Re: Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

Drunkenmunk Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:34 pm

fring151 wrote:I wonder what they have to say about it. Any feedback from tuitter?

Not many did. But a couple did share this to say ARR revolutionized Indian Film Music like no one before did. As always, the ones who don't hear any music other than ARR's. It lead to an argument with a HCIRF where the ARR fan bloke actually said stuff like "you know more music than Dunkley who's conducted for Zimmer, ARR, etc. to question him?" to counter arguments than actually say why he felt ARR indeed revolutionized IFM with WCM. Also, pointers on IR's non-entity in the commercial world was made. As though commerce = quality. But then, to be fair to other HCARRFs, most of them did not indulge in such tomfoolery, at least in my timeline.

fring151 Wed Aug 21, 2013 10:57 pm

It lead to an argument with a HCIRF where the ARR fan bloke actually said stuff like "you know more music than Dunkley who's conducted for Zimmer, ARR, etc. to question him?" to counter arguments than actually say why he felt ARR indeed revolutionized IFM with WCM

Well, these characters provide the most comedic material, apart from the lone wolf jokers who occasionally troll this forum. And I have long grown weary of debating with people who have no grasp of basic reasoning and logic, unless it is for personal entertainment or timepass, which was the case in the previous pointless exchange that took place in this forum a while back and which I thoroughly relished Smile

. People who bring up the highlighted point to justify the interview are a) downright naive or b) deliberately try to divert the argument...You know, classic thoongaravana ezhuppalAm, thoongarA maadhiri nadikiravana... etc.

jaiganesh Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:21 pm

fring151 wrote:I recently watched the making of enga pona rasa on youtube and am tempted to discuss it.

To me, it seems like ARR lays out a melody and suggests some chords and the guitarist takes it from there and improvises. In fact, if you notice, at one point, ARR asks the guitarist (couldn't catch his name) why he uses a capo to which he replies that it is to make the open strings ring which would not otherwise be possible for that particular chord in the key. I reiterate again that it is not an easy task to write music for an instrument one is unfamiliar with and WCM composers undergo years of training in conservatories studying instrumentation and orchestration to learn this, among other things.

From other videos I have seen and articles I have read, it appears that much of ARR's interludes and harmonization (where he uses real instruments as opposed to synth and loops) is the result of jamming sessions with other musicians. In this respect, it is not too different from the way a classic rock band operates and it is probably the way most composers work these days. So, the music we hear is actually the result of teamwork and this is probably one of the reasons ARR includes the names of the instrumentalists on the album covers.

Now, from what SPB, Uttam Singh, Pt. Baalesh and other musicians in his orchestra say, Ilayaraja not only writes the individual parts for each musician, but also tells them how to play it, suggests fingerings and decides the tone. Was it one of the trumpet players who said in an interview that he would sometimes challenge the musicians on the way to play their own parts and not once was he wrong?! Now, THAT is genius. Indians have a tendency to obscure the meanings of superlatives by overusing them. This diminishes the import of the words and dumbs down society. When every semi-talented person in the country is referred to as a genius, it is important to step back and remind ourselves what the word actually means.

I don't mean to belittle ARR here, hell I love many of his songs. What I am trying to convey is that he often depends on other musicians for his output, particularly the instrumental sections and harmony. Coming to harmony, there are several ways to harmonize a melody and one can get an idea of the imagination of a composer in the way this is handled. From what I have heard and can recall, ARR's arrangements are usually elementary (Counter-examples welcome). To take a recent song, "Nenjukkulle" which people raved about for its use of an orchestra, notice that the string section harmony is pretty static, doing little more than playing standard chords over the melody. Contrast this, to take another recent example, the turbulent arrangements in "Satru munbu" where the string section is extraordinarily dynamic, and NOT JUST IN THE INTERLUDES.

spot on - I would like to add on one more thing to this - I hate that screechy guitar sounds that come in these teamwork music these days - It is the sign of the musician shouting on the top of the bus - IT's ME and the composer is a d**k. Wonder why this sound is being allowed more these days - it is not native and sits like a piece of swiss cheese in a sambar saadham.

