Re: Discussions on ARR

Drunkenmunk Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:17 am

Yes ARR was paid a measly 25,000 for Roja but he didn't have a choice then. Was speaking on IR's magnanimity with an ARR fan once and mentioned how MR himself mentions in his Conversations book with Brangan that he went to IR with a low budget film (Pallavi Anupallavi. Reason for doing it in Kannada was budget) and IR didn't bat an eyelid and agreed to do it at 1/4th his going rate then in 1982. ARRF: leave out MR, he is a kanjoos who gave only 25,000 to ARR for Roja. Me: reNdum oNNA? MR was a nobody when he met IR. IR agreeing to do it for peanuts as a numer uno composer in 1982 was his magnanimity. Of course, idha avar ellAm mAr thatti sollitrukka mAttAr and MR himself mentions this. OTOH, MR was a somebody when he made Roja and ARR was then a nobody and did not have a choice. Till recently, a five figure salary is more out of guru dakshinai. But IR did not owe his career to MR to work for peanuts.

As I see it, ARR fans are touchy and don't easily accept a narrative that IR can be more magnanimous but will readily pounce on what-an-arrogant-composer narrative. Fair enough. Fanbois, clouded by emotion, avvaLO dhAn varum. But there are more examples of IR, a commercial superstar in the 80s, doing Adharvam, Mudhal Mariydhai, Kadalora Kavidhaigal and many more films free of cost.

Reg. Srinivasamurthy intriyoo on a more serious note, the level of deception in "indha sapling Attatha nAnga dhAn kAndupidichOm/thiruppi koNdAndhOm" is staggering. If any ARR fan were to actually believe that, solla oNNumE illa. Atleast in his Oscar tour, ARR gave an impression that IFM was "limited" before he magically turned things around (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100089276) but inga the impression is IFM had packed its bags with orchestra by the time he came. yEn yA! Isn't this contradictory to the very "tabla-violin" TFM comment ARR gave as a newcomer in the early 90s? ippo strings section ellAm thukkunooNdukku surungiduchu, brass extinct nu yabba yEi reel andhu pOchu raa.

crimson king Mon Feb 10, 2014 6:43 pm

Posted a comment on that video, which I am reproducing here in case the gang decides to pretend it doesn't exist. Razz

"Maybe Mr. Murthy has (conveniently) forgotten the many recordings in the 80s that had not only strings but brass. Apart from his unsurprising reluctance to acknowledge Ilayaraja, what about Anand Milind? If he can't hear brass in Papa Kehte Hain, he needs to get his ears checked. I think we all know what changes actually marginalised the orchestra and hopefully that doesn't need to be spelt out to him."

**V_S** Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:18 pm

I too commented there. I don't know if ARR knows about this interview. If so, this methodology is plain cunning to be in limelight all the time just because his music is so underwhelming nowadays. The way they took Super Singer 4 on their own (with his presence to capture all youngsters), biased singer selections, adjudging their favorite singer who sang mostly his songs when people voted otherwise, the recent NDTV interview attacking yesteryear composers and their style (indirectly attacking IR) all are clear examples on how they work to be on top when music is letting them down. Most of all, this interview which is way too cunning to hide all the facts. The problem with all this is, they just ignite something like this all the time (more so recently) and remain silent like a humility mafia as if they don't know anything and complain IR and his fans about their arrogance when we can clearly see where the real arrogance lies. If we see none of these issues were started by us.

crimson king Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:40 pm

While Murthy states to the contrary, I think the Oscar has changed ARR's priorities to some extent. See, in the Cine Artist Union felicitation, IR held forth on the rich tradition of film music in the country and treated the award as a recognition of this (never said anything that directly or indirectly detracted from ARR by the way). He also pointed out that few films in India are made for the Oscars (Slumdog wasn't even a proper Indian film anyway) .Harris Jeyaraj also said IR should have got the award long time back. All this, it seems in retrospect, didn't go down well with ARR. Maybe he hoped that after Oscar, he will be recognised as numero uno by one and all. Perhaps that is what the public at large believes but his fraternity didn't quite go along with him. Hence, this subtle propaganda to discredit IR's musical achievements. Earlier the attack used to be drilled on IR's attitude and many directors wanting their own back were happy to oblige the gumbal. Oscar has increased their confidence and they are going after things of musical substance. But I think it will prove a mistake eventually. There will be a backlash and they will have to beat a retreat.

