Megha / மேகா

Drunkenmunk wrote:
This song came in 1994 when such talk was starting. It is not his 80s kind of song. It is very much a 90s Raaja song. Yet, it is only Raaja possible: VandhaaL VandhaaL Rajakumaari

Not fully Raja's. He let Karthik try his hand in this song.

fring151 wrote:I have been pondering over the popular notion that Raja's post early 90s musical output is inferior to the earlier period. Why do even many hardcore 80s fans approach his current works with skepticism, if not not outright dismissiveness? I believe that, besides the usual nostalogy (coinage-Kobi of Vijay tv fame) issue for 80s fans, there is another subtle reason for this.

When some fans or critics complain that the songs of NEPV or Megha don't sound like the 80s Raja, they are projecting their own inability to come out of their comfort zone onto the composer. They refuse to acknowledge that for a composer of his caliber, it is only natural that style and philosophy evolve with time. Anyone who approaches these albums as an "80s Raja fan" is bound to be somewhat disappointed or underwhelmed and you cannot entirely blame them. Confession- I was an "80s fan" till a year ago - that is, till NEPV came out. In fact, I would not have been that excited about the album had it not been for the media hype around it and it actually took a few listenings for the songs to grown on me. That album and the write-ups of Sureshji, V_Sji and others were what led me to actively seek out later works. So, in hindsight, and having "been there", I can say that the "80s only syndrome" is merely reflective of one's own mental lethargy and/or indifference. Of course, the gutter press and popular culture of TN also play their due part in this.

The real worth of some of these albums can only be assessed with the benefit of perspective - i.e after another 30 years, when, hopefully not too many people will have the pre-conceived notions about Raja that plague this and earlier generations. In my opinion, Kalvane is a new peak for Raja and will acquire classic status in the future.

My good friend aruLaracan on tfmpage , long ago impressed upon me, technically, Raja;s current day output are superior to previous ones. Many of us in our late 30/40s might like the 80s because these songs came during our adolescent years or so. Major part is nostalgia.  I am completely convinced the newer works are musically superior.

Dear Frieds,

  IR and HIS Compositiion....

 epodhum katru kondae irukirar.......... Reallity .. avarudaiya style .. avarudaiya gunam.... adhanal dhan......

music style um, instrumentation um... azhagaga maatri kondae irukirar...........  

10 years ku oru syllabus... idhil kandipaga irukirar......  adhil........... Instrumentation.......  adhanudaiya muzhu
parinamathaiyum namaku kodukirar... Use and through policy kedaiyadhu IR idam.........

idhil... mudhal 2 varudam..namaku pazhakuvar. adhanal....   interludes.. konjam dhan irukum... 

adharku artham.. IR ku theriyadhu endru illai........ namakaga.. medhuvaga... syllabus.. nadatharar.......... kadaisi.. 3 varudam
Interludes.. at their BEst form . ipodhu naam nichayam ready agi irupom.. rasipadharku......

IR dhan epodhum forward il irukirar. adhu dhan prob....   endha oru 10 varudathirku piragum. mudhalil naam dhan
andha sound ai kaetkirom.. Singer's style ai kaetkirom... anal. sila varudangalilaeyae.. ella MD yum idhai than payan 
padutha pogirargal.. Singers um ipadi than paada pogirargal.... adharkul naam IR ai purindhu kondu... rasika arambithu
irupom..

Rasika theiryadha IR FANS......  paadam puriyadha students madhirii... veru vazhi ilai. avargal dhan thangalai
correct seidhu kollanam. paatai kaetkanam.  

IR oru scientist madhiri..........  avarudaiya composition ellam... Radioactivity madhirii..
Alpha, beeta , gamma radiation madhirii..... andha andha area vil adhai adhai thedanam........
Alpha vil  Gamma vai theda kudadhu. adhu nammudiaya thappu..........

IR's Songs.. kaeka kathukanam. adharku first step... inga irukaravanga ezhudhara write up ellam padikanam.
padithal.. paatai kaeka theiryum............ kaeka theirnja.. padam purinja madhiiri... paatai rasika mudiyum.

kanaku purinjal dhanae.... home work.. sandhoshamaga seiya mudiyum... adhai pola than..................... 