Drunkenmunk Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:26 pm

TN Seshagopalan. Places Ilayaraaja on par with Thyagaraja, Dikshitar, Harikesanallur Muthiah Bhagawadhar and Papanasam Sivan. A KJY placed him on par with a Mozart. What is this guy? Yuga Kalaignan dhaan ivar.

kiru Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:03 am

Jamming etc works for Rahman .. not for IR .. how do you jam ennuLLE ennuLLE or unnai ethir parthEn .. ? Cannot get a big choir into your room in the middle of the night and experiment :-) Some things have to be done by design ..agile methodology does not work :-)

Raaga_Suresh Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:43 am

fring151,

Spot on. Spot on. Spot on.

Probably a month or more earlier was discussing the same harmonizing element of other composers with our forum member KV (who is very absent nowadays). KV also said the same thing. The violins are so very elementary he said. I have a feeling that most of them use high quality synthesizers and libraries in them to find the harmonic phrases. I have seen people play synthesizer where one key stroke sounds like a dozen violins. Not only 'nenjukkule' you mentioned but also the current Coke Studio Tamil songs have very basic harmonization. Very simple phrases played on the piano and very static strings. This 'sounds' good to lot of people but when it comes to ears which have been trained by Raja, this is highly unsatisfactory. The strange things is that such simple and cliched things get hyped and appreciated by many.

You seem to know you music. I have always held with my friends that anyone with true understanding of music has to gravitate towards Raja. There is no choice. (It is a different case with performing musicians, because they have their own interest to safeguard.) The amount of musicality inherent in Raja's music is such that you cannot ignore it. There is no genius equal to him. The tragedy of our times is that we have to compare a genius like Raja with people like Rahman.

Wizzy Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:36 am

Drunkenmunk wrote:
fring151 wrote:Indians have a tendency to obscure the meanings of superlatives by overusing them.

Contrast this, to take another recent example, the turbulent arrangements in "Satru munbu" where the string section is extraordinarily dynamic, and NOT JUST IN THE INTERLUDES.
Not just Indians Fring, not just Indians

http://www.edgemagazine.org/the-music-of-a-r-rahman-an-interview-with-matt-dunkley.html

As for your next point, strip an IR song off its lead melody, you'll have a very dynamic orchestral score matching it blow for blow.

https://t.co/FWIKeNGuUW

ARR indeed revolutionized IFM with WCM

even AR would lol at this conjecture. guess Mr.Dunkley/tards don't remember the birmingham symphony orchestra fiasco, after that experience AR seldom ventures into the business of conducting an orchestra and got Mr.Moorthy fulltime. grads to his man friday/spin doctor accountant for spinning a yarn that AR wasn't ''spiritually ready" for the event noteworthy

vicks Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:50 am

Wizzy wrote:

even AR would lol at this conjecture. guess Mr.Dunkley/tards don't remember the birmingham symphony orchestra fiasco, after that experience AR seldom ventures into the business of conducting an orchestra and got Mr.Moorthy fulltime. grads to his man friday/spin doctor accountant for spinning a yarn that AR wasn't ''spiritually ready" for the event

Saare, antha original flop aaana history is going to be 'rewritten' - http://www.thsh.co.uk/event/cbso-the-music-of-a-r-rahman-13/ - athey CBSO, but since ARR does not know the 'ABC' of conducting a symphony orchestra, they've cleverly made Dunkley the conductor and are calling it a 'Tribute' to his music Very Happy

This puts Dunkley's article in perspective - its a promo!

PS: For giggles, sharing the original fiasco report - http://www.rediff.com/movies/2004/apr/24rahman.htm

Usha Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:37 pm

vicks,

indha article keezhae.. Discussion board.... padinga.........nammai pola sila per irukanga..............

app_engine Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:52 pm

Raaga_Suresh wrote: (It is a different case with performing musicians, because they have their own interest to safeguard.)

Exactly!

Was watching last year's classical round of children on youtube last night (SS3 junior on Vijay TV) that threw some light on "melody manufacture" process of current MD's as compared to IR & prior era melody makers - i.e. when building their "own" melodies and not cleverly borrowing from yesteryear songs as in the case of rOjA rOjA rOjA rOjA (which incidentally got hailed in another program as a tribute to lyric writer Vaali Laughing

)!

The song that got extensively discussed was "sowkkiyamA" (perhaps the only one where the melody maker's "skill" got elaborately discussed - while others such as 'mannavan vandhAnadi' and the likes were taken for granted as melodies simply happened, with no necessity of KVM-kinds in the world).

