Hindi film music - Old is Gold

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  counterpoint on Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:48 am

crimson king wrote:Def, IR has been very forthcoming in acknowledging his debt to HFM but perhaps because his audience is mainly from the South, it is not highlighted enough. 
Iam not too sure about that. In quite a few concerts and TV shows the inspiration for songs such as Inji idupzhage and the likes have been mentioned by IR/SPB themselves. IR had heard old HFM inside out and had it all internalized. By his own admission a song like Maalyail yaaro happened to him when he had khilte hain gul yaahan running throug his mind, although the inspiration is not at all apparent. Pon vaanam panner thoovudhu has a possible inspiration as megha chaaye aadhi raat from Sharmilee. Talking of which IR is a huge SDB fan and had internalized most of SDB's compositions. There was  aclipping on internet sometime back froma live concert in Kerala long time back in which SPB/IR discuss bayya na daro by madan Mohan on stage and SPB describes how intricate the composition was.

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  crimson king on Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:25 am

Yes, they have done that a few times.  Even in NEPV launch, IR gave a beautiful example of the similarity between Pardesi, Mai Re and Paal Irukkum, to demonstrate how the links go further back in time.  But I don't know to what extent audience can relate to that.  If they are not very familiar with all those songs or the respective composers' styles, it's just an interesting nugget and nothing more.  In fact, ironically, IR is often presented as the saviour of TFM from the HFM scourge.  Which is undeniable but fact is he himself held these senior composers, including RDB, in high esteem and does not even like to talk of himself on the same plane as them (though in my mind and I am sure many of his fans, he is on a different plane altogether  Smile ).

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  fring151 on Tue Jun 03, 2014 8:03 am

Watch from 18:30 onwards to see IR describe how SDB composes, given a situation.


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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  crimson king on Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:21 pm

^^ Superb!  Shows the depth in which SDB wanted to visualise the whole scene before composing.  Can't really compare that with today's times.  Movies as such were more lyrical and romantic - SDB and Shailendra apparently spent a  night gazing at the moon when they conceptualised Khoya Khoya Chand - while today it's "seedhe point pe aao na".

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  crimson king on Thu Jun 19, 2014 6:22 pm

MM's magnum opus.  If Mere Mehboob is tranquil and calm, Rang Aur Noor is violent and dramatic.  In both cases, Rafi excels in equal measure.


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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  fring151 on Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:41 am

Another immortal MM. Mesmerising, intoxicating, soothing. As great a tunesmith as any in IFM.


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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  crimson king on Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:57 am

One of his finest.  Mera Saaya as such was one of his best soundtracks, with one of the two more mediocre tracks from the album also going on to become one of his biggest hits!

They played this yesterday on the radio.  Yet another of innumerable great Rafi solos.  Not a particularly great tune but Rafi's midas touch does the trick.




...and the line "mujhe tum yaad aaye" has a near identical melody as the "mera geeth amar karlo" refrain sung by Jagjit Singh years later.  Razz

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  Drunkenmunk on Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:05 am

Most lovely song Fring! Mention of Rafi takes me to this lovely from OP Nayyar. Just what a tune! Limited composer yes, but simbly super this one is. And Rafi whataman!


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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  crimson king on Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:07 am

Yeah, lovely tune.  OP's interludes often marred the tunes with how predictable and even tame they were (compare the verse of Aao Huzoor with the polite piano interlude).  But he just had this knack of coming up with foot tapping, catchy tunes and married them to elegant arrangements.

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  fring151 on Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:19 am

crimson king wrote:One of his finest.  Mera Saaya as such was one of his best soundtracks, with one of the two more mediocre tracks from the album also going on to become one of his biggest hits!

They played this yesterday on the radio.  Yet another of innumerable great Rafi solos.  Not a particularly great tune but Rafi's midas touch does the trick.




