's sizzling lust in Ethanai Azhagu, Sivagamiyin Selvan, tells me he is no mug in lust scenes but making love Kamal aduchukka aaL illa dhAn) and adhellAm only Kamal possible. But role intensity with the right body language under a director like Kamal? Most definitely Sivaji possible. Of course this is hypothetical but then, I feel Sivaji would have even aced Avvai Shanmugi (he was a famous sree part player in dramas). I agree, he does not have Kamal's overall intelligence and Kamal's intelligence would never let him be part of a dud like Justice Gopinath, Naan Vaazha Vaippen, Pattakathi Bairavan or a Mridanga Chakravarthy as a senior actor. But Sivaji was a director's actor and the best at that. Sivaji the actor and Kamal the actor ke sizable gap nu solrEnnA I feel Sivaji and others in Tamil massive mile neeLa gap.

[Drunkenmunk]

My bottomline is, Kamal's greatest acting feats can be matched by Sivaji, with all massive due respect to Kamal because his greatest feats as actor is a great peak inaccessible for other mortals. But Sivaji can scale those peaks if he had a director like Kamal. The director and overall complete film personality in Kamal hence >>> any mortal in Indian cinema barring Ray. But Sivaji's peaks as actor inaccessible for anyone else.

[Wizzy]

There are Kamal roles that Rajini could have easily pulled off- Velu Nayagan for instance. A Godfather reprise, with Rajini in the lead, and Kamal in the director's chair in the 80s was the need of the hour. It didn't happen. "ungaLa thAnE nambaNum" could well work with Rajini as well

too much, RK as banian clad yeng Velu? would have been unintentionally funny.
RK in DM interval block ditto (sample that for screen presence)

There are Kamal roles Rajni cant pull off - Salangai oli for one. Moondram Pirai for another.

they are simply too many. for instance entire RKFI palette strictly only KH

There are Rajni roles Kamal cant pull off - MM, and the whole masala genre(Kamal's intelligence comes in the way of being a convincing Annamalai, Baasha or even a Padikkadhavan). Nerrikann - no way I am buying Kamal as Chakravarthy.

Chakravarthy was over the top performance which KH would have sleep walked. Annamalai not in
the 90s but in the 80s..roles which RK had edge were Jonny/MM/Nallavannku Nallavan/Engeyo Ketta Kural/Thalapathi

Kamal the actor is being underrated whilst Kamal the writer is getting overrated here.
ennum GOAT screenwriter ellam illai, still has to write for other actors which will be much sterner test without him in
the screen to fill in the blanks.
Kamal's artistic intelligence being a hindrance :headscratch: after Saket he did Pks/Vasool/Viru/Avinash

The Sivaji Kamal daylight gap is a myth.

nope :runsaway:

[Drunkenmunk]

Another 2 pence. Kamal as an actor has role models like Al Pacino, Bob De Niro, Dustin Hoffman, Sivaji, Marlon Brando, Dilip Kumar (  ), ippidi pala. Nothing wrong at all. Healthy only. Nagesh was known as India's Jerry Lewis. But Sivaji ku appidi role models nu yArayum solla mudiyAdh. He is Sivaji and we will only see the character or an emotion being done justice to, from Sivaji. adhAn Sivaji.

[sagi]

Rajini is actually a little overrated in the last 2-3 pages, but அதப் பத்தி நமக்கென்ன.   
 
Kamal's comedy is being overrated. I mean I can live with someone saying he is THE best but projecting there is daylight between him and others is 3 much. Rajini was on par w.r.to comic timing when you strictly take the former's 80s films. Actually if you ask me, Rajini's USP in the 80s was his comedy. Films like padikkAthavan, guru sishyan, dharmaththin thalaivan, oor kaavalan, thambikkenthavooru etc. will stand testimony to this fact.
 
Daylight between MMKR/SL performances / comedy and others, granted. Actually SL is the only film which is able to give me the same volume of laughs every single time, got a little bored of MMKR strictly w.r.to the comedy, not to take away the brilliant screenplay and the acting. But all other Kamal-Crazy films have this நாடகத்தன்மை. Stage saba aesthetics. I know we have discussed about this many times in mayyam. I also want to highlight the comedy in non-crazy films. I mean I respect people who can laugh to those, but ambu and express, சுத்தமா சிப்பே வரலையே.. 
 
And GOAT writer, may be. The last few films were well below average, இத நான் சொன்னா கமல் ஹேட்டர்ம்பீங்க, but its OK.

[crimson king]

I can kind of relate to where the people who think there's not much gap between RK and Kamal come from (though I completely disagree).  It's like the Kishore-Rafi debate.  Within his comfort zone, Kishore exudes so much confidence and authority that some people might feel he is absolutely the better singer than Rafi, who has to induce so many inflections, sangidhis and all to attain the finished product.  If there is a role that fits Rajni to the tee, he will hit it out of the park.  Kamal hasn't really done that with few exceptions like maybe Appu Raja.  Most of his roles are labours of love.  

