RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

One point which I wanted to write about yesterday but forgot:  does anybody know how much time MSV/TKR used to give to the singers to prepare for their songs?  I know IR didn't give a whole lot of time and I wouldn't be surprised if his predecessor(s) was doing the same thing.  Whereas in Hindi, they used to give a lot of time to the singers to prepare.  C Ramachandra didn't think so and had a bone with Rafi for that very reason, because he took a long time to get ready for the song.  Well, naturally he missed the bus on Rafi.  SJ used to compose fast but yet gave a lot of time to get the singer ready.  Apparently, more than a week for Mukesh to get ready for Jaane Kahan Gaye Woh Din!  And getting ready here doesn't mean just shruti suttam.  I don't think that generation of singers would have needed more than a few rehearsals to nail the song.  Rather, several sessions to hone the tone of the singer to match the mood of the song and also, more importantly, to allow them to explore all possible inflections and expressions until they really nailed the feeling residing in the composition.  I have a nagging feeling they don't stress this aspect enough in TFM and it is to their detriment.  I don't think MSV had much to envy technically as compared to his Hindi peers, maybe Salil's ability to write notations at the most. Certainly Raja too didn't have to envy the Hindi oldies even if he did respect the hell out of them.  But they should have imo strove harder to coax the feeling out of the singer.  It may be a Hindustani-Carnatic difference thing also.  Hindustani music is much slower and more drawn out to the point of being downright boring at times but also much more mystical.  It takes time to extract a beautiful tone from a singer because the voice is an imperfect instrument.  But when the composer does so, the effect is magical.  MSV/IR enjoyed the gift of great singers at their beck and call and perhaps could have done more with them.  They did get more out of their singers than later composers, though, so I am just saying this in comparison to the Hindi greats.

crimson king wrote:I would only disagree on the point of Aadmi vis a vis Alaya Mani.  They are different soundtracks; I would not say Aadmi didn't rise up to the level of Alaya Mani.  They are both very consistent soundtracks and both cater to the divergent tastes of their respective markets.  To my Hindi-influenced sensibilites, Satti Suthadadha sounds overwrought and heavygoing compared to the majestic, mystical Aaj Purani Raahon Se.  PS def beats the Lata solos, that's for sure.  Even going beyond personal tastes, both Aadmi and Dil Ek Mandir are regarded as landmark soundtracks in their own right.  Only Saathi went under the radar

Completely agree on these points.

plum wrote:

crimson king wrote:I would only disagree on the point of Aadmi vis a vis Alaya Mani.  They are different soundtracks; I would not say Aadmi didn't rise up to the level of Alaya Mani.  They are both very consistent soundtracks and both cater to the divergent tastes of their respective markets.  To my Hindi-influenced sensibilites, Satti Suthadadha sounds overwrought and heavygoing compared to the majestic, mystical Aaj Purani Raahon Se.  PS def beats the Lata solos, that's for sure.  Even going beyond personal tastes, both Aadmi and Dil Ek Mandir are regarded as landmark soundtracks in their own right.  Only Saathi went under the radar

Completely agree on these points.

I think paalum pazhamum vs mera pyar bhi could be same as poongatru vs ae zindagi.

paalum pazhamumu ku indhi lyrics pOttA nursery rhymeAtttam varudhu

lol, can't even imagine that tune with Hindi lyrics.

I tried. prathyEgamA imagine this in TMS voice

Dil ne dil se pyar kiya hai
janmon ka ethbaar kiya hai
tere kadmon par hi jeena
tere kadmon par hi marna..

I just checked the video of paalum pazhamum song.  I guess it actually corresponds to Husn e Jaana Idhar Aa? That makes it even more different from the Tamil version.  I guess Mera Pyaar is the equivalent of Naan Pesa Ninaipadhellam.  Again, very different.  They are worlds apart culturally, though IR did try to find common ground in many ways.

CR,

Thanks for the comments. I understand your POV wrt Hindi sensibilities so maybe I should have added an IMO part there. I personally am not enamored too much by either Aadmi or Dil Ek Mandir soundtracks. Yes, 'aaj purani' is good but overall I felt 'Aadmi' was a notch lower than its counterpart. 

Coming to Plum's point, well we can find enough nursery rhymes in Hindi music as well  Basically Vishwanathan Ramamurthy were not known for complex compositions. They were doing simple compositions which were endearing.

I guess rather his point was if you tried to write Hindi words for the Paalum Pazhamum tune, it would sound like a nursery rhyme.  It is very difficult to write Hindi words for a tune originally written for Tamil or vice versa, the meter is totally different.  This gets even more hilarious when Vaali's ultra cool Tanglish lyrics for Rahman were rewritten for the Hindi versions.  Unnaku Thada was horrible in Hindi, likewise Urvasi (which is VM?).

CR,

Yes, I have also heard of Hindi singers being given lot of time to rehearse. In MSV's time also, there was lot of time given for rehearsals from what I heard. I am sure it would have been the same in Telugu. I wonder how much rehearsal was done before they nailed 'Sivasankari'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRZxCNNr-RQ

CR,

Ah OK. That is true.

