Why IR is NOT simply someone between MSV-time & ARR-time

podhuva oru    insightful confab.

That of small-time-movie-enthusiasts coming to Chennai pinning their hopes in rAsA Smile

edhuthan edhuthan...inspite of all the BS sprouted around in the media, Raasa was/still is The most accesbile MD in TFM history, though has to be said he has patently refused self-doubting saraganathi first timers cue:Ananthu/Parthiban regardless of reccos they come up with whilst OTOH AR seems to be living in his own cuckoo signing up with his chuddy buddies and their iks or those who call up for work during his prayer times cue:Abbas/Khalid nor does he taken any paycuts in his career. imo, this has greatly limited his vision/growth as MD.

Edit: Sureshji, With regard to ARR complexity, I can think of Anjali Anjali as being an example of a reasonably complex song from the early period. Admittedly it was in 1994 and hence he was not a complete freshie. I have read, though that the sax part was completely improvised by Kadri Gopalnath. I think ARR consistently gave better and more "complex"  songs in Tamil than in Hindi.

IIRC KadriG did 'Mettupoddu' whilst other tracks including 'Anjali' were done by lesser known saxplayer 'Raju' who did what Kebah did to 'Enga ponna Rasa' if you get the drift  . 
we can pretty much conclude any serious/complex work done by AR comes with fair share of renowned/lesser known musicians inputs which treads into territory of collaboratory work,who the tards seem to conveniently ignore. seriously how many know of Guitar Prasanna's work in conducting/arranging the Lagaan's theme or his work for Swades.

Last night, I was watching some Vijay TV highlights on TMS and PBS and enjoying it (inspite of the stalwars themselves not able to sing or the pale-by-comparison new singers). Then out of the blue, PS sings kaalidhaasan kannadhaasan kavidhai nee with Unni Menon. When I hear this from my IR collection I just enjoy it. But when I heard it vis-a--vis TMS/PBS songs what a contrast. While the other songs had good vocals/lyrics and focus was on that .. with the kaalidhaasan ..kannadhasan I was enjoying all the music in the song - vocals+orchestration+humming. This is the kind of approach to IR's music which the the monophonic indian ear has to be trained to listened to. ( my suggestion to make people appreciate IR's music, it to edit the vocals part out and make people listen to it, first.)
And not surprisingly, a blog by vamanan, I happened upon this morning says, IR is overrated.. hmm.. How can you open somebody's eyes (the musical eyes) when they are pretending to sleep !!! 
(BTW, I am a great fan of PBS (later KJY), while I respect TMS).

I am yet to read even  a single post in this thread.
But the title is enough for me to vent my ire that is pent up for so many years and that it  reached a boiling point
particularly during the last one week's telecast of various Vaali felicicitation functions by various TV channels where
all these gnyaAna shoonya kolly celebs"also" praised IR as worthy successor to MSV and ARR taking over the TFM baton from IR and how the perumaikkuriya legacy continues.. blah..
Idhu enna annyAyam? Is it too much to expect some kind of discernment from the very industry where our man gave "it" all?
By "it" , it is  only songs and bgm/rerecording if one were to talk in dry quantifiable terms.
What about elevating even ordinary movie like "Sigappu RojAkkaL" to a cult classic, , identifying one own life's experiences with his music that has journeyed through hundreds of movies, there by navigating every nook and corner of not just humn emotions, but also animal instincts ) [remember iLamanadhu..]
Which other MD can boast of the above???

mythila,

nalla vELai me not a TV-watcher, even the little dose of VijayTV on youtube (the super singer thingy) had been proving to be injurious to health.

The net world is similarly comical. I've seen a news (or blog may be) that talked like "Vaali continued to be valid in TF for long while two biggie composers who worked with him became invalid", pointing to MSV & IR.

Comparing apples to oranges apart, how can one be either so ignorant (to the fact that even last year rAsA got nominated for kichukkichu awards like Vijay TV / pilimfare) or simply so adamant in pulling down a "yugakkalaingan" - compared to none other than Bharathi by Kamalahasan?