DM:  Yep, Sivaji was the pioneer, he set the standards.  For similar reasons, I would rate Amitji (well) above Rajini.  The acting of Sivaji, Dileep, Amitji or Sanjeev Kumar is a part of the vocabulary of later actors, it's an influence.  I can't yet say that for Rajini..if at all, maybe he has influenced more in an undesirable way like Captain's action hero phase or the Thala/Ilayam nonsense.  Even Kamal is nowhere as influential as Sivaji (yet) though I felt at times that Surya was imitating him.

[fring151]

My bottomline is, Kamal's greatest acting feats can be matched by Sivaji, with all massive due respect to Kamal because his greatest feats as actor is a great peak inaccessible for other mortals. But Sivaji can scale those peaks if he had a director like Kamal. The director and overall complete film personality in Kamal hence >>> any mortal in Indian cinema barring Ray. But Sivaji's peaks as actor inaccessible for anyone else.

Comedyla Sivaji saab simply no match for Kamalji. Like B(K) said, Sakthivel Gounder mAdhiri roles untouchable. Also the badassitude, raw brutaity in Devar magan/Virumandi/ALavanthAn, physical transformations (yes, that is a huge bonus for me, a reason why I rate De Niro higher than Al/Jack/Hoff etc - Raging bull, OUATIA, Cape Fear) in Apoorva sagodharargal/Nayagan/ALvandhAn. Other roles, yes I can imagine Sivaji acing equally.

[Bala (Karthik)]

Oh yeah, how did I forget Alavandhaan Nandu. And Guna (the very best)!!!  Are you kidding me?? Ennayya aachu ungalukkellaam
SR climax, Swathi Muchyam, Guna, AV - not the same. Method

[Bala (Karthik)]

DM 
Comedy - it's not just about the luxury of author backed roles. Sakthivel Kounder laam execution dhaan. Endha director venaa vechukkattum, Sivaji no chance. Sivaji comedy template dhaan vandhurukkum

[plum]

In my experience, if Kamal the writer hadnt thalaieduthufied, I'd have been still in the other camp. I have recounted several times before.
Nayagan is usually quoted by mani groupies as Kamal's turning point and the moment he realised he can scale artistic heights- dastards, a falser word was never spoken!
a
It was Apoorva SagodharargaL. Even before Nayagan, he had done Moondram, Saagara, Rajaparvai etc, the last one being a personal passion that burned his savings. But Nayagan left me cold.(even then)

And understand that I am just recounting in retrospect - i didn thave an idea of why/how I was reacting like that then.

It was AS that turned the corner for me as I got the first feeling of "oh ivuru kitta irukkaRadhu nammAL kitta illa pOlayE" and with MMKR/DM, I flipped over.
When I look back, what is the USP of all these? Kamal, the writer/director/asst director/soothradhari.

Obviously, I didnt like these because it was Kamal written. I am just realising that it was the behind the camera Kamal who brought me to in front of the camera Kamal

Therefore, in my personal biased vew, it will always be these Kamal powered movies that will occupy pride of place.

[plum]

Bala - I am not arguing with you. adhukkAna thembum balamum manamum ippO illa.

[Bala (Karthik)]

Sorry for posting in installments. 
Wish to highlight another piece (fring had mentioned the drunk scene in PT) - Virumaandi drinking scene with Kothaalan and Koottaali, followed by the scene with Abhiraami. That. Rounds off a knockout performance (ego, lust, pammal) with that "unsure" placing of the sarakku glass + the unsure sweep of his line of sight. Again, method. Sorry, I can't see Sivaji topping that (haven't seen much of Lalettan but I may concede to a lal fan on this)

[Drunkenmunk]

Drunk scene, ego lust go nowhere beyond Navarathri. Scene of the movie with Savithri caught in a brothel and Sivaji in a drunken, lustful rage, eating an apple and telling his story (post the iravinil Attam song). His "manjaL kugumathOda unga madilaiyE uyira vutturrEn <apple munch> nga" is effing terrific, as though saying he is that distant from what he is mouthing and what he really feels about his wife. He places that distance through a frikking apple bite (idhukku mEla enna method vENum ). Missing the presence of P_R here   Sivaji adha ellAm seivAr. I can understand the reverence for Lal Ettan but even Lal Ettan is no match for Sivaji here. One thing I will grant is comedy. Kamal is unbeatable. But even in Navarathri, Sivaji has done a comedy portion with Nagesh where he beats Nagesh hands down (idhellAm Nagesh fans opthukka mAttAnga but will talk through their hats about Nagesh being better than Sivaji at Sivaji's game. Dei enga aaL has beaten unga aaL at unga aaL's own game da buggezhs) and is hilarious. Go nowhere outside Navarathri to see Sivaji's full range. He doesn't service any of the 9 characters but simply services the 9 emotions. Kamal idha dhaan Thevar Magan'laye "ellAm pazhaya murukku thEn" nu Sivaji yaye solla vechchAr. pudhusA onnum Kamal'o Bharathan'o koNdu varala DM la and I'm sure no one here disputes it. But yes, comedy la full range'a explore senjadhu Kamal dhaan. I was clutching at straws with Bale Pandiya and woodseller. Sakthivel Gounder; point taken. But anything else, Sivaji ku supreme court defense over everyone else. And yes, Kamal is the next best to Sivaji that I've seen in Tamil screens.

