Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

There was another more emphatic article on the internet that I've read on the subject.  Wiki, obviously, is politically correct.

If you read the court order (avoid if you find legal language headache-inducing), it is very unconvincing.  Relies purely on the word of Macmillan's board that they never saw Deeks' manuscript but rejects without explaining reasons why the contention of the witnesses gathered by Deeks.  There is no attempt also to explain how the same omissions could have been made in both works.  

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKPC/1932/1932_66.html

I would not go all the way to emphatically claim that Wells bought out the court with his position and prominence (or that Macmillan did so on his behalf) but suffice it to say it is a distinct possibility and I wouldn't rule it out.

crimson king wrote:Great article.  Always love to read SK's reminiscences.  While we are on that, let me take the liberty to tell you that my father once wrote an article based on listening to MM songs on the radio and connecting it to the progress of one's own life.  It probably got published in some magazine but they never sent us a complimentary copy.     Anyway, dad shared the article with SK.  He liked it so much that he mailed us a CD with the making of Veer Zara as well as tributes to MM, absolutely free. I didn't know that Lata had been so kind to MM's family post his death.  I will warn my father never to go overboard in praising Rafi on the MM facebook page in future.  

Oh nice  . Ya great reminiscnences. This was touching.

When we went on long car drives, dad would tell us to sing a song. Small and unfeeling that we were, we would start singing the songs composed by other music directors. He'd turn around and say, "Hey, even you!" At that time, we couldn't understand what he meant. We wouldn't sing his songs because they weren't easy to sing. That used to hurt him. Even his failmy didn't appreciate him. He started drinking heavily. He died of cirrhosis of the lever. It's not something I'm ashamed of at all. I don't allow this fact to disturb me at all.

And this

The song Aapki nazron ne samjha (Anpadh) was composed by my father in two minutes during the lift journey from the ground floor to the fifth floor of our building. I remember the moment when my father almost in a trance, shut his eyes and started singing to himself. When the lift reached our apartment, he rushed to the harmonium to complete the tune.

The incident with Rais Khan was amazing, in a sad way. Just how sensitive are artistes!

First my reaction to the Viji - Raja issue. 

For a minute let us assume that what Viji says is 100% true. What does that tell us? Viji had contributed to two songs which were not acknowledged. No argument there (assuming it is true ofcourse) The problem comes when Rahman fans extrapolate this and say,'Raja took other inputs in all songs'. So that leap from 2 songs to 5000 songs is the issue. And it is an issue because so many people who have worked with Raja have told publicly how every note that Raja writes is Raja's. Example; The trombone player Blanco, who has no vested interest when he gave the interview - he was no longer working with Raja - said clearly that Raja composed everything unlike R D Burman who jammed with Basu Manohari, Kesri Lord and others and took their inputs in almost all songs. Then there was Uttam Singh saying that he arranged the harmonies for Naushad, C Ramachandra etc and that Raja does everything himself. Then there is Napolean, who in an interview said clearly that while other music directors have arrangers, Raja did everything himself. Music director Sarath who had watched Raja working and later sang for him is on record saying that in Raja's music not just a note, even a quarter note is Raja's. Then there is a Balaesh interview in Solvanam where he states the same thing. There are more examples but this would suffice to show that Raja composed everything himself as a rule. What Noel Grant, Viji Manuel and Prasanna did were more of exceptions. Raja could have taken Prasanna's inputs which is fine but if some Rahman fan wants to extrapolate that everytime Prasanna played for Raja every idea was Prasanna's is where the problem comes in.

Let us look at it from two different angles. One of sheer logistics. When Raja was doing those 50 films a year along with BGM for all of them, where is the time even to collaborate? I mean unlike say Madan Mohan and Riaz Khan, Raja never had the luxury of sitting with someone in his room and then deciding on the arrangement after one day. SPB clearly says that they recorded on song in the morning and one in the afternoon. In such cases there is just no time for collaboration. So whatever 'inputs' came could have been very minor. A small rhythm change here or a small not change here. 

