Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 1

**plum** Sat Sep 14, 2013 6:39 am

kazhudhainga dhAn koottamA compose paNNum<see footnote>, kuiylukku sondha kuralE pOdhum

footnote: apdi sErndhu compose paNdradhum oru kazhudhai kaththal dhAn

crimson king Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:12 am

isaifan wrote:
One reason I strongly feel SPB/KJY were sidelined and new (in)capable singers promoted from 92 for variety was because no composer, except IR, had (and has) the ability to give songs that are worthy of SPB/KJY. Imagine ARR or any other co-MD having SPB/KJY/PS/SJ/KSC/MV and composing 6 songs in an album....

I would not say ARR especially sidelined SPB after 1992. He kept giving him lots of songs, right from Roja through Muthu to Thenali until the turn of the century, after which the no. of SPB songs in Tamil seems to have gone down. But if ARR gave any songs to KJY in Tamil, I am not aware of them. Likewise, he did give lots of songs to Chithra in the 90s but seemed to change his mind in the noughties whereas he had already started tapering it off w.r.t S Janaki (Erani/Margazhi Thingal are among the few I remember)

Raaga_Suresh Sat Sep 14, 2013 12:57 pm

crimson king wrote:I would not say ARR especially sidelined SPB after 1992. He kept giving him lots of songs, right from Roja through Muthu to Thenali until the turn of the century, after which the no. of SPB songs in Tamil seems to have gone down. But if ARR gave any songs to KJY in Tamil, I am not aware of them. Likewise, he did give lots of songs to Chithra in the 90s but seemed to change his mind in the noughties whereas he had already started tapering it off w.r.t S Janaki (Erani/Margazhi Thingal are among the few I remember)

One song that comes to my mind immediately is 'patchai kiligal tholodu' from 'Indian'.

Janaki did not have many songs with Rahman. You are right about SPB and Chitra getting more songs under Rahman than KJY/SJ.

crimson king Sat Sep 14, 2013 1:24 pm

Yeah....lol, I had heard it at the time of release and put it down as an Unni Menon song. It never struck me that Rahman would also use the original rather than the 'follower' at times. Wink

isaifan Sat Sep 14, 2013 2:41 pm

crimson king,
I get what you are saying. He did give SPB/KJY more than one Wink

But, did he give them like 10-20 songs..in what 10-20 years? Shocked

IR did more than that each year..and to multiple singers. Hope you get the gripe. That is the limitation the post-91 co-MDs had. ARR himself had said in an interview that he uses new voices for freshness/variety!

They cannot (or did not want to) risk having SPB/KJY and KSC/SJ singing 6 songs of an album, as they cannot give freshness/variety otherwise (the variety and quality that IR gave for over 15 years). The co-MDs and inside-studio collaborations gave rise to psuedo-singers like Srinivas, who could not handle the competition and failed miserably. IR probably gave him 0 hit songs, and Srini still goes around commenting with that ego/acidity intact. So much for their talent and humility, these folks talk about a genius' (perceived) ego! He should be made to sing in SS with IR rating him rotfl2

Appo theiriyum.

The bottomline is, some wanted IR to be stopped (including directors). But, he has stood tall, over 20 years as per them (resulting in their ego/acidity problems, which they polishly shield with humility cover), and has creatively surpassed them all. He has a belief system, sticks to his principles, and is only reaching greater heights as a composer - the only complete composer. Our man just does not know how to talk pleasingly..and he need not please others. He can just please himself with his music, which will also please us. Wink

Anyway, had enough of this I guess. Just wishing for more albums like NEPV, Megha, Onayum Aatukuttiyum from IR each year tongue

**plum** Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:14 pm

http://venuvanamsuka.blogspot.in/2011/04/blog-post.html

I dont know why I didnt see this before.
Many of you might have seen it but it is a crime we havent documented it here

Pt Balesh, Shehnai artist, disciple of Bismillah Khan, who has played for IR's recordings, lays bare the difference between IR and other "music directors"

Also, note how a real artist like Balesh responds to IR's "sadistic" requirements" : he feels tense, feels the pressure, and at times, hopes that he doesnt even get a call from IR because he is afraid of the challenges IR will throw at him but instead of blaming IR for it, he admires and rightly adores IR for it as a great composer. THAT IS HOW a true artist will respond.
Hacks, and half baked will ofcourse throw epithets at IR, and try to demean the kind of artistry that they cannot even imagine of.

