Re: Rajini and Kamal appreciation thread.

[Bala (Karthik)]

1. Strongly disagree with "Rajini outperformed Kamal in AA". 
2. I also don't buy this Rajini *sacrificed* his acting to take this route. He was good in his comfort zone and that's it. It's not that he has vast untapped potential that nobody has utilized. This theory has been peddled for too long (adhavadhu the message being "kamal is lucky Rajini chose not to act" )

[Bala (Karthik)]

Whaaaattt!! Rajni was bestowed Padma Bhushan in 2000 and is now NDTV's greatest living Indian? What a joke this country is. To clarify, I don't dislike Rajni at all. I don't think he is as bad an actor as some make him out to be, but at the same time I wouldn't even rank him among the top 5 best actors TN has produced. Plus, a joke is a joke.

I like I respect the true fans. It is this yuppie gumbal which has come over post Sivaji which has no clue of what he or his cinema sense is that gets my goat.

Absolutely

[Drunkenmunk]

1. Strongly disagree with "Rajini outperformed Kamal in AA". 
2. I also don't buy this Rajini *sacrificed* his acting to take this route. He was good in his comfort zone and that's it. It's not that he has vast untapped potential that nobody has utilized. This theory has been peddled for too long (adhavadhu the message being "kamal is lucky Rajini chose not to act" )

1. Kamal underplayed very well. Personally liked Rajni better in their combination scenes. Possible to argue that Rajni had a more interesting role written for him to which he did justice to, which is not Kamal's fault. I agree Rajni was not a tour de force that blew Kamal away in AA because Kamal was on the money too. Should've been clearer there.

2. Agree. Sacrificed was probably a wrong word. He stuck to his comfort zone and didn't revisit his awesomeness in Kali, Avargal, Thappu Thaalangal, Aval Appadithaan. I too don't agree that Kamal *got* lucky because Rajni chose not to compete in the same path.

[crimson king]

I would not rank Rajini among top 5 actors of TN either.  Ahead of him, well, there's Kamal, also Sivaji Ganesan, M R Radha, Sivakumar and Nazar. He is second only to MGR among Tamil filmstars in evoking mass hysteria, yes, but acting wise he has limitations.  To his credit, he does very well within those limitations but the lack of modulation in pitch or pacing in dialogue delivery stands out very quickly.  Even in the films he acted well in like Aval Appadithan or Arulinthu Aruvathu Varai, he couldn't really overcome that.  But he could make the audience overlook that with his charisma. Purely for acting chops, I would not rate even Kamal above a Nazar who has done villainous and comedy roles brilliantly.  In very few roles does Kamal look natural, as if he's living the part.  He's always Kamal acting out a role for the audience to admire and enjoy. But Kamal puts in a lot of effort and experiments time and time again and by doing so has straddled a wide variety of roles. So he's an automatic choice in the top 5 simply for his audacity.

[sagi]

*Coming out of my 'Rajini-fan-retirement for a little bit'

Sivakumar? Bwahahaha!! Are you kidding me? And the one noted M R Radha? Agree that he was the best in his comfort zone but nothing great otherwise. And how many in Nasser's count? 15? 20? Rajini will have as much. And Rajini's mass performances are severely underrated. I am not going to give examples but just watch a Vijay or an Ajith doing the same roles in their films.

[crimson king]

I am not surprised by that reaction.  Yes, we are conditioned to venerate the STARS and disdain actors.  But as far as acting, all those actors I mentioned are a lot more versatile than Rajini.  I can also add myself what he has that Sivakumar or Nazar never had - charisma.  Which is exactly what Tom Cruise has that Gary Oldman doesn't.  Doesn't make Cruise a better actor than Oldman.  Charisma is what is desirable in superstar/mass hero roles, but there's much more to cinema than just that.  The question was are there really 5 better actors in TF than Rajini and I say yes.  As a STAR, I already said he is second only to MGR.  Even Nazar's villainous roles have different shades depending on the film - Walter Vetrivel/Magalir Mattum/Anbe Sivam.  Rajini's pitch is the same no matter he is playing hero or anti hero, superstar or serious.