Please look at the appropriate location of this youtube (Nithyashree talking about her "inputs" to the MD, from 19th minute onwards):

See, such people in the music world will find it difficult to appreciate rAsA Wink

jaiganesh Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:19 pm

I am literally imagining IR doing a thambi ramaiah style hand gesture (moodu) to an enthusiastic 'input' giving singer.. LOL
Much like veerapaandiya kattabomman ' ennai patri therindhadhanaal ingu varavillai' to prasad studio..

fring151 Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:54 pm

Thanks Raaga_Suresh and others.

he violins are so very elementary he said. I have a feeling that most of them use high quality synthesizers and libraries in them to find the harmonic phrases. I have seen people play synthesizer where one key stroke sounds like a dozen violins.

I am pretty sure it is synthesizers in most cases. I think ARR very rarely employs the services of a real string section.

This 'sounds' good to lot of people but when it comes to ears which have been trained by Raja, this is highly unsatisfactory. The strange things is that such simple and cliched things get hyped and appreciated by many.

Agreed. Not just in India, these days if you listen to the BGMs of Hollywood movies or television series, they do pretty much the same thing. I think it is to do with the natural sonorous sound of a group of violins playing a phrase which makes even a C major chord sound that much more pleasant.

As far as Coke Studio goes, I just found it to be a very well produced package with pretty faces and a healthy dose of glamour, exotic elements and stage aesthetics which naturally appeal to the average person in our country. I mean, I really don't understand where the fusion is. More like a individual pieces of music from different styles glued together.

I am literally imagining IR doing a thambi ramaiah style hand gesture (moodu) to an enthusiastic 'input' giving singer.. LOL
Much like veerapaandiya kattabomman ' ennai patri therindhadhanaal ingu varavillai' to prasad studio..

Saar, idhukku enna solluveenga? Aamirgaan giving inputs. Song is good, though.

Drunkenmunk Fri Aug 23, 2013 9:18 pm

Fring,

Konjam twitter pakkamum vaanga. Irandu Kaigal Naangaanaal, iruvarukkE dhaan edhirkaalam.

fring151 Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:38 pm

Hmm..paakalaam Drunkenmunk. Not a bad medium for having interesting short back and forths. Just traditionally not a fan of social media for various reasons. Of course for general music and armchair gyaan twitter seems like a fun place. Will consider. Smile

.

jaiganesh Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:14 pm

fring151 wrote:Thanks Raaga_Suresh and others.

he violins are so very elementary he said. I have a feeling that most of them use high quality synthesizers and libraries in them to find the harmonic phrases. I have seen people play synthesizer where one key stroke sounds like a dozen violins.
I am pretty sure it is synthesizers in most cases. I think ARR very rarely employs the services of a real string section.

This 'sounds' good to lot of people but when it comes to ears which have been trained by Raja, this is highly unsatisfactory. The strange things is that such simple and cliched things get hyped and appreciated by many.
Agreed. Not just in India, these days if you listen to the BGMs of Hollywood movies or television series, they do pretty much the same thing. I think it is to do with the natural sonorous sound of a group of violins playing a phrase which makes even a C major chord sound that much more pleasant.

As far as Coke Studio goes, I just found it to be a very well produced package with pretty faces and a healthy dose of glamour, exotic elements and stage aesthetics which naturally appeal to the average person in our country. I mean, I really don't understand where the fusion is. More like a individual pieces of music from different styles glued together.

I am literally imagining IR doing a thambi ramaiah style hand gesture (moodu) to an enthusiastic 'input' giving singer.. LOL
Much like veerapaandiya kattabomman ' ennai patri therindhadhanaal ingu varavillai' to prasad studio..

Saar, idhukku enna solluveenga? Aamirgaan giving inputs. Song is good, though.

ashudh hindi main bolna hai to yeh to chutiyapanthi hai. sabka idea nikaallo aur sabzi banao.. abe to hum khud kar sakthe hain na yeh cheez.