Most people in TN cannot think and understand such simple artistic truths but then let's document for those who have the ability to think and understand.

**plum** Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:21 pm

பல தென்னிந்திய, வட இந்திய திரையிசைகளில் ஷெனாயை சோக ரசத்துக்கு மட்டுமில்லாமல், சந்தோஷத்துக்கும் உபயோகப்படுத்தியிருக்கிறார்கள். ஆனால் அவை பெரும்பாலும் மரபு சார்ந்ததாகவே இருக்கும். ஆனால் இவர் அந்த மரபை மீறி ஷெனாய் வாத்தியத்தை முற்றிலும் நவீனப்படுத்தினார்.

பொதுவாக ஷெனாயை வீணை அல்லது தபேலாவைப் பின்னணியாக வைத்துதான் இசையமைப்பார்கள். ஆனால் ஷெனாயை, மிருதங்கம், ட்ரம்ஸ், தவில்,வயலின், கிதார் போன்ற எல்லா இசைக்கருவிகளோடும் ஒலிக்கவைத்தார். சொல்லிக்காட்டவே முடியாத பல வித்தியாசமான தாளகதிகளின் பின்னணியிலும் ஷெனாயைப் பயன்படுத்தியிருக்கிறார். புல்லாங்குழலோடு ஷெனாயை வாசிக்க முடியும் என்று யாராவது சொல்லியிருந்தால் நான் சிரித்திருப்பேன். ஆனால் ஒரு பாட்டில் ஷெனாய், புல்லாங்குழல் இரண்டையும் பயன்படுத்தினார். ஷெனாயை ஆண் குரல் போலவும், அது கேள்வி கேட்பதாகவும், புல்லாங்குழல் பெண்குரலில் பதில் சொல்வதைப் போலவும் ஒரு கற்பனை அது. ஏதோ ஒரு பாட்டின் இடையிசையில் வரும் சிறிய துணுக்குதான் அது. ஆனால் அதையும் அத்தனை நுணுக்கமாகத்தான் செய்கிறார். ஆனால் அவர் இசைக்குறிப்புகளை எழுதுவதைப் பார்த்தால் அவர் அதற்காக மெனக்கெடுவது போலவே தோன்றாது. எல்லா கஷ்டமும் வாசிக்கும் நமக்குதான். [சிரிக்கிறார்.]

**plum** Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:23 pm

பிற இசையமைப்பாளர்களுக்கும் இவருடைய இசையமைப்புக்கும் பெரிய வித்தியாசம் இருக்கிறது. அவர் பிடிகள், நுணுக்கங்களெல்லாம் சாதாரண ரசிகர்களும் ரசிக்கும் வகையில் எளிமையாகத் தெரிந்தாலும், அவை வாசிப்பதற்குக் கஷ்டமானவை. ஒரு Bar-இல் நான்கு நோட்ஸ் எழுதியிருக்கிறார் என்றால், ஒரு நோட்டுக்கும் இன்னொரு நோட்டுக்கும் இடையே இருக்கும் அசைவுகள் வெவ்வேறாக இருக்கும். அதேபோல ஒரு Bar-க்கும், அடுத்த Bar-க்கும் நோட்களின் அசைவுகள் வெவ்வேறாக இருக்கும். அதைப் புரிந்துகொண்டால்தான் சரியாக வாசிக்கமுடியும்.

ஷெனாயை ஒரே ஸ்ருதியில் வாசிப்பதென்றால் நிம்மதியாக வாசித்துவிடலாம். ஆனால் இவரோ பெரும்பாலும் ஸ்ருதியை மாற்றி மாற்றி வாசிப்பது போல்தான் அமைத்திருப்பார். சில ஸ்ருதிகளில் வாசிப்பது ரொம்ப கஷ்டம். ஸ்ருதி மாறும்போது ஸ்வரஸ்தானங்களுக்கான fingering-ஐ மாற்றவேண்டி வரும். நேரடிப் பதிவில் கை சட்டென்று மாறி அடுத்த ஸ்ருதிக்குச் சென்று தப்பில்லாமல் வாசிக்கவேண்டும். அதேபோல சில பாடல்களில் பாடலும், பிற கருவிகளும் ஒரு ஸ்ருதியிலும், ஷெனாய் வேறொரு ஸ்ருதியிலும் இருக்கும். இதெல்லாம் பிடிபடும்வரை அவரிடம் வாசிப்பது ரொம்ப கஷ்டம்.