...and the line "mujhe tum yaad aaye" has a near identical melody as the "mera geeth amar karlo" refrain sung by Jagjit Singh years later.  Razz

Lovely!! Another MM-Rafi I happened to hear (below). With such songs, I have no hesitation in rating MM right up there with IR as among the greatest tunesmiths in IFM and Rafi as arguably the greatest singer in IFM along with with SPB and KJY (though I would raise no objection if someone rated one of these three above all others). So, take that you bleeding neetrals and #maniacs who proclaim ARR the greatest without even having heard any other real music in TFM let alone IFM.

Edit: In case some neetral objects, I haven't heard much non-Hindi IFM, so I will gladly and humbly refrain from rating or comparing Ghantashala et.al with those I know.



Last edited by fring151 on Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  Drunkenmunk on Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:25 am

The song CK linked is a lullaby. Not an outstanding tune yes. But it does what it should. Lilt. And Rafi does the rest. One thing I find the maniacs don't get is that the music director should service the needs of the situation first in cinema. Satisfying your ears ellaam apparam dhaan enna porutha varaikkin. Each MD enna private band'a to ensure every song pleases everyone who listens? In Gounder's parlance, appadi patta karumAndharamE enakku vENdAm.

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  crimson king on Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:29 am

As much as I am a diehard fan of MM, I would hesitate a bit to rank him, even for tunes alone, up with IR.  It's a tough call.  MM was clearly focused on certain ghazal/semi classical sensibilities and in that he was unassailable.  I don't think even the best compositions in that niche of Naushad, Roshan, SJ, Salil or IR could be claimed to be better by a wide margin.  But of those, SJ and IR especially and Salil to some extent were versatile and covered wider ground.  As Newton said of standing on the shoulders of giants like Galileo and Copernicus, same can be said for IR.  He learnt well from all these composers and rolled the best elements of their styles together AND brought to it his own unique insight into how Indian and Western can combine.  

On the topic of singers, I have no hesitation in crowning Rafi the greatest.  I think revisionism by Kishore gumbals has done a good job of obfuscating just how wide Rafi's repertoire was at his peak.  He could sing these ghazals, he could sing sugary sweet romantic solos and duets, he could sing semi classical/qawali too and lastly, he in fact was the preferred choice for macho, masculine fast paced numbers before he slowed down in the late 60s and Kishore took over.  He sang songs like Mast Baharon which are every bit as masculine as Kishore, just a lot smoother and refined because of his superior technique.  The one singer who came close to matching him for voice and versatility is SPB.  But his voice is a bit heavier and rougher than Rafi's and in classical based songs, I think he sounds a tad less comfortable than Rafi.  You can see in classical or heavy gamakam based duets like Thedum kanpaarvai or Idhazhil Kadhai, he underplays and lets the female singer dominate while Rafi used to be all over Lata and Asha.  And that says a LOT because both Lata and Asha were technically outstanding to say the least.  SPB can do all those brigas but Rafi just executes them with still more effortlessness.  Of course, if somebody does feel SPB is better, I won't grudge them that opinion either as at that level, it's hard to compare and they are all great in their own ways.

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  crimson king on Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:29 am

Drunkenmunk wrote:The song CK linked is a lullaby. Not an outstanding tune yes. But it does what it should. Lilt. And Rafi does the rest. One thing I find the maniacs don't get is that the music director should service the needs of the situation first in cinema. Satisfying your ears ellaam apparam dhaan enna porutha varaikkin. Each MD enna private band'a to ensure every song pleases everyone who listens? In Gounder's parlance, appadi patta karumAndharamE enakku vENdAm.

Yes, no doubt, LP's song was very apt for the situation. LP were actually very good, even great at times, up to early 70s.  After that, ahem, ahem...