I guess in that angle too - that of being unnecessarily hated / targeted by both older & later generation pOrALi fans, IR is unique

While I'm not qualified to talk about rAsA being unparalleled in rAgA-exploration, the T Sounder series seem to give him that title, this article being a sample :

T Sounder's article on keeravANi, following his articles on mOhanam, kalyANi

I leave it to music experts to dwell on this further

Also, V_Sji was talking about a post on rAsA bass guitar...eagerly waiting

app_engine wrote:While I'm not qualified to talk about rAsA being unparalleled in rAgA-exploration, the T Sounder series seem to give him that title, this article being a sample :

T Sounder's article on keeravANi, following his articles on mOhanam, kalyANi

I leave it to music experts to dwell on this further

Also, V_Sji was talking about a post on rAsA bass guitar...eagerly waiting

 Thanks for the link app. romba azhagaga eduthu solli irukar......... 

IR...........  Kurudargal thadavi partha yaanai madhirii.......... ipadi than naan solven.

Ravi Nat sonnar ... exact aga nyabagam ilai..... Universe il irukum oru Star.......... pola endru........

Varieties. idhu dhan IR....................

Ragam., Guitar, Flute, Thalam, Violin, Harmony, Counterpoint endru.. oru isaiyil ella parnamathaiyum............ koduthavar.
adhaiyum........ niraiyavae... koduthu irukar........... adhilum....... naan epodhum sollum Nativity, Reality,Characters, Situations, Feelings and the EXPRESSION.......  indha expression iruake.. adhu  .. Unmaiyana ul manadhin velipadu.........  adhu dhan
avarin Sirapu thanmai...............

IR.. oru Scientist madhiri......  edhaiyum avar Invention seidhu irukar........

VJ.... seekiram ezhudhunga.. Guitar works pathi........

dig

May be I'm reading too much in ARR's statement, that "KJY makes ketta tunes sound good"


IIRC, KJY sang only very few in ARR music - OTOH, he did plenty for IR when ARR was playing keyboard in the team...was it that ARR observed so many "ketta" tunes of IR made tolerable by the sheer magic of KJY voice? (enna oru humble way of attack)


end-dig

app_engine wrote:May be I'm reading too much in ARR's statement, that "KJY makes ketta tunes sound good"


IIRC, KJY sang only very few in ARR music - OTOH, he did plenty for IR when ARR was playing keyboard in the team...was it that ARR observed so many "ketta" tunes of IR made tolerable by the sheer magic of KJY voice? (enna oru humble way of attack)


end-dig

 Saw the video, sounds more like a Freudian slip /admission that his 'tunes' are sumaar, than a 'humble attack' on IR.. though this fellow has done that in the past ("before I came to the industry, film music was all tablas and violins" <-- this statement none of his fans will consider 'arrogant'/'stupid', namma aalu depth ulla unmaiyellam sonna mattum ...  )

i think it is casual and typicall - neenga pesinaaleye paadraapula irukku - kinda statement.. should not mix with cinema poets too much..

vicks,
I don't think KJY had sung that many with ARR

'pachchaikkiLigaL thOLOdu' ketta tune? (Why then ARR recycled that as 'suththi suththi vandheeha'?  )

What other songs has KJY sung for ARR anyways? Can someone tell me? I don't recall that many...

jaiganesh wrote:i think it is casual and typicall - neenga pesinaaleye paadraapula irukku - kinda statement.. should not mix with cinema poets too much..

 "ketta tune" is not a casual statement IMHO - coming from a world-known composer, on stage

I think it was "KJY'yai pugazhvadhu pOla IR'aip pazhiththal" - vanjappugazhchchi is a typical characteristic of all "humble-acting-fellows" per my observation in real-life!

I watched it again

Jai, he doesn't stop with a simple statement!

He continues "nAn neRaiya notice paNNi irukkEn"  and goes on even elaborating it - the agenda is very clear!

There, he cleverly and carefully eliminates his own tunes (that won't come under "noticing")!

ALu padu smArttu! He got an opportunity on a TN channel stage - and didn't fail to shoot an arrow on rAsA!

Well, I don't think indha mAthiri rAsA targetted seniors, without mentioning names...jAdaippEchchu by ARR

KJY neraya composers ku nerayA languages la paadirukkArE. IMHO, too vague to point a finger.

Agree. Too vague to think it is vanjapugazhchi,
Also, indha mAdhiri situation-la, we shouldn't rant. We should use sarcasm.

PEr that

ARR: ketta tune-aiyum nallA kEkka vekka koodiyavar KJU
(Setup Gounder voice in bkg): adhu pachai kiLigaL thOLOdu release AnappOvE engaLukku theriyumdi,

plum,


BTW, a few days back there was some noise on twitter when someone did a casual "quantitative" mention of ARR w.r.t. Rex sir's 365 quiz anniversary.

The general "aRachcheetRam" of HCARRFs was "why can't you praise your favourite without dissing our favourite?"

Now, their own idol demonstrates on this youtube that it is an "accepted practice"
(He took just about a minute to praise a legend like KJY for a lifetime achievement award and yet even within such a short time dissed the entire set of south Indian composers, if not just himself or IR)

Just giving our Raaga_Suresh's theory a proof with a post in the blog: http://raajasongadaykeepsboredomaway.wordpress.com/2013/08/04/73-breathless/ Do read

Drunkenmunk wrote:Just giving our Raaga_Suresh's theory a proof with a post in the blog: http://raajasongadaykeepsboredomaway.wordpress.com/2013/08/04/73-breathless/ Do read

 I  also subscribe to this theory. It is the ultimate integration of WCM into popular music (songs). One of the reasons that I think Rahman is compared to MSV or earlier composers, where the tune is 99% of the song (that is why I think ARR is 'old school') . In IR's case, it is divided up between the orchestra and singers almost equally. I have compared this to a sandwich where you have to take a full bite so that all the ingredients mix together and will you a new taste. Somebody should write a book or article on "how to listen to IR" . I do have a book like that for Mozart.

From our now-famous spreadsheet ("raw material"), I've filtered and found that more than 140 - yes, more than ONE HUNDRED AND FORTY - individuals have contributed pAdal varigaL / lyrics to rAsA songs!

I guess this could be an unique record for a composer!

People boast so much about introducing singers (IR is not stranger in that aspect either).

However, here we see him simply batting in one end, rotating 140+ fellows in the other end of the wicket

Some 146 names here:

A.Maruthakasi	J.Francis Kiruba	Narsinh Mehta	Sri Vennela Seetharama Shastry
A.Pavunraj	Jaladhi	O.N.V.Kurup	SriRamakrishna
Abirami Pattar	Jayakanthan	P.B.Srinivas	Subramaniya Bharathiyar
Ahathiyan	Jibananda Das	Pa.Vijay	Sumathy Ram
Alangudi Somu	Jonnavithula Ramalingeswara Rao	Panchu Arunachalam	Thamarai
Anantha Sreeram	K.A.Gunasekar	Parinaman	Thanigai Selvan
Andal	K.Kalyan	Parthi Bhaskar	thEn mozhiyAzh
Arivumathi	K.N.Singaram	Pavalar Varadharajan	Thirupathooran
Arudra	K.S.Gopalakrishnan	Pazhani Bharathi	Thyagaraja SwamigaL
Arunagirinathar	K.Senthilkumaran	Piraisoodan	Traditional
Athreya	Kaadhalmathi	Piyush Mishra	Udayashankar
Avinasimani	Kabilan	Ponnadiyan	Usha
Avvaiyar	Kadhalmathi	Ponnaruvi	Uthukaadu Venkata Subbaiyer
Barathy Kannan	Kaithapram	Poovachal Khadar	V.Nagendra Prasad
Barathydasan	Kalaivanan Kannadasan	Poovai Sengkuttuvan	Vaali
Bhagyanathan	Kalimuthu	Prem Dhawan	Vairamuthu
Bhakim Chattarji	Kamakodiyan	Pulamai Pithhan	Valampuri John
Brij Bihari	Kamalhasan	Pulavar Maari	Vamsy
C.N.Muthu	Kandikonda	Purandara Dasa	Vasan
Chidambaranathan	Kanmani Subbu	Purasai Thambiran	Vayalar Sarath Chandra Varma
Chinna Konar	Kannadasan	Puratchidasan	Vennelakanti
Devulapalli Krishnasastri	Kasthuriraja	R.Karunanithi	Veturi
Dr.C.Narayana Reddy	Kathaka Thirumavalavan	R.Ramu	Viji Manuel
Dr.Dassarathi	Kaviraj	R.V.Udhayakumar	Vishali Kannadasan
Dr.Kalyan	Kosaraju	Rafeeq Ahamed	Yoga Mohan
Dr.Pavithran	Kuruvikarambai Shanmugam	Rajasri	Yugabarathy
Farooq Kaiser	M.G.Vallaban	Ramalinga Adigalar
G.K.Murthi	M.Jeevan	Ravi Barathy
Gaanakoothan	M.V.Gopalram	S.Janaki
Gajendra Ahire	Madhukoor Kannan	S.N.Ravi
Ganeh Punoor	Mankombu Gopalakrishnan	Sameer
Gangai Amaran	Manoj Tapadia	Santosh
Girish Puthenchery	Mayil	Shanmuga Panchu
Gopi	Mu.Karunanithi	Shanmugam Muthuraj
Hariram	Mu.Metha	Sirpy
Idhayachandran	Muthukoothan	Sivagama Sundari
Ilaiyabarathy	Muthulingam	Sivakumar
ilaiyaRaaja	Muthuswami Dhikshitar	Snehan
Ilanthevan	Na.Kamarasan	Sreekumaran Thambi
Ingur Sethupathi	Na.Muthukumar	Sri Sri