இளையராஜா அவர்களுக்கு இந்தந்த இசைக்கருவி, இந்தந்த ஸ்ருதியில் இசைக்கவேண்டும் என்ற அடிப்படை லட்சணம் தெரியும். இதோ இந்தப் பாடலை ஷெனாயைக் கொண்டே துவக்குகிறார். மிகச் சரியான ஸ்ருதி இது. பாடலின் துவக்கத்திலிருந்தே வரும் ஷெனாயின் சௌகரியமான ஸ்ருதிக்காகவே முழுப்பாடலையும் அமைத்திருக்கிறார். இதற்கு நேர்மாறாக உற்சாக உச்ச ஸ்ருதியில் இந்தப் பாடலைத் துவக்குகிறார்பாருங்கள். இவர் எதை எப்படி அமைப்பார் என்பதை எங்களால் கணிக்கவே முடியாது.

பிற இசையமைப்பாளர்களிடம் வாசிக்கிறவர்கள் இவர் இசையை அவ்வளவு எளிதாக வாசித்துவிட முடியாது. அங்கே இசையமைப்பாளர் கொடுத்ததைத்தான் வாசிக்க வேண்டும் என்ற அவசியமில்லை. அவர் எழுதியிருப்பதை வாசிக்க முடியவில்லை என்றால் கொஞ்சம் அட்ஜெஸ்ட் செய்து அந்த ஸ்டைலில் தனக்கென்ன வருகிறதோ அதை வாசித்து விடலாம். ஆனால் இவரிடம் ஒரு நோட்டைக் கூட மாற்றி வாசித்துவிட முடியாது. தனக்கு என்ன தேவையோ அதை வெகு தெளிவாக நோட்ஸில் தந்திருப்பார். அது காட்சிக்கு மிகப் பொருத்தமானதாகவும் இருக்கும். இவரிடம் ஒருவர் வாசித்துவிட்டாரென்றால் உலகத்தில் வேறு எங்கே வேண்டுமானாலும் போய் வாசித்துவிடலாம். அதனால் இவரிடம் வாசிக்கும் ஒவ்வொருவருமே மிகப்பெரிய இசைக்கலைஞர்தான்.

ஒவ்வொரு நாளும் காலையில்தான் அன்று இளையராஜா அவர்களின் ரெக்கார்டிங் இருக்கிறதா எனத் தெரியவரும். காலை எட்டு மணி வரை அவருடைய மானேஜர் சுப்பையாவிடமிருந்து ஃபோன் வரவில்லையென்றால் நிம்மதியாக இருக்கும். ஃபோன் வந்துவிட்டால் ஒரே பதற்றமாகிவிடுவேன். ஸ்டுடியோவுக்குச் சென்று நோட்ஸ் வாங்கி ப்ராக்டீஸ் செய்து ரிகர்சல் பார்த்து, ரெக்கார்டிங் முடித்து மதியம் 12 மணிக்கு வெளியே வரும்வரை அந்தப் பதற்றம் நீடிக்கும். அவருடைய ரெக்கார்டிங் 12 மணிக்கெல்லாம் முடிந்துவிடும். அதற்குப்பிறகு மற்ற இசையமைப்பாளர்களிடம் வாசிக்கப்போவேன். இந்தப் பதற்றம் கொஞ்சநாட்கள், அதாவது ஐந்து வருடங்கள் வரை நீடித்தது.

crimson king Sat Sep 14, 2013 7:34 pm

isaifan wrote:crimson king,
I get what you are saying. He did give SPB/KJY more than one But, did he give them like 10-20 songs..in what 10-20 years? IR did more than that each year..and to multiple singers. Hope you get the gripe. That is the limitation the post-91 co-MDs had. ARR himself had said in an interview that he uses new voices for freshness/variety!