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  fring151 on Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:48 am

crimson king wrote:As much as I am a diehard fan of MM, I would hesitate a bit to rank him, even for tunes alone, up with IR.  It's a tough call.  MM was clearly focused on certain ghazal/semi classical sensibilities and in that he was unassailable.  I don't think even the best compositions in that niche of Naushad, Roshan, SJ, Salil or IR could be claimed to be better by a wide margin.  But of those, SJ and IR especially and Salil to some extent were versatile and covered wider ground.  As Newton said of standing on the shoulders of giants like Galileo and Copernicus, same can be said for IR.  He learnt well from all these composers and rolled the best elements of their styles together AND brought to it his own unique insight into how Indian and Western can combine.  

On the topic of singers, I have no hesitation in crowning Rafi the greatest.  I think revisionism by Kishore gumbals has done a good job of obfuscating just how wide Rafi's repertoire was at his peak.  He could sing these ghazals, he could sing sugary sweet romantic solos and duets, he could sing semi classical/qawali too and lastly, he in fact was the preferred choice for macho, masculine fast paced numbers before he slowed down in the late 60s and Kishore took over.  He sang songs like Mast Baharon which are every bit as masculine as Kishore, just a lot smoother and refined because of his superior technique.  The one singer who came close to matching him for voice and versatility is SPB.  But his voice is a bit heavier and rougher than Rafi's and in classical based songs, I think he sounds a tad less comfortable than Rafi.  You can see in classical or heavy gamakam based duets like Thedum kanpaarvai or Idhazhil Kadhai, he underplays and lets the female singer dominate while Rafi used to be all over Lata and Asha.  And that says a LOT because both Lata and Asha were technically outstanding to say the least.  SPB can do all those brigas but Rafi just executes them with still more effortlessness.  Of course, if somebody does feel SPB is better, I won't grudge them that opinion either as at that level, it's hard to compare and they are all great in their own ways.

True, MM from what I have heard so far seems to have carved a semi-classical/ghazal niche for himself. If we take versatility into account, IR likely surpasses the rest. Not just because of his ability to compose jazz or western melodies but also  the incredibly complex rhythm patterns he came up with! Which is another reason why SPB/KJY could stake a decent claim to be among the greatest vocalists - just the incredible variety and complexity of rhythm patterns they had to handle with IR's compositions...

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  crimson king on Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:46 pm

Another Rafi gem.  This was on an old tape my father had, which was what I used to listen to a lot when I first began to listen properly to Rafi songs in, um, 5th standard or so.



And just as we talk about how Ilayaraja songs lit up flop films and have remained memorable long after the films were forgotten, so too Rafi immortalised songs sadly buried in flop films such as this one.  Comedian Mehmood in the lead, was probably a non starter from inception.

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  crimson king on Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:48 pm

And as I am discovering today only  Razz, same film also had Maine Rakha Hai Mohabbat, also from the tape I referred to.



Though music sounds a lot like SJ, it is in fact Usha Khanna.

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  V_S on Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:18 pm

I always love roots of Bollywood (1930s and 40s). The tone, the setting, the infancy into filmdom, we can feel how the child literally grows through those compositions.  I was listening to Noorjehan's classics from this Collection (http://www.rhythmhouse.in/Detail.aspx?productListing=101973). She is one of my all time favorite singers. A striking, rustic and innocent voice with full of soul. While I was completely enamored by this collection, I was continuously humming this song from my subconscious. So additive, full of raw and unadulterated love in her rendition.

The best part about this song apart from her singing is the arrangements that too way back in 1945. Normally strings don't play during vocals that time, but I was surprised to hear how the string section was arranged beautifully to complement the vocals. Music director was K Dutta. Exceptional lyrics by Zia Sarhadi. Film: Badi Maa (1945). Here it is, aa intezaar hai tera.