Thandavakonae...  kaekavae bayandhu.. avoid pannidu irundhen....... DM's write up....... padithen.......
kaeka vaithadhu.............

Kiru,

As you know I am a big proponent of his 2000s works and have never missed a chance to highlight these works

Having said that, I personally find that in Raja's case, there is no way we can claim superiority of one period over the other. Infact I am one who objects to the use of the 'evolved' when it comes to Raja. Raja doesn't evolve. He just takes another direction. Whatever he did in late 70s was perfect and complete in itself. So was his early 80s work, so were his late 80s and 90s work and so is his 2000s work. At any point you see, there is perfection and a sense of completeness. 

Having said that, my personal preference is more towards his late 2000s work.

Raaga_Suresh wrote:Kiru,

As you know I am a big proponent of his 2000s works and have never missed a chance to highlight these works

Having said that, I personally find that in Raja's case, there is no way we can claim superiority of one period over the other. Infact I am one who objects to the use of the 'evolved' when it comes to Raja. Raja doesn't evolve. He just takes another direction. Whatever he did in late 70s was perfect and complete in itself. So was his early 80s work, so were his late 80s and 90s work and so is his 2000s work. At any point you see, there is perfection and a sense of completeness. 

Having said that, my personal preference is more towards his late 2000s work.

DM/Kiru/Suresh

   I have got involved with the 80s discussion many times and have tried to showcase Raja's post 90s work like Suresh. Like Suresh, my arguments have been read and forgotten. Most fans go back to the 80s songs like a spring getting to its rest position.

  Have you ever thought about why Raja's 80s works is very popular not just among people in their 40s and 50s but also with a number of others who are much younger or older? Why does the Suresh/Ravi of the world never succeed in converting these folks?

ravinat wrote: Have you ever thought about why Raja's 80s works is very popular not just among people in their 40s and 50s but also with a number of others who are much younger or older? Why does the Suresh/Ravi of the world never succeed in converting these folks?

As far as youngsters go, the answer MIGHT be:  just the same way as classic rock still gets young converts.  80s IR rocks, literally.  There is a lot of rock in his music of that time, without generally crossing over into full on electric distortion that might have put off his 80s audience.  If you just compare Mugilo with Eduta Neeve, the Telugu song from which it derives the opening line of the pallavi and listen to the first interlude, you will see the rock element immediately.  The sheer intensity of that saxophone passage is just mindblowing...it IS somewhat like King Crimson (which I am a huge fan of  ).   I understand that Mugilo is a different trip altogether once we get past the initial similarities but the point is that a lot of his 80s output has a raw fury that is just difficult to capture today without making the music much louder and heavier.  Which brings me to the reason why oldies might prefer his 80s output - I would imagine oldies would be hooked to the vintage analog sound and wouldn't care for today's polished, clear recordings.  I really love the NEPV recording.  I wish it could have been possible for IR to record his 80s output like that AND also get the orchestral parts performed by the Budapest or some other European/American orchestra.  But I am pretty sure it would turn off some older generation listeners because modern recordings don't sound as humanised as old analog recordings.   

I have kept pace every now and then with what music IR has been releasing but NEPV is my favourite IR album since Sathy Leelavathy for more or less the reasons I gave above.  It brought back the dark, angrier shades of his music.  I do like songs like Unna Vida or Elangathu but they are a little placid and predictable (strictly by IR standards).  A certain section of IR fans like it most when he surprises the listener and doesn't hold back on the emotional front.  I can speak for myself that I belong to that section.  It is what drew me to his music at a time when I was into either (a) Rahman or (b) Hindi golden oldies.   I guess younger generation likes music that is kicka**! 

