Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

crimson king wrote:It probably also explains why I have never liked ARR's semi-classical compositions.  They felt contrived and needlessly 'heavy-going' to me and this might be the reason why.

yeah.. compare them to the current 'lite' mode he is in - he is not able to 
get even one decent straight forward melody with intricacies out - all his 'creators' are either retired or doing 'judge' service in reality shows
and he has to trudge on with 'new' voices which lack basics of pronunciation and aesthetics.

In the context of credits - yesterday watched Kumki - (good movie, btw, I liked. Nice story to pick - using a trained elephant to chase away wild elephants .. this can only be an indian movie (not sure the africans have a history of using elephants for farming/logging etc))  and there Iman goes "composed, arranged, programmed, recorded and mixed by D Iman". I guess, he does not want people to think, he is like Rahman :-)  They even go to such detail for thee background scores - original score composed, conducted and recorded" etc
All because the title of a "Music Director" has become too vague these days !!!  :-(

This is one area where twitter is awfully inadequate and even an irritable platform to continue discussions - where one wants to PICK, QUOTE and COMMENT on specific points that are put forward

Look at this thread and other associated tweets:

rAsA and Hindi mOham of TN

After many tweets that were not comprehensive / cohesive because of 140 char limit and also because of each one sticking to his / her own opinion mostly and dismissing others as not-so-relevant, rozavasanth finished his conclusion in a twitlonger :
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rqemg2

While many points are agreeable in that twitlonger, I have certain disagreements - and there is difficulty to continue the discussion in twitter (i.e. in a meaningful way - quoting / placing alternate opinion etc).

Hence decided to do some blA-blA in this thread for the next few posts

rozavasanth wrote:
அருள் சொன்னதுபோல் இந்த ஹிந்திப்பாடல் பெருமைக்கு கேட்பது என்பதெல்லாம் ஒரு சிறு எலீட் மக்களின் அடையாளச் சிக்கல் மட்டுமே. ராஜா இந்த கணக்கில் சேர்க்க முடியாத சிறு கூட்டத்திடம் ஒரு மாற்றத்தை கொண்டு வந்திருக்கலாம்.

This is something I cannot agree, because of my own personal experiences.

First of all, none can have ANY KIND OF "FACTS-AND-STATISTICS-BASED" demographic info on TN of 70's on such matters at all. There had been no "opinion-polls", no "studies-conducted-on-people's-preferences", limited "info-sharing" etc. Hence, anything that people declare today about "people's tastes of those days" can mostly be personal observations & opinions and cannot be firmly based on numbers.

That way, if we say "rAsA kicked out indhi" is a cliche, "indhi snob was only the identity crisis of elite fellows / Chennai fellows " is similarly an individual opinion  - and if many agree to that I won't hesitate to call it another cliche

Why? Because, my life prior to joining RECT (1981 Sep) had nothing to do with anything "elite"

I lived all my first 16 years of existence in a small hamlet near a small town - which my wife still categorizes as village-like

So, I can easily declare that whatever "snob-w.r.t-indhi-music" that I personally observed during 70's had nothing to do with Chennai city or elite gumbal. The cases I'm talking about were mostly middle-class to upper-middle-class fellows of small villages & small towns only. Obviously, fellows from bigger towns as Trichy, Madurai, Nellai (Palayankottai), Kovai had even stronger preference to snobbing on western-indhi stuff during the same time period. Obviously, the population I'm talking about were not illiterates but had schooling but not many of them had any formal musical training / knowledge.

There were two MAJOR characteristics of this western-indhi-loving gumbal, that IR helped eliminate.

1) They formed the major % of music BUYERS for PRIVATE consumption. And they didn't favour buying TFM. (TFM disks were mostly bought by "sound service" fellows who provided loudspeaker music for kalyANam / ezhavu / thiruvizhA kinds and MGR-Sivaji songs ruled the air without question. So, MSV-KVM had their strong presence on TN air space / radio space which later switched to >50% of rAsA music over a period of time and not immediately in 70's.)