The second perspective is the consistency of musical ideas. Now, with due respects to music directors like Naushad or SJ or MM, when they are out of their comfort zone and hand over the reigns to someone else, a trained listener can easily make out the difference. That is because when they composed the song themselves, they left their stamp on it. When it predominantly done by others, that stamp vanished. Or they just aped another genre without internalizing and putting their stamp on it. Well, you need to just hear Raja's songs to know how his stamp is put on every song. 

In short, this 'everyone contributed to Raja songs also' is a pathetic attempt by Rahman fans to bring Raja down. That will not happen because everyone in the industry knows the truth. There is enough and more confirmation from various people (recorded ones) which clearly state that what Raja did was his own and what Rahman did was always collaboration. This will not change inspite of what Viji Manuel says or what Rahman fans say.

fring151 wrote:Thanks DM. Ya makes this Tamil magazine intree somewhat suspect.

On Lataji, I bumped into this old interview recently. Ridiculous her sense of self-importance!
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/music/news-and-interviews/I-have-a-fierce-temper-Lata-Mangeshkar/articleshow/16538842.cms?referral=PM

Why were you angry with Sachin Dev Burman?
He was quoted in an article saying, "Who made Lata's career? We did. We gave her the songs." I don't know if he was misquoted but we didn't talk for three to four years. Till his son Pancham (R D Burman) mediated. When Burman Sr called, I was still very angry and spoke to him very curtly. Then he said, "Lata, tu aaja, tujhe gana hai" and my anger evaporated. We broke the ice with the song Mora gora ang layee le in Bandini.

THAT IS A FACT. Now this is what is called arrogance, with due respect to her undeniably staggering talent as a singer.

Lata was like Raja in some ways. (I am not comparing their talents here because Lata is a singer and Raja is a composer) I am comparing their attitudes and how they held their own in the industry just due to their talent when they should have actually been swept aside by the powerful enemies they made.

Lata was arrogant alright but then eveyone, almost everyone, came back to her with their tails tucked in. You need to question why? The interview talks about her tiff with Rafi and believe me she was right in her decision regarding the royalties to be given to the singer. Rafi sided with Naushad saying that singers don't need royalties. So Lata made enemies with Rafi and Naushad both. What happened? Both of them came to her finally.

Shankar Jaikishen fell out with her for some reason and I think it was Shankar who promoted a singer called Sharada. What happened? They too came back to her. S D Burman fell out with her and made Suman Kalyanpur sing many songs but he called her later and requested her to sing for RDB. Then there was this famous tiff with Rajkapoor. (I think on the royalty issue only) What happened? Rajkapoor didn't want Lata in his films. What happened? 'Mera Naam Joker' failed, Rajkapoor had to ditch Shankar Jaikishan and go to LP, who said that they would compose for Rajkapoor only if Lata sang and Lata said she would sing if RK agreed to her demands. He did. We are talking THE RAJ KAPOOR here.

So how did Lata achieve such power in HFM? Sheer talent. She was not a produce (She did produce a movie or two and burnt her hands). She had no major figure backing her. She fought with most famous MDs, she fought with Rafi, she fought for royalties against the music directors. So why did they still fall on her feet? Because no one could justice to their songs like Lata did. That is one reason. Secondly her voice had seeped into the consciousness of all HFM listeners that not many had a choice.

(There are two known exceptions. One is O P Nayyar who gave hits without Lata. Then there is this case of Jaidev. For some reason he was not on talking terms with Lata. When Lata came to know that Jaidev had composed an exceptional song and was thinking of calling M S Subbulakshmi to sing it, she called up Jaidev, made up with him and sang the song. The song? From the movie 'Hum Dono', 'Allah Tero Naam, Iswar Tero Naam'.)

crimson king wrote:Ha, not a word about Naushad Ali, about her eternally loyal poodles LP and MM is only mentioned in a less than savoury light.  Typical Lata interview.  At least I appreciate her candour in admitting she's far from perfect because I've heard fans describe her as humble and had a good laugh about it. And I bet she liked singing with Kishore because he didn't always own her in the duets (esp not the semi classical ones like Is Mod where he sounded laboured) unlike Rafi who beat the daylights out of her every time.