While talking about Putham Pudhu Kalai in Megha, why nobody talks about its usage already in Africavil Appu by Maestro himself?  Its available in iTunes here:

https://itunes.apple.com/ca/album/raaja-geetham-vol-1-aalapiranthavan/id618112777

I'm one of those 'oldies' who are talked about here (nostalgia / 70's-80's rAsA & late 40s age group etc)

Just want to point out a few things (applicable to me and hopefully to most from this "oldie" group):

a) There had always been rAsA songs that got less attention (70s, 80's included). When I listed his 1984 hits for the VM thread, I could see that his "hit rate" was only 50% for that year

b) However, since rAsA was so prolific until early 90's, such lesser numbers didn't bring him any criticism at all as there were plenty to celebrate. (For e.g. that "only 50% hit-rate" of 1984 translates to a whopping 107 numbers - tell me which composer in the world had this many hit singles in a calendar year!)

c) Most of the time, problems with rAsA of mid-90's and later years is lack of such volume. He possibly maintained a great-song-rate much bigger than 50% during later years but the total volume had dimished to such an extent (esp. in TFM) that oldies started feeling "he is absent"

d) Oldies continued to enjoy rAsA's new stuff, whenever it had necessary ingradients (kAlApAni, Friends Mal, Time...too long a list for me). I don't agree to this 'synth-was-problem' theory at all. rAsA had some form of synth right from 70's and it wasn't frowned upon. (My personal crib is 80's synth sounded better than 90's or later synth. Look at the "gooom" kick drum sound of old PPK v/s mEgha PPK. mEgha is poorer by a million. Per Puru, AO used an imported synth rhythm instrument for that sound IIRC!)

e) Major issue with male-voice choices (problem started even in late 80's but overall volume helped mask this then - as enough SPB-KJY numbers kept coming out. That dwindled to all-time-low in mid 90's when volume took a hit + Arunmozhi kinds did 80% of that). This is STILL a problem

Let me stop here

It's actually a much longer list but this topic got discussed too many times over and over in tfmpage and doesn't merit any more time!

After all, it's NEPV / mEghA sAgA when IRFs have some reason to celebrate and not pulambify as to what happened in the last couple of decades

Excellent discussion, everyone  

Drunkenmunk wrote:I was in the same boat till a couple of years back too when I actually started to dig. Another reason as to why his post 80s songs are not viewed favorably is because Raaja in the 80s with his live orchestra was every bit a beast and time and lack of money in the the mainstream films stripped him of the live orchestra in the mid 90s and I do feel he had to adapt to the changes and he still was going like a Gun across the times from say a '94 and in Suresh's words, him musically keeping up even as the world moved past him has made him turn eyebrows with a new age monster called NEPV. Sure, the sound suffered in more than a few films. But it would have easy to throw your hands and give up but he is still here. He hasn't come back from some vanavaasam like people claim after every outstanding album releases (saw it during NEPV and seeing it now with Megha. Won't be surprised with such statements during an Onaayum Attukuttiyum either). I can quote more than 20 films from Mahanadhi, Veera, Raasaiyya, Avatharam, Siraichaalai,Kadhalukku Mariyadhai (re-recording), Guru, Anthappuram, Sethu on to Hey Ram, Bharathi, Lajja (that title BGM makes me levitate), Nizhalkuthu, Pithamagan, Virumaandi, Mumbai Express, Naan Kadavul, Nandalala, Pazhassi Raja and down to an NEPV and Megha where he has touched several musical peaks. Thiruvasagam, which I rate as a culmination of his genius, came in 2005. Whenever Raaja gets a full scale orchestra/symphony orchestra now, I can see his mind voice smirking with glee. Yet, we will see uninformed statements like avuru dokkaaitaaru, he has finally come back with all his might after each album.

Absolutely agree! As I said, the gutter press has its role in carelessly throwing around the 'comeback' word. Similar to how Sachin creates a world record with every century and the rupee touches a record low every other day.

crimson king wrote: If you just compare Mugilo with Eduta Neeve, the Telugu song from which it derives the opening line of the pallavi and listen to the first interlude, you will see the rock element immediately.  The sheer intensity of that saxophone passage is just mindblowing

A lot of his 80s output has a raw fury that is just difficult to capture today without making the music much louder and heavier.

NEPV is my favourite IR album since Sathy Leelavathy for more or less the reasons I gave above.  It brought back the dark, angrier shades of his music.

I wish it could have been possible for IR to record his 80s output like that AND also get the orchestral parts performed by the Budapest or some other European/American orchestra.