Murthy's claims don't have an iota of credibility. Veteran Bollywood arranger Kersy Lord once spoke on the radio and marked the end of the 90s or early noughties as the period when he got fed up with the scene and retired (of course he was referring to Bolly and not ARR). Didn't say anything about 70s or 80s IIRC. Bolly MDs ruling the scene in the 90s didn't quite know what to do with the synth. They were all forced to follow the winds of change post ARR and even then (as I said before in another context) violin and tabla didn't go out of fashion in Bollywood right up to early noughties. It's too late for monsieur Rahman to change the narrative now, this is India, not Orwell's Russia.

fring151 Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:08 pm

crimson king wrote: Oscar has increased their confidence and they are going after things of musical substance. But I think it will prove a mistake eventually. There will be a backlash and they will have to beat a retreat.

Backlash from where? No one except HCIRFs are going to bother. It is very easy to rewrite history in India where serious music reviewing and critique is practically non-existent, one can get away with all types of wild claims. Posting a twitter convo that DM (hope I have your permission Smile

) shared with me about ARR's post oscar US tour where he tried to undermine IFM legacy. Former Indian express reviewer and non-rowdy HCIRF Complicateur pawns ARRF thalaivar. Mei siLirkka vaikkum stuff.

https://twitter.com/SudhirSrinath/status/379065271656280064

**V_S** Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:13 pm

What’s more annoying is he has not much ventured in western classical at all in his music after all these 20 years in the industry even when he (and his company) had every opportunity to score for big budget films. Only after his advent, the western classical influence in film music waned because IR’s film offers were declining and ARR was using all forms of ready-made stuffs in music which every kid around the block were imitating. It is them who spoiled the huge heritage in Indian film music by bringing in cheap stuffs.

Still when it came to film’s necessity and meeting budget constraints, IR still did his best. The best example is for Azhagarsaamiyin Kuthirai when the budget is not a big one, still he used musicians from Hungary Orchestra. He even did for Dhoni which was again a very low budget film. In mid-late90s/2000s he did employ orchestra for many many films including MagaLir mattum, I Love India, Mahanadhi, Avathaaram, Raman Abdullah, Annan, Guru, Veera Thaalattu, Kaadhal Kavithai, Sethu, Hey Ram, Bharathi, Azhagi, Ramanaa, Solla marantha kadhai, Julie Ganapathy, Pithamagan, Manasanikkare, Virumandi, Viswa Thulasi, Mumbai Express, Oru Naal Oru Kanavu, Athu oru Kanaa Kaalam, Rasathanthiram, Ajantha, Cheeni Kum, ULiyin Osai, Mallepuvvu, Pazhassi Raja, Naan Kadavul, Nandhalaala, ASK, Ponnar Shankar, Sri Rama Rajyam, Dhoni, NEPV, Touring Talkies,Megha, Onaayum Aattukuttiyum to name a very few.

Even in this ‘toy’ music generation, Maestro has not let his fire die thinking they have spoiled it and let me move out of this mess. He tried to resurrect the wrongs. Not just in above films, there are again huge numbers of films where he had to live with just synth and he has pulled a blinder. Now when they are finished with all ‘toy ’stuff and trying to merge into main/real stream of music (with orchestra which is very very difficult), they already knew we have pioneers in our industry and to overcome this tough situation, they have to employ some cheap tricks to get mileage. So nullify their contributions and project as if it is new to Indian film industry. Now they have that power to do that.

For all this, it is we who have to blame them for spoiling our music reputation; on the other contrary, they blame our industry altogether. It is truly dishonest to issue such a statement when they knew what was happening before them in 80s, 90s and beyond. I am thoroughly disappointed.

crimson king Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:41 am

fring151 wrote:
crimson king wrote: Oscar has increased their confidence and they are going after things of musical substance. But I think it will prove a mistake eventually. There will be a backlash and they will have to beat a retreat.

Backlash from where? No one except HCIRFs are going to bother. It is very easy to rewrite history in India where serious music reviewing and critique is practically non-existent, one can get away with all types of wild claims. Posting a twitter convo that DM (hope I have your permission ) shared with me about ARR's post oscar US tour where he tried to undermine IFM legacy. Former Indian express reviewer and non-rowdy HCIRF Complicateur pawns ARRF thalaivar. Mei siLirkka vaikkum stuff.

https://twitter.com/SudhirSrinath/status/379065271656280064

That director lashing out at ARR on the small budget films issue is the trailer. There will be more of it to come. All these days, their club was good at keeping a low profile, "head down" stuff. Now they softly and nicely say bold and outrageous things, it will get reported in the press and there will be criticism. It is a matter of time. Even in that Srini fb post about ARR & RDB, there were people contesting his stand.