I've observed this characteristic of "hardly-buying-TFM" in almost everyone of the fellows who had record players those days. Obviously, those were a small minority, as music players became more affordable only during later decades. However, those people had considerable INFLUENCE over their peers / associates (being privileged ones having HMV kind of music systems) and thus helped create the snob.

2) They relentlessly talked highly about non-TFM and tried to put down TFM. (Much like today's DF-ers / hubbers / forumers / bloggers - though minority among general public, these talk too much about music and influence the collective opinions in many circles). That way, there was UNDENIABLE GLAMOUR for non-TFM among "educated" ones of TN in 70's. One can easily observe that in school pAttuppOttees and such stuff.

To cite an example, when Thamarai Manalan (a regular story writer in vikatan those days) wrote a thodar kadhai that became very popular those days with pictures by "Maya", it had the main characters communicating feelings thru "hum tum ek kamrE mEin bandh hO" and not the latest MGR-Sivaji song! That wasn't a stray example - being a regular reader of kumudam / AV during 70's, I can recall many such examples, that are characteristic of the prevailing snob.

If we agree to call ALL TN-ers who read and followed vikatan / kumudam during 70's as an "elite small gumbal", then the opinion that rozavasanth wrote in twitlonger can be agreed.

Personally, I don't think so

Another thing that very strongly points toward a "rAsA-resisting-indhi-music-influence-in-TN" is the continued snob of HFM in neighboring state(s?) but not in TN during 80's.

This is another thing that I'm talking from personal experience (only) and cannot prove with numbers / statistics etc as a "meypporuL"

When I started my professional career in KL in 1986, I was already a "committed-admirer" of rAsA and every associate of mine had to "suffer" some rAsA-talk from me. In turn, I had to listen to their top preferences, i.e. from a huge variety of Malayalees. While all of them would overwhelmingly vote for KJY (and KSC), when it came to the question of genre / category etc of music, quite often I heard "old-Hindi-songs". Actually, it was as big as their love for KJY-KSC. (I had seen any number of people who had special collections of "hindi-songs-by-KJY").

Of course, KL had "national parties" politics, Hindi taught in schools, not anti-Hindi in 50's / 60's like TN etc which had a considerable influence on their preferences of HFM. However, didn't 80's have great success with MF? None of those fellows had any love for indhi heroes but M & M were their top favourites. I didn't see any greater run of new indhi movies but indhi music seemed to be prominent preference among all age groups that I met, all music stores I visited etc inside the state. And it was definitely not a small-elite-group but practically majority who had so much of love for HFM. One can also observe it in every gAna mELA (and other functions / stage stuff).

Much the similar observation with Bangalore people during all my numerous trips from mid-80's to the new millennium (i.e. with the exception of TN migrants to these places who mostly ate/drank rAsA).

During the same time, music "industry" found a phenomenal growth inside TN. (Because I include "recording centers" as part of it, I had to place industry inside quotes ) And it was primarily rAsA music and other popular-TFM-hits-of-the-period (T Rajendar, Manoj-Gyan, SAR etc). Why? Why similar "my-preference-is-rafi-kishore-latha-asha" people were almost TOTALLY missing in TN in 80's / 90's? (I mean all my circles. Without age difference, they were SPB-SJ-KJY or TMS-PS if they were outside rAsA domain).

Even if one does not concede full credit to rAsA and wants to share part of it with MSV-KVM, we got to give it to TFM jAmbavAns that they really kicked indhi out of people's emotional sweet spots

All this in an era where regional language TV/radio was having very limited presence. after 9-30 PM we could only hear aaj ki kaach ki kaachmoochki thoo in vividhbaradhi.
Then this is indeed a significant cultural phenomenon/phenonair and not a dismiss-able cliche.

The comedian GA (more so after he became a politician / censor board member / NA committee member etc), despite having the opportunity of observing IR closely for decades, talked about him and GVP in the same sentence - simply because of personal reason that IR refuses to talk to him & has no place for him anymore!