Very well expressed indeed! I absolutely agree. The 'eduta neeve' example is very apt. The saxaphone and drumming are to die for. The type of music that instantly brings a smile to your face - the intensity, free flowing basslines and sheer energy just completely draw the listener in.

However, I am not so sure I would have preferred the orchestral parts to be performed by a European/American orchestra. Two reasons - First, I think the musicians of his orchestra are absolutely top notch. Secondly, his arrangements of the time, besides combining elements of WCM and ICM also involved a masterly interplay of western and Indian instruments, both melodic and percussion. Would a western soloist trained only in WCM have been able to play the Raajapaarvai theme or How to Name it? The answer is a definite no. Similarly, the carnatic flute, veena, shenai, mridangam etc are intricately woven into his scores of the time - unlike NEPV or Megha. A western symphony orchestra would have been completely out of its depth keeping up in live recordings. I think what we got in the 80s in terms of production was as good as it gets - I don't even mind the recording quality in most cases, it only adds to the rawness.

Raaga_Suresh wrote:Kiru,

As you know I am a big proponent of his 2000s works and have never missed a chance to highlight these works

Having said that, I personally find that in Raja's case, there is no way we can claim superiority of one period over the other. Infact I am one who objects to the use of the 'evolved' when it comes to Raja. Raja doesn't evolve. He just takes another direction. Whatever he did in late 70s was perfect and complete in itself. So was his early 80s work, so were his late 80s and 90s work and so is his 2000s work. At any point you see, there is perfection and a sense of completeness. 

Having said that, my personal preference is more towards his late 2000s work.

I agree with you. 'Evolved' is probably a misleading word.

Well, I am sure IR would still use/have used Indian musicians for those parts within tracks/BGM that call for it.  But say a track like Sangeetha Megam...it has grand, out of this world string arrangements.  I prefer classical musicians from the West there because they capture the dynamism of IR's music better.  They bring out the subtle shades, the silences and the crescendo in greater detail.  Which is not very surprising because their regular repertoire requires them to do all of this and more.   We IR fans are not only used to but also enjoy the rawness of the 80s recordings but it is often a major stumbling block in introducing more people to his music.  The recording, the tones turn them off.  IR himself said he couldn't always get the tones he desired and was constrained as musicians could not import better equipment easily in pre-1991 India.  

But there is no doubt that the musicians he had in the 80s did an amazing job, he has himself paid tribute to their skills in that media event before the London concert.

crimson king wrote:Well, I am sure IR would still use/have used Indian musicians for those parts within tracks/BGM that call for it.  But say a track like Sangeetha Megam...it has grand, out of this world string arrangements.  I prefer classical musicians from the West there because they capture the dynamism of IR's music better.  They bring out the subtle shades, the silences and the crescendo in greater detail.  Which is not very surprising because their regular repertoire requires them to do all of this and more.   We IR fans are not only used to but also enjoy the rawness of the 80s recordings but it is often a major stumbling block in introducing more people to his music.  The recording, the tones turn them off.  IR himself said he couldn't always get the tones he desired and was constrained as musicians could not import better equipment easily in pre-1991 India.  

But there is no doubt that the musicians he had in the 80s did an amazing job, he has himself paid tribute to their skills in that media event before the London concert.

I see where you are coming from. Yes, I can understand how it would be a stumbling block in introducing non-Indians to his music. I remember reading an article in The Hindu a while back that someone from Coimbatore is working on this. Let's hope we get to hear better quality versions sometime in the future, at least to make it easier to introduce outsiders to this treasure. As for the highlighted part, well, we have to live with what we have I suppose, unless someone is generous enough to commission an orchestral rerecording of at least part of his work which is amenable to such treatment (Sangeetha megam, edho mogam etc) and Raja can be persuaded to rearrange the vocal parts for orchestra..wishful thinking I suppose!

crimson king wrote: But say a track like Sangeetha Megam...it has grand, out of this world string arrangements.  I prefer classical musicians from the West there because they capture the dynamism of IR's music better.

Being a 1985-er, this should have the SPB portion separately available

If someone commissions a project to record the orch score again (for this and similar songs), please retain the vocals of SPB (& similar originals) whose track must be separately available at the studio (or somewhere)!

Oh, I am not actually hoping for more of his tracks to be re-done with the Budapest orchestra or anything like that.   I just couldn't help comparing the recording and performance on NEPV and Megha with the 80s recordings.  And no way anybody other than SPB should record Sangeetha Megam.  That track is the apex of SPB...anything less would be murder.

fring, not only non Indians but even more mod Indians who are already tuned into modern recording...the finish itself puts them off.  Of course it's their loss ultimately.  I always feel people should keep an open mind about music.  But just saying that if at all there's any room for improvement in his 80s stuff, it's only the production aspect of it.   Now that he is able to afford orchestra for new projects, we can see what it sounds like in top class recordings.

Very good posts people. crimson king's points are very valid - especially about elements of rock and the appropriateness of using a real orchestra from the USA or Europe. (I only wish he respected or referred to older people better :-)  .. never mind even my 12 yr old boy sometime uses something synonymous :-) )

That said - I almost agree with Suresh, Usha (very nice direct style)  and Fring on the 'completeness' and 'perfection' in IR's songs at any time. But I still think there is an 'evolution' happening in his music. If we are to believe that IR's music is an 'evolution' of  MSV's or other masters . IR of today is an evolution of IR of yesterday.
Re: 80s -  

1. Note, IR, the singers and the lyricists were in their youth or at least the mature part of the youth. There's got to be some influence/impact in the music they make (does Vairamuthu write like the 80s now ?).
   
2.  There is also sound/recording and kind of instruments used (conga/bongos/beads/guitar/veena etc) aspect, Crimson king has a point about the 'analog' nature. But he has to understand, it is probably the 'oldies' now who have the transparent music stereo systems as far as I know. NinaivellAm nithya and thani kAttu raaja are the most transparent recordings also. 
   
3. One another theory of mine  is - earlier IR fused various elements/genre very aggressively. But after some point, he tried to keep things separate. When it was Carnatic, it was purely carnatic (eg. ivann). Mohan songs are a genre by itself. Similarly Ramarajan. Mainly after the first 'symphony' event, I think, a sort of an 'orchestral melody' genre started to happen
   

So that is the reason I said, IR's music of today is technically evolved or superior. I am not saying it is 'better' or it will appeal to everybody. But for me, I absolutely enjoy this 'evolving' IR. He is real, he is authentic. I cannot trust the 'pandered', 'product managed' music of others. Also, in crimson king's words, as an 'oldie' I think I also know about myself better, what I like . what makes me happy etc. This way I am not scatter brained, searching for the right music for me (even within the repertoire or single album of IR - I know why mugilO appeals to me vs kalvanE, while being completely aware of the beauty of kalvanE).
(@RaajvaDivine - do we know each other ? or are you just speaking the IR fan lanuguage ? Strong familiarity in your writings)

App, Kiru, CK, DM
 
  Excellent discussion, but the arguments still do not get to the bottom of the issue.
 
   1) Rock elements - Raja used rock and disco elements in the 80s as that was new at that time. He later introduced a lot of EMT sounds in Malayalam. Why was that not appreciated as much as his rock/disco by the same fan base?
 
   2) Synth use - Raja used Bells/Synthesizers all through the 80s. However, synth was one of the items singled out by his 80s fans as something they do not like. Why?
 
   3) Carnatic/genre driven songs - While his fan base appreciated his Carnatic work of the 80s, few appreciated his Polka (Keladi En Paavaiye - Gopura Vasalile) or his psychedelic (Vaanam Enna - TTT)

   4) BSO or any other Western orchestra - Raja collaborated with BSO for his Malayalam venture first. Only in 2000, he tried them in Hey Ram in Tamil. I am of the view that BSO or any other western orchestra (personally I enjoy them thoroughly) alienates Raja from his fan base or even his newer young fans
 
  His WCM based foundations have never changed, but his listeners keep swinging from one extreme to the other.
 
 Where is the problem?
 
I know this is a Megha thread. However, I could not resist jumping in as this is something that I I have argued endlessly without any conclusion. If this is an inappropriate thread, please let me know.

