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Post  crimson king Sat Sep 20, 2014 10:59 am

Reading through the comments on the youtube clips of I songs, confirmed that internationalisation of TFM is the new strategy of ARR camp.  There's somebody snidely telling another commenter that "you have to grow up from listening to only Tamil music.  This is international music."  Unfortunately, international basically means crap like Bieber and Bruno Mars now.  Even Bryan Adams is swapp-able with that shit.

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Post  crimson king Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:18 am

Listening to Yaarumila.  Not a bad song at all. Pretty good, I would say.  Just has a been there-done that feeling about it, doesn't really grab me (same as Innum Konjam Neram, in other words). But I'd much rather he does more such songs rather than Aiyoo, sorry, Ladio.

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Post  fring151 Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:23 am

crimson king wrote:Reading through the comments on the youtube clips of I songs, confirmed that internationalisation of TFM is the new strategy of ARR camp.  There's somebody snidely telling another commenter that "you have to grow up from listening to only Tamil music.  This is international music."  Unfortunately, international basically means crap like Bieber and Bruno Mars now.  Even Bryan Adams is swapp-able with that shit.

Well, that's been evident for quite some time now, hasn't it? He doesn't even make any effort to hide it.

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Post  crimson king Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:24 am

Listening through Aye Mr Minor, I can see what ARR's fix is (and probably was right from the beginning).  When he tries to do a period jazz number, he only ends up imitating the old MSV (or maybe even older 50s style) numbers.  He does not do anything adventurous with, say, the basslines even when there's the chance.  He has just never been about spine chilling harmonic choices.  If he does something melodic and mellow shorn of his usual sonic embellishments, he ends up imitating the old Tamil masters.  This is why he had to go down that road; that's the only way he can disguise how safe his melodic and harmonic choices actually are.

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Post  crimson king Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:27 am

fring151 wrote:
crimson king wrote:Reading through the comments on the youtube clips of I songs, confirmed that internationalisation of TFM is the new strategy of ARR camp.  There's somebody snidely telling another commenter that "you have to grow up from listening to only Tamil music.  This is international music."  Unfortunately, international basically means crap like Bieber and Bruno Mars now.  Even Bryan Adams is swapp-able with that shit.

Well, that's been evident for quite some time now, hasn't it? He doesn't even make any effort to hide it.

I mean that even the conversion is well entrenched now.  He's got a whole set of listeners who believe in this credo now.  Like Harold McMillan he probably feels like saying "Some of us have never had it so good".  Just tanglify a boring international crap a bit and the frogs in the well will lap it up because with all their much vaunted open mindedness they can't even listen to the same dance number with English lyrics.  There's somebody saying they don't like opera but Rahman made them like it with Aila.  Yepppa!!!  What crime did Dame Sutherland or Montserrat Caballe commit that Natalie Di Luccio ft Rahman is better than them in some universe!

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Post  fring151 Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:37 am

"Just tanglify a boring international crap a bit and the frogs in the well will lap it up"

Precisely... Now revisiting - this song from the not-so-heralded Taj Mahal album. So refreshing. So (original) ARRish



Still not a patch on this song from the original Taj Mahal, but I digresss.  Razz


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Post  fring151 Sat Sep 20, 2014 11:48 am

And yes, yaarumila is not bad at all, perhaps the only memorable song from the movie, though I wouldn't go so far as to say it would become a classic or anything. Aye Mr.Minor is fairly unobjectionable, but hardly offers anything new in terms of chord progressions or other innovations.

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Post  fring151 Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:02 pm

Was also chatting with Munk about the song below. Where is this Rahman, damnit! This music evokes so many fond memories, so many emotions. So much nativity, such unfettered melodic imagination, what a lovely twist in the charanam at "Idhu kaNNangaLA". And SPB - a joy as always. Sigh, can never hope to get the ARR of my childhood back, I suppose.  Crying or Very sad


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Post  crimson king Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:09 pm

I don't even like Kadhalar Dhinam that much...think they pointed to the early signs of the decline to come.  But at least he was still writing melodies that had a shape and structure at that time.  Actually in both Hindi and Tamil, that approach to writing melody is gone (which is probably what the maniacs refer to as moving with the times).  Rahman has always had his sights on the commercial radar first and foremost and he will ruthlessly do whatever satisfies the youth-u of the day.  IR, barring the late 90s light Vijay music phase, has stuck to his guns and stood by his convictions even at the cost of getting labeled as rigid or outdated.