GA should read this thread (may be his children can translate and explain to him, if he fails to get the many points discussed here)!

app_engine wrote:The comedian GA (more so after he became a politician / censor board member / NA committee member etc), despite having the opportunity of observing IR closely for decades, talked about him and GVP in the same sentence - simply because of personal reason that IR refuses to talk to him & has no place for him anymore!



GA should read this thread (may be his children can translate and explain to him, if he fails to get the many points discussed here)!

I guess one should not underestimate the power of sibling rivalry here.  How can someone find fault with TT songs?  How can someone who has been part of the industry claim IR's output in recent years isnt good?  Are you even paying attention to what the genius is churning out nonstop for over 4 decades?  In addn to this thread Ravi Natarajan's explanation of IRs various trends in music is a must read for the likes of GA.

Some are good (otherwise mostly known things / boring talks)...

Enjoy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ng8ULbLiRYo

Thanks app ji for sharing. Really liked Seeman's speech. Who invited this Sreenivas in first place? His half-heart'ed appreciation and irrelevance to include other music directors (for insecurity reasons) when he was asked to share his thoughts about Maestro on a very special occasion. These guys will never change.

V_S wrote:Thanks app ji for sharing. Really liked Seeman's speech. Who invited this Sreenivas in first place? His half-heart'ed appreciation and irrelevance to include other music directors (for insecurity reasons) when he was asked to share his thoughts about Maestro on a very special occasion. These guys will never change.

You're welcome V_Sji!

I think Srinivas came into picture because of the Star Vijay connection (as you can see some of these interviews referring to Vijay TV). Looks like the "jannal sALaram" had some arrangement with Vijay TV.

BTW, I was surprised that Pratap Pothen said IR was primarily a violinist   I always thought he was guitar / combo organ (of course harmonium) / piano player primarily...it's possible he could play many other instruments but typically have not seen him in pictures playing any other. 

(It's obvious that he had in-depth knowledge of what all those can do / sound / notes to play etc but himself playing a violin - never seen a picture like that.)

app_engine wrote:
BTW, I was surprised that Pratap Pothen said IR was primarily a violinist

எனக்கு அவர் பேச்சு எதோ போதைல உளறின மாதிரியே இருந்தது

Also, the Vijay TV 1000 function should have been the driver for this jannal youtube - considering who all got picked to get interviewed on their opinions on IR (most IR-loyalists are not there ; instead, people from "other camp" - like Srinivas / Chinmayee / Vasanth getting more sound bytes).

This Vasanth guy talks so much now about IR but IMHO he is not someone to be taken seriously, w.r.t. IR-appreciation. Why - whether willingly or not, he was an active part of the "anti-IR-gumbal" in the early 90's that heavily maligned IR in the industry.

As you can see, even in an IR-1000 interview, he wants to project KB-pic. 

He is a KB-loyalist who switched to Maragathamani in 1991 for his second film (nee pAthi nAn pAthi, that even had the title from an IR song, after the terrific kELadi kaNmaNi album that IR gave him).

And later, he was active with the KB-MR-VM ghOshti, promoting Deva-ARR in the mid / late 90's also. 

Either he didn't have a choice or was just an opportunist...may be when he sensed that KB was "losing it", he "courageously"  did a U turn and came to YSR. (He didn't go back to IR, however...or, may be tried IR and got kicked out).

Agree with your thoughts on Vasanth. It was indeed surprising how they selected these people to talk about IR. Shubha again absolutely had no clue what she was talking about. All those who spoke either didn't work or worked very very less with IR and they don't much deserve to speak on him (except of course Prathap and Mano), as they don't really understand what they need to say. Mahathi, despite singing only few songs was at-least honest in her appreciation and pride working with him. But there are tons who continuously worked and seen the works of IR in close, but they were left out which also suggest few things about this Jannal/Vijay TV.