Re: anger in IR's music. It is much more than that. IR conveys a wide spectrum of emotions in his music repertoire than any other genre or artist. Some of you young guys here (like Drunkenmunk) are very advanced in your music appreciation or skills (understandable as I believe music is a genetic endowment and so will show up even at a young age). In general, more and more people will learn to appreciate IR in their older years (as I was able to appreciate the nuances in MSV's music much later in life). While the older masters do musical complexity, IR some how manages to convey emotional complexity.  Also, the more introverted you are, the more likely to enjoy IR's music. I can talk/write for hours about this man 's music. I dont know when we are going to see another person like him again.

ravinat wrote: I am of the view that BSO or any other western orchestra (personally I enjoy them thoroughly) alienates Raja from his fan base or even his newer young fans
 
  

Not alienate probably, but it goes under-appreciated most of the time. Even here you can see the tune heavy kalvanE being more popular. Well, so much for IR's interest in WCM. When he went totally into WCM.. Rahman and later his own son have dragged them in the opposite direction with just drum loops and drones. 
I tried to play to mugilo to older folks in the house.. they cannot seem to listen to all the sounds as a whole...they need an anchoring vocal ...which mugilo does not have ..mun vaayila paadara maathiri irukko ..ennavO avangalukku.. for the youngsters these sort of music is too complex anyways.. More later.

ravinat wrote:App, Kiru, CK, DM
 
  Excellent discussion, but the arguments still do not get to the bottom of the issue.
 
   1) Rock elements - Raja used rock and disco elements in the 80s as that was new at that time. He later introduced a lot of EMT sounds in Malayalam. Why was that not appreciated as much as his rock/disco by the same fan base?
 
   2) Synth use - Raja used Bells/Synthesizers all through the 80s. However, synth was one of the items singled out by his 80s fans as something they do not like. Why?
 
   3) Carnatic/genre driven songs - While his fan base appreciated his Carnatic work of the 80s, few appreciated his Polka (Keladi En Paavaiye - Gopura Vasalile) or his psychedelic (Vaanam Enna - TTT)

   4) BSO or any other Western orchestra - Raja collaborated with BSO for his Malayalam venture first. Only in 2000, he tried them in Hey Ram in Tamil. I am of the view that BSO or any other western orchestra (personally I enjoy them thoroughly) alienates Raja from his fan base or even his newer young fans
 
  His WCM based foundations have never changed, but his listeners keep swinging from one extreme to the other.
 
 Where is the problem?
 
I know this is a Megha thread. However, I could not resist jumping in as this is something that I I have argued endlessly without any conclusion. If this is an inappropriate thread, please let me know.

Will try answering them from my perspective:

1. More than appreciating, the fact that they seamless wove themselves in one 'Raaja genre' was the fact that fans did not single them out for appreciation. There is no rock song from Raaja. You will hear a Raaja song with rock elements in it nu Bala Karthik anRE sonnAr. vazhimozhigirEn. Case in point being Vel Muruganukku motta oNNu pOda pOrEn. Starting with a Carnatic krithi in Vasantha, it becomes a rock-ish song in Mohanam and turns folk as the charanam ends. Genres are so tightly woven that fans just lapped the music up.
2. Maybe a question of taste. Personally I love the synth he used in Punnagai Mannan. But I am not a fan of his synth in the mid-90s onward. Maybe synth complemented the live orchestra he used then and later synth predominated (not his fault. Given a budget, he'd go live) that even IR acknowledges that artificial sounds are inferior and that he tries to make them sound as real as possible.
3. Oh. Not from that era, news and surprise to me  Why would anyone not appreciate such songs?  
4. I love his WSO. Guess it again boils down to taste. Would love to tell every naysayer here like Sendhil from Mahaprabhu, "neenga innum pakkuva padalai nu nenaikkarEn"  but would be taken for a condescending fellow.

kiru wrote:Re: anger in IR's music. It is much more than that. IR conveys a wide spectrum of emotions in his music repertoire than any other genre or artist. Some of you young guys here (like Drunkenmunk) are very advanced in your music appreciation or skills (understandable as I believe music is a genetic endowment and so will show up even at a young age). In general, more and more people will learn to appreciate IR in their older years (as I was able to appreciate the nuances in MSV's music much later in life). While the older masters do musical complexity, IR some how manages to convey emotional complexity.  Also, the more introverted you are, the more likely to enjoy IR's music. I can talk/write for hours about this man 's music. I dont know when we are going to see another person like him again.

