Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  Drunkenmunk on Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:38 am

fring151 wrote:Apart from what I said earlier, another point is that IR always writes down the score on paper notating not just the melody line, but also chords and instruments. Like CK said, IR has a very clear overall vision of his music, but not just that, he also writes it all down note for note. So the logical part of my brain insists that any improvisation or addition would have to be over what has already been composed and transcribed into western notation. And this, IR approves if he feels it fits in with the overall theme and atmosphere of the song or piece. Further these are occasional instances, not the norm. I am ok with all of this, except the Nee paartha paarvai story, IF it is true.
The solution would be for Ilayathalam to release the score sheets for Nee Paartha Razz

And CK, all that is common with OPN, RDB and Naushad. IR is Nero, when he refuses to entertain inputs from lesser musicians and doesn't acknowledge musicians in the covers because he composes, arranges and records his score without an asst's help, would actually be justified in being a Nero IMO if people ask for credit. Or are you driving at a different point here?

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  crimson king on Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:42 am

I think you missed the sarcasm in that last line. I am saying it is gumbal that is using something that is very normal in the music industry to paint IR as a Nero depriving people of credit and impoverishing them (yeah, because Viji's alcohol fix has nothing whatsoever to do with his current plight, right?).

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  crimson king on Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:46 am

In India, people freewheel with facts and attach more importance to sentiments, especially a feeling of being 'needy' and 'oppressed'.  The queen manipulator Lata Mangeshkar used this very effectively to paint all music directors as villains and demand her share in royalties.  Last I checked, royalties are given for intellectual property and a performance, no matter how superlative, is not intellectual property.  Rafi was right and yet not only she but Rafi's own needy, weak minded family have painted him as a simpleton who did not know what was happening.  The singer may negotiate higher fees for the performance but royalty is only given to a composer.  Lata is celebrated in the playback industry as some kind of crusader angel for doing something that was, in principle, wrong.

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  Drunkenmunk on Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:47 am

crimson king wrote:I think you missed the sarcasm in that last line. I am saying it is gumbal that is using something that is very normal in the music industry to paint IR as a Nero depriving people of credit and impoverishing them (yeah, because Viji's alcohol fix has nothing whatsoever to do with his current plight, right?).
Oh appidi. Yeah got you. And for the overall point, we are concurrent with all things considered, except Nee Paartha Paarvai. Yeppa forumargale, someone get to Ilayathalam soon and convince them to release the original score sheets (which would have the date also) of Nee Paartha Paarvaikku. Also, my upload of IR's intree with SB on Hey Ram is where he says with pride about "every note being his". So Viji's account on Nee Paartha will be met with deep suspicion from me.


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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  Drunkenmunk on Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:47 am

crimson king wrote:In India, people freewheel with facts and attach more importance to sentiments, especially a feeling of being 'needy' and 'oppressed'.  The queen manipulator Lata Mangeshkar used this very effectively to paint all music directors as villains and demand her share in royalties.  Last I checked, royalties are given for intellectual property and a performance, no matter how superlative, is not intellectual property.  Rafi was right and yet not only she but Rafi's own needy, weak minded family have painted him as a simpleton who did not know what was happening.  The singer may negotiate higher fees for the performance but royalty is only given to a composer.  Lata is celebrated in the playback industry as some kind of crusader angel for doing something that was, in principle, wrong.
Amen.

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  Drunkenmunk on Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:49 am

crimson king wrote:Actually I seem to remember reading that the chords for Nee Partha Paarvai were already written by LS and since the visuals with piano keys being played (?) were already shot, it was decided not to change the chords and simply work around it to come up with a new composition.  Now which of these is true.
Nope. Kamal has said he plays the original keys and IR's chords sync with what he played. He says IR's chords. IR tells Santhana Bharathi it's his music; every note of it, and we have Viji's account. I'm going with Kamal and IR.