**plum** Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:13 am

\"crimsonking' wrote:
Oscar has increased their confidence and they are going after things of musical substance. But I think it will prove a mistake eventually. There will be a backlash and they will have to beat a retreat.

That's a good point. banking on "vellakarane oscar koduthuttanba so ARR must be Wcm master". and our people are dumb enough to put forward that argument

not ethat "western style" in our people's mind covers everything from symphony to rock and roll to jazz to country to everything

Drunkenmunk Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:16 am

fring151 wrote:hope I have your permission

You sure do. On a more serious note, re-placing the invitation to join twitter. Come off. iraNdu kaigaL nAngAnAl, iruvarukkE dhAn edhirkAlam Razz

Distraction konjam irukkum. But imo, it's worth it for the fun and engagement we get there and appappa anganga reply senjuda mudiyum.

fring151 wrote: ARR's post Oscar US tour

aah no. Pre Oscar tour. They spend time with the jury meeting them and give publicity tours. adhula kudutha pEtti. As in, all this will weigh in the minds of musically inclined US folks too who might think IFM 'lacked that something' till ARR came musically (like complicateur says, with all due respect to ARR, he should believe in it to say this when a section of his listeners, the foreigners, aren't listening to IFM other than his or it is HUGELY disrespectful of an entire legacy, not just IR's). odanE ARR fans sound'mbAnga but look at ARR's words. He says IFM was more of classical and Indian folk till he westernized it (one 'neutral fan' brought this argument to me and my immediate question was "what do you mean by westernization? Jazz'a? Rock'a? WCM'a? It is too amorphous a term, too broad a generalization and ARR brought his brand of western music and sounds to IFM nu vENA sollalAm (heck this holds good to Raaja too and there has been rock n roll in TFM, leave alone IFM, since the late 50s) but he did not westernize IFM" and she agreed but the larger point is it is too sly in the sense that one cannot accuse ARR of accusing his predecessors of not being pioneers but he is precisely doing that. A "look ma I am humble but I will slyly condescend" attitude his PR image has perfected) and his "national awards in India are given to archaic people and he was given it as a youngster" insinuation. As far as I knew, Naushad called IR a youngster in 1989 while releasing Nothing But Wind when IR had 3 national awards. Essentially, like Complicateur says, oru institution'ayE eLLi nagaiyAdittAr.

crimson king Tue Feb 11, 2014 3:52 pm

The Western PART of IR's music is way more Western than ARR. ARR fights shy of tension and that's the most important distinction, apart from harmony, between Western and Indian. But the vocal melody and singing style are very Indian and ARR camp takes advantage of this. I wish there were more people like Prasanna talking about this side of his music. IR's raga usage is analysed more than his chords, of course Ravi sir has contributed a lot. I liked how IR analysed the influence of beethoven in ananda ragam but wish he had done this much earlier.

Drunkenmunk Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:40 pm

crimson king wrote:The Western PART of IR's music is way more Western than ARR.

Of course. idhuvum oru important point. But while dealing with the neutrals, without bringing IR, pointing to the whole picture to counter their claim (when the argument is very broad like westernization in IFM. as in the case of Srinivasamurthy's claim, it is broaching directly on IR's legacy and hence IR'a vechu dhAn pEsaNum wrt orchestra in the 80s. Of course, neutrals don't enter this zone too much) works well. It is a tekkinikki because then they acknowledge you as a neutral IR fan ("neutral IR fan" kEkkuvE nArAsamA irukudhu mAmA) since you speak of the whole picture and having countered their argument there, introducing them to IR's westernization part's semmai, serappu works well. Tried and tested with a few neutral music fans Razz

Usha Tue Feb 11, 2014 4:58 pm

Manual Orchesta.. idhai ozhithu vittu.. Computer music endru solli vandhavangaluku... idhai patri pesa konjamum
thagudhi ilai.

SAATHAN VEDHAM ODHA KUDADHU....................

crimson king Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:34 pm

Unsurprisingly, ze mafioso has deleted the comments. Twisted Evil

Drunkenmunk Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:36 pm

crimson king wrote:Unsurprisingly, ze mafioso has deleted the comments.

enakku theriyudhE innum?

fring151 Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:00 pm

crimson king wrote:The Western PART of IR's music is way more Western than ARR. ARR fights shy of tension and that's the most important distinction, apart from harmony, between Western and Indian. But the vocal melody and singing style are very Indian and ARR camp takes advantage of this. I wish there were more people like Prasanna talking about this side of his music. IR's raga usage is analysed more than his chords, of course Ravi sir has contributed a lot. I liked how IR analysed the influence of beethoven in ananda ragam but wish he had done this much earlier.