They cannot (or did not want to) risk having SPB/KJY and KSC/SJ singing 6 songs of an album, as they cannot give freshness/variety otherwise (the variety and quality that IR gave for over 15 years). The co-MDs and inside-studio collaborations gave rise to psuedo-singers like Srinivas, who could not handle the competition and failed miserably. IR probably gave him 0 hit songs, and Srini still goes around commenting with that ego/acidity intact. So much for their talent and humility, these folks talk about a genius' (perceived) ego! He should be made to sing in SS with IR rating him Appo theiriyum.

The bottomline is, some wanted IR to be stopped (including directors). But, he has stood tall, over 20 years as per them (resulting in their ego/acidity problems, which they polishly shield with humility cover), and has creatively surpassed them all. He has a belief system, sticks to his principles, and is only reaching greater heights as a composer - the only complete composer. Our man just does not know how to talk pleasingly..and he need not please others. He can just please himself with his music, which will also please us.

Anyway, had enough of this I guess. Just wishing for more albums like NEPV, Megha, Onayum Aatukuttiyum from IR each year

I think SPB would have very easily sung more than 20 songs for ARR. He had four hits just from one film Duet - Mettupodu, Kulicha, En Kadhalae, Anjali. That is the only aspect on which I want to correct you - he did use both SPB and Chithra regularly in the 90s. But I do agree with most of the rest of what all you said. ARR - or other composers - like to keep changing voices to give a fresh sound. They rely on attracting the attention of the public by making changes that are much more easily apparent, while IR seems to go more by his own convictions about whose voice would fit a particular track.

I don't really blame ARR though. It's film music and the public will get what they want. Once you get extremely relativist about music, then anything goes and there is no longer such a thing as a 'bar' or 'standard'. What do the people want to hear? Just some timepass or do they want music that appeals to certain aesthetic qualities? It's for the people to decide. There will always be entertainers who are more interested in satisfying the people's whims and fancies rather than explore the possibilities of their art.

I was glad to hear NEPV CDs had sold well. I hope that will be the case for not only Megha but other, future projects of IR as well. If people want to hear something on a record, they have to vote with their feet for it, there's no other way.

kiru Sat Sep 14, 2013 9:34 pm

@Plum - More than the direct references to IR. I see Balesh with a great amount of respect. He goes from details to concepts, very easily - the quality of the reeds, the newness of the instruments, the acoustics of naadhaswaram, the background for shehnai/naadhaswarm. To concepts like the value of raagams - "our forefathers preserved it for a reason". BTW, even though I am unable to identify raagams easily, I think this is one of the strengths of IR's music. There is a uniformity/continuity in the whole song and from the parts of the song, you can identify the song itself. Back to Baalesh. Oh my goodness. He is great. So much to learn. He is a Guru. Not many musicians, have articulated the nuances in IR's music also this well, that even I am able to understand. Note, he is pretty theoretically strong having learnt from the heavy weights and people especially in indian music are not used to notations. Looks like such a beast does exist (news to me). So this is what probably makes him a good musician to play IR's music. Looks like IR's music is 'music by design' not 'music by the ears'. This probably is one of the reasons, he is able to bring in so much nuances, as he is just 'writing' and can 'see things on paper' rather than having to play it himself or by another artiste and request changes.
Thanks so much for the link. Maybe this should go into the 'Resources/References/FAQ' section of this site.
(Sometimes I get the impression Hindustani people are more systematic than us south indians, I dont know why I got this impression - my college mate also from north-Karnataka - used to sing/listen Bhimsen Joshi , that is my only exposure - but this notation thing has impressed me about our northern brethren).

**V_S** Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:25 am

Thanks plum for sharing it here. The highlighted portions nails who Raja is and how his orchestration is. So overwhelmed by this flute and shehnai metaphor. I feel little happy as I mostly hear these metaphors when listening to his songs (as I had posted in the earlier forum in raja's duets). I used to think that time, if I am over analyzing, but when I read Raja had all this in mind when choosing the instruments (as we always say, he does not pick an instrument without any reason), feel elated.