She released a list of 25 of her best songs when she completed 25 yrs in the industry. It did not contain a single Anil Biswas song, which to me was a grave injustice. Anil Biswas never forgave her for that it seems. Not mentioning Naushad is fine according to me because her best came under MM, Anil Biswas, Roshan, Salilda. (BTW, Sajjad Hussain is the music director who told Lata when she was recording a song for him, "Don't think this is a Naushad mia's song. You have to put in some effort" )

"unlike Rafi who beat the daylights out of her every time" Not in my books. No one could hit the notes with such precision as Lata. As Bade Ghulam Ali Khan once remarked, "Kambhakth besura kabhi nahin gaathi" Rafi as a singer was nowhere close to Lata in perfection.


Here is the rather unforgiving Rajan Parrikar about Lata:

Er, with due respect, do we really know that Rafi came to her only due to financial pressure and not because he was simply much more big hearted?  Rafi also fell out with people but there's almost no case where he held onto grudges.  He patched up and moved on.  So just because Lata used her clout and stood her ground on royalties makes it right?  So let's say you design a computer program all by yourself and get somebody to make a 1000 handwritten copies of that?  If that somebody, in spite of getting paid for the task, wants royalties, he is right?  On what kind of legal principle is it all justified for a singer to claim royalties?  

And by the by, Rafi sang several duets with Suman Kalyanpur during the period of the feud and many of those became hits and are well remembered to this day.  Aise na dekho (Roshan, not SDB), Tumne pukara, Aaj kal tere mere pyaar to name a few.  Unfortunately, Suman's voice was so close to Lata's that people did not notice that they were not actually sung by Lata but that is the fact.  As you have yourself mentioned, OPN got by fine without Lata.  I am sorry if she or her fans think she was comprehensively indispensable because she wasn't and nobody is or has ever been in the history of time.  I don't think IR is even remotely as vain as Lata and I would hate to hear their attitudes compared. Because Lata simply does not have the self awareness to state as IR did to GVM that it is listeners who identified a part of themselves with his songs and not he who had any magic wand to know what they liked.  That is the statement of a true artist.  Lata, on the other hand, was just an entertainer and an ultimate diva and drama queen if ever there was one in HFM.  She should just thank her stars that the music directors, on the other hand, recognised her talent and preferred to attach importance to that rather than her gigantic ego.

Raaga_Suresh wrote:

crimson king wrote:Ha, not a word about Naushad Ali, about her eternally loyal poodles LP and MM is only mentioned in a less than savoury light.  Typical Lata interview.  At least I appreciate her candour in admitting she's far from perfect because I've heard fans describe her as humble and had a good laugh about it. And I bet she liked singing with Kishore because he didn't always own her in the duets (esp not the semi classical ones like Is Mod where he sounded laboured) unlike Rafi who beat the daylights out of her every time.

She released a list of 25 of her best songs when she completed 25 yrs in the industry. It did not contain a single Anil Biswas song, which to me was a grave injustice. Anil Biswas never forgave her for that it seems. Not mentioning Naushad is fine according to me because her best came under MM, Anil Biswas, Roshan, Salilda. (BTW, Sajjad Hussain is the music director who told Lata when she was recording a song for him, "Don't think this is a Naushad mia's song. You have to put in some effort" )

"unlike Rafi who beat the daylights out of her every time" Not in my books. No one could hit the notes with such precision as Lata. As Bade Ghulam Ali Khan once remarked, "Kambhakth besura kabhi nahin gaathi" Rafi as a singer was nowhere close to Lata in perfection.


