RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Raaga_Suresh wrote:Usha,

Ha Ha Ha Ha.

We did have an argument about SPB but it was respect to his English pronunciation. I felt and still feel his pronunciation is horrible when he sings English. You feel he is OK. Other than that we never had any major arguments there. Ofcourse I have no reservation is agreeing to the greatness of SPB as a singer.

Suresh,
...... thanks for the response.....yes.. endha argumentsum kedaiyadhu dhan....... support dhan senju irukeenga. spb english ku sonnadhu thani.
analum...... spb rendition endru... oru samayam nyabagam. adharku than.. niraiya IR songs..... Spb padinadhu.. sonnen.

spbyin bhavam romba nanraga irukum endru solli..... gana kuyile kannuram ponadhadi.. paatai than kadaisiyaga sonnadhaga nyabagam....... adharku
than unga reply apppadi.......

End Dig.......

Raaga_Suresh wrote:Ravi,

Discussing singers can be as dangerous as discussing actors ) So I will pass

I totally respect that view. No issues with that.

I became a fan of SPB before I became a fan of any other musician, RD came next, and finally Raja and JW. But SPB stayed on forever.

To all the new singers, there is only one thing that I have to state - If you are as good as the 5 songs sang by SPB in 1966, you have a bright future. I am yet to see somebody that is as good as him in 1966.

Let me not hijack this thread away from MSV.

One piece of feedback on the early 70s that can win fewer friends for me here.

Apart from MSV, even Kannadasan started writing crappy lyrics at that time. Mangai/Gangai, Angam/thangam type garbage that contributed to the slide of both friends.

I am sure some of you may not like what I have said here, but I was getting very tired of these type of lyrics from KD in those years and chose to hear RD instead, with lyrics from an unknown language

Ravi,

You are right on the money wrt Kannadasan. Like MSV he would once in a while come up with outstanding stuff ('ezhu swarangalukul', 'deivam thanda veedu' etc) but wrote a lot of ordinary lyrics. I plan to cover the Kannadasan part next week.

I agree with Ravi that Yesudas may have started off better and SPB had a longer learning curve but once he found his voice, he seemed to be game for anything whereas Yesu had a narrower comfort zone.  Esp in those late 80s/early 90s duets with Chithra, he ended up sounding uncle-ish.  I am thinking of Thendral Dhan from Keladi Kanmani where she is at her breezy best and Yesu can't quite muster the desired energy for the song.  Would have probably gone to SPB if he hadn't also acted in the film.  


Also agree with Suresh on SPB's English pronunciation.  For that matter, his Hindi pronunciation is terrible too. Not just the pronunciation but he just kind of over complicated it, his interpretations of the songs weren't very inspiring.  He may have a language problem with Hindi but he has listened to lot many of the Hindi greats' songs and I was disappointed in that aspect.  Anyhow, while I credit MSV for giving SPB and Yesu lots of songs, ultimately SPB only found his voice through IR and Yesu too was pushed to sing more interesting compositions which one may not have previously thought were meant for him, like Yen Iniya Pon Nilaave.  The low pitch may suit him but that cool, evil attitude is way out of character and he pulled it off.

Naalai Namadhe is one particularly off putting example of what got lost in translation when films featuring RDB hits were remade in Tamil.  It's not that Naalai Namadhe is a bad melody.  But it's kind of cliche.  Yaadon Ki Baaraat is poignant because of its simplicity.  This is the point I made in the BR comments but it was probably lost on them.  It's not that simple automatically equates to dumbed down.  The old Hindi composers had a way of making tunes that were simple on the surface but with a very elegant arc and lovely peaks and troughs which evoked emotion.  In that sense, yes, there was a certain tiredness in MSV's music in the 70s.  Also, he wasn't the best with arrangements and RD was a master in that department, without taking away credit from arrangers like Cawas Lord who helped him out.  MSV had people to help him out too so it's also about the vision of the composer.  For instance, IR claims that all the melodies on Mella Thirandhadhu Kadhavu were composed by MSV.  I take his statement at face value and even so would doubt if say Thedum Kanpaarvai would have shaped up the same way without IR's orchestration.  The way the song is spaced out, and the subtle dynamics like the soft entrance of the pallavi followed by dramatic strings in the interlude is all IR.  He took a great melody and built up the drama to heights that with all due respect I doubt MSV could have scaled by himself.  Which is why I needed to be told that it was actually IR-MSV and not IR alone because it bears his stamp through and through.  The old composers before RDB too had this gift for building up a song out of a good melody.  MM on any number of songs but esp Khelo Na Mere Dil Se, SJ on Jaane Kahan Gaye Woh Din, SDB on Tere Mere Sapne, LP on Yeh Dil Tum Bin, Jaidev on Yeh Wohi Geet Hai.  Difference between a song that sounds well put together and one that sounds like it was crafted lovingly and painstakingly with a lot of passion to coax out the emotions the composer must have envisaged while composing the melody.