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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  Drunkenmunk on Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:29 pm

I am one of those guys who doesn't rate Laxmikant Pyarelal very highly to the pedestal of say a Madan Mohan, SDB or Salil da. But the more I hear of their 60s work, especially early 60s, I have to admit they did have stuff and I should say I was lightly surprised to read IR rate them with the pantheon in his autobio, Paal Nila Paadhai. But maybe he was speaking on their 60s output and I have to admit that His Master's Voice never goes wrong w.r.t musical appraisal Razz

Came across this song today. I was on the comp and Vivid Bharati (mom's favorite) was playing this as their series on Rafi. Just the tune took me to incredible memories during my MS in Gainesville and the rainy days there. For no apparent reason! I paid closer attention to the song. The song is Woh Jab Yaad Aaye Bahut Yaad Aaye! Smile Well, I admit I have opened a bit of my space for LP from the 60s after this Smile



What a song!

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  crimson king on Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:27 am

LP had a few great scores in the 60s, no doubt:  Parasmani, Dosti, Milan, Aaye Din Bahar Ke, Mere Hamdam Mere Dost etc.

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  fring151 on Sat Aug 02, 2014 3:45 am

drunkenmunk wrote:I am one of those guys who doesn't rate Laxmikant Pyarelal very highly to the pedestal of say a Madan Mohan, SDB or Salil da. But the more I hear of their 60s work, especially early 60s, I have to admit they did have stuff and I should say I was lightly surprised to read IR rate them with the pantheon in his autobio, Paal Nila Paadhai. But maybe he was speaking on their 60s output and I have to admit that His Master's Voice never goes wrong w.r.t musical appraisal 

Who are the other artists/composers that find special mention in the book and what specifically does he praise them for? (In any category - HFM, TFM, Indian, Western, CCM, WCM). If you could copy relevant passages, would greatly appreciate it. I know it's not a simple copy paste job and you have to copy-type it out from the book. So, at your leisure, as and when you get time, if you get time  Smile

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  Drunkenmunk on Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:17 am

fring151 wrote:

Who are the other artists/composers that find special mention in the book and what specifically does he praise them for? (In any category - HFM, TFM, Indian, Western, CCM, WCM). If you could copy relevant passages, would greatly appreciate it. I know it's not a simple copy paste job and you have to copy-type it out from the book. So, at your leisure, as and when you get time, if you get time  Smile

Sure. Today is a holiday and I don't do anything at home. So here goes,

மேலோர் மேலோரே
இந்திய திரையிசை உலகச் சரித்திரத்தில் திரு. நௌஷாத் அவர்கள் முக்கியமான ஒரு இடத்தை வகிப்பவராவார்!

எனக்கு பிடித்த இசையமைப்பாளர்களில் தென்னிந்தியாவில் உயர்திரு. C.R. சுப்புராமன் அவர்கள் மிகவும் முதன்மையானவர், அடுத்து நல்ல இசை யாரிடமிருந்து வருகிறதென்றாலும், அவர்கள் எல்லோரையும் பிடிக்குமென்றாலும், M.S.V. அவர்களை மிகவும் பிடிக்கும்.

C.R. சுப்புராமன் அவர்கள் கர்நாடக சங்கீத மேடையிலிருந்து, திரை உலகிற்கு வந்து கொண்டிருந்த அந்த காலத்தில் (மணமகள் எனும் படத்தில்) சினிமா பாடலை கர்நாடக இசைக் கச்சேரி தோறும் பாடி ஆகவேண்டும் என்ற கட்டாயத்தை தந்து திரைப்பாடலுக்கு சங்கீத அழுத்தம் கொடுத்து, அதற்கு ஒரு தனி அந்தஸ்தும், மரியாதையும் வரும் அளவிற்குப் படைப்பின் தரத்தை உயர்த்தியவர்!

அவருடைய ஒரு குறிப்பிட்ட பாணியில் வெளியான பாடல்கள் எனக்கு மிகவும் பிடித்தமானவை.