Here is the rather unforgiving Rajan Parrikar about Lata:

"Kalyan is Lata and Lata is Kalyan.  Not even the classical masters can hope to hold a candle to the magic she conjures in this terrain." : http://www.parrikar.org/hindustani/kalyan/

If you can point to one pitch mistake at all of Rafi's in Dheere Dheere Chal, I would be glad.  Or pitch mistakes in general, for that matter.  Further, film or any other non classical music is not only about hitting notes with metronomical precision (and the popularity of Maria Callas demonstrates that perhaps it is not the case in classical music either).  Expression is of utmost importance.  In expression, Lata simply could not match Rafi in duets.  And the reason for that was she was a stuck up spinster.  She did not love and she did not share her living space with others and hence she could not have possibly understood the joy and passion that a person experiences in that situation. Rafi on the other hand was happily married and understood very well.  He was also not a miserable prude like her.  He was in fact quite sophisticated and far more Westernised than a casual acquaintance with is life would glean.  He had a second home in London and loved big, fat luxury cars.  But, unlike Lata, he never, at least apparently, seemed to think his ability to afford them made him larger than life.

Lata's prudishness is what vacated the cabaret space for her sister.  On the other hand in the 60s, Rafi was open to any and every genre and delivered hits singing semi classical, ghazal and Western.  Versatility is not Lata's forte. She can pretend she just disliked singing those songs but it was basically that her ethereal soprano voice sounded out of place in robust, sensual songs which Asha excelled in a ka Yeh Reshmi Zulfon.

I am not comparing Lata's attitude with Rafi. By all accounts Rafi was indeed a large hearted man. No questions there.

No questions about Lata's ego as well. The only point I wanted to emphasis here is that sheer talent that she possessed was what made people go to her again and again though theoretically they should have thrown her away. In an industry which doesn't care for anyone and has lot of bloated egos, the only reason they went to her was because they felt their success was tied to her voice. 

It was only this 'talent' aspect between Raja and Lata that I wanted to highlight. That both made very powerful enemies and yet survived in a back stabbing industry on their own terms. The comparison ends there.

I wasn't talking about that comparison.  You said her attitude is like IR's and there I disagree.  The only similarity is they both rose up against the odds and despite the best efforts of detractors.  But I don't think, as I said above, that Lata has an ounce of the self awareness IR possesses.  Certainly it is not evident in her interviews and her claim, moreover, that a flyover should not be built as it would spoil her already terrible voice (we're talking early noughties here) reveals her ridiculous sense of self importance.  And because of the stand she took on royalties, she found it beneath her ego to acknowledge her debt to composers.  On the other hand, IR very graciously thanked and praised his musicians at thiruvanamaalai.  In summary, I would say IR still seems to remember that he was once a nobody from pannaipuram and that ashes to ashes and dust to dust is the rule of life whereas I am not sure about that in Lata's case.  I think she lost her simplicity somewhere down the line though she has carefully cultivated a public image of simplicity and austerity.

crimson king wrote:

Raaga_Suresh wrote:

crimson king wrote:Ha, not a word about Naushad Ali, about her eternally loyal poodles LP and MM is only mentioned in a less than savoury light.  Typical Lata interview.  At least I appreciate her candour in admitting she's far from perfect because I've heard fans describe her as humble and had a good laugh about it. And I bet she liked singing with Kishore because he didn't always own her in the duets (esp not the semi classical ones like Is Mod where he sounded laboured) unlike Rafi who beat the daylights out of her every time.

She released a list of 25 of her best songs when she completed 25 yrs in the industry. It did not contain a single Anil Biswas song, which to me was a grave injustice. Anil Biswas never forgave her for that it seems. Not mentioning Naushad is fine according to me because her best came under MM, Anil Biswas, Roshan, Salilda. (BTW, Sajjad Hussain is the music director who told Lata when she was recording a song for him, "Don't think this is a Naushad mia's song. You have to put in some effort" )

"unlike Rafi who beat the daylights out of her every time" Not in my books. No one could hit the notes with such precision as Lata. As Bade Ghulam Ali Khan once remarked, "Kambhakth besura kabhi nahin gaathi" Rafi as a singer was nowhere close to Lata in perfection.


Here is the rather unforgiving Rajan Parrikar about Lata:

"Kalyan is Lata and Lata is Kalyan.  Not even the classical masters can hope to hold a candle to the magic she conjures in this terrain." : http://www.parrikar.org/hindustani/kalyan/

If you can point to one pitch mistake at all of Rafi's in Dheere Dheere Chal, I would be glad.  Or pitch mistakes in general, for that matter.  Further, film or any other non classical music is not only about hitting notes with metronomical precision (and the popularity of Maria Callas demonstrates that perhaps it is not the case in classical music either).  Expression is of utmost importance.  In expression, Lata simply could not match Rafi in duets.  And the reason for that was she was a stuck up spinster.  She did not love and she did not share her living space with others and hence she could not have possibly understood the joy and passion that a person experiences in that situation. Rafi on the other hand was happily married and understood very well.  He was also not a miserable prude like her.  He was in fact quite sophisticated and far more Westernised than a casual acquaintance with is life would glean.  He had a second home in London and loved big, fat luxury cars.  But, unlike Lata, he never, at least apparently, seemed to think his ability to afford them made him larger than life.

Lata's prudishness is what vacated the cabaret space for her sister.  On the other hand in the 60s, Rafi was open to any and every genre and delivered hits singing semi classical, ghazal and Western.  Versatility is not Lata's forte. She can pretend she just disliked singing those songs but it was basically that her ethereal soprano voice sounded out of place in robust, sensual songs which Asha excelled in a ka Yeh Reshmi Zulfon.

I don't want to get into the personal psycho analysis space here.

I can't stand Rafi in many songs. He is not my favorite singer. So that debate will also take a long time

On the other hand, I fully agree about the emotion part. Lata's singing concentrated more on the notes, hitting the notes perfectly (generally in film music we don't see singers going besura but Lata was close to perfection in this aspect. Not in her later years though) and making it sound melodious. You can hear that in 'mud mud ke na dhek'. The spring in the step is lesser than what it should be for the song but it is very melodious. It is this melody that everyone came to her for.

Raaga_Suresh wrote:I am not comparing Lata's attitude with Rafi. By all accounts Rafi was indeed a large hearted man. No questions there.

No questions about Lata's ego as well. The only point I wanted to emphasis here is that sheer talent that she possessed was what made people go to her again and again though theoretically they should have thrown her away. In an industry which doesn't care for anyone and has lot of bloated egos, the only reason they went to her was because they felt their success was tied to her voice. 

It was only this 'talent' aspect between Raja and Lata that I wanted to highlight. That both made very powerful enemies and yet survived in a back stabbing industry on their own terms. The comparison ends there.

  Was that really the case or was she opportunistic in exploiting situations of weaknesses to get back into the game (e.g Bobby)?  In all of the 60s, there was hardly any film whose music became popular solely on the strength of her shoulders.  Rafi delivered such soundtracks, Dosti and Aadmi immediately come to mind.  But even in a film with one of her masterpieces like Aaja Re Pardesi, Suhana Safar became a hit in its own right.  That may not necessarily be down to her talent vis a vis the others, it may also be due to cultural factors.  Just as how it is hard to run a film with a heroine having top billing.  But in the 60s Rafi was the hit delivering machine among singers and in the 70s it was Kishore.  Asha was a formidable presence in both decades.  There's nothing to show that a Kati Patang would not have been a hit without Lata singing Na Koi Umang Hai because Kishore had not one but three hits from that film.  I am sorry but with due respect I do think her commercial indispensability is overstated.  I think people were just a little more artistic/idealistic minded at that time and did not want to do without a Lata song in a film just because they loved hearing her voice so much.  It is sad if she derived so much self importance from that simple fact.

crimson king wrote:I wasn't talking about that comparison.  You said her attitude is like IR's and there I disagree.  The only similarity is they both rose up against the odds and despite the best efforts of detractors.  But I don't think, as I said above, that Lata has an ounce of the self awareness IR possesses.  Certainly it is not evident in her interviews and her claim, moreover, that a flyover should not be built as it would spoil her already terrible voice (we're talking early noughties here) reveals her ridiculous sense of self importance.  And because of the stand she took on royalties, she found it beneath her ego to acknowledge her debt to composers.  On the other hand, IR very graciously thanked and praised his musicians at thiruvanamaalai.  In summary, I would say IR still seems to remember that he was once a nobody from pannaipuram and that ashes to ashes and dust to dust is the rule of life whereas I am not sure about that in Lata's case.  I think she lost her simplicity somewhere down the line though she has carefully cultivated a public image of simplicity and austerity.