Navarathri scene (sorry for the digression but do notice the sheer sammandhamE illAdha voice modulation and the gravity of the situation that the voice is describing. He doesn't care a hoot for his wife and lets us know through a drunk stupor):

[groucho070]

Bravo Drunkenmonk, bravo. Your post brought me out of my semi-coma state. Kamal the current best-nu remba pErukku theriyin and nothing to argue there. But I feel Rajini has been slighted as just another masala hero and that is why I was compelled to write a light-hearted reviews where I teased the films but revered Rajini's performance. The man could have been a ball of fire racing with Kamal if not for his (film is 90% entertainment 10% art proclamation he made in a movie mag interview back in the 80s). Rajini is that Little Engine That Could...unfortunately time is not at his side now, as is his health, demands by fan(atics). But know who knows, he might just think "fuck with commercial shit, gimme Bala's number".

Good discussion guys. Keep it going...

[V_S]

vaangO sir. So glad to see you again  We miss you so much. How come the initiator of our forum can be absent for so long? As we always understand, Nadigar Thilagam is the key to your return
Well done DM for bringing him back  

[groucho070]

Thanks V_S, ithellAm unngala mathiriyAna hardworking posters-ukku thAnE. Will try to come in more often. I do read my fav threads regularly though. Absolutely grateful  

[plum]

Wow, that's grouch. Can I believe my eyes? vAngo vAngo..if this is what it took to bring you, munnAdiyE Nerd, nAnu, Bala ellAm uruNdu porandu saNdai potturuppOmE!

come on tiger, Rajini side is weak, nInga dhAn pEsaNum

[app_engine]

Plum,
Initially I thought, like, accepting AB's downgrade to old man roles because of failures as youththu will amount to approval of hindiwAlA's taste judgement. That they cannot tolerate nonsense.

And that those NI audience are so discerning (unlike the idiotic TN-ers who foolishly accept a 60+ fellow as youththu) and cannot stand the AB as "still-young-only" but ditched him instead, thus forcing him to make a living out of playing correct age.

Well, the northie media has such a low opinion about southie taste is obvious (judging from their Rajinikanth jokes, making fun of TN / AP getting movie star CMs etc).

However, taking a closer look at the issue, I had to change my initial thought to the following:

-TF audience have the capability to look at the character as a character (and not necessarily confuse with the actual guy playing it). That way, for them, Padayappa is a screen character and has nothing to do with the vazhukkaiththalai, old Rajinikanth that they see on public meetings / newspapers / youtubes & TV shows. They are sophisticated enough to watch art as pure art

-OTOH, northie audience cannot separate the on-screen character from the guy who plays it and totally confuse themselves. Limitations on "art-appreciation" / "separating-real-from-reel"

(Now, don't connect the above conclusions with pAlAbishEkam, fan clubs etc for Kamal / Rajini / Ajith / Vijay in TN. That's a different story)

[crimson king]

Don't give Northies so much credit. They are waxing about Salman Khan right now and he romances girls half his age on screen.  Most Salman hits these days are remakes of Tamil/Telugu films and Prabhudeva is the hottest director, commercially, across the three industries, so much for Northie snobbery.  It is only I personally who have a problem with THAT extent of suspension of disbelief.  I am not indiscriminately opposed to the idea of say a septuagenarian bashing up 10 people, PROVIDED the film supplies an inner logic that is supposed to make it plausible.  Say your Batman/Superman films where superhuman abilities are already attributed to the protagonist.  There's nothing like that in a Padayappa or Baasha.  We are supposed to accept it just because it's Superstar (at least Endhiran was a lot better that way because for the most part the scientist Rajini didn't display any particularly implausible physical strength).  If some people do not have a problem with that, that's fine but I don't think my objections to that have anything to do with my imagination or comprehension.  I expect a little more integrity in script writing and screenplay, that's all.  I have watched lots of films anyway, so I don't have to settle for less for entertainment's sake anymore.

[fring151]

I am not indiscriminately opposed to the idea of say a septuagenarian bashing up 10 people, PROVIDED the film supplies an inner logic that is supposed to make it plausible.  Say your Batman/Superman films where superhuman abilities are already attributed to the protagonist.  There's nothing like that in a Padayappa or Baasha.  We are supposed to accept it just because it's Superstar (at least Endhiran was a lot better that way because for the most part the scientist Rajini didn't display any particularly implausible physical strength). 

In other words, an expectation of internal consistency within a universe which operates within a certain well defined axiomatic framework. An elementary enough mathematical argument which unfortunately eludes most Indians.

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