ஆனால் அது பிற்காலத்தில் திரு. நௌஷாத் அவர்களின் பாணியின் பின்பற்றல் என்பது தெரிந்தபோது, அது அப்படியே அசல் பின்பற்றல் அல்லாது தன்னுடைய தனித்தன்மையையும் விடாது அமைத்திருந்த விதத்தில் ஆச்சர்யப்பட்டேன்! அதன் பின் திரு. நௌஷாத் அவர்கள் மீது எனக்கிருந்த மரியாதை மிகவும் அதிகமாயிற்று!

வட இந்தியாவிலிருந்த இசையமைப்பாளர்கள் அந்தக் கால கட்டத்தில் அத்தனைப்பேருமே தங்களுக்கென்று வேறு வேறு பாணியில் சிறப்பான தனித்தன்மையோடு விளங்கியவர்கள்.

திரு. நௌஷாத் வருவதற்கு முன்பு இருந்த முன்னோடிகளான திரு. கேம்ச்சந்திரபிரகாஷ், திருவாளர்கள் ஹன்ஸ்லால் பகத்ராம் (இவரிடம் நௌஷாத் பியானோ வாசிப்பாளராக இருந்திருக்கிறார்). இவர்கள் மூவரும் இந்திய திரை இசையின் அடிப்படையை வகுத்தவர்கள் எனக் குறிப்பிட்டே ஆகவேண்டும்.

திரு. C. ராமச்சந்திரா (இவரிடம் S.D. பரமன் உதவியாளராக இருந்திருக்கிறார்), மதன் மோஹன், சலில் சௌதுரி, S.D. பரமன், ரோஷன், ஷங்கர் ஜெய்கிஷன், O.P. நய்யார், வசந்த்தேசாய், லஷ்மிகாந்த் ப்யாரேலால், R.D. பரமன் என்று அத்தனை பேரும் தனித் தன்மையோடு ஒருவர் பாணியை இன்னொருவர் பின்பற்றாமல், இசையின் நுணுக்கங்களும், கலையழகும் கொஞ்சமும் குறையாமல் இசையமைத்து வந்திருக்கிறார்கள்.

தற்போது எல்லோருடைய பாணியும் ஒரே மாதிரியாக இருப்பது மிகவும் வருத்தத்திற்குரிய விஷயமாகும்.

அதைவிடுங்கள். திரு. நௌஷாத் அவர்களுடன் ஓரிரண்டு சம்பவங்களைப் பதிந்து வைக்க எண்ணி, கீழே வரும் செய்திகளை எழுதிகிறேன்.

How To Name It? என்ற எனது இசையை வெளியிட்ட பின் திரு. ஹரிபிரசாத் சௌராஷ்யா அவர்களை வைத்து 'Nothing But Wind' என்ற இசையை -- Record செய்திருந்ததால் அதை வெளியிடுவதற்காகத் திரு. நௌஷாத் அவர்களை அழைத்தோம்.

சென்னை அடையார் கேட் ஹோட்டலில் அது வெளியிடப்பட்டது. திரை உலகின் முக்கிய பிரமுகர்களும் திரு. M.S.V., ஹரிபிரசாத் சௌராஷ்யா, உத்தம்சிங் போன்றவர்களும், ஓரளவுக்கு தமிழ் நாட்டின் எல்லா இசையமைப்பாளர்களும் அங்கிருந்தார்கள்.

திரு. நௌஷாத் அவர்கள் புலமை மிக்கவர், அவருடைய பேச்சே கவிதைப்போல் இருக்கும். அவர் ஹிந்தியில் பேசியதை பின்னணி பாடகர் திரு. P.B. ஸ்ரீனிவாஸ் தமிழில் மொழிபெயர்த்துக் கொண்டிருந்தார். ஓர் இடம் வந்தவுடன் P.B. ஸ்ரீனிவாஸ் திகைத்து நின்று விட்டார்.

ஏன் என்று நௌஷாத் அவர்கள் கேட்க -- "என்னால் இதை ஒத்துகொள்ள முடியாது! நான் இதை மொழிபெயர்க்க மாட்டேன்" என்றார் ஸ்ரீனிவாஸ். நௌஷாத் அவர்களோ அவரை விடவில்லை!