My mistake. I didn't meant it that way I agree that Lata is nowhere as self aware as Raja. In other forums I have always argues that there is no other MD who is as self aware of Raja, in terms of where he fits in tradition, in terms of his achievement, in terms of his current market etc. He has no illusion.

crimson king wrote:

Raaga_Suresh wrote:I am not comparing Lata's attitude with Rafi. By all accounts Rafi was indeed a large hearted man. No questions there.

No questions about Lata's ego as well. The only point I wanted to emphasis here is that sheer talent that she possessed was what made people go to her again and again though theoretically they should have thrown her away. In an industry which doesn't care for anyone and has lot of bloated egos, the only reason they went to her was because they felt their success was tied to her voice. 

It was only this 'talent' aspect between Raja and Lata that I wanted to highlight. That both made very powerful enemies and yet survived in a back stabbing industry on their own terms. The comparison ends there.

  Was that really the case or was she opportunistic in exploiting situations of weaknesses to get back into the game (e.g Bobby)?  In all of the 60s, there was hardly any film whose music became popular solely on the strength of her shoulders.  Rafi delivered such soundtracks, Dosti and Aadmi immediately come to mind.  But even in a film with one of her masterpieces like Aaja Re Pardesi, Suhana Safar became a hit in its own right.  That may not necessarily be down to her talent vis a vis the others, it may also be due to cultural factors.  Just as how it is hard to run a film with a heroine having top billing.  But in the 60s Rafi was the hit delivering machine among singers and in the 70s it was Kishore.  Asha was a formidable presence in both decades.  There's nothing to show that a Kati Patang would not have been a hit without Lata singing Na Koi Umang Hai because Kishore had not one but three hits from that film.  I am sorry but with due respect I do think her commercial indispensability is overstated.  I think people were just a little more artistic/idealistic minded at that time and did not want to do without a Lata song in a film just because they loved hearing her voice so much.  It is sad if she derived so much self importance from that simple fact.

I would have gladly agreed with you had it been any field other than the film world. You can see what they have been doing to a colossal talent like Raja in TFM and what they did to RDB in HFM.

"I can't stand Rafi in many songs. He is not my favorite singer"  


Fine.  But that does not entitle you to claim only Lata (and not such incredible singers as Rafi, Manna Dey or Talat) had perfect intonation.  That is just sheer fanboism.  Pitch is not subjective.  It is objective.  It can be measured.  I have sung songs of these singers that I have mentioned and I will not accept a blanket criticism of their technical skills without objective validation.  Only Kishore and Mukesh from the male singers had suspect intonation.  Kishore more when he had to sing something really tough in a classical mould which he was smart to generally avoid.  Mukesh often ended up exposing himself but music directors helped him by recording the song in the evening by which time he would be well warmed up.

Raaga_Suresh wrote:

crimson king wrote:

Raaga_Suresh wrote:I am not comparing Lata's attitude with Rafi. By all accounts Rafi was indeed a large hearted man. No questions there.

No questions about Lata's ego as well. The only point I wanted to emphasis here is that sheer talent that she possessed was what made people go to her again and again though theoretically they should have thrown her away. In an industry which doesn't care for anyone and has lot of bloated egos, the only reason they went to her was because they felt their success was tied to her voice. 

It was only this 'talent' aspect between Raja and Lata that I wanted to highlight. That both made very powerful enemies and yet survived in a back stabbing industry on their own terms. The comparison ends there.

