Re: Rudramma Devi

**plum** Fri Jun 05, 2015 6:13 pm

kiru wrote:Well, I also (even though my opinion is not that valid, thanks to music ignorance) feel there is not much distinction between various hindi MDs in the compilations I have. To be fair, I'd think even IR's music is not absolutely unique from a high level. He might have his own style of tune and orchestration but the song in structure and concept is not very different from other MDs of the past. It is all basically founded on the idea of using the orchestra (mostly strings) to add harmony/grandeur to the monophonic indian melody. Later, chords and basslines were added to add more 'body' to the sound. Atleast, this is my understanding. I remember reading it was one English guy who goaded our musicians to use strings so that it will sound good (grand) with the big screen (dont remember the name). That is why I consider 'Indian Film Music' as a genre and credit IR to taking this to its pinnacle (and amazing it is still a WIP for IR, it looks).

crimson king Fri Jun 05, 2015 7:32 pm

kiru wrote:Well, I also (even though my opinion is not that valid, thanks to music ignorance) feel there is not much distinction between various hindi MDs in the compilations I have. To be fair, I'd think even IR's music is not absolutely unique from a high level. He might have his own style of tune and orchestration but the song in structure and concept is not very different from other MDs of the past. It is all basically founded on the idea of using the orchestra (mostly strings) to add harmony/grandeur to the monophonic indian melody. Later, chords and basslines were added to add more 'body' to the sound. Atleast, this is my understanding. I remember reading it was one English guy who goaded our musicians to use strings so that it will sound good (grand) with the big screen (dont remember the name). That is why I consider 'Indian Film Music' as a genre and credit IR to taking this to its pinnacle (and amazing it is still a WIP for IR, it looks).

I agree with this from the IFM perspective. Not just using the same pallavi-charanam/mukda-antara format but the patterns IR used to develop vocal melody in the stanzas were also along the lines of his predecessors. His selections may have been different but the underlying logic was the same and based in the same foundation. From the Western perspective, no, IR represents a clean break. He was the first (and possibly the last?) to combine a distinct approach to the raga system as used in IFM with a distinct harmonic voice that is uniquely and recognisably his. When I say harmonic voice, I basically mean that from the chords you can make out it is Raja. You don't even need the vocal melody or scores of violins blaring together to know, just playing the chords on a piano will suffice. Just like the great songwriters of the West like Paul McCartney or Stevie Wonder...rather, a higher level than that (but it would then get difficult for me to name names that would be recognised in India). IR totally gets Western music. 'Getting' Western music isn't so much about the ability to write a score all by himself. That is a technician's job, however commendable it may be that IR could do that. IR knows how to express himself, speak in his own voice in the Western vocabulary. None of his predecessors, not even Salil Chowdhry, could claim to have achieved that. They were, along the lines you described, simply taking an Indian core and adding Western embellishment to it. Salil did it in a more 'educated' manner than his peers. But that's not what IR does, though he is brilliant at disguising his work such that it would appear to be so at the surface (and was thus easily embraced by the masses in the 70s and 80s). It is incredibly difficult to tell with IR which comes first, the Indian core or the Western core, and this is compounded by his claims that they are one and the same to him. However it may be, he basically writes two songs, an Indian vocal melody and a Western chord progression, and then somehow puts them together such that they blend seamlessly.

kiru Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:50 am

@CK - would love to hear your analysis of IR's usage of bassline/chords or any harmony techniques. After you/others discussing Naushad I took a few days of listening to him. One thing I realized was, even those days, I could discern a Western character to the interludes but the vocals (pallavi/charanam) were carefully left mostly indian. This is also how IR handled things for a long time.
Re: chords - I know one amateur composer in tfmpage complaining that IR starts from chords and so it cannot be a 'real' tune ('real' == indian tune). But the same set of people are happy in claiming that Rahman starts with a bassline. And then some people saying there are not much chords in IR's music (in the context of why he was not popular in Hindi). These were all old arguments (probably 10 yrs old). Today ie, post NEPV I am convinced personally IR's music is the most musically dense. Love to hear your thoughts here.

crimson king Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:34 am

The interludes are quite Westernised indeed in some Naushad songs. I do not know if you have heard Husn e Jaana from his last noteworthy soundtrack Saathi. Great interludes.

What they didn't do was to give an independent role to harmony as the vocals are being rendered. Which is how it works in Western music of course. There are actually old Hindi songs with guitar chords but they are totally subservient to the melody and would not have any bearing on the composition if you subtracted them. As a quick comparison, here's Raath ke Humsafar by Shankar Jaikishan:

And now here's Hey Jude by the Beatles:

Hey Jude is a pretty well formed melody so that it wouldn't sound too awkward to sing it sans accompaniment. But it clearly requires the underlying piano chords to complete the song. In more complex songs, it would sound downright clumsy due to complex chord changes.

IR works with both the Hey Jude philosophy (more so in urbanised songs) and Raath Ke Humsafar approach (more so in folk songs); but this classification is not hard and fast! Raja Raja Cholan is a good example of the former. After Poove Kadhal...line, to jump to Manmeedhu without any music in the background would be very awkward. It almost feels like stopping and starting the song all over but in the composition, there are chords playing in that gap which then resolve and let the vocalist proceed. Kannan Vandhu is another song with lovely chords. There are so many of them and he uses harmony with a variety that is mindboggling. Rojapoo Adivanthathu has one guitar track that seems to be closely following the vocals, interjecting on every syllable but parallel to that is operating another track of guitar chords that is more intricate. None of this would be unprecedented from a Western context though they would sit up and take note of this songwriter who is showing great imagination in harmony. From an Indian context, certainly nobody came close.

If we talk about basslines, bass can be used both to provide rhythm and as a harmonic function. The former approach is favoured in bare basic rock and pop music while the latter more so in jazz and art rock. Here, there's simply no precedent of any kind. Bass wasn't even used in any significant way even rhythmically before R D Burman. But nobody certainly conceived basslines that roam the jungle and back before Raja and nobody else seems to have since then.

Breaking down the chords into notes is a level of analysis that is beyond me but from the little bit of piano I learnt, I can tell complex chords from the typical Indian one note harmony. One note harmony already existed before IFM....in the form of a harmonium petti playing along as the singer sings. I'd say that when the Hindi composers used string harmonies along side vocals, it was more in the form of using violins to play what would have been played by a harmonium. IR finally bridged the gap between our one note harmony and Western harmony while still maintaining Indian vocal melody. Which is why I remarked in the other thread that this 80s approach of total synthesis was more seminal than his current more Westernised approach, though the latter approach is per se very interesting in the hands of a maestro like Raja.

app_engine Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:37 am

-digression from the thread title but may fit in the current discussion -

This 1999 song from the Malayalam movie "Friends" seems somewhat unusual kind from IR, IMHO :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frQiVMkUu-0
(shiva mallippoovE)

Of course, he had done some similar numbers in late 70's & early 80's but otherwise less-indulged, especially from the beginning of synth-percussioned 90's...

All of a sudden in 1999 - that too in a Malayalam movie this number came & I was pleasantly surprised!

Well, those days I would have played this number a 1000 times LOUD at home!

I couldn't believe that the same director dropped this song when the movie was remade in Thamizh Shocked

In any case, with IR, one cannot predict what could come out at any point of time...

-end digression -

app_engine Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:55 am

May be I've developed an "extra" taste for IR's female solos Smile

Such songs seem to push me to keep repeating Embarassed

(shivamallippoove now running for the 10th time or so...very addictive, like punnamippoovAi).

If I pick 100 top songs of rAsA, I'm afraid > 50% will be female solos Laughing

kamalaakarsh Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:15 pm

Shivamallippoove is said to be in Shanmukhapriya raaga. Actually, the treatment in the song (arrangements, emphasis on the percussive aspect) was very different from the ilaiyaraaja known till then. I remember listening to it sometime in 2005 and I was wondering - "whoa, Raaja is indeed adapting his music to the new sound and the current style of music arrangements". That was in 2005. Now when I look back, I see so many nuances that were Raaja's own signatures. Adapt, he did... but with his own style intact.

crimson king Wed Jun 10, 2015 3:20 am

It's a much better effort at adapting his signature to the Raja-lite flavour of Kadhalukku Mariyadhai/Friends. Evoked Vannakuyile in places, very modern sounding for its time but still uniquely IR.

app_engine Thu Jun 11, 2015 7:20 am

Big bud movie so cost recovery itself could be a challenge

In any case, namakku nalla pAttukaL kitti, if BGM is special that should be bonus!

app_engine Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:10 am

rAsA releasing

Look at the English Summary
rotfl

kiru Fri Jun 12, 2015 3:21 am

App is a melody lover and shivamallipoove is one 'avant garde' synth/electronic work. Some body seems to have diagnosed that tabla and strings were what is ailing his work and for a while these two vanished, replaced by electronic drums and sax/similar sounds. They were good but I am happy IR is back with his orchestra to enthrall the audience as "IR 2.0" :-)

As I listen to rudramma devi at a wayside starbucks after getting off the congested freeway, one thing strikes me - If strings were passe, IR instead of throwing it away just added more layers and made the strings more complex. It is paying of much dividends.

I wish IR had done bahubali but a telugu friend tells me that keeravani is rajamouli's relative and hence he got the job. I saw the trailer he seems to have gotten away imitating hollywood bgm scores

kiru Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:01 am

@CK - got your points. Appreciate it. Recently, I have used the equalizer in the car and been listening. I can now tell many ..many tabla songs are actually bass driven or the tabla is just replicating the bass line (or vice versa). Without the bassline, these songs would not have the appeal they do, but we just (at least this ignorant self) think of them as simple tabla songs.

crimson king Fri Jun 12, 2015 5:10 pm

Exactly, on many of those songs, you could remove the tabla or whatever percussion instrument is used and the basslines would still be supplying rhythm...as well as harmony. Chinna chinna vannakuyil, rojavai thalatum thendral are particularly great examples of this.

app_engine Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:22 pm

Vikatan marketing

சென்சாரில் சிக்ஸர் அடித்தது ருத்ரமாதேவி!

இந்திய சினிமா வரலாற்றிலேயே முதல் ஸ்டிரியோகிராஃபிக் 3டி திரைப்படம் இதுவே. குணசேகர் இப்படத்தை இயக்கியிருக்கிறார். அதுமட்டுமில்லாமல் படத்திற்கு இசை இளையராஜா மற்றும் தோட்டாதரணி கலையில் படத்தை தமிழில் தேனாண்டாள் பிலிம்ஸ் வெளியிடுகிறது

app_engine Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:25 pm

One more

Beautiful actress Anushka Shetty’s Rudramadevi trailer was released short while ago. Music Maestro Ilayaraja released the trailer. After watching the trailer, everyone says that this movie is going to be one of the epic films in Indian cinema.

Anushka Shetty looks beautiful in royal costumes. Her dialogue delivery is nice. Stylish star Allu Arjun looks handsome in Gona Ganna Reddy avatar. Ilayaraja music is the soul of the trailer. But a drawback about the trailer is, the battle scenes and animations do not look real. Tehy look unreal..

app_engine Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:37 am

Thamizh Trailer

kiru Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:42 am

I hope this movie does well. I think the failure of movies is restricting the reach of our Maestro's songs. Neither NEPV or MeghA did well at the box office. Not many people know about Megha songs .. what a pity !!

app_engine Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:11 pm

Thamizh lyrics Pa.Vijay

-dig-
Kiru sir,
Looks like the mEghA songs had "some" reach in TN Smile

Even the youtubes had a much-above-average viewership I think

-end dig-

Drunkenmunk Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:18 pm

idhu onnu dhaan korachal.

Release postponed to 30th July to complete 3D works.

app_engine Mon Aug 24, 2015 11:47 pm

Sep 4 release it seems

Beautiful Actress Anushka features Rana and Allu Arjun much anticipated movie is going to be released on September 4th world wide maximum number of Screens. Creative Director Guna Sekhar directed this historical movie and this is the first stereoscopic 3D film in Telugu and it will also dubbed in Tamil, Kannada and Malayalam.

As per latest reports, Ansuhka’s Rudramadevi overseas Rights sold for a Fancy price. Earlier Arundhati made huge openings in abroad with record collections. This is the main reason for this to bagged overseas rights for record price of Rs. 4 crores.

Currently, the makers are busy with post-production works and wrapped up shooting. Expectation on this movie is very high and due to fabulous star cast it reached sky high expectations. Music Maestro Ilayaraja composed the music and already songs got nice response from listeners.

**plum** Fri Aug 28, 2015 5:47 am

app - relax on Rudrama, Guna is a known offender. He is extremely unpopular with Telugu producers, distributors, actors and even film goers. That is why he had to invest all his life savings to produce this movie. He is in a terrible state - which any 10 year old could have predicted before he started.
As of now, postpned to October and one doesnt know whether that date will be met either
While happy for a high quality album for IR, it has come at a great cost due to one man's delusions(Guna thinks he is better than Rajamouli and latter PR-s his way to better recognition). He has a family with 2 little daughters so I hope something works out but it is unlikely to,
This will be a great flop, and I just hope Guna lives to tell the tale for the sake of his family

app_engine Fri Aug 28, 2015 9:29 pm

plum

படம் வெளி வந்து நவீன் மொசார்ட் மாதிரி யாராச்சும் பின்னணி இசையை எடுத்து நெட்டில் போட்டால் போதும் நமக்கு.
(மற்றபடி, வெறும் க்யூரியாசிட்டி ஒன்லி - எவ்வளவு பாத்தாச்சு!)

kiru Sat Aug 29, 2015 3:54 am

plum wrote:app - relax on Rudrama, Guna is a known offender. He is extremely unpopular with Telugu producers, distributors, actors and even film goers. That is why he had to invest all his life savings to produce this movie. He is in a terrible state - which any 10 year old could have predicted before he started.
As of now, postpned to October and one doesnt know whether that date will be met either
While happy for a high quality album for IR, it has come at a great cost due to one man's delusions(Guna thinks he is better than Rajamouli and latter PR-s his way to better recognition). He has a family with 2 little daughters so I hope something works out but it is unlikely to,
This will be a great flop, and I just hope Guna lives to tell the tale for the sake of his family

Oh man .. I feel sorry for this dude. Coming close on the heels of Bahubali could not be a easy thing. I also regret our man's luck. If some of his recent films were bigger hits, IR's work would have been recognized even more.

app_engine Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:02 pm

indhiyA today reporting

In the quest for perfection, Gunasekhar asked 'Master'-as he calls music maestro Ilayaraja-for the background score. And did what he ordered: travel to London to get the 125-piece London Philharmonic Orchestra to record what Gunasekhar calls "an enthralling enrichment".

app_engine Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:16 pm

indhi also it seems

Gunasekhar is also dubbing the film into Hindi and the rights have been bought by Reliance Entertainment and Abhishek pictures for a hefty price. With 'Baahubali', even Bollywood people are looking up to Telugu films and this will be a very good advantage for 'Rudramadevi'.

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