Part 8 of MSV series: The birth of MSV : http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/08/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-8.html

Sorry but I have to disagree again on "If we take those times (1965-1970) we must admit that in the Indian film music MSV was one of the earliest music directors who moved to a more western sounding 'sound'. The other would be S D Burman who had some superb modern numbers during that period. The other music directors somehow did not have as much flair for the western idiom as these two music directors. Shankar Jaikishen, the popular duo of those times, their followers Kalyanji Anandji and Lakshmikanth Pyarelal were still seeped in the more classical Hindi film music idiom. "


Not really, as Shammi Kapoor and SJ became a hit team, their Western influence increased steadily and also crossed over into non Shammi films. Love in Tokyo had both the title track and Aaja Re Aa Zara.  It was from 1966.  Evening in Paris from 1967...name says it all.  Lovely guitar especially on Raat Ke Humsafar.  O P Nayyar's Pukartha chala hoon main anyway derives the signature music from a Western composition...when I say derive, I mean it is copied lock stock and barrel.  And the tune also is quite Westernised.  LP had O My Love as well as Ruth Bekarar Hai.  This is just off the top of my head.  I don't know how many of these tunes are original but likewise I know that Paartha Nyabagam Illayo is ripped from Sway with me.  So if we focus on the concept of Westernisation, MSV wasn't any further ahead on the curve than his Hindi peers.  The game changer was R D Burman who brought a rock music-based focus on rhythm, especially riffs to Indian film music in a big way.  Others had tried it fleetingly but it was an all pervasive part of his music.  And I suspect most, if not all, of the Western based songs of S D in the mid-late 60s period had R D's guiding hand behind them.  I read it in a musical bio of R D Burman that it was he who persuaded SD to incorporate saxophone in the iconic Rafi solos of the Guide soundtrack and also he who basically composed those saxophone sections.  S D was not comfortable with the instrument and altogether didn't like it very much but SJ were using it and very successfully.   Not much is known about the mild, soft spoken Jaikishan but Shankar was a big braggart who overrated himself.  Nevertheless, it has to be said they were trendsetters in the Hindi world and pushed its Westernisation, indeed popularised Westernised dance tracks which otherwise did not enthuse Hindi composers much seemingly.  S D and Salil did have Westernised numbers in the 50s but they were kind of stately, drawing room music for upper middle class intelligensia and too classy to become chartbusters in the way the Shammi Kapoor songs of the 60s did.  I think the Bhadralok composers' reluctance to come to the mainstream of Hindi music ultimately cost them, especially Salil Da. Naushad had the same problem; sample his tame, reluctant stab at dance music with Mujhe Duniawalon.  R D helped S D deliver big hits in the 60s with Guide, Jewel Thief and Aradhana (in which the two songs that became a rage were out and out RD; even veteran arranger Cawas Lord who worked on Roop Tera Mastana confirmed it).

Sounds like SAR had read Sureshji's articles and given this interview :wondering:

Interesting to see SJ's tribute includes MTK besides pOlicekAran magaL, the only two albums that are talked about

CR,

Thanks for the comments. While SJ definitely did bring in the western part I do feel MSV's westernization is a notch better than SJ. Ofcourse lot of folks did rip off directly from the west. I think even 'Vishwanathan Velai Vendum' is a western tune. Also the iconic 'kalyana samayal sadham' is a rip off of 'Laughing Policeman'. 

I am planning to dedicate one part of this series (or atleast most of it) to R D Burman and his All India influence and how that impacted music directors including MSV.

app,

Raaga_Suresh wrote:CR,

Thanks for the comments. While SJ definitely did bring in the western part I do feel MSV's westernization is a notch better than SJ. Ofcourse lot of folks did rip off directly from the west. I think even 'Vishwanathan Velai Vendum' is a western tune. Also the iconic 'kalyana samayal sadham' is a rip off of 'Laughing Policeman'. 

I am planning to dedicate one part of this series (or atleast most of it) to R D Burman and his All India influence and how that impacted music directors including MSV.

Yeah, my argument was more with regard to your statement that SJ were stuck in classical in the 60s.  Not really, they were at the forefront of westernising Hindi music.  Melody wise, I do find MSV's Western songs more convincing than SJ.  SJ bluffed a lot but their tunes were catchy and Rafi took care of the rest.  Ravi is an interesting outlier.  Generally known for classical and folk tunes but he composed Baar Baar Dekho in 1961, already the archetypal Shammi Kapoor song.  

Yes, that will be very interesting.  RD definitely had a seismic impact on the music scene.  IR was able to combine the grace of the older composers (Hindi, Tamil, Telugu, Kannada) with the vigour of RDB, which is why he was/is so impossibly versatile.  Had all bases covered.

 எம்.எஸ்.வி. - கண்ணதாசனின் காதலர்!

Homage by Mu.Mehta !

crimson king wrote:


Yeah, my argument was more with regard to your statement that SJ were stuck in classical in the 60s.  Not really, they were at the forefront of westernising Hindi music.  Melody wise, I do find MSV's Western songs more convincing than SJ.  SJ bluffed a lot but their tunes were catchy and Rafi took care of the rest.  Ravi is an interesting outlier.  Generally known for classical and folk tunes but he composed Baar Baar Dekho in 1961, already the archetypal Shammi Kapoor song.  

Yes, that will be very interesting.  RD definitely had a seismic impact on the music scene.  IR was able to combine the grace of the older composers (Hindi, Tamil, Telugu, Kannada) with the vigour of RDB, which is why he was/is so impossibly versatile.  Had all bases covered.

Yes, SJ did do western style songs and somehow as you mention I did not find their melodies as convincing as MSV. We may disagree here but I do feel that inspite of his versatility Rafi's voice did have that classical touch which someone doesn't work well for me in some of the western songs. I find TMS to be more effective in such songs. Again could be our personal bias.

MSV Part 9: http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/08/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-9.html

MSV Part 10: The Trendsetters. (This part is not about MSV) : http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/08/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-10.html

Raaga_Suresh wrote:MSV Part 10: The Trendsetters. (This part is not about MSV) : http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/08/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-10.html

Very impressive post, Sureshji! 

Your repository is just too huge with a lot of info!

Lot of songs and information (actually information "overload" for my brain  )

Great job!

Thanks App.

Fantastic set of articles Sureshji  . Lots of songs to listen, especially the HFM ones.

Thanks Rajkumar. Please do listen to the songs. They are very nice.