  Was that really the case or was she opportunistic in exploiting situations of weaknesses to get back into the game (e.g Bobby)?  In all of the 60s, there was hardly any film whose music became popular solely on the strength of her shoulders.  Rafi delivered such soundtracks, Dosti and Aadmi immediately come to mind.  But even in a film with one of her masterpieces like Aaja Re Pardesi, Suhana Safar became a hit in its own right.  That may not necessarily be down to her talent vis a vis the others, it may also be due to cultural factors.  Just as how it is hard to run a film with a heroine having top billing.  But in the 60s Rafi was the hit delivering machine among singers and in the 70s it was Kishore.  Asha was a formidable presence in both decades.  There's nothing to show that a Kati Patang would not have been a hit without Lata singing Na Koi Umang Hai because Kishore had not one but three hits from that film.  I am sorry but with due respect I do think her commercial indispensability is overstated.  I think people were just a little more artistic/idealistic minded at that time and did not want to do without a Lata song in a film just because they loved hearing her voice so much.  It is sad if she derived so much self importance from that simple fact.

I would have gladly agreed with you had it been any field other than the film world. You can see what they have been doing to a colossal talent like Raja in TFM and what they did to RDB in HFM.

Can't draw a parallel with 90s TF and old Bollywood.  In old Bolly, films were still made out of artistic desire and love and not only for money.  Lata's voice began to age by mid 70s and Kishore's by early 80s.  Yet composers still gave them plenty of songs out of their reverence.  It wasn't simply to make hits.  Are we really going to now assume these composers crafted great songs at that time only for money and without any passion for music whatsoever?  Obviously the desire to have Lata sing these songs flowed out of that passion.  Just as how I still listen to her masterpieces in spite of my dislike for how manipulative she was.

crimson king wrote:"I can't stand Rafi in many songs. He is not my favorite singer"  


Fine.  But that does not entitle you to claim only Lata (and not such incredible singers as Rafi, Manna Dey or Talat) had perfect intonation.  That is just sheer fanboism.  Pitch is not subjective.  It is objective.  It can be measured.  I have sung songs of these singers that I have mentioned and I will not accept a blanket criticism of their technical skills without objective validation.  Only Kishore and Mukesh from the male singers had suspect intonation.  Kishore more when he had to sing something really tough in a classical mould which he was smart to generally avoid.  Mukesh often ended up exposing himself but music directors helped him by recording the song in the evening by which time he would be well warmed up.

Fair enough. Let me put it this way: in a song like 'Kuhu Kuhu Bole Koyaliya' Lata scales the higher notes without shouting while I feel Rafi shouts there. Atleast that's how it sounds to my ears  Again could be subjective because I rarely like Rafi when he sings the higher notes.

Mukesh is a known case of going besura.

crimson king wrote:

Raaga_Suresh wrote:

crimson king wrote:

Raaga_Suresh wrote:I am not comparing Lata's attitude with Rafi. By all accounts Rafi was indeed a large hearted man. No questions there.

No questions about Lata's ego as well. The only point I wanted to emphasis here is that sheer talent that she possessed was what made people go to her again and again though theoretically they should have thrown her away. In an industry which doesn't care for anyone and has lot of bloated egos, the only reason they went to her was because they felt their success was tied to her voice. 

It was only this 'talent' aspect between Raja and Lata that I wanted to highlight. That both made very powerful enemies and yet survived in a back stabbing industry on their own terms. The comparison ends there.

  Was that really the case or was she opportunistic in exploiting situations of weaknesses to get back into the game (e.g Bobby)?  In all of the 60s, there was hardly any film whose music became popular solely on the strength of her shoulders.  Rafi delivered such soundtracks, Dosti and Aadmi immediately come to mind.  But even in a film with one of her masterpieces like Aaja Re Pardesi, Suhana Safar became a hit in its own right.  That may not necessarily be down to her talent vis a vis the others, it may also be due to cultural factors.  Just as how it is hard to run a film with a heroine having top billing.  But in the 60s Rafi was the hit delivering machine among singers and in the 70s it was Kishore.  Asha was a formidable presence in both decades.  There's nothing to show that a Kati Patang would not have been a hit without Lata singing Na Koi Umang Hai because Kishore had not one but three hits from that film.  I am sorry but with due respect I do think her commercial indispensability is overstated.  I think people were just a little more artistic/idealistic minded at that time and did not want to do without a Lata song in a film just because they loved hearing her voice so much.  It is sad if she derived so much self importance from that simple fact.

I would have gladly agreed with you had it been any field other than the film world. You can see what they have been doing to a colossal talent like Raja in TFM and what they did to RDB in HFM.

Can't draw a parallel with 90s TF and old Bollywood.  In old Bolly, films were still made out of artistic desire and love and not only for money.  Lata's voice began to age by mid 70s and Kishore's by early 80s.  Yet composers still gave them plenty of songs out of their reverence.  It wasn't simply to make hits.  Are we really going to now assume these composers crafted great songs at that time only for money and without any passion for music whatsoever?  Obviously the desire to have Lata sing these songs flowed out of that passion.  Just as how I still listen to her masterpieces in spite of my dislike for how manipulative she was.

I guess we will agree to disagree here. Even then commerce dictated. Else MadanMohan, Roshan and later RDB would not have been sidelined the way they were. Guess both of us have made our points.

It is not shouting, simply using more chest presence which he can naturally do as a male tenor while female sopranos naturally get into head voice and sing the same notes more lightly.  Again, the point is, 'shouting' is not pitch-imperfect.  It is not shouting in the first place, just sounds like it is. It is very controlled unless done by a rank amateur and it is possible to sing high notes in a very big voice and still be on pitch.  The two things are not related.  What you are referring to is just an aesthetic preference.  There are many rock singers who never go out of key but sound even more like they're shouting than Rafi ever did.

OK, if you mean that producers dictated to composers to include Lata, yes, quite likely and I would go along with that.  However, I would not automatically take that to imply she was indispensable.  It was more a reflection of their insecurity.  Just as how Rajini insisted on an SPB song to open his films after the flop of Baba.  That does not mean he actually needed an SPB song to make his film a hit (and given the dizzy heights of Rajini mania I would question its relevance  ) but it was just a sentimental fix that became insurmountable because of his clout.  In the producer-composer equation, composers were obviously at a disadvantage.  But from 50s to 80s there were plenty of female solos not sung by Lata that became hits and which show that the producers may have been too rigid and fixated to their formula.  90s onwards she was not a force to reckon with though she can pretend the industry depended on her beautiful rendition of tujhe dekha toh yeh jana sanam if she so wishes.

crimson king wrote:though she can pretend the industry depended on her beautiful rendition of tujhe dekha toh yeh jana sanam if she so wishes.

Though an interesting read, I got confused if this as a HFM discussion site

I do not understand why VM should be given such mileage for a comment such as this. It is best to ignore him.

Ilayathalam to post the original score of Nee Partha Paarvai - that's a bad idea in my view. That is indirectly acknowledging that VM is some composer of sorts.

Let's not get confused between talented musicians and a great composer.

When the going is good, everything is viewed in the right light. AR's crazy working hours, his choice of singers, his choice of instruments, musicians is being viewed TODAY in the right light. There is no guarantee that a few years later, it will remain the same.

Let's focus on Raja and dismiss this as one more small noise in the musical radar.

Have to say I don't quite see what right a singer has to fight for royalties? That way, one might argue that actors can also claim it. After all most Indians seem to identify (even enjoy) a song based on which actor it is picturised on. Seems self-evident to me that only a composer (and perhaps arrangers and others who had creative inputs) can stake a claim on royalties, if at all.

Let me also disagree with the contention that Lata's being a stuck up spinster held her back from being more expressive. Rarely have I heard a woman sound so much in love as in Naino me badra chhaye. If the point is about duets specifically, then I might revise my views.

On the topic that set this whole, rather meandering discussion rolling, earlier only one VM was not to be taken seriously, now another added to the list?

I am not too worried about Viji Manuel's assertions. Maybe he did. But that is not the norm with IR. Inspite of all the creative inputs in to ARR's products, it does not appeal to me. So I am with IR on - creativity should be individual expression. I am sure people should go wherever they want and follow whatever makes them happy. There must be something we are missing. I doubt IR would be so insensitive and not help an instrumentalist, especially in need of some support.
(Still, I think Karthik should stop doing 'adhigaprasangithanam' .. he messed dad's compositions earlier and no he is messing with his PR.. very disappointed with this young fellow)