[Drunkenmunk]

Sivaji, Kamal selected. Nasser open to debate, interesting points can support both sides. MR Radha not very sure whether to place him because I feel while he was excellent within his limitations, he never experimented out of his style or zone. Sivakumar unselected. Guy was a limited actor, has not touched Rajni's range of the late 70s-1980 and had one singular voice modulation, "enna yen paaaaa (in a wavy voice) sOdhikkara?" fitted to every context and situation. I would place Nagesh as a very worthy number 3 after Sivaji and Kamal.

[crimson king]

Nagesh also, yes.  I think there are comfortably more than 5 actors with better acting ability than Rajini anyway.  I am just trying to toss a few names.  Frankly, I find character actors like even Santhana Bharathi (who also acted in Anbe Sivam) more interesting than the stars.  At least they are free to surrender to their roles, while the stars feel obliged to more or less play themselves. I am the kind of guy who would much rather watch Manoj Bajpai or Nawazuddin Siddiqui than the k...k...k...Khans.  So maybe I shouldn't participate in a Rajini-Kamal thread in the first place!

[fring151]

Whaaaattt!! Rajni was bestowed Padma Bhushan in 2000 and is now NDTV's greatest living Indian? What a joke this country is. To clarify, I don't dislike Rajni at all. I don't think he is as bad an actor as some make him out to be, but at the same time I wouldn't even rank him among the top 5 best actors TN has produced. Plus, a joke is a joke.

curious, who are those top 5 actors?

Kamal, Sivaji, Nasser, Nagesh definitely in. Permute them any which way you want to arrive at the precise ordering of your choice. Fifth is a tough one, admittedly. I am tempted to pick Vikram for the sheer acting effort he puts into his roles, however crappy them may be. I haven't seen a Rajni performance anywhere close to the intensity of Vikram in a Sethu or Pithamagan.

Speaking of flashes of brilliance,  Pasupathy's acting in Virumaandi ranks in my books as one of the finest performances by any Tamil actor in recent memory (read last 10-15 years). Heck, even Napoleon was brilliant in the movie. Nasser in Kuruthi punal was a tour-de-force - that kind of quiet smouldering intensity is rarely seen in Kolly villains. I can't think of one movie *I have seen* (which includes a good number of 80s, all of 90s, and some of 00s) where Rajni has demonstrated comparable acting prowess. I agree with CK that his dialogue delivery and modulation leave a lot to be desired. In addition, I also feel his capacity for understatement is limited.

Anyway, my main issue is with the national honours. Do they select people just because they are famous and were successful and have a great public image (rhetorical - of course, that's how they do!), or on the basis of their contribution to the art - how good they really are at what they do, whether they helped expand or redefine the boundaries of their field etc (I can only dream).

[crimson king]

Whaaaattt!! Rajni was bestowed Padma Bhushan in 2000 and is now NDTV's greatest living Indian? What a joke this country is. To clarify, I don't dislike Rajni at all. I don't think he is as bad an actor as some make him out to be, but at the same time I wouldn't even rank him among the top 5 best actors TN has produced. Plus, a joke is a joke.

curious, who are those top 5 actors?

Kamal, Sivaji, Nasser, Nagesh definitely in. Permute them any which way you want to arrive at the precise ordering of your choice. Fifth is a tough one, admittedly. I am tempted to pick Vikram for the sheer acting effort he puts into his roles, however crappy them may be. I haven't seen a Rajni performance anywhere close to the intensity of Vikram in a Sethu or Pithamagan.