After reading the article again, now I am feeling little guilty that how casually I listen to his songs and comment on it, while how difficult to even play those notes. I always thought the starting shehnai of yEh kiLi irukku pazham irukku from Mudhal mariyaathai and all the shehnai portions in Aan Paavam are the most toughest, but how soulful and easy it is to listen. That's the reason we got those 10000 glorious preludes and interludes and infinite BGMs, while others rush that time and aim to finish it soon in an uninspiring way. It is good that in a way they are getting exposed through their own mouth.

isaifan Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:31 pm

cromson king,
I agree about changes and general public interest. Our man himself has broken many rules right from the beginning, and does not believe in "rules". I was probably not being clear in my previous two posts about the (SPB) numbers. To put it in the right perspective, this was reacting to ARR's comment stating KJY turned many ordinary tunes in the past to great hits (which seemed like an indirect reference to IR). I do give him the benefit of doubt, but asked if he gave KJY 5 hits in 10 years? SPB did sing more than 20 songs (~50+?) for ARR in 10-20yrs (!), but are they great tunes/musical hits? Not all were great hits like Roja or Duet..could be ~20 in 20 years. Freshness was another factor they avoided KJY/SPB, in addition to their own limitations of not being able to come up with tunes worthy of KJY/SPB. And, IR had given great tunes/musical hits "each year" for ~15 years to multiple singers. noteworthy

It is funny to note ARR saying that to overcome singers' limitations, he changes the tunes..taking their inputs. This is what post-92 MDs like ARR have created and have given us semi-singers (SS) like Srinivas Evil or Very Mad

. But, IR being a tough master who keeps pushing the limits for himself (as MD) and singers like KJY/SPB, could not accept the limitations/complacency of a Srinivas. And this guy goes around making condescending comments from time-to-time on IR even when praising ARR (unlike Pt. Balesh as above), all because "he" failed!! thumbsdown

It is ironical that these folks talk about humility and try to project a genius as egoistic. IR has always been humble before art and real talent.

Unfortunately for them, IR is still going strong and reaching greater heights....as ravinat rightly mentioned in his review of OA BGMs in the OA thread. Anyway, time to get immersed in OA scores again..and again..and again. doublethumbsup

crimson king Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:44 pm

As I said before, the only time I have seen SPB pull out of a high note was when he was singing Ennai Kanavilaye (or rather the Hindi version) in a ARR concert sometime in the 90s. It was a highly publicised concert and IIRC Javed Jaffrey was one of the emcees too; perhaps you have watched it too. So I don't buy that argument from ARR; in my carefully considered but honest and blunt opinion, he is simply being intellectually dishonest to a great degree. ARR uses tech to disguise the limitations of a singer while making him/her render material that he might struggle to deliver live. IR almost always makes singers sing at a pitch that brings out the best texture of their voice...the right balance between brightness and 'bottom'/'darkness' by whatever name called. It was ARR who made Chithra hit very high notes like in Anjali; IR preferred giving her a somewhat lower pitch than S Janaki to emphasise the lovely husky undertone of her voice in low notes. But if ARR means to say stuff like complex gamakkams, I believe a trained singer should be able to execute IR's material. It is demanding, no doubt, but it is not THAT demanding either. It is not stuff that one has to be a Carnatic vidhvan to render, only well trained with a flexible voice. Things like agility and sruddhi srutham are important in singing and to deride that as masochism is, again, intellectually dishonest. And now many fans will lap up this relativist nonsense and we will have more Atif Aslams taking the mike while people like the gentleman who taught us singing for a company music function will never get opportunities in spite of being far more accomplished.

kiru Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:30 pm

Re: intellectual dishonesty - when asked whether the rhythm for a song (I think indian movie) was taken from a english song, Rahman replied "I have bought equipment now so that I can create all my rhythms" !! But he has been awarded an Oscar,,so what can we say !!!..
Every indian movie ..(last was sivaji, that I listened fully) has Rahman borrowing the rhythm arrangement from a english song, itwofs karthik, does not consider this copying, he only focusses on the tune (when confronted with this on tfmpage)

crimson king Sun Sep 15, 2013 6:03 pm

Rhythm loops are commonly used in many Western tracks. The track cited on itwofs may not be the only source for it, so I too don't consider that plagiarism. However, it is not a particularly original approach to composition. Another thing....once the composition proceeds with a pre set rhythmic loop as the basis, there is already less scope for complexity. Western classical music only uses percussion as an effect, not as a beat to punctuate each and every bar. In jazz, the beat pattern is kept simple so that there is a lot of space to develop the chords. It is interesting to me when the composer uses unusual time sigs...but a loop...it's ok, it has some novelty value and that's about it.