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  fring151 on Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:51 am

Munk, can you also re-share the excerpt from IR's book where he talks about playing NPP to Lazslo Kovacs? Can't recall where you shared it earlier and what his exact words were. Would help to read both these accounts side by side and decide if it is possible for both to be simultaneously true. Of course, in one case we have IR's own words, in the other Viji's BUT, and a BIG BUT, through a semi-literate Tamil magazine intermediary.


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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  crimson king on Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:51 am

Ah.  In that case, I also would go along with Kamal since we know he used to take a lot of interest in the music making process.

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  Drunkenmunk on Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:57 am

I transcribed this from IR's autobiography:

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s0ar00 did not alter a word even while transcribing/translating.

Kamal's interview on Hey Ram:



Note how Viji says Kamal and Raaja were there when he played and they were happy and here Kamal says it was IR's chords. And Kamal is NOT a semi-literate when it comes to music. Resting my case till conclusive proof comes hopefully through the original score sheets.

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  fring151 on Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:10 am

Thanks DM. Ya makes this Tamil magazine intree somewhat suspect.

On Lataji, I bumped into this old interview recently. Ridiculous her sense of self-importance!
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/music/news-and-interviews/I-have-a-fierce-temper-Lata-Mangeshkar/articleshow/16538842.cms?referral=PM

Why were you angry with Sachin Dev Burman?
He was quoted in an article saying, "Who made Lata's career? We did. We gave her the songs." I don't know if he was misquoted but we didn't talk for three to four years. Till his son Pancham (R D Burman) mediated. When Burman Sr called, I was still very angry and spoke to him very curtly. Then he said, "Lata, tu aaja, tujhe gana hai" and my anger evaporated. We broke the ice with the song Mora gora ang layee le in Bandini.

THAT IS A FACT. Now this is what is called arrogance, with due respect to her undeniably staggering talent as a singer.

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  Drunkenmunk on Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:13 am

fring151 wrote:Thanks DM. Ya makes this Tamil magazine intree somewhat suspect.

On Lataji, I bumped into this old interview recently. Ridiculous her sense of self-importance!
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/entertainment/music/news-and-interviews/I-have-a-fierce-temper-Lata-Mangeshkar/articleshow/16538842.cms?referral=PM

Why were you angry with Sachin Dev Burman?
He was quoted in an article saying, "Who made Lata's career? We did. We gave her the songs." I don't know if he was misquoted but we didn't talk for three to four years. Till his son Pancham (R D Burman) mediated. When Burman Sr called, I was still very angry and spoke to him very curtly. Then he said, "Lata, tu aaja, tujhe gana hai" and my anger evaporated. We broke the ice with the song Mora gora ang layee le in Bandini.

THAT IS A FACT. Now this is what is called arrogance, with due respect to her undeniably staggering talent as a singer.
Hahaha. Gargantuan arrogance that deserves to be mocked mercilessly. TBF, Tamil society has not had such a singer with a misplaced sense of arrogance. irundhurukkaNum. appo theriyin magane (though TMS came close, he is nowhere near Lata in self-righteous BS). And the 1 composer who put her in her place was Sajjad Hussain.


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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  crimson king on Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:15 am

Ha, not a word about Naushad Ali, about her eternally loyal poodles LP and MM is only mentioned in a less than savoury light.  Typical Lata interview.  At least I appreciate her candour in admitting she's far from perfect because I've heard fans describe her as humble and had a good laugh about it. And I bet she liked singing with Kishore because he didn't always own her in the duets (esp not the semi classical ones like Is Mod where he sounded laboured) unlike Rafi who beat the daylights out of her every time. Razz

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  Drunkenmunk on Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:30 am

crimson king wrote:Further, if he did properly credit the musicians and just could not get their names printed on a cassette cover and the vayatherichal is over payment issues, then I would blame the musicians for trying to misrepresent facts and deliberately tarnish IR's image.
Noting this only now.

For posterity:



Vairamuthu guy on IR on VS Narasimhan:

https://soundcloud.com/mrnags/whyrajaisgod

IR is an autocratic dictator'nu evanaavadhu sollattumE Razz you know what to plug.