Speaking of flashes of brilliance,  Pasupathy's acting in Virumaandi ranks in my books as one of the finest performances by any Tamil actor in recent memory (read last 10-15 years). Heck, even Napoleon was brilliant in the movie. Nasser in Kuruthi punal was a tour-de-force - that kind of quiet smouldering intensity is rarely seen in Kolly villains. I can't think of one movie *I have seen* (which includes a good number of 80s, all of 90s, and some of 00s) where Rajni has demonstrated comparable acting prowess. I agree with CK that his dialogue delivery and modulation leave a lot to be desired. In addition, I also feel his capacity for understatement is limited.

Anyway, my main issue is with the national honours. Do they select people just because they are famous and were successful and have a great public image (rhetorical - of course, that's how they do!), or on the basis of their contribution to the art - how good they really are at what they do, whether they helped expand or redefine the boundaries of their field etc (I can only dream).

Precisely why I voted Sivakumar above Rajini.  I cannot imagine Rajini managing a complex role like Sindhu Bhairavi.  He has to be given space to reel off loaded oneliners one way or the other, otherwise he is uncomfortable.

I also liked Pasupathy in Virumaandi.  He was great in Dhool too, though the film was nothing special.  Haven't seen him in any other film IIRC.

Lastly, the fact that not a single composer has been conferred Bharat Ratna while Lata Mangeshkar was shows what these awards are.  Fame, yes.  Also influence in Delhi. Only contribution that counts is contribution to the kitty of politicians.

[sagi]

If sangeetha medaiyai saakkadai aaakap pOriyaa is an example for voice modulation, then certainly Rajini does not have it. He has only acted in films that demand absolutely nothing, always gives him ample space and about 5 minutes to mouth a 2 line dialogue like in mullum malarum, thappu thaalangal, thalapathi, avargal, bhuvana oru kelvikkuri, johnny, chilakamma cheppindi (opportunity for a note to note comparison with Kamal). And obviously in all those films Sivakumar would have done infinitely better. 

நினைச்சுப் பாக்கவே நாராசமா இருக்கே..   One just has to watch just one scene, that they both acted together from Bhuvana oru ?.

Hmmm, the whole world, has made a joker out of Rajini, thanks to the media, mainly the NI kind and its no wonder that people are just not ready go beyond the surface when it comes to him.

[crimson king]

It is Rajini himself who has made a joker out of his reputation.  Look at him, the way he looks in public appearances.  Now why doesn't he have the guts to turn up like that in his films?  Why is he so scared to act his age?  Amitabh Bachchan was also a huge star in the 80s, but he finally (after several turkeys like Mrityudatta, no doubt) decided to age gracefully instead of giving more pain to his fans. This superstar business is just a mask that not only Rajni wants to wear, even his fans won't let him discard.  Kamal, sorry to say, is fast slipping down that road as well.  The great actor of Anbe Sivam has not taken much time to morph into the action entertainer of Vishwaroopam performing totally realistic feats.  I used to be a huge Rajini fan, contrary to the convenient pigeonhole in which you are now trying to slot me, but Padayappa was the last straw.  I got totally fed up with him after that.  Do you seriously think I have not watched MM, Aval Appadithan, Thalapathi?  Please don't assume things.  I have watched all those films and I seriously don't see anything drastically different in his acting in any of those films.  Rather, the roles are tailored to suit his 'style'.

[app_engine]

Congrats Kamal for the well-deserved recognition!
(though it's very late)

[sagi]

Mullum malarum tailor made to suit his style? First time I am hearing this. Mullum malarum and Johny made what he is now, not the other way around. There are plenty of films sans any heroism, but I am going to stop here since we seem to be so far apart in our opinions and this will end up a futile exercise.

Also, people can have opinions and judgements, but if one says Sivakumar is better than Rajinikanth I am certainly entitled to my assumptions. We are talking about Sivakumar, Gawd.

Two excellent Raaja songs for you   

[app_engine]

Two excellent Raaja songs for you   

[jaiganesh]

Whaaaattt!! Rajni was bestowed Padma Bhushan in 2000 and is now NDTV's greatest living Indian? What a joke this country is. To clarify, I don't dislike Rajni at all. I don't think he is as bad an actor as some make him out to be, but at the same time I wouldn't even rank him among the top 5 best actors TN has produced. Plus, a joke is a joke.

curious, who are those top 5 actors?