No No!
This is my true feeling -
You are a translator -
Please do your duty - என்றார்.

P.B.S. மிகவும் தயங்கித் தயங்கி, இழுத்துப்பேச ஆரம்பித்தார். விஷயம் இது தான்:

"இளையராஜாவிடம் நிறைய விஷயங்கள் இருக்கின்றன. எனக்கு உடல்நிலை சரியாக இருந்து, நேரமும் இருக்குமானால், இந்த இளைஞனிடம் உட்கார்ந்து கற்றுக்கொள்வதற்கு நான் தயங்க மாட்டேன்" என்றார்.

மற்றவர்கள் என்ன நினைத்தார்களோ அறியேன்! ஒன்றுமறியா, இசையென்றால் என்னவென்று அறியாத இந்தப்படிக்காத பட்டிக்காட்டானிடம், இசையைக் கற்றுக் கொள்ளலாம் என்று கூறிய என் முன்னோடிகளில் முக்கியமானவரான திரு. நௌஷாத் அவர்களின் பாராட்டுக்கள் என்னை மேலும் உற்சாகத்தில் ஆழ்த்துவதற்கு பதிலாக சிறிய புழுவாக்கி விட்டது!*

* Unleashing Plum from the older forum after his How To Name It experience in 2012 --> http://www.mayyam.com/talk/showthread.php?8722-Maestro-ilaiyaraaja-news-amp-titbits/page107

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  crimson king on Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:46 pm

It's interesting how much he idolized the older composers.  Because most of them were also self taught and, unlike him, did not write Western notation by themselves.  I think Naushad and Salil Chaudhry had that ability but O P Nayyar and SJ were heavily dependent on arrangers.  I wonder why he often refers to himself as illiterate or untrained.  I am sure he is just saying that in a symbolic sense but perhaps, contrary to the claims of the maniacs, he feels obligated by his own self awareness to be modest about his abilities.  I know that Shankar, by contrast, was pretty boastful and estimated himself rather highly, arguably too highly.

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  Drunkenmunk on Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:07 pm

crimson king wrote:It's interesting how much he idolized the older composers.  Because most of them were also self taught and, unlike him, did not write Western notation by themselves.  I think Naushad and Salil Chaudhry had that ability but O P Nayyar and SJ were heavily dependent on arrangers.  I wonder why he often refers to himself as illiterate or untrained.  I am sure he is just saying that in a symbolic sense but perhaps, contrary to the claims of the maniacs, he feels obligated by his own self awareness to be modest about his abilities.  I know that Shankar, by contrast, was pretty boastful and estimated himself rather highly, arguably too highly.

Naushad used Jerry Amaldev for a good part to orchestrate his melodies. Salil Chaudhry is the only predecessor who *can be* called as complete as IR.

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  crimson king on Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:42 pm

Yes, I was focusing more on the ability to write notes part, which I think he could.  Of course Naushad was not as complete as IR.

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Re: Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Post  Drunkenmunk on Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:41 pm

crimson king wrote:Yes, I was focusing more on the ability to write notes part, which I think he could.  Of course Naushad was not as complete as IR.

Oh you mean western notations? Interesting. A lot of the Indian composers write the notes in Indian swaras. MSV, IR recounts in the same book, could articulate what music he needed from each musician by simply playing the music out from his mouth (IR has played bongo drums iirc for MSV in Malar Edhu En Kangal from Avalukkendru Oru Manam). Of course, you could improvise if you found what he gave you was tough as long as it did not affect the flow/vision of his composition or elevated it to his satisfaction. He simply could not write it down since he was not trained and his assts (Joseph Krishna and Henry Daniel) helped him out there but he had an organic idea of how to compose and orchestrate. Of course, a great tunesmith. Again, only not as complete as IR is.

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