kiru Sun Sep 15, 2013 10:40 pm

Right.. but this is about "intellectual honesty" ... Even T. Rajender was a "music director" or even Bhagyaraj was .. but they did only the tunes and an arranger did the rest of the stuff. This is a known stuff.. but Rahman keeps everything shrouded in mystery. ..well atleast it was in the initial years.. Now the "classical" music or the "folk music" or the "rhythm" consultants are speaking up ..now that he has established himself. He is basically running a company that produces music.

fring151 Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:12 pm

Actually, I agree. But for SPB repeatedly stressing in concerts and tv shows how IR does everything himself, which almost no other MD today can claim, I would not have bothered probing into this aspect of the working style of present day MDs. I guess 99% of junta in India still assume ARR is the sole creator, but well, they don't really care abut the nitty-gritties of orchestration or arrangements either.

As I understand it now, ARR DOES regularly take the help of arrangers (Prasanna for Lagaan BGM as I learned only recently!) and bass guitar (Keith Peters) and solo instrumental sections (Sax in Anjali Anjali for example) are mostly improvised by the instrumentalists. This was a revelation to me!

The cruel irony of it all is that IR is often given bad press for not mentioning the names of musicians on album covers, which itself is patently false as some of app_engine's posts in the LP covers thread show. He DOES mention V.S Narasimhan as the solo violinist in Raajapaarvai, HTNI etc and Hariprasad Chaurasia in NBW. In other words, even though it is strictly and completely IR's own creation, he credits soloists where they have considerably lengthy instrumental parts. Otherwise, an LP or CD cover simply doesn't have enough space to list every single musician in his orchestra!

crimson king Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:21 am

^^^ On un-credited 'achievements', a few years back ARR had appeared as a guest in a TV music show and after somebody sang Chaiyya Chaiyya, he mentioned that it was basically a product of a jamming session between him and Sukhwinder Singh so he refused to take all the credit for it. On cue, thunderous applause for the humility of the man. But I have a question, does anybody have the cassette/CD of Dil Se and does it co credit Sukhwinder for the song? Because wikipedia credits all the compositions to Rahman. I would appreciate his magnanimity if he had officially shared credit for the song. Otherwise, acknowledging it years later in a TV programme is not going to accrue royalties to Sukhwinder. I am not going to assume he didn't because there were credits to some musicians for, say, percussion arrangements in the cassette of Bombay which are missing on wikipedia.

kiru Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:45 am

I guess this discussion on 'team' vs 'individual' methods of music making is purely 'academic'. The audience could care less, as long as the product as the 'look and feel' they are used to (Jobs does not do h/w or s/w development). The artiste/collaborators themselves dont care because by aligning with him, they make more money than they would by themselves. It all amounts to how powerful the tune creator IS (even though, that itself is not 100%). Sounds more like a 'product management' driven software development.
As Usha mentioned, IR might be the last of the master composers. Actually, he is very unique, because I guess even his predecessors used "assistants". IR found it "not right" to use other people's creativity and put one's name on it. He specifically did not want to use "assistants" for this very approach. He even felt bad for getting applause on the streets for sing MSV's tune to different lyrics. Oh well.. so much for individual achievement.

fring151 Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:50 am

Well, Kiru, you took the words out of my mouth. The bottom line is people don't care. Actually even I don't care THAT MUCH. My only wish is that the albums be credited to 'ARR band' or 'ARR and co' and people recognise them as such. Instead what I observe is both junta and media are eager to give all the credit to ARR, and what is worse, the tamil media is always keen to compare him to IR which is, in light of the above discussion an absurd comparison.

crimson king,

Even if ARR lists the musicians, people by default assume ARR composed and the musicians simply played their parts (ironic huh?)...hmm actually come to think of it, most don't even care for the details. Well, one can't blame ARR for that. In the end analysis, I put the blame squarely on our media and audience's perceptiveness.