BTW, I started making a list of these 'one-timers' (directors) who worked with IR only in one film (courtesy Anbu sir's list). The examples goes from late 70's to till date.  In fact, it will be good topic to start and analyze on what circumstance they come to IR and why they did not continue with him in their next projects. If time permits, app ji please start, I will join in.

Exactly!

I think this whole thing was an extension of Super Singer (as those team members are all present in this). 

Of all the people, James Vasanthan?

In fact, even Chithra / Mano - though worked a lot with IR - are here in this because of Super Singer and not necessarily because of IR connection.

Pratap is an exception but may be he is desperate to get a nice stage for his next innings, using the IR-1000 via Vijay TV. 

Which may be the reason why he was so upset on FB about the function (as they didn't give him much stage)  

There too the question - why Pratap, of all people? IMG, it's the general Malayali connection to the Vijay TV super singer show. (90% of judges and a heavy dose of participants should tell us that there are some higher-ups favoring this).

(Despite all these, I'm not complaining about Vijay TV - as they were they ONLY MAJOR ORG to celebrate IR for his 1000.)

As suggested, I'll start a separate thread on those "one-film-only-with-IR" directors

Some random article on a mag in women's section

What is significant about this article is the specific reference to IR. 

Possibly the author is an IRF, but the reference is added in a "matter-of-fact" manner and hence requires some attention by us

அதிகாலையிலேயே தொடங்கிய பயணத்தில், முதல் அரை மணி நேரம் யாரும் யாருடனும் பேசிக்கொள்ளவில்லை. ஒரு பேராசிரியர் எழுந்து, ‘என்னப்பா, எல்லோரும் இவ்வளோ அமைதியா வருகிறீர்கள்? ஒரு பாட்டு, ஒரு ஆட்டம் என ஒன்றுமில்லாமல் என்ன ஒரு சுற்றுலா?’ என்று கேட்டார். அப்போது வேறு ஒரு பேராசிரியர், ‘எல்லோரும் அவங்கவங்க வீட்டுக்கு அட்டன்டன்ஸ் போட்டுட்டு  இருக்கிறோம்’ என்றார்!

கல்லூரிச் சொல்லான ‘அட்டன்டன்ஸ்’ குடும்பத்தின் சொல்லாக அங்கே சொல்லப் பட்டது. செய்கிற பணியிலிருந்து வீட்டிற்கும், வாழும் சூழலிலிருந்து கல்லூரிக்கும் சொற்களைப் பரிமாற்றிக் கொள்வதுதானே இயல்பு. எல்லா பெண்களும் அவரவர் வீடுகளுக்குப் பேசி முடித்தவுடன் ‘பாட்டுக்குப் பாட்டு’  தொடங்கியது. எழுபது, எண்பதுகளின் பாடல்களில் இளையராஜா முழுமை  பெற்றிருந்தார்.  தற்கால பாடல்களில் அஜித், விஜய், தனுஷ்,  சிவகார்த்திகேயன் என நடிகர்களைச் சொல்லி பாடல்கள் அடையாளப்படுத்தப்பட்டன.

இளையராஜாவின், ‘நிலா அது வானத்து மேலே...’ பாடலுக்கு எழுந்து பலரும் ஆடத் தொடங்கினார்கள். அதன் பின்பு கைவசமிருந்த பென்டிரைவ் ஒன்றிலிருந்த புதிய பாடல்களை ஒலிபரப்பி,  ஆடல் களைகட்டியது. ஆட்டத்தில் கலந்து கொள்ளாதவர்கள் கைகளைத் தட்டி ஆரவாரம் செய்தபடியுமான கொண்டாட்ட மனநிலையில் பயணம் தொடர்ந்தது. பயணத்தின் முடிவில் அவர்கள் சென்ற இடம்,  கண்களுக்கு எட்டிய தூரம் வரையில் மலையின் பசுமை, பச்சை நிறத்தின் மீது அசைந்தாடும் பஞ்சு மேகங்கள், மேகம் கனிந்து தூறும் பூஞ்சாரல் என ஏகாந்த நிலமதில் காலடி வைத்தனர்.  