Kamal, Sivaji, Nasser, Nagesh definitely in. Permute them any which way you want to arrive at the precise ordering of your choice. Fifth is a tough one, admittedly. I am tempted to pick Vikram for the sheer acting effort he puts into his roles, however crappy them may be. I haven't seen a Rajni performance anywhere close to the intensity of Vikram in a Sethu or Pithamagan.

Speaking of flashes of brilliance,  Pasupathy's acting in Virumaandi ranks in my books as one of the finest performances by any Tamil actor in recent memory (read last 10-15 years). Heck, even Napoleon was brilliant in the movie. Nasser in Kuruthi punal was a tour-de-force - that kind of quiet smouldering intensity is rarely seen in Kolly villains. I can't think of one movie *I have seen* (which includes a good number of 80s, all of 90s, and some of 00s) where Rajni has demonstrated comparable acting prowess. I agree with CK that his dialogue delivery and modulation leave a lot to be desired. In addition, I also feel his capacity for understatement is limited.

Anyway, my main issue is with the national honours. Do they select people just because they are famous and were successful and have a great public image (rhetorical - of course, that's how they do!), or on the basis of their contribution to the art - how good they really are at what they do, whether they helped expand or redefine the boundaries of their field etc (I can only dream).

Rajini is not such a bad actor you make out him to be. Seriously if you are searching hard for a fifth great actor look no further than Raghuvaran.
Rajini never applied for the job, so no qualms for him not being hailed as a great actor. But let me tell you, if he hadnt made the career switch from actor to star aspirant,
he would have easily been in top 3 - purely going by the kind of training and exposure he has had with greats like Puttanna KanagaL, Mahendran, Barathiraja, Balachander etc, etc.,. Same way if Kamal hadnt resigned to being just an actor, he would have easily become the best film maker from TN (ppl like dagalti claim him to be the best as such).

[fring151]

Rajini is not such a bad actor you make out him to be. Seriously if you are searching hard for a fifth great actor look no further than Raghuvaran.

I considered Raghuvaran too, but I'd pick Vikram over him. 

But let me tell you, if he hadnt made the career switch from actor to star aspirant,
he would have easily been in top 3 - purely going by the kind of training and exposure he has had with greats like Puttanna KanagaL, Mahendran, Barathiraja, Balachander etc, etc.

That is speculation, but anyway I said in my first post that I don't consider him to be as bad an actor as some make him out to be. But the particular point about Rajni not having a performance to match Pasupathi's in VirumAndi, Vikram's in Sethu, Pithamagan still stands. He most definitely is not within the top 5 actors from TN and he DOESN'T deserve the Padma Bhushan, least of all before IR or Kamal, not to mention someone like MSV who still doesn't have a single national honour to his credit.

[app_engine]

he DOESN'T deserve the Padma Bhushan

sArE,
Please don't place too much weight on these political awards.

Or, for that matter, even the ones that are given supposedly for purely "artistic" merits (like NA etc), which are oftentimes manipulated and/or based on the whimsies and fancies of a few individuals.

They gave Bharath Rathna to MGR - definitely not for his "acting" capabilities but generally recognizing him as an important political icon. Similarly, they recognized Rajini as an entertainment icon, not necessarily as an acting talent only. Most probably for some political mileage at that point of time.

I'm not sure about what political equations were behind picking Kamal & VM this year (while I don't have any qualms with that - these individuals being TN talents worthy of such recognition).

In any case, Republic day awards are general recognitions only, despite being annual events. (In other words, they don't showcase what the awardee did the prior year / recent times or something like that.)

In all possibility, the next central gov will need JJ's help (let alone ADMK not becoming a part of it) and we can expect MSV getting some award.