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  crimson king on Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:32 am

Yeah, I know. Because IR telling DD (the whole of India in other words) that Viji is the best keyboardist in the country has no value.  I am afraid Viji is only demonstrating through this episode why he is Viji Manuel and not Ilayaraja.

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  fring151 on Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:43 am

I read somewhere recently that after Madan Mohan's death, an arranger named Sonik who had worked with him on a few occasions claimed that he had in fact composed a couple of well-known MM songs all by himself. Another person also made some such claim. The logical question that arises and which Sanjeev Kohli (MM's son) posed is that, if these people were so talented then why couldn't they compose even one song of the same style or quality as MM while working by themselves or with others (Sonik apparently scored a couple of movies).

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  crimson king on Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:48 am

Sonik Omi did in fact compose some beautiful numbers in their time.  Mere Mehboob Tum Mujhko, Dono Ne Kiya come to mind readily.  Would not like to minus Rafi's contribution from that to see what remains.   Razz  I was not aware if Sonik Omi ever were MM's assistants.  If that was so, it is certainly possible.  My contention is that again it is only composing in a manner of speaking, in a strictly pedantic sense.  It would still be within the framework of what MM would do anyway.  Just as how Napoleon is supposed to have done some re-recording bits at times in mid 90s?    I think it is extremely inappropriate to first off all say that after a person's death because that person cannot defend himself anymore.  Secondly, it must always be appropriately worded such as it only clarifies the nature of their working relationship and should not come across as finger pointing.  Unfortunately, artists can often be insecure people given the complete unpredictability of the work-rewards ratio in their field.  So they can easily get misled by 'wellwishers' to say things they are better off not saying.  It puts it even more in perspective as to why IR often distanced himself from a lot of industry people, even going to the extent of saying Panju Arunachalam was his only true friend.  Because with friends like the ones Viji seems to keep, who needs enemies.

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  fring151 on Wed Oct 15, 2014 10:56 am

Oh ok. Wasn't aware of Sonik Omi. I think I came across it in one of the articles on this website - http://www.madanmohan.in/ Can't locate it now.

But see this for example now- http://www.madanmohan.in/html/tribute/collegues/bhupendra_singh.html

There were many artistes who worked with Madanji. And all of them were geniuses. Master Sonik, Ghanshyam, Gyan Verma, Kesri Lord.... so many names. All were greats in their own way. Master Sonik has shown his mastery in so many songs of Madanji and made all his numbers immortal. Madanji used to have only two musicians accompanying him during the rehearsal of a song in his music room. Nobody would know the real final shape of the song. Only Madanji was aware of it. While rehearsing and polishing a song, the whole canvas would emerge in the minds of the musicians. This was his style which nobody could match. He used to explain his thinking and imagination of the song to Master Sonik. Masterji would then design the arrangement, matching it with Madanji's visualization. If an arrangement fell short of his expectation, Madanji would get upset. He could get very angry. I have witnessed what a stickler to perfection he was. He always insisted for a peculiar tone from the violins and his team of violinists would necessarily have to render it beautifully. I would sum it up by saying that he had a strong team who could read his mind correctly.

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  fring151 on Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:07 am

Found it. 
http://www.indianmelody.com/mmohanarticle1.htm


There was a very good arranger called Sonik who later became a composing duo with his nephew, Sonik-Omi. Sonik would arrange the songs for my father. Omi, who was the spokesperson of the two, said in an interview after my father died, that most of Madan Mohan's tunes were composed by Sonik. My question to them is--why didn't Sonik-Omi come up with one memorable tune when they were on their own?


My father's favourite sitar player was the renowned Rais Khan. If you've heard the Madan Mohan compositions carefully, you'd know that the sitar base is very crucial. Rais Khan claimed that he had composed all the sitar interludes. It's possible that he did. The point is, they sat together and worked in a room


Looks like this sort of stuff happens all the time!