Violinvicky does a fab job.

http://raagadevan.blogspot.com/2010/12/waltzing-away.html

Check out the archives...

fring151 Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:04 pm

drunkenmunk wrote:You sure do. On a more serious note, re-placing the invitation to join twitter. Come off. iraNdu kaigaL nAngAnAl, iruvarukkE dhAn edhirkAlam Distraction konjam irukkum. But imo, it's worth it for the fun and engagement we get there and appappa anganga reply senjuda mudiyum.

Under consideration Smile

drunkenmunk wrote:aah no. Pre Oscar tour. They spend time with the jury meeting them and give publicity tours. adhula kudutha pEtti. As in, all this will weigh in the minds of musically inclined US folks too who might think IFM 'lacked that something' till ARR came musically (like complicateur says, with all due respect to ARR, he should believe in it to say this when a section of his listeners, the foreigners, aren't listening to IFM other than his or it is HUGELY disrespectful of an entire legacy, not just IR's). odanE ARR fans sound'mbAnga but look at ARR's words. He says IFM was more of classical and Indian folk till he westernized it (one 'neutral fan' brought this argument to me and my immediate question was "what do you mean by westernization? Jazz'a? Rock'a? WCM'a? It is too amorphous a term, too broad a generalization and ARR brought his brand of western music and sounds to IFM nu vENA sollalAm (heck this holds good to Raaja too and there has been rock n roll in TFM, leave alone IFM, since the late 50s) but he did not westernize IFM" and she agreed but the larger point is it is too sly in the sense that one cannot accuse ARR of accusing his predecessors of not being pioneers but he is precisely doing that. A "look ma I am humble but I will slyly condescend" attitude his PR image has perfected) and his "national awards in India are given to archaic people and he was given it as a youngster" insinuation. As far as I knew, Naushad called IR a youngster in 1989 while releasing Nothing But Wind when IR had 3 national awards. Essentially, like Complicateur says, oru institution'ayE eLLi nagaiyAdittAr.

Wow. That says a lot!! IIRC there was another cnn interview where he sits in front of the piano like a wcm maestro and says something similar.

jaiganesh Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:15 am

Drunkenmunk wrote:
crimson king wrote:The Western PART of IR's music is way more Western than ARR.

Of course. idhuvum oru important point. But while dealing with the neutrals, without bringing IR, pointing to the whole picture to counter their claim (when the argument is very broad like westernization in IFM. as in the case of Srinivasamurthy's claim, it is broaching directly on IR's legacy and hence IR'a vechu dhAn pEsaNum wrt orchestra in the 80s. Of course, neutrals don't enter this zone too much) works well. It is a tekkinikki because then they acknowledge you as a neutral IR fan ("neutral IR fan" kEkkuvE nArAsamA irukudhu mAmA) since you speak of the whole picture and having countered their argument there, introducing them to IR's westernization part's semmai, serappu works well. Tried and tested with a few neutral music fans

Forget IR, the rest of MDs in thamizh, telugu, kannada, hindi all had big orchestra of violin players, cellists and acoustic guitar players. It is just that they were rarely given anything worth to play - It was only IR who kept giving prominent musical challenges to them. I remember seeing an MSV concert in DD where a huge ensemble of musicians virtually filling the stage - And what is the size of orchestra that "really plays" music in ARR's shows? - Zilch - nada - because it is a hard disk that has music and most of the musicians are acting on stage. Shameful..

**plum** Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:43 am

That Bacchan Propoganda machinist - I forget the link now, kid_glove might remember - started this orchestrationai koNdu vandhadhu Rahman dhAn. namma Equanimus lEsa argue paNNittu thERadha casenu vuttutu vandhuttAr.
ippO adhaiyE main pictureA pOtturukkAnga.
thirundhAdha jenmangaL irundhenna lAbam

fring151 Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:07 am

"Orchestrationai kondu vandhadhu rahman thaan" = "Baasha" introduced the flashback to cinema.

kiru Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:39 am

V_S wrote:
...
Even in this ‘toy’ music generation, Maestro has not let his fire die thinking they have spoiled it and let me move out of this mess. He tried to resurrect the wrongs. Not just in above films, there are again huge numbers of films where he had to live with just synth and he has pulled a blinder. Now when they are finished with all ‘toy ’stuff and trying to merge into main/real stream of music (with orchestra which is very very difficult), they already knew we have pioneers in our industry and to overcome this tough situation, they have to employ some cheap tricks to get mileage. So nullify their contributions and project as if it is new to Indian film industry. Now they have that power to do that.
...