One of the points that I've stressed 100's of times in my posts is that PRIOR TO IR, among common public, MD was not a big deal when songs were discussed about.

Whether one liked it or not, they were mostly referred to as "MGR song / Sivaji song" and in addition, most of the times the discussions were around singers and pAdal varigaL - appreciating TMS/PBS/AMR/PS/Kannadasan mainly and others occasionally. 

It was very rare for people to discuss about MD / prelude / interlude / BGM. I won't say "non-existent", however. In some cases, as in thillAnA mOganAmbAL (which even had an exclusive "instrumental" featuring nAdhaswaram / thavil), there were discussions about the instruments. However, I've never had anyone even mention the name of KVM in such discussions  
(BTW, most of my arguments with peers defending IR during school / college days went like IR v/s older MD's or IR v/s MSV, typically not comparing with others individually at all).

Now, the grand arrival of IR CHANGED EVERYTHING. From film 1, MD was the hero of the ALBUM / SONGS

Well, because of huge marketing (add some idiotic / false claims that he "replaced" IR), ARR too enjoyed that "MD-focus" for a few years.

Now, it is all gone   The world is back to pre-IR days it looks like. 

No MD, including IR-ARR, does matter for movie makers as anything special. 

Neither to the public, who have started calling the songs as "siva kArthiyEyan songs / vijay sEthupathi songs"

In my zoom show, I decided to take two sweeps, not caring about the audience's sentiments. It turned out that they appreciated it very much as their big learning, more than all the techniques I talk about.

1. There is nothing called 'melody' song or 'kuthu' song. These are crude public classifications. Not musically. Every song has a melodic line. This idea was so hard for the audience. In order to make them understand what a melody is, I just simply repeated the notes of 'Ilaya Nila' in 'Do Re Ma'  format, and they immediately identified the song. I asked them, where was their idea of 'heart warming', 'heart touching', 'sole stirring' connotation of identifying a melody?  I had to make the audience understand that melody is simply a sequence of notes. Nothing more. Unless this is clear, the musical listeners are never going to appreciate what a harmony is or what counterpoint is. You can't question some BS written in a magazine, but when people converse, put them on a spot and ask them the way I did. This is the only way to promote understanding. 
   
2. There is nothing called Rajesh Khanna songs or Rajini songs. These are guys who lip synced. The music was created by RD or Raja and sang by Kishoreda or Balu. Never again in my show speak about an actor based song, unless it is a song sang by Kamal or Rajkumar (Kannada)
   

This is tough love and I think, in a small way, I have managed to change musical perceptions of a few people.

Another interesting incident from my zoom show (Jose was there) last week, when I spoke about violin counterpoints from a person who is a Raja fan, but has a very romantic angle to it. When I say romantic, it is just a perception of how a sound is related to a soul stirring feeling.

After I walked through some of Raja's violin counterpoints, he was thrilled and acknowledged that these are the instrumental parts he kept rewinding and hearing over and over again, several times (most of my examples were from the 80s). Now, he started asking the next question if I was making this up and Raja simply wrote those lines as it occurred to him. No real consideration to the technique. In other words, it somehow landed that way by strange magic of nature.

I disagreed. Do not get carried away by what Raja says or the speed at which he works. This internalization of melody and harmony has taken several years to shape and so many long hours of thinking and practice, it is now second nature to him. However, anything that is created by a human is a well thought out design. In the case of Raja, he is the super designer of his art form that you confuse that to some magic. At best, when I present his counterpoints, I may have missed some interpretations, wrongly identified them as I go from output to input. Never ever mistake this to be some fluke. If it appears as magic, it is artform that is at the atomic level of the composer that we cannot see, and that's what is called genius.

https://twitter.com/RetroTicket/status/1408659853694799872

Here's a thread of songs by MS Viswanathan (MSV) which you probably thought was by Ilayaraja. (1/n)

இதைத் தொகுத்தவர்களைக் கேட்க வேண்டிய கேள்வி:

அறிவிருக்கா?

app_engine wrote:

rozavasanth wrote:
அருள் சொன்னதுபோல் இந்த ஹிந்திப்பாடல் பெருமைக்கு கேட்பது என்பதெல்லாம் ஒரு சிறு எலீட் மக்களின் அடையாளச் சிக்கல் மட்டுமே. ராஜா இந்த கணக்கில் சேர்க்க முடியாத சிறு கூட்டத்திடம் ஒரு மாற்றத்தை கொண்டு வந்திருக்கலாம்.