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Post  fring151 Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:22 pm

Perhaps nostalgia is clouding my judgement on some of those late 90s, early 00s ARR songs, but I continue to like them nonetheless. No question on the commercial radar thing, but maybe his appraisal of podhu rasanai and commercial appeal at the time was different? Now he knows all he needs to get a hit number (or indeed, album)  from the Tamil or all India yOOth is, as you said, tanglicise famous (and mind-numbingly dull, if I might add) pop hits from America.

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Post  crimson king Sat Sep 20, 2014 12:29 pm

It was Subhash Ghai, of all people, who made an apt observation about the change in how ARR worked over the years.  He said when he had met him to discuss the music of Taal, ARR gave him his full attention and concentration.  And while Taal may not rank among the best albums of that period, it was a pretty good one for sure.  But when he worked with him again for Yuvraaj, he found ARR distracted, having to attend to calls even as he was talking/listening to Ghai.  Maybe that is also a reflection of ARR's understandable lack of enthusiasm for a film like Yuvraaj  Razz but it could be as simple as he is not able to get on top of 'noise' anymore.  I do think that while mobile phones and internet have their advantages, they can also be intrusive and disturb one's concentration.   

That, and of course the conviction that he should do international music, something which the Oscar has probably strengthened.

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Post  Wizzy Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:38 pm

boy doesn't Brangan sound like Dr.Selvam in that Aai review, never really gets down to specifics,
mostly 'anubavikanum, aaraaya koodathu' may be he is spreading his bets on the notion
that these songs will eventually grow on him Laughing

AR should be forever grateful to that marketing genius who came-up with that 'grow on you' tag.
none of his competitors have that opulence and he/maniacs/ursmaniac have been exploiting it unabashingly since yore.
on 90s AR, those are low hanging mangoes which are being routinely plucked/processed by HJ and does a damn
good job at it so only way out for AR to be relevant/seen different from Anis of the world are the new sounding instruments/synths straight out of the
labs or dump his songs with many layers which are nothing more than worksheets for his sound engineers.

moreover avar enna vechiketta vangana pandrar if Sangar cement couldn't awaken
AR's Kundalini then something is surely amiss. Ghai's excuse is superlame, forget his tamil works which are kind of low priority for him (mango peeps
here easily befall for that tag) none of his recent big ticket hindi ventures have neither
set the charts on fire nor did it grow on peeps.
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Post  crimson king Sat Sep 20, 2014 6:43 pm

OK, that is something on which I have always disagreed with the HCIRFs and same is the case today.  I simply do not see how HJ was a substitute for ARR.  At the most, he stretched the elevator music element of ARR to its logical conclusion.  But in the early days, ARR attempted to experiment, in soundtracks like Bombay or Thiruda Thiruda.  Not only do I not see any HJ soundtrack as even nearly comparable to that standard, I don't see any intent to experiment at all in HJ's music.  HJ has been very clear from day one that he wants to make commercial, catchy, inoffensive, westernised music.

I would put it this way: in the early days, ARR's freestyle approach appeared spontaneous (even though it was in fact the product of meticulous studio engineering) and carefree.  Over the years, it has become increasingly forced.  There's no sense of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts anymore.

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Post  Drunkenmunk Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:11 pm

crimson king wrote:OK, that is something on which I have always disagreed with the HCIRFs and same is the case today.  I simply do not see how HJ was a substitute for ARR.  At the most, he stretched the elevator music element of ARR to its logical conclusion.  But in the early days, ARR attempted to experiment, in soundtracks like Bombay or Thiruda Thiruda.  Not only do I not see any HJ soundtrack as even nearly comparable to that standard, I don't see any intent to experiment at all in HJ's music.  HJ has been very clear from day one that he wants to make commercial, catchy, inoffensive, westernised music.