**plum** Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:34 pm

vicks wrote:
Wizzy wrote:

even AR would lol at this conjecture. guess Mr.Dunkley/tards don't remember the birmingham symphony orchestra fiasco, after that experience AR seldom ventures into the business of conducting an orchestra and got Mr.Moorthy fulltime. grads to his man friday/spin doctor accountant for spinning a yarn that AR wasn't ''spiritually ready" for the event
Saare, antha original flop aaana history is going to be 'rewritten' - http://www.thsh.co.uk/event/cbso-the-music-of-a-r-rahman-13/ - athey CBSO, but since ARR does not know the 'ABC' of conducting a symphony orchestra, they've cleverly made Dunkley the conductor and are calling it a 'Tribute' to his music

This puts Dunkley's article in perspective - its a promo!

PS: For giggles, sharing the original fiasco report - http://www.rediff.com/movies/2004/apr/24rahman.htm

Wiz - enna nInga? namadhu aNNanin marketing team kaivarisai theriyalaiyA?

It works like this - Dunkley has an orchestra with members in hundreds and looking for a boost. Annan goes scouting for an European name that can praise him. Deal struck. Rahman gets veLLakAran stamp that he is WCM maestro. Dunkley's orchestra gets thousands of subscription from mAkkAn Rahaman fans.

Note KM Conservatory press releases which say almost the same thing Dunkley says. Clearly, why would an European musician sya statements like "This was new in ICM and IFM". Surely, Dunkley hasnt spent his adulthood researching indian music to state that.

Now, people with thinking capacity, think. Think how such a line comes into his interview. A newbie fan of Rahman from West might praise him for what he has done - talk about what specific WCM concepts he has used and how well. But why would he make a comparitive, relative statement on Indian music? What is his motivation? What is his locus standi? What is his knowledge to state it?
Why does Matt Dunkley agree to make such a statement?

yOsikkum thiRamai uLLavargaLukku uLLangai nellikkani.

If not, look up the phrase Quid Quo Pro

**plum** Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:38 pm

jaiganesh wrote:I am literally imagining IR doing a thambi ramaiah style hand gesture (moodu) to an enthusiastic 'input' giving singer.. LOL
Much like veerapaandiya kattabomman ' ennai patri therindhadhanaal ingu varavillai' to prasad studio..

ha ha best said. Sivaji Ganesan is the only undisputable comparison IR can have in Indian Film history. Disputably, I will compare Kannadasan and you guys may come up with a few names.

So, very apt imagining IR saying it like Sivaji
But in terms of uccha thiRamai in their field, it's only NT and IR who stand in their own league

Raaga_Suresh Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:17 pm

Plum,

I will have to politely disagree there. No one matches Raja in the field of arts from Tamilnadu.

As far as I am concerned, there were only two people in the 20th Century and beyond from Tamilnadu whom I would use the word genius for. One if Srinivasa Ramanujan and other is Illaiyaraja. In first case, it is a combination of me reading something of what Ramanujan did and also hearing from other mathematicians on their opinion of him. In case of Illayaraja, it is purely out of my experience.

fring151 Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:16 pm

Raaga_Suresh wrote:Plum,

I will have to politely disagree there. No one matches Raja in the field of arts from Tamilnadu.

As far as I am concerned, there were only two people in the 20th Century and beyond from Tamilnadu whom I would use the word genius for. One if Srinivasa Ramanujan and other is Illaiyaraja. In first case, it is a combination of me reading something of what Ramanujan did and also hearing from other mathematicians on their opinion of him. In case of Illayaraja, it is purely out of my experience.

While I haven't seen too many of Sivaji's movies and can't really engage in a discussion of his acting skills, I partially agree with you. I disagree in that I would say there are more names we can add to the list of geniuses. However, having some exposure to Ramanujan's work and accounts of him from various sources, he is the perfect mathematical equivalent of Ilayaraja.

app_engine Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:32 pm

We often hear the claim from 3rd grade singers that "rAsA has everything fixed and we can't change anything". It is most probably true, IN THEIR CASES :-)

OTOH, I've read ( or heard) SPB talking about the "competition" he had with SJ in "adding extra this thing"! (Which is why their songs are a class apart, even among the glitterati by rAsA - as tweeted by P_R yesterday).

Now, one more case : (Look at 19th min onwards in this video):

I guess the praise by Sudha Ragunathan is partly due to her proximity (to rAsA) and partly due to TRUE APPRECIATION of the genius!