This is something I cannot agree, because of my own personal experiences.

First of all, none can have ANY KIND OF "FACTS-AND-STATISTICS-BASED" demographic info on TN of 70's on such matters at all. There had been no "opinion-polls", no "studies-conducted-on-people's-preferences", limited "info-sharing" etc. Hence, anything that people declare today about "people's tastes of those days" can mostly be personal observations & opinions and cannot be firmly based on numbers.

That way, if we say "rAsA kicked out indhi" is a cliche, "indhi snob was only the identity crisis of elite fellows / Chennai fellows " is similarly an individual opinion  - and if many agree to that I won't hesitate to call it another cliche

Why? Because, my life prior to joining RECT (1981 Sep) had nothing to do with anything "elite"

I lived all my first 16 years of existence in a small hamlet near a small town - which my wife still categorizes as village-like

So, I can easily declare that whatever "snob-w.r.t-indhi-music" that I personally observed during 70's had nothing to do with Chennai city or elite gumbal. The cases I'm talking about were mostly middle-class to upper-middle-class fellows of small villages & small towns only. Obviously, fellows from bigger towns as Trichy, Madurai, Nellai (Palayankottai), Kovai had even stronger preference to snobbing on western-indhi stuff during the same time period. Obviously, the population I'm talking about were not illiterates but had schooling but not many of them had any formal musical training / knowledge.

There were two MAJOR characteristics of this western-indhi-loving gumbal, that IR helped eliminate.

1) They formed the major % of music BUYERS for PRIVATE consumption. And they didn't favour buying TFM. (TFM disks were mostly bought by "sound service" fellows who provided loudspeaker music for kalyANam / ezhavu / thiruvizhA kinds and MGR-Sivaji songs ruled the air without question. So, MSV-KVM had their strong presence on TN air space / radio space which later switched to >50% of rAsA music over a period of time and not immediately in 70's.)

I've observed this characteristic of "hardly-buying-TFM" in almost everyone of the fellows who had record players those days. Obviously, those were a small minority, as music players became more affordable only during later decades. However, those people had considerable INFLUENCE over their peers / associates (being privileged ones having HMV kind of music systems) and thus helped create the snob.

2) They relentlessly talked highly about non-TFM and tried to put down TFM. (Much like today's DF-ers / hubbers / forumers / bloggers - though minority among general public, these talk too much about music and influence the collective opinions in many circles). That way, there was UNDENIABLE GLAMOUR for non-TFM among "educated" ones of TN in 70's. One can easily observe that in school pAttuppOttees and such stuff.

To cite an example, when Thamarai Manalan (a regular story writer in vikatan those days) wrote a thodar kadhai that became very popular those days with pictures by "Maya", it had the main characters communicating feelings thru "hum tum ek kamrE mEin bandh hO" and not the latest MGR-Sivaji song! That wasn't a stray example - being a regular reader of kumudam / AV during 70's, I can recall many such examples, that are characteristic of the prevailing snob.

If we agree to call ALL TN-ers who read and followed vikatan / kumudam during 70's as an "elite small gumbal", then the opinion that rozavasanth wrote in twitlonger can be agreed.

Personally, I don't think so

I agree with you as well.... if one remembers the early 70s had some phenomenal Hindi blockbusters with songs that were so popular among a large section of TN population...movies like Aradhana, Mera Naam Joker, Bobby, Yadhon Ki Bharaat, Hare Rama Hare Krishna ....it was phenomenal that IR totally changed that outlook in TN