I would put it this way: in the early days, ARR's freestyle approach appeared spontaneous (even though it was in fact the product of meticulous studio engineering) and carefree.  Over the years, it has become increasingly forced.  There's no sense of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts anymore.

anga dhAn twistu. Maniacs themselves agree any Tom Dick and Harry is able to produce the sound these days. ursmusically review says the same. Kind of self-defeating but I agree with you. Early ARR ku konjam close in terms of sound and a semblance of musicality means I'll only bring Amit Trivedi close (Lootera was very good that way).
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Post  Wizzy Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:13 pm

CK, if you sample HJ fans, majority of them would be those yearning for/fans of 90s AR..
their sensibilities more or less same given directors/movies they chose to work on/with.
imo AR/HJ work best in a master/slave relationship with directors. they work best with those who really push their backs
and fall flat if given a free rein or made to work with newbies/fanbois. nowhere did I say HJ is more talented than
AR, just that 90s AR space has already been taken and HJ appears to be far safer bet for those urban movies/sensibilities.
say if gundu Mani chooses to work with HJ for his next urban romantic venture its safe to assume he will
do a far better job than AR did in Kadal or with GVM for that matter given his recent debacle.
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Post  crimson king Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:23 pm

Wizzy wrote:CK, if you sample HJ fans, majority of them would be those yearning for/fans of 90s AR..
their sensibilities more or less same given directors/movies they chose to work on/with.
imo AR/HJ work best in a master/slave relationship with directors. they work best with those who really push their backs
and fall flat if given a free rein or made to work with newbies/fanbois. nowhere did I say HJ is more talented than
AR, just that 90s AR space has already been taken and HJ appears to be far safer bet for those urban movies/sensibilities.
say if gundu Mani chooses to work with HJ for his next urban romantic venture its safe to assume he will
do a far better job than AR did in Kadal or with GVM for that matter given his recent debacle.

The HJ fans may be those who used to like 90s ARR but that doesn't mean HJ's music resembles ARR.  Just as how some 90s ARR fans, the ones who don't like his current work very much, happen to be IR fans but that doesn't mean that ARR in 90s was doing what IR was doing in the 80s.  The market that HJ captured may be the one ARR used to enjoy in the 90s but I was talking about the music only and not the market.

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Post  Drunkenmunk Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:27 pm

crimson king wrote:
The HJ fans may be those who used to like 90s ARR but that doesn't mean HJ's music resembles ARR.  Just as how some 90s ARR fans, the ones who don't like his current work very much, happen to be IR fans but that doesn't mean that ARR in 90s was doing what IR was doing in the 80s.  The market that HJ captured may be the one ARR used to enjoy in the 90s but I was talking about the music only and not the market.

Disagree. ARR's music like you rightly say owes nothing to IR's. But HJ from day 1 came across as a poor man's ARR musically (consciously brought his musical elements too though it was obviously inferior) and pretty much brought the same sounds.
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Post  crimson king Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:37 pm

Drunkenmunk wrote:
crimson king wrote:
The HJ fans may be those who used to like 90s ARR but that doesn't mean HJ's music resembles ARR.  Just as how some 90s ARR fans, the ones who don't like his current work very much, happen to be IR fans but that doesn't mean that ARR in 90s was doing what IR was doing in the 80s.  The market that HJ captured may be the one ARR used to enjoy in the 90s but I was talking about the music only and not the market.

Disagree. ARR's music like you rightly say owes nothing to IR's. But HJ from day 1 came across as a poor man's ARR musically (consciously brought his musical elements too though it was obviously inferior) and pretty much brought the same sounds.
The sounds may be somewhat similar but even the ragas (or is it singular) that HJ uses are very different from ARR's. He was trying to capture the kind of appeal ARR had for listeners to some extent, yes.

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Post  Drunkenmunk Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:44 pm

crimson king wrote:
Disagree. ARR's music like you rightly say owes nothing to IR's. But HJ from day 1 came across as a poor man's ARR musically (consciously brought his musical elements too though it was obviously inferior) and pretty much brought the same sounds.
The sounds may be somewhat similar but even the ragas (or is it singular) that HJ uses are very different from ARR's. He was trying to capture the kind of appeal ARR had for listeners to some extent, yes.

LOL @ singular. I mean the music itself. For example, the line tholaindha en kaNgaLai in Mudhar Kanave, Majnu, is almost identical to the veena riffs in the leo Coffee ad. Gulmohar Malare from the same film is almost similar in structure and feel to Pachai Nirame, Alaipayuthe (same singer too!). Pada Pada Pattaampoochi, same film again resembles Uppu Karuvaadu, Mudhalvan (same male and female singer!!). The recent Idhu Kadhivelan Kadhal had a song whose prelude chords were ripped from Elay Keechan (whose chords itself are derived from a new age pop song) laugh So musically he tries to imitate ARR though it falls flat imo. And it is true that he and Yuvan were able to pretty much get the sound in the early 2000s. Amit Trivedi has replicated the sound with some decently original musicality too. So I will never say HJ replaced ARR musically but he successfully (commercially i.e.) imitated ARR's music and he has a lot of takers in mainstream TN y00th buplic.
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Post  crimson king Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:48 pm

Interesting.  I will check out those examples later and see for myself whether I can notice these similarities.  Since I was never swayed so much by the sound, I focused on the melody and there I actually found more similarity between Yuvan and ARR (esp Dhina, Sollammal song) rather than HJ.  But I guess you are right, the instrumentals he probably derives a lot from ARR.  Still, sad that HJ has filled ARR's space in the minds of the youthu.

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Post  Drunkenmunk Sat Sep 20, 2014 7:55 pm

One more. Poove Vaai Pesum Bodhu, 12B. Charanam's first 2 lines: http://www.tubechop.com/watch/3619008

Swasame Swasame, Thenali. Charanam's first 2 lines:
http://www.tubechop.com/watch/3619013

Identical. HJ is a waste of space in the musical field. Lame imitator of ARR but built a good market in the 2000s. Now if the rise of the Sanothosh Narayanans, Ghibrans is making him and Yuvan irrelevant, musically Very GOOD (though I'd rate Yuvan a few notches over HJ. Not a musical wastrel like HJ). Though the rise of Anirudh is not good Razz
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Post  Drunkenmunk Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:12 pm

Again, re-listening to Poove Vaai Pesum Bodhu and Swasame Swasame. Former just completely lacks the richness of the combination of musicality and sound because it is weak in musicality (especially being for a part, an imitation of the latter) Razz
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Post  jaiganesh Sat Sep 20, 2014 8:23 pm

All this essentially comes down to keyboardists who suddenly found the guts to become composers because the software is easy to procure and the singers and musicians provide the key inputs (for a mention in sleeves).Funny thing is the CD sleeve is so redundant as no one buys CDs these days..

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Post  counterpoint Sun Sep 21, 2014 8:46 am

I had  discarded HJ long time back. In fact after Majnu 80% of his songs were repetetive :-)
He can attempt to give a soundtrack like say Delhi-6 in his next life. He is like what Deva was in the 90s. Successfully imitating IR and ARR in parts and ending up as the busiest MD in the 90s. But Deva was actually capable of more than HJ, he can compose decent melodies now and then. HJ's so called raga usage is limited to the Natabhairavi scale. Most of his so-called melodies are derived from this. His meters are also recycled. Classic example- nenjukkul peidhidum maamazhai(the overated nursery rhyme)
can be easily sung in the tune of vaarayo vaarayo monalisa from aadhavan, the opening lines.And his penchant for feminine sounding male voices/singing was also ridiculous. Him and Yuvan have to be buried quickly by these young crop of MDs showing promise. Hope Ghibran has something special in Uththama villian

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Post  crimson king Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:04 am

counterpoint wrote:I had  discarded HJ long time back. In fact after Majnu 80% of his songs were repetetive :-)
He can attempt to give a soundtrack like say Delhi-6 in his next life. He is like what Deva was in the 90s. Successfully imitating IR and ARR in parts and ending up as the busiest MD in the 90s. But Deva was actually capable of more than HJ, he can compose decent melodies now and then. HJ's so called raga usage is limited to the Natabhairavi scale. Most of his so-called melodies are derived from this. His meters are also recycled. Classic example- nenjukkul peidhidum maamazhai(the overated nursery rhyme)
can be easily sung in the tune of vaarayo vaarayo monalisa from aadhavan, the opening lines.And his penchant for feminine sounding male voices/singing was also ridiculous. Him and Yuvan have to be buried quickly by these young crop of MDs showing promise. Hope Ghibran has something special in Uththama villian

Good analysis. Yes, I also think HJ is essentially doing what Deva was doing in the 90s except, as you said, Deva could come up with a good tune once in a while and also HJ adopted a far more urbane position.  I would mark down both Deva from Aasai onwards (esp Aasai itself) and HJ as post-Rahman rather than Rahman-like or Rahman-like.  Deva started recording songs really well to somewhat capture superficially the effect of a Rahman track and that was HJ's appeal from the beginning. But neither actually used such a rich variety of sounds as Rahman nor showed much creativity or adventure in the way they used such sounds.

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