Let us hope it will be "vibhushan" and not just the "bhushan" that IR / ARR had been given already

[plum]

sivagumaarA? *GapesInAwe*

*standsErectSideways* (No dirty thoughts, shhh..)

"discussion forumai..."

*bob head up and down in a irrythmic motion*
*roll eyes up, down, left and right*

"...joke forumAkka pAkkuRIngaLA?"

[Bala (Karthik)]

Sivakumar laam too much. Avare othukka maattaaru. Strictly one note

[plum]

Fring, C(K): Reg jatti viLambara thAthA(amitap), lot of people peddle this "he gracefully stopped acting as hero in his 60s".
This is so not true.

List of super-flop, terrible movies that Amitap presented himself as angry young man in his late 50s and early 60s:

Toofan
Jaadugar
Mrityudaata
Kohram
Main Azad Hoon(decent movie - the original of Velayudham  )
Agneepath (flop but cult movie and nesanal award undeservedly)
Akayla
laal badhsha
Sooryavansham
indhustan ki kasam


Succesful ones: (not blockbusters barely average money earners)
Hum
Major Saab(as old man supporting role)
Aaj Ka Arjun(en thangachi padichava)
Bade Miyaan Chote Miyaan(thanks to Govinda)


adhukkappuRam he is a SV Subbaih type senior extra 

So, this whole "Amitabh gracefully retired" is a sham. He was forced to retire most ungracefully. Rajini is still to taste that sort of rejection from masses as a young man. So, this line of argument is unseletted

[crimson king]

plum, I did mention those several flops. I fully agree he was forced to shed the hero tag. But thereafter he redeemed himself in the noughtoes. Senior extra? Really, I didn't know senior extras are cast in the lead, e.g, black, cheeni kum, sarkar, paa. Rajni has yet to. Rajni/kamal should learn from ab's mistakes instead of waiting for box office rejection.

[fring151]

plum, I did mention those several flops. I fully agree he was forced to shed the lead actor tag. But thereafter he redeemed himself in the noughtoes. Rajni has yet to. Rajni/kamal should learn from ab's mistakes instead of waiting for box office rejection.

And to clarify, my point is, regardless, he is not among the best 5 actors from TN. I am not even interested in whether he ages gracefully or not, the point is he was/is at best an average actor and like someone else said I don't believe he had some great potential that went untapped. He chose his own path and is the greatest living Indian now. I am not going to rue his missed chances to cement his place as one of the finest actors of his generation. He has got all the recognition he deserved...and then some more.

App,

I agree that the Ratnams and Bhushanams etc are about as meaningful as the kalaignars, kaviperarasus, Thalapathys  etc. But it is very annoying, all the same.

[Wizzy]

Kamal, Sivaji, Nasser, Nagesh definitely in. Permute them any which way you want to arrive at the precise ordering of your choice. Fifth is a tough one, admittedly. I am tempted to pick Vikram for the sheer acting effort he puts into his roles, however crappy them may be. I haven't seen a Rajni performance anywhere close to the intensity of Vikram in a Sethu or Pithamagan.

Nasser is utterly overrated here..take out philms with Raaj Kamal his resume falls flat
KH could even extract performance out of a kalimanu like 3sha so there..for reasons unknown KH preferred
Nasser over Raghuvaran who was clearly a better actor.

On Chiyaan's acting efforts, I could only only quote Olivier supposedly said during Marathon Man shoot "Why not try acting? It's much easier."

Sivakumar- surely you're joking Mr.CK. sample his romance act(s)- orgasmic rolls eyes/sniff     

M.R. Radha- unlike anyother actor anywhere this guy had an unfair advantage of just playing himself and peeps gladly lapping it up.
he was pretty darn good at it though.

[Bala (Karthik)]

On Nasser, like Nerd and Wizzy, I'm trying to recollect a noteworthy non-Raajkamal performance. Not many. Emdan magan was quite OK, I thought

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