Exactly .. NEPV was a challenge to the loops/hip-hop etc beats + indian melody formula ..
I guess there might be some attempt at gaining credibility with this 'I introduced orchestra' thingy ..
The conservatory thing I thought was for repenting for the wholesale intro of synth :-) .. and complete killing of acoustic music in indian film industry .. but it is being used to discredit a whole genre that has been going on in our film music industry.
Yes, I remember reading a Kannada MD or somebody recounting how some british guy who made movies in India wanted the indian musicians to use the orchestra "only then it will sound big ..only then it will be apt for the big screen was his logic".
As Jai says, orchestra was there way way earlier (heard engE nimmadhi ?) . Just that earlier MDs were not trained in WCM theory that much or educated themselves that much or maybe just chose not to use the orchestra like the way IR uses.

Rahman needs a genre to cling on to to get the credibility of an original musician .. the usage of this genre in one song and that genre in another song worked impressively like imported cars in the days of Ambassador and Premier Padmini.. now that he has the money and reputation .. the search is on for the credibility ....

And one man .. studiously, used the orchesta, studiously used the tabla and flute .. studiously used the drums/guitar + touch of indian rhythms and this volume of work will throw up atleast a few original genres if somebody is interested in classifying them and naming them.. this man did not get an oscar (who cares for maanguyilE or raakkamma in the oscar committee .. even if these genres have entertained the poor indians all along) .. but the man is real musician .. original musican ..

fring151 Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:43 am

kiru wrote:Rahman needs a genre to cling on to to get the credibility of an original musician .. the usage of this genre in one song and that genre in another song worked impressively like imported cars in the days of Ambassador and Premier Padmini.. now that he has the money and reputation .. the search is on for the credibility

Hahaha. Nailed it!

Drunkenmunk Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:16 am

By the by, https://www.facebook.com/milliblog/posts/10152013027834615?stream_ref=10 touches on a few pertinent points but rather superficially and misses the bigger point laugh

fring151 Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:22 am

Drunkenmunk wrote:By the by, https://www.facebook.com/milliblog/posts/10152013027834615?stream_ref=10 touches on a few pertinent points but rather superficially and misses the bigger point

You totally nailed it when you said he is basically a desperately objective person. Btw, this should have ideally been posted in the TFM humour thread, but as recent ARR related news and discussions also arguably fall in that category, you are excused for your transgression.

app_engine Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:57 pm

Much noise had been made by ARRFs all these years to discredit IR telling "ARR was the firsttu to put names of musicians on cassettu". They also kept harping that IR never recognized his instrumental players. (Which in itself is a lie, there had been cases otherwise and there are vinyl cover proofs e.g. kOvil puRa)

When something contrary (of rAsA recognizing his regular team) is shown with solid video proof, once again a fan's comment is used to bring back this "crediting on cassettu is way better than a kutti meetinggu".

First of all, a REAL HUMBLE person will immediately acknowledge that he had been wrong ALL ALONG for blaming IR of not recognizing his musicians. (Instead of stupidly proclaiming that cassette fine-print is greater than kutti meeting)

Secondly, if a person hates a HCIRF commenting on that video bringing ARR into the fray, and if he is HONEST TO HIS PRINCIPLES (that such comparison is incorrect), he should simply condemn that fan, even advising such people to not bring ARR. Instead, he goes a lot against his own "principle" of not-dragging-other-group, and BRINGS IN UNNECESSARILY such paid workers as Murthy to compare with an ordinary IRF Laughing

Hypocrisy at its best camouflaging as neetral!

Now, to remind a few things about this "cassettu-credittu":

1. Those fellows whose name got printed had CREATIVE INPUTs
2. It is exactly like the names shown in movie titles of ALL those who had CREATIVE INPUTs (that long list of names scrolling in the end credits, people simply memorize such names and create rasigar manRams, OK?)
3. Please show me a cassettu where ARR is crediting ALL THE NAMES of the "revived orchestra with 50 violinists" Laughing

crimson king Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:10 pm

Saar, partial victory, we are making progress. Three takeaways:
1. He landed a nice kuttu on murthy's mottamandai.
2. He acknowledged (in the comments) that these days ARR is indulging in factual inaccuracy.
3. Most importantly, he admitted that just because ARR gave cassette credits doesn't mean IR is not great for not doing so.adhu adhu, appidi va da thapli.

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