CR,

You are on the dot regarding simple tune but effective tunes. I would put it this way. The master's gave us many simple tunes but simplistic tunes. There was so much dynamics within a tune. (I think Rahman gave quite a few tunes which are simplistic.) Anil Biswas, MM, Roshan, SDB all have given so many simple but outstanding tunes.

The next part of the MSV article (more on Raja in this part  ) : http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/09/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-14-new.html

Raaga_Suresh wrote:The next part of the MSV article (more on Raja in this part  ) : http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/09/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-14-new.html

Suresh

  Good observations about the Raja music methodology. I think you are mixing up western harmony and symphony. If you consider the rules of symphony, 99% of Raja's work will not qualify. Raja has been using electronic synthesizers for a very long time and that alone will disqualify his work as being called symphonic. 

  You have otherwise described his orchestral work fairly accurately. The only part I would like to add is that with the exception of a few purely Carnatic pieces (example, Ivann), Raja does 4-part harmonic score (SATB) for every piece of music. he composes.No other Indian composer I know of does that, and he is very disciplined about it.

  To this date, I keep wondering about many of his semi-classical songs on how he would have written the 4-part score.. Example, Poo Maalai Vaangi from Sindhu Bhairavi has all its vocal parts in Kanada while if you observe the second interlude, he harmonizes it without any difficulty. 

  I have reached out to some of his musicians and I have not got a convincing answer on how he does that SATB to an Indian raga. Somebody needs to get under the covers and uncover this inimitable style. While I see some of today's composers trying to do this in some compositions, Raja does it as a matter of habit and has never talked too much about it.

Ravi,

Fair enough. As I said I am not talking of symphony in that sense at all here. All I meant was that a) each movement of symphony is an organic whole b) No one instrument is generally more important than other in that art form. I meant symphony only at that broad level and not at the grammar level.

I did not want to get too much into Raja for obvious reasons  Analysing Raja that deeply is beyond me.

Raaga_Suresh wrote:The next part of the MSV article (more on Raja in this part  ) : http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/09/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-14-new.html

Nice article, Sureshji!

It would be nice if IR himself talks about his approach to TFM during his early years  
(I don't mean the 'varalAtRu suvadugaL' kind but purely musically...Yours is probably close  )

MSV definitely had a reasonable command on orch (much had been talked about his piano playing skills; also, recently IR talked about how he got called by the mellisai mannar for the "combo organ" and that it didn't give the exact sound that MSV expected to hear etc). Unfortunately, it wasn't enough to challenge the indhi cool sounds. 

Of course, IR & orch is an altogether different story

ravinat wrote:

  To this date, I keep wondering about many of his semi-classical songs on how he would have written the 4-part score.. Example, Poo Maalai Vaangi from Sindhu Bhairavi has all its vocal parts in Kanada while if you observe the second interlude, he harmonizes it without any difficulty. 

  I have reached out to some of his musicians and I have not got a convincing answer on how he does that SATB to an Indian raga. Somebody needs to get under the covers and uncover this inimitable style. While I see some of today's composers trying to do this in some compositions, Raja does it as a matter of habit and has never talked too much about it.

Could you please elaborate on this? Am I right to assume that while the melody in Kaanada takes one scale, the orchestration is harmonized in 3 other scales pertaining to SATB or is it that the orchestration is harmonized fully in SATB?

<While I see some of today's composers trying to do this in some compositions>

Examples please  Would like to learn who the composers are how they do it in comparison to Raaja and whether they do it in his wake, taking him as an inspiration

From a purely academic point of view, yes, IR represents a discontinuity, in fact the biggest discontinuity, in IFM, a tangent as it were because his approach has never been emulated in its true sense.  From a pop culture perspective, no, because IR was careful to conceal his groundbreaking innovations beneath an approach to melody that largely followed the precedents set by MSV as well as the Hindi greats.  This is why IR remains misunderstood and underappreciated to date.  Because it is easy to focus only on his melody and think he was extending the work of MSV.  It doesn't sound different in an OBVIOUS way.  Even a song like Un Paarvayil composed at the height of his 80s reign has a lot of MSV flavour in the melody.

CR,

True. As I said in the article, Raja was indeed seen as an extension of MSV in the initial stages. It didn't 'sound' as different as R D Burman did or Rahman did. Not only MSV, Raja was influenced by R D, S D and Salil, all of which we can hear in his music. As you said, that is what fooled people and it still fools people. This outstanding ability to hide is craft is what makes Raja someone who just cannot be emulated.

Drunkenmunk wrote:

ravinat wrote:

  To this date, I keep wondering about many of his semi-classical songs on how he would have written the 4-part score.. Example, Poo Maalai Vaangi from Sindhu Bhairavi has all its vocal parts in Kanada while if you observe the second interlude, he harmonizes it without any difficulty. 

  I have reached out to some of his musicians and I have not got a convincing answer on how he does that SATB to an Indian raