IR the genius

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This new thread is opened to capture the posts from "anything and everything" thread, that cater to a distinct theme, please continue to discuss on that subject here
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innaththa chinthA vishEsham:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Entertainment/Tamil/Music/No-director-has-risen-to-my-level-Ilaiyaraaja/articleshow/36087887.cms

Q: The entire film industry loves and respects you. In fact, even top directors have such a deep sense of respect and love for you that it borders on fear. Why is this?

IR's A: The reason is, they have a very good opinion of themselves, which is why they fear me. For instance, why do you think a director feels shy to approach me? It is because the director wants to decide the music for his film. And he believes that I won't let him do that. `Will it be possible for me to suggest a change to sir?,' is what he thinks. For every film, I get down to the level of the director and score music for them. There hasn't been a director who has risen to my level and extracted work from me.

This part

they have a very good opinion of themselves, which is why they fear me

had me

And a fantastic follow-up twitlonger by Nerd:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s21fe0

First of all, I feel that people, again Raaja fans particularly should clearly understand the two facets of his compositions. The tune and the orchestration. And in my not very honest opinion, Raaja is THE Raaja not because of his tunes but because of his orchestration. Any Tom, Dick or Harry or MSV/ARR/SAR can come up with a beautiful tune because all you need is limited creativity and you already have patterns.

Actually he has simply spoken the truth which as usual people are not going to like to read because making a pretense of modesty, rather than the real McCoy, carries a lot of importance in India.  Which director of the ones IR worked with can be called a genius?  People like Balu Mahendra may have been very good at what they did but that they are not geniuses should be evident.  Apart from that, whom among them has had his staying power or been anywhere near as prolific?  Now I do understand that a director, having to co-ordinate so many artists to achieve his vision, cannot be doing 30 films a year like a composer, but still I don't think even by basis of some reasonable extrapolation, we would find anybody as prolific as IR.  The yawning gap between the picturisation and the music in 99% of his songs is proof enough that no director has yet risen to IR's level.

And we don't need to play down IR's tune making ability, though the orchestration anyway establishes his uniqueness.  He is the best in that aspect as well.  Songs like Nil nil nil speak for his inventiveness in exploring unusual raagas or exploring the usual ones in a new light.  Every aspect of his music reveals unprecedented insights.  I don't think such a claim could be made for any IFM composers that I have heard (though, apart from Tamil and Hindi, I have only heard a little bit of Rajan Nagendra and KVM).

app_engine wrote:And a fantastic follow-up twitlonger by Nerd:
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s21fe0

First of all, I feel that people, again Raaja fans particularly should clearly understand the two facets of his compositions. The tune and the orchestration. And in my not very honest opinion, Raaja is THE Raaja not because of his tunes but because of his orchestration. Any Tom, Dick or Harry or MSV/ARR/SAR can come up with a beautiful tune because all you need is limited creativity and you already have patterns.

Well, I have to disagree with some of the points in that twitlonger.

1. The final tune is still IR's and only IR's. It is clear he doesn't change the tune at the whim of the director. Doesn't matter if the director rejected a few tunes before settling on one. He is unlikely to have had any real say in the final tune.

2. For most people in India, tune is the main hook. Music appreciation varies from culture to culture and as most of our classical as well as folk music forms (both vocal and instrumental) are largely melody and rhythm based, the masses naturally dig these aspects more. 


3. Being as much an Indian (music) composer as a western one, Raja is as much, if not a greater tunesmith than an orchestrator. It is perfectly fine IMO if a paamaran "Raja fan" appreciates him for that aspect alone or doesn't dig NEPV much. I have seen a few people bandy about the theory that IR loves film music composing only for the ludes which I don't really understand. 


4. What I do agree with is the subconscious appreciation of the WCM in IR's work.

app_engine wrote:innaththa chinthA vishEsham:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Entertainment/Tamil/Music/No-director-has-risen-to-my-level-Ilaiyaraaja/articleshow/36087887.cms

Q: The entire film industry loves and respects you. In fact, even top directors have such a deep sense of respect and love for you that it borders on fear. Why is this?

IR's A: The reason is, they have a very good opinion of themselves, which is why they fear me. For instance, why do you think a director feels shy to approach me? It is because the director wants to decide the music for his film. And he believes that I won't let him do that. `Will it be possible for me to suggest a change to sir?,' is what he thinks. For every film, I get down to the level of the director and score music for them. There hasn't been a director who has risen to my level and extracted work from me.

This part

they have a very good opinion of themselves, which is why they fear me

had me

Comments paathengala?

So far, i thought Ilayaraja is a matured and humble human being. But after reading his interview, i find Ilayaraja remains ilaya-raaja (immatured raja) only and has not grown at all.

Was he living under a rock or something?

For most people in India, tune is the main hook. Music appreciation varies from culture to culture and as most of our classical as well as folk music forms (both vocal and instrumental) are largely melody and rhythm based, the masses naturally dig these aspects more.

true hence peeps with lesser talents in orchestration like Maragathamani/TR/Sirpy/SAR could eke out a career in music direction.
point is Ayyappa cassette Veeramani is much similar and nothing distinguishes him from the above said names.

my theory is these 'tune' based fans are those who look for 'story' in movies..to bring down
the point why tune is overrated let me cite an example..Vamsy was completely hooked by 'Vanila Thenila' from 'Kakki Sattai'
hence got his lyrist to write for that tune in his bid to test Raaja but ended up stumped with Raaja tuning the given
lyrics to 'Saahasam Naa Padam' for Maharishi..counter example of tune alone wouldn't suffice is this great
tune which amalgams into mediocre song with timid orchestration in the hands of another MD and any guesses
on who this MD is?

Munk shared a twitter convo where this IR fan appears to disapprove of Raja's supposed denunciation of directors he worked with. Recall IR also said Kamal and Rajni not working with him any more is their loss and not his and we witnessed similar bouts of outrage then. IR's dig on the sparring thalais and the juvenile fanboy reactions of their legions of fans are of course the stuff of legend. Far be it for me to attempt to undertake the mission of curing these people of their humblophilia. I have not the patience or energy for it. But if all these folks would pause to reflect on these statements rather than go into reflexive hyperventilation and self-righteous moral indignation at very perceived slight to their matinee idols, they might be able to understand where IR is coming from. 


So what exactly did IR say now then? Simple - that no director has managed to rise to his level and extract work from him. 
Ponder the merits or demerits of that statement and if it tuns out the statement is patently false or objectively indefensible , by all means feel free to call out IR for his arrogance. Also feel free to call out fans defending these statements as blind adulators. But if an analysis of facts, statistics and common sense bears out that there is a strong justification for such a statement, especially coming from a person whose genius is, well, incontestable, why not give him the benefit of doubt and at least admit the possibility that he might have a point. Do these people have the humility to own up? When DM wrote a blogpost debunking the IR=VM myth purely with irrefutable numbers and facts, steering clear of even inferences and extrapolations and sticking to plain indisputable facts, not one VM visiri came forward to admit that they had been believing, peddling and propagating a myth all these years. Is this called humility? Isn't humility also having the courage to admit that one was wrong? To continue holding on to your opinions when facts paint a completely different picture is nothing but the most contemptible arrogance.

adhula pArunga, maximum edhir vinai to "eppidi IR micha directors pathi ippidi pEsalAm (adhuvE uNmayA irundhAlum)?" (this adhuvE uNmayA irundhAlum is an addendum they are ready to add and not even my opinion) or "indha IR fans eppidi ippidi IR'a pathi pEsara nammaLa thAzhvA madhippidalAm?" (when only the flaw in such a premise is being pointed out. We make an objective statement and they construe it as a judgment on their statement when it is they who are judging IR for saying something true and we merely ask them not to judge character in an inferior way on such factual statements) They then say this is Talibanization of opinion.

So,

1. You don't want a genius to tell the truth for some ill conceived notion of social nicety and for lesser talents you like to not be inferiorized (your rasanai of a KB or a Vairamuthu in a different level is indirectly shown its inferior place when IR says no director stands close to me and say "for me, IR = KB/VM" and "unguLukku IR perusunA enakku KB, VM perusu" when all I ask is KB'yum IR'um oNNA and not on ungaLukku KB perusu'na enakku IR perusu for such an edhirvinai to arise and btw, this statement is general to usual arguments that arise and not just on this particular interview) and you will judge the genius's character for putting your rasanai in its true place (who is arrogant here?!).

2. You will take a grudge against those who point you to this fundamental flaw and say they exhibit superiority complex (because when Plum mocked point 1 in his TL, point 2 was exhibited and they themselves came to the conclusion that "mafias over'a thuLLarAnga" when we were merely reacting to unfunny jokes that exhibited the characteristic arrogance of point 1). 

Additional point 3. You will then base your rasanai of the said genius based on point 2 and won't mind saying "I stopped listening to IR because of his fans".

PS: Point 4. You will crack unfunny jokes holding true to points 1, 2 and 3, spread it among the coterie and make merry. 

Point 5. Recycle from point 1 to 4.

fring151 & DM,


I've long back given up on such characters ("Let them be")...and stopped having any conversation with such fellows.

Plum has energy still (to work on that count)

BTW, on that account of IR telling the directors not anywhere in his league, இதைத்தான் நாங்கள்லாம் ரொம்ப நாளா சொல்லிக்கிட்டுருக்கோம்

(நாங்கன்னா அதுல சாருஹாசன், அதாவது மணிரத்னத்தோட மாமனார், எல்லாம் சேத்தி...)

இப்போ ராசாவே பத்திரிகையில் சொல்லிருக்கார். அம்புட்டுத்தேன்...

app_engine wrote:BTW, on that account of IR telling the directors not anywhere in his league, இதைத்தான் நாங்கள்லாம் ரொம்ப நாளா சொல்லிக்கிட்டுருக்கோம்

(நாங்கன்னா அதுல சாருஹாசன், அதாவது மணிரத்னத்தோட மாமனார், எல்லாம் சேத்தி...)

இப்போ ராசாவே பத்திரிகையில் சொல்லிருக்கார்.  அம்புட்டுத்தேன்...

idhukku edhirvinai nu irundhudhuna directors'terndhu varaNam. Self appointed neutrals in judging attitude ku yEn kObam varudhu if IR talks about directors? Because your fanboism to those directors is being put in its place? awww looks like somebody got hurt real bad

"ஆனா, ஒவ்வொரு படத்துக்கு இசையமைக்கும்போதும், நான் அந்த டைரக்டர்கள் அளவுக்கு இறங்கிப் போய்த்தான் இசையமைக்கிறேன். என் அளவுக்கு உயர்ந்து நின்று என்னிடம் வேலை வாங்கிய இயக்குநர்கள் யாருமில்லை!"

http://tamil.oneindia.in/movies/news/why-new-directors-fear-approach-me-ilayaraaja-202826.html

  
Gokul

Drunkenmunk wrote:idhukku edhirvinai nu irundhudhuna directors'terndhu varaNam.

Correct!

What are these KB / BR / MR kind of fellows' reactions?

Should not the media fellows be asking them right now?

Come on, come on!

Gentlemen,
I dont think IR really means to disrespect directors. There was an implication in the question - "even top directors respect you.... " - being directors are at a higher level and they are kind enough to show respect/appreciation for the music director. IR is just showing his annoyance - yaar vandhu ennai respect panna vEndi irukku ? . In his books, respect is not shallow polite words.. it is matching with quality work from his side. He might say,pOya, vAya .. to Nasser. but he will get down to do his work as soon as he sees quality output. That is why Nasser says I respect him as a fellow professional. I am pretty sure if they go ask this to BM (if he were alive) he would say 'neenga En, idu maadhiri kElvi ellAm avar kitta pOi kEtkareenga " enRu solvAr, I think.

This is the best part I liked about that interview.

Q: You have scored music for thousands of songs and have been delivering hit after hit for decades together. Yet, you don't seem to have reached a saturation point. What is the primary reason for this?
A: The reason is simple. It is not my property. It is not my mental concept or presentation or for that matter, my effort. It (music) comes all by itself and I give it to others. Only when I harbour the thought that I have accomplished all this will this question of what will I do next arise. I don't have that thought at all. It comes all by itself and therefore, I give it as I receive it.

kiru wrote:Gentlemen,
I dont think IR really means to disrespect directors.

Kiru sir,
அவரு மரியாதைக்குறைவு ஒன்னும் செய்யலையே..."அவுங்க லெவல் அவ்வளவு தான், என்னோட லெவல் இவ்வளவு"ன்னு உண்மை தானே சொல்றார்

"இல்லை - இல்லை, அவர் துறையில் ராசா எவ்வளவு உயரமோ அதே அளவு என் துறையில் நானும் உன்னதம் தான்" என்று யாராவது வந்து மார் தட்டட்டுமே!

Wiz - Mahadevan gaaru ennikki orch senjurukkAr? I think it must have been a hack job by KVm's ace orchestrator Pugazhendhi with KVM barely involved.
KVM being a tune man - I dont know if he would have agreed to plagiarise tune from IR. IF tune has been decided what is KVM's contribution after that?
It has always been zero. Knowing telugu producers, they must have shoved it down the MD's throat - they dared not to do it only to one man and tha man was the creator of the original of the nari nari naduma murAri song you quoted - and KVM was too weak in the late 80s to protest. Take the cheque and leave mus thave been hsi reaction.

mothatathula nAn thEdum sevvandhu nARi nARi nadula mARi pOChu

Salangai oli, Hey Ram and Guna (if you blank out the last fight scene) are true cinematic masterpieces. These are the only movies I can think of where the director's vision, screen writing and execution have arguably matched IR's brilliance. The song picturisations were also handled quite creatively. Paartha vizhi is probably the best visualised IR song ever. Apart from these examples I am at a loss to think of any other thirai kaaviyams which have been worthy of the music IR provided.

There have been other great movies IR has worked on, notably Kamal starrers like Thevar magan, but I don't think that movie threw up any significant new challenges for IR or offered him the scope to innovate extensively. The only psychological thriller worth its salt in Tamil is Sigappu rojakkal which is rescued from mediocrity largely by IR, Kamal and Bhagyaraj's dialogues. It turned out to be an eminently watchable movie despite Bharathiraja not because of. It is staggering IR delivered what he did in Tik tik tik - a horrendously sodhappified movie. What would he have come up with if he had had the opportunities to score for a psychological thriller handled by a master director. Vertigo? Taxi driver? That's probably IR's thought process as well. I remember that interview where IR praises the director of Amadeus for the way he filmed a particular scene and wonders when our directors will be half as perceptive. This was in the late 80s. Looks like he is still waiting!

fring151 wrote:Salangai oli, Hey Ram and Guna (if you blank out the last fight scene) are true cinematic masterpieces. These are the only movies I can think of where the director's vision, screen writing and execution have arguably matched IR's brilliance.

I remember that interview where IR praises the director of Amadeus for the way he filmed a particular scene and wonders when our directors will be half as perceptive. This was in the late 80s. Looks like he is still waiting!

Salangai Oli is a musical. So how much of the vision in the musical sequences are solely the director's and how much is elevated by IR's genius is arguable imo. Execution I will give it to KV. Brilliant stuff. Hey Ram again Kamal wanted IR to do only the BGM first. The screenplay is genius. IR refused to do only the BGM and when Kamal said shooting the songs again would be hard on his budget, IR offered to compose over what was shot. What we have is Kamal's genius. But IR's genius towered over even Kamal's if we know the background behind the process of bringing in IR over LS. So this is not even Kamal asking IR to compose over what was shot to stretch his genius or coming up to IR's genius (in other words, Kamal's genius is not in question. What is in question if even Kamal's genius is of IR's level). It was IR voluntarily offering to go the extra yard.

Guna is again a collaboration between Saab Jaan () , Santhanabharathi ()and Kamal though you may map the brilliant moments and the excellence in the screenplay straight to Kamal. But if we give a listen to the composition process, we see Santhanabharathi and Kamal together offering insight and asking for tunes ("unga thani pAdalgaLLa oru pAttu irukkumE aNNEn..." IR: "em pAva kaNakkukku..." Kamal: "aahn adhu mAri.." IR on harmonium and comes up with the tune for appanendrum ammaiyendrum). Kamal tells situation for Kanmani, IR comes up with a lovely melody and Kamal mentions how much more simpler the words and melody must be, IR calls him into the room and Kamal hesitates, IR asks "emmEla nambikka irukkulla?" Kamal: "nambikka irukku." How much of the tune "extraction" (like some neutrals hilariously put it) was from the director or script writer I don't know. But I'm able to relate to Raaja understanding the brilliance in the screenplay, deigning down and composing for them. He is also giving idea into the name of the film so his inputs also extend into the making of the film but he doesn't have any assts or inputs from others into composing the music  idhukkellAm mEla BGM composing in the film where the director has hardly any say than tell him the feel and the soundscape he wants (adhuvum not often but like MR saying when Karthik enters into the room in Mouna Ragam that he wants a Spanish flavor to the music and IR immediately writing it down and MR mentioning how "you have to say what you want when he's about to write because it will all finish so quickly and it will be so good that you can't ask for what you want, if you want it"; Kamal asking for a Richard Wagner-esque theme in Hey Ram; Mysskin asking for a baroque like soundscape for OAK. adhukku mEla they can't ask and justify as to why they'd want a counterpoint here and not there. I think that's the kind of genius that IR says none of the directors possess, which is exhibited in an Amadeus where the director/script writer wove a film around Mozart and Salieri's music). The interludes in the songs again where I don't think any director has ever managed to override IR and asked him to change, justified why and got away with it. Sure, Salangai Oli, Hey Ram, Guna, Rudraveena brought out great music from IR and the team that did it (in Rudraveena with Ananthu, KB and assts) or the director (KV in Sagara Sangamam and Kamal in Hey Ram) may be a cut above others in Indian Films. But did they rise to his genius? Kamal often re-shoots and has re-shot extensive stretches of his film (like in Aboorva Sagodharargal) and they operate on trial and error and keep chiseling to make it perfect. IR one schedule of 30 min writing to write every song from Kalaivaniye to Sundari Kannal Oru Sedhi. No over writing or going back to re-work. Matching IR's brilliance... not sure if it's the right phrase. Sorry Fring not able to accept that



w.r.t Amadeus, even I remember. I've not seen the film but it does seem like (from what he keeps saying on the film and having seen it 25 times and every watch giving way to a new interpretation) IR might have the time of his life composing for such a film.

Drunkenmunk wrote:Matching IR's brilliance... not sure if it's the right phrase. Sorry Fring not able to accept that 

Yov, NAnum neetral'nu ulagathukku eppdi thAn nirubikkardhu pinna?

Ok, matching brilliance othukka mudiyAdhuna oru padi keezha erangi varEn. "Did exemplary justice to the compositions".  

fring151 wrote:

Drunkenmunk wrote:Matching IR's brilliance... not sure if it's the right phrase. Sorry Fring not able to accept that 

Yov, NAnum neetral'nu ulagathukku eppdi thAn nirubikkardhu pinna?

Ok, matching brilliance othukka mudiyAdhuna oru padi keezha erangi varEn. "Did exemplary justice to the compositions".  

   Ok accepted

Good discussion guys.. bringing up interesting anecdotes.. I have lots of respect for Kamal.
It is very difficult to compare people from different functions.
But personally, in the tamil film industry - I consider only 3 people as real greats - IR, Kannadhasan and Sivaji.

kiru wrote:Good discussion guys.. bringing up interesting anecdotes.. I have lots of respect for Kamal.
It is very difficult to compare people from different functions.
But personally, in the tamil film industry - I consider only 3 people as real greats - IR, Kannadhasan and Sivaji.

That's likely to be a fairly uncontroversial pick in this forum. I would add Kamal and MSV to that list. All pinnacles in TF have involved the contribution of one or more of these 5. Well, except Alaipaayuthey, maybe.

fring151 wrote:

kiru wrote:Good discussion guys.. bringing up interesting anecdotes.. I have lots of respect for Kamal.
It is very difficult to compare people from different functions.
But personally, in the tamil film industry - I consider only 3 people as real greats - IR, Kannadhasan and Sivaji.

That's likely to be a fairly uncontroversial pick in this forum. I would add Kamal and MSV to that list. All pinnacles in TF have involved the contribution of one or more of these 5. Well, except Alaipaayuthey, maybe.

Amen. Was discussing with Bala (Karthik) on the same topic in twitter and I missed Kannadasan. IR, Kamal, Kannadasan, Sivaji only in all time Tamil cinema genius list with MSV and Vaali coming in the next rung for me (ARR is a special talent, especially the one that broke in the early 90s but I won't call him a genius from my personal rasanai). With Kannadasan, it's interesting because he himself claimed his genius was shrunk by his substance abuse (in his autobiography) and he died pretty young so we really don't know how his genius would have scorched the film world (maybe an Ilayaraaja in the lyric world, and we as it is have no less an authority than IR himself claiming writing lyrics came as easily to Kannadasan like music did to him). Only genius who is a could-have-been-a-far-greater-genius (not a common tag and I think I will use this only for Kannadasan) is him. In contemporary filmdom, Kamal is the only talent coming close to IR but the gap is still huge. Sivaji acting genius and the best we ever had. But outside acting, pretty much a novice in other depts hence falls a rung below Kamal. IR simply towers above these gentlemen in terms of a complete genius that has fully realized its genius and self aware of its true worth.