BTW, Mr ManickavAsakar is not in the above list

I recently watched the making of enga pona rasa on youtube and am tempted to discuss it.



To me, it seems like ARR lays out a melody and suggests some chords and the guitarist takes it from there and improvises. In fact, if you notice, at one point, ARR asks the guitarist (couldn't catch his name) why he uses a capo to which he replies that it is to make the open strings ring which would not otherwise be possible for that particular chord in the key. I reiterate again that it is not an easy task to write music for an instrument one is unfamiliar with and WCM composers undergo years of training in conservatories studying instrumentation and orchestration to learn this, among other things.

From other videos I have seen and articles I have read, it appears that much of ARR's interludes and harmonization (where he uses real instruments as opposed to synth and loops) is the result of jamming sessions with other musicians. In this respect, it is not too different from the way a classic rock band operates and it is probably the way most composers work these days. So, the music we hear is actually the result of teamwork and this is probably one of the reasons ARR includes the names of the instrumentalists on the album covers.

Now, from what SPB, Uttam Singh, Pt. Baalesh and other musicians in his orchestra say, Ilayaraja not only writes the individual parts for each musician, but also tells them how to play it, suggests fingerings and decides the tone. Was it one of the trumpet players who said in an interview that he would sometimes challenge the musicians on the way to play their own parts and not once was he wrong?! Now, THAT is genius. Indians have a tendency to obscure the meanings of superlatives by overusing them. This diminishes the import of the words and dumbs down society. When every semi-talented person in the country is referred to as a genius, it is important to step back and remind ourselves what the word actually means.

I don't mean to belittle ARR here, hell I love many of his songs. What I am trying to convey is that he often depends on other musicians for his output, particularly the instrumental sections and harmony. Coming to harmony, there are several ways to harmonize a melody and  one can get an idea of the imagination of a composer in the way this is handled. From what I have heard and can recall, ARR's arrangements are usually elementary (Counter-examples welcome). To take a recent song, "Nenjukkulle" which people raved about for its use of an orchestra, notice that the string section harmony is pretty static, doing little more than playing standard chords over the melody. Contrast this, to take another recent example, the turbulent arrangements in "Satru munbu" where the string section is extraordinarily dynamic, and NOT JUST IN THE INTERLUDES.

fring151 wrote:Indians have a tendency to obscure the meanings of superlatives by overusing them.

Contrast this, to take another recent example, the turbulent arrangements in "Satru munbu" where the string section is extraordinarily dynamic, and NOT JUST IN THE INTERLUDES.

Not just Indians Fring, not just Indians

http://www.edgemagazine.org/the-music-of-a-r-rahman-an-interview-with-matt-dunkley.html

As for your next point, strip an IR song off its lead melody, you'll have a very dynamic orchestral score matching it blow for blow.

https://t.co/FWIKeNGuUW

Not just Indians Fring, not just Indians

http://www.edgemagazine.org/the-music-of-a-r-rahman-an-interview-with-matt-dunkley.html

That interview is likely to make even HCARRFs fans blush. I wonder what they have to say about it. Any feedback from tuitter? Please don't tell me they cite this to bolster ARR's credibility as a great composer for the orchestra. Come to think of it, I can't recall a single ARR song or score that uses the full palette of the string section, much less a symphony orchestra. And I am pretty sure the symphonic arrangement of the scores will be done by the conductor and not by ARR himself.