Of course, no doubt about that. Not to speak for crimson king, but I believe he didn't necessarily refer only to the aspect highlighted above. The strings of Madai thirandhu, for example are a perfect illustration of "dark, angrier shades of music" . There is a palpable tension...a smouldering intensity to this and several other arrangements throughout the late 70s and 80s. Similarly the happy songs are not merely happy or pleasant, they are ecstatic..euphoric...Azhagu aayiram, vaan megam etc. Needless to say, between these extremes, one can also find several subtler shades of emotions. (Yes, I have read many parts of Ravinat's blog on analysis of shades of emotions using different instruments). It is not too much of a stretch to say IR mellowed down in this aspect post early 90s.

crimson king,

Have you heard "Aruna kirana" from Guru (Malayalam)? Azhagarsamiyin kudirai bgm? I thought these pieces of music, though of a different style had the undercurrent of the 80s intensity to them.

Ravinat, DM,

In addition to DM's replies, what about listener fatigue? Familiarity breeds contempt and all that..I can easily pick about 200 songs of Raja from the early 80s period alone that most people in TN love and acknowledge as classics. So maybe people were just spoilt by IR and were in the mood to move on to the next big thing? After all, most fans (apart from hardcore fans) generally don't like more than 20-30 songs (even that might be stretching it) of their favourite rock band or more than a few symphonies and concertos of Mozart or Beethoven. And as App_engine says, IR had what, 100+hits in 1984 alone?? It might, for all we know, have less to do with music and merely listener fatigue and complacency- which is understandable. Just my random thoughts...

crimson king wrote:

ravinat wrote: Have you ever thought about why Raja's 80s works is very popular not just among people in their 40s and 50s but also with a number of others who are much younger or older? Why does the Suresh/Ravi of the world never succeed in converting these folks?

As far as youngsters go, the answer MIGHT be:  just the same way as classic rock still gets young converts.  80s IR rocks, literally.  There is a lot of rock in his music of that time, without generally crossing over into full on electric distortion that might have put off his 80s audience.  If you just compare Mugilo with Eduta Neeve, the Telugu song from which it derives the opening line of the pallavi and listen to the first interlude, you will see the rock element immediately.  The sheer intensity of that saxophone passage is just mindblowing...it IS somewhat like King Crimson (which I am a huge fan of  ).   I understand that Mugilo is a different trip altogether once we get past the initial similarities but the point is that a lot of his 80s output has a raw fury that is just difficult to capture today without making the music much louder and heavier.  Which brings me to the reason why oldies might prefer his 80s output - I would imagine oldies would be hooked to the vintage analog sound and wouldn't care for today's polished, clear recordings.  I really love the NEPV recording.  I wish it could have been possible for IR to record his 80s output like that AND also get the orchestral parts performed by the Budapest or some other European/American orchestra.  But I am pretty sure it would turn off some older generation listeners because modern recordings don't sound as humanised as old analog recordings.   

I have kept pace every now and then with what music IR has been releasing but NEPV is my favourite IR album since Sathy Leelavathy for more or less the reasons I gave above.  It brought back the dark, angrier shades of his music.  I do like songs like Unna Vida or Elangathu but they are a little placid and predictable (strictly by IR standards).  A certain section of IR fans like it most when he surprises the listener and doesn't hold back on the emotional front.  I can speak for myself that I belong to that section.  It is what drew me to his music at a time when I was into either (a) Rahman or (b) Hindi golden oldies.   I guess younger generation likes music that is kicka**! 

80s Raaja was not an angry man - but an impatient man - some kind of frenzy to pack a 4.5 mins of time space with a prelude+pallavi+anupallavi+2 interludes and 2 charanams and a finishing postlude - He was  like a kid who keeps babbling and bawdling all the new words he had learnt - Now we have a Raaja who is at peace with his music - relaxed - can afford to use a electric guitar and trumpets in a counterpoint - and still convey sadness and gloom as he does in Jeevanae - in 80s he would've used it for climactic thrill or stunts. This is why I am tripping on his present day outputs - that overarching sense of balance and harmony. we get this in his devotional albums of 80s and 90s. but not in his cinematic output.