In any case, this shows that where it is deserved and appropriate, IR gives the musician / singer the "space" (as opposed to taking inputs) Smile

**plum** Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:40 pm

Reading Matt Dunkley's interview, I am getting this question that Gounder once asked:

[youtube]m23neBPpwWM#t=80s[/flash]

Dunkley: Thambi ragumAn pAttu kEkkaRachE indhiya isailEyE ipdi edhuvum thirala vandhadillainu nAn solREn
Gounder: "dEi nee thillAnA mOganAmbaL pArthirukkayAdA?"

Wizzy Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:34 pm

plum wrote:
vicks wrote:
Wizzy wrote:

even AR would lol at this conjecture. guess Mr.Dunkley/tards don't remember the birmingham symphony orchestra fiasco, after that experience AR seldom ventures into the business of conducting an orchestra and got Mr.Moorthy fulltime. grads to his man friday/spin doctor accountant for spinning a yarn that AR wasn't ''spiritually ready" for the event
Saare, antha original flop aaana history is going to be 'rewritten' - http://www.thsh.co.uk/event/cbso-the-music-of-a-r-rahman-13/ - athey CBSO, but since ARR does not know the 'ABC' of conducting a symphony orchestra, they've cleverly made Dunkley the conductor and are calling it a 'Tribute' to his music

This puts Dunkley's article in perspective - its a promo!

PS: For giggles, sharing the original fiasco report - http://www.rediff.com/movies/2004/apr/24rahman.htm
Wiz - enna nInga? namadhu aNNanin marketing team kaivarisai theriyalaiyA?

It works like this - Dunkley has an orchestra with members in hundreds and looking for a boost. Annan goes scouting for an European name that can praise him. Deal struck. Rahman gets veLLakAran stamp that he is WCM maestro. Dunkley's orchestra gets thousands of subscription from mAkkAn Rahaman fans.

Note KM Conservatory press releases which say almost the same thing Dunkley says. Clearly, why would an European musician sya statements like "This was new in ICM and IFM". Surely, Dunkley hasnt spent his adulthood researching indian music to state that.

Now, people with thinking capacity, think. Think how such a line comes into his interview. A newbie fan of Rahman from West might praise him for what he has done - talk about what specific WCM concepts he has used and how well. But why would he make a comparitive, relative statement on Indian music? What is his motivation? What is his locus standi? What is his knowledge to state it?
Why does Matt Dunkley agree to make such a statement?

yOsikkum thiRamai uLLavargaLukku uLLangai nellikkani.

If not, look up the phrase Quid Quo Pro

Vicks, we can safely conclude AR is better prepared this time Laughing

Plum, Dunkley seems to be highly networked guy,IIRC he conducted Babelsberg orchestra when they did a similar tribute tour here.
won't be surprised if he is on a monthly payroll.

Drunkenmunk Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:01 pm

Wizzy wrote:Plum, Dunkley seems to be highly networked guy,IIRC he conducted Babelsberg orchestra when they did a similar tribute tour here.
won't be surprised if he is on a monthly payroll.

Apparently this Donk(l)ey has also conducted and orchestrated for Zimmer in Inception, Dark Knight, Moulin Rouge, etc. He is also conducting and orchestrating the score for ARR's Kochadaiyaan.

crimson king Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:41 pm

app_engine wrote:
The song that got extensively discussed was "sowkkiyamA" (perhaps the only one where the melody maker's "skill" got elaborately discussed - while others such as 'mannavan vandhAnadi' and the likes were taken for granted as melodies simply happened, with no necessity of KVM-kinds in the world).

Please look at the appropriate location of this youtube (Nithyashree talking about her "inputs" to the MD, from 19th minute onwards):

I know this is old, but thanks for the share, app_engine. I am a bit shocked to learn this is the extent of cut and paste he is possibly indulging in. We have heard about this inputs business for sometime but this is a pretty good demo of what might be happening in the recording sessions. So I take it the song isn't even ready when he pencils in the singer? That is strange. ARR is entitled to use whatever approach works for him - not getting into the issue of appropriate credits and all - but I'd have thought the charanam would flow as a logical progression of the pallavi and not adjust-madi-ed from another composition. It is easy for me to say this as a mere listener, sure, but I am sure that is not how IR works.

crimson king Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:43 pm

It probably also explains why I have never liked ARR's semi-classical compositions. They felt contrived and needlessly 'heavy-going' to me and this might be the reason why.

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