kiru Mon Sep 16, 2013 9:42 am

fring - I agree with you. Our society needs to mature a bit to identify the excellent from the good. One of the reasons there is still some 'brain drain' (especially in the non-software sector) . Putting people of different caliber into one bucket, can lead to frustration and ultimately losing that person from producing anything beneficial to the society. Society keeps running with the bulk of the good people operating it, but progress is made by the 'cream'.

crimson king Mon Sep 16, 2013 5:12 pm

Yeah, if ARR gives appropriate credits and the audience doesn't care, it is not ARR's fault at all. But jamming together to originate a composition is a much bigger input than people handling arrangement and conducting duties and credits ideally ought to be shared between the collaborators. I am not interested really in who of ARR or IR has innum periya manasu because I am much more interested in the music. But it's the ARR camp that constantly tries to run IR down by claiming he was selfish and dominating and usurped credit and this and that. If Sukhwinder did jam with ARR and went uncredited, that doesn't make a great case for ARR setting great standards. If a team is involved, the team as a whole deserves the credit. That the opportunity to work with ARR is in itself valuable is another matter. In the West, credits are apportioned appropriately (notwithstanding several disputes over credits over the years Laughing

) and I agree with both of you that India has a long way to go in that regard.

fring151 Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:09 pm

I agree entirely. That is why I said I wish the albums or songs were at the very minimum credited to something like 'The ARR band' or 'ARR and co', if not explicitly to ARR and Sukhwinder Singh etc, because, come to think of it, this jamming to originate a song is exactly how a band works and NOT how a composer in the real sense of the word does.

app_engine Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:12 pm

fring151 wrote: what is worse, the tamil media is always keen to compare him to IR which is, in light of the above discussion an absurd comparison.

That is exactly the ONLY thing that irks me most of the time. (Remember, I created a thread in this forum on this..."why IR is simply NOT...")

The funny thing is, ARR had wrested the TFM market top spot from IR (and most top directors, actors, prod houses etc with that - even helping some of them become bankrupt in the process Laughing

), got all the commercial successes in music fields, foreign accolades that most Indian musicians of the past could have never dreamt of (Golden Globe, Oscar, Hollywood market, "mozart of madras" etc).

Still, his followers are not satisfied with all such glory - they mainly want to prove that "ARR is better than IR" Laughing

Which is the reason for all such media comparisons all the time - as well as vayiththerichchals on social networks by the likes of "singer" Srinivas when Gautam glorified IR, petty manipulations of TV singing competitions, local award manipulations and now finally a kuppai interview by their idol himself - badmouthing rAsA's music making style.

Question to ARR -
அய்யா நீர் தான் உலகம் முழுவதும் பிரபலம் ஆச்சே, பெறகு வெறும் லோக்கல் ஆன ஒரு ஆள "சாடிஸ்ட்"னு திட்ட உமக்கு என்ன அவசியம்?

தாழ்வு மனப்பான்மையா? Inferiority complex?

ஐயோ பாவம்! rotfl2

kiru Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:14 pm

One needs to be top-talent with extreme confidence to work closely with IR. Otherwise, you would be shaken by his virtuosity and his confidence. People like Balu Mahendra are never shaken but you can see some 'complex' even in Mani Ratnam 's comments - "to him it is conceptualized in his mind and it is only a matter of execution after that, I wish I could be like that". Either he is hinting that is not necessarily a practicable work style or just being honest about the "theoretical/design" approach of IR.
I have a feeling that ARR is annoyed that IR "would not just go away". Instead, he seems to be doing things (like NEPV, Megha :-) ) now and then and he feels pressurized to respond. My guess is, Rahman never was interested in orchestral music, he gives "arranging" strings work to somebody else - his comments were "I am interested in world music" , "what is the point in using so many instruments if you cannot capture the emotions". He has been reluctantly thrown into the orchestral world. He would have been quite happy with drum machines, synthesizer and samplers, is my guess. Even though Rahman does not work for IR anymore, the "boss" still keeps bothering him, bad bad IR :-)
(@app - my suspicions are sort of like yours)

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