@Jai - absolutely !!!!  .. that is how I see it too.
@fring- awesome post .. keep writing .. good to see posters like you around.

kiru wrote:

1.  There is also sound/recording and kind of instruments used (conga/bongos/beads/guitar/veena etc) aspect, Crimson king has a point about the 'analog' nature. But he has to understand, it is probably the 'oldies' now who have the transparent music stereo systems as far as I know. NinaivellAm nithya and thani kAttu raaja are the most transparent recordings also. 
   
2. One another theory of mine  is - earlier IR fused various elements/genre very aggressively. But after some point, he tried to keep things separate. When it was Carnatic, it was purely carnatic (eg. ivann). Mohan songs are a genre by itself. Similarly Ramarajan. Mainly after the first 'symphony' event, I think, a sort of an 'orchestral melody' genre started to happen
   

1.  I am not very clear as to what you mean by transparent here.  I would agree to some extent that the audiophile culture is not so popular among youngsters.  At the same time, the recordings of 80s have their limitations.  I used to have Nothing But Wind on a tape that somebody had dubbed for my father (you know, the old high speed dubbing culture  ).  Years later, I got the CD and have played it on a 5.1 system and not noticed much of an improvement.  The sound is a bit clearer, that is the most I can say in its favour.  It might have been impressive vis a vis standards in Tamil/Hindi film music of the time but I cannot compare it to those recordings that were held up as analog standards in the West. e.g. Dark Side of the Moon, Songs in the key of life, Crime of the Century, etc.  NEPV does figure as an improvement in that regard imo.  It still has a dense sound that some people don't like.  The reasons I have heard for this are pretty weird too...e.g.can only listen to it on a CD system/computer, not on a cellphone.  Yeah..why should one listen to music on a cellphone on the move anyway, it is harmful for the ears, no matter how many people do it these days.  But it still has a clearer and more powerful sound that is comparable with a good Western recording. 

2.  But Appidi Paakiradhellam does have fusion.  I think the other problem is the scripts don't offer him the same scope anymore.  When was the last time Rahman did something with the scope of Bombay for that matter?  The role of music in films is getting restricted and our independent scene is slowly getting a leg up.  In other words, eventually following the Western pattern.  Maybe by the time I am an oldie there won't be songs anymore in films, who knows.  And please don't mind, it's just an internet term, no disrespect intended.  But I will use the word elders next time.

jaiganesh wrote:80s Raaja was not an angry man - but an impatient man - some kind of frenzy to pack a 4.5 mins of time space with a prelude+pallavi+anupallavi+2 interludes and 2 charanams and a finishing postlude - He was  like a kid who keeps babbling and bawdling all the new words he had learnt - Now we have a Raaja who is at peace with his music - relaxed - can afford to use a electric guitar and trumpets in a counterpoint - and still convey sadness and gloom as he does in Jeevanae - in 80s he would've used it for climactic thrill or stunts. This is why I am tripping on his present day outputs - that overarching sense of balance and harmony. we get this in his devotional albums of 80s and 90s. but not in his cinematic output.

It's a misconception that you have to be an angry person to make or like angry music.  I am not an angry person (and I hope I have not come across as one  ) but I like it.  It's just the way some people love really spicy food and some like it bland, etc.  It's just a different taste...I find it exciting, engaging, powerful, etc etc.  As for the other part of your post, my point is not about the frenzied experimentation but the emotional intensity.  You can make emotionally intense music without jumping across several genres in a flurry...only the upper creative end of rock music has any amount of criss crossing, for that matter.  And IR can still do it....Mudhal Murai is a prime example of what I am talking about.  But, once again, it was not a song GVM had originally asked for.  Once Raja played the tune on harmonium, he loved it so much he couldn't let it go and created a scene for it.   So it has a lot to do with our scripts, our film making.   The melodrama of 80s is gone, well, for the most part anyway.  I don't really enjoy melodrama in films but it was oddly conducive for very intense music.