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  crimson king on Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:10 am

@ fring Exactly.  So he was basically making up for a dimension in which MM may not have had expertise.  Just as how the great guitarist Larry Carlton was, in his own words, the interface between Fagen and Becker and the musicians.  He wrote out notes for the musicians to translate their complex vision and make the musicians understand what they needed to play.  Of course he was too mature to claim that he was anywhere near as crucial a creative component of Steely Dan as Becker and Fagen, at least not that I know of.  The point is that composing is a creative activity.  If a composer delegates to an assistant to craft the composition as per his requirements, which is what probably happened in IR's case, that does not tantamount to Viji or anybody else actually composing the music themselves.  Because it's simply them trying to imitate their master's voice, it's not their own.  Ahem, such delegation is also usually done in good faith and the belief that the assistants will not indulge in insubordination later on.  Alas, musicians can be fickle.

I can understand where some of this angst comes from.  When I was in a Big Four firm, I used to draft articles that were to be published in the Partner's name in leading newspapers.  Privately, we used to grumble that we had to do this thankless job, on top of our already heavy workload, with no expectation of credit.  But I would never ever reveal that in a public forum and give out the name of the partner because, however terrible his interpersonal skills, I respect him for giving me an opportunity I really needed in my progress along the corporate ladder.  What Viji says about him subb-ing for Raja is fine as long as it is very, very clear that he was only subb-ing.  If he is beginning to have pretensions that he could have done all the compositions had he not martyred his immense talent for Raja's sake, that is really too bad, is all I can say.

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  crimson king on Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:12 am

fring151 wrote:Found it. 
http://www.indianmelody.com/mmohanarticle1.htm


There was a very good arranger called Sonik who later became a composing duo with his nephew, Sonik-Omi. Sonik would arrange the songs for my father. Omi, who was the spokesperson of the two, said in an interview after my father died, that most of Madan Mohan's tunes were composed by Sonik. My question to them is--why didn't Sonik-Omi come up with one memorable tune when they were on their own?


My father's favourite sitar player was the renowned Rais Khan. If you've heard the Madan Mohan compositions carefully, you'd know that the sitar base is very crucial. Rais Khan claimed that he had composed all the sitar interludes. It's possible that he did. The point is, they sat together and worked in a room


Looks like this sort of stuff happens all the time!


You bet!  Rais Khan and MM actually fell out.  I was not aware of Rais Khan's claims.  It could have been the reason they fell out.  I tend to side with the composers in such cases unless there's really strong evidence that the composer was a HG Wells-like fraud and the assistant was genuinely wronged.  In IR's case, there's too much anecdotal evidence of his ability to write music literally on the tap for me to give too much credence to these grumblings.

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  crimson king on Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:21 am

Great article.  Always love to read SK's reminiscences.  While we are on that, let me take the liberty to tell you that my father once wrote an article based on listening to MM songs on the radio and connecting it to the progress of one's own life.  It probably got published in some magazine but they never sent us a complimentary copy.   Razz  Anyway, dad shared the article with SK.  He liked it so much that he mailed us a CD with the making of Veer Zara as well as tributes to MM, absolutely free. I didn't know that Lata had been so kind to MM's family post his death.  I will warn my father never to go overboard in praising Rafi on the MM facebook page in future.   Razz

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  Drunkenmunk on Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:22 am

Unrelated to this thread, but what is this thing on HG Wells being a fraud? Link milegaa?

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  crimson king on Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:24 am

Have read that his landmark book The Outline of History was plagiarized from a struggling female author.  Apparently she didn't have the wherewithal to fight him in court.  Let me look for the link.

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  crimson king on Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:25 am

Link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outline_of_History#Unproven_allegations_of_plagiarism

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Re: Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 3

Post  Drunkenmunk on Wed Oct 15, 2014 11:27 am

crimson king wrote:Link here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outline_of_History#Unproven_allegations_of_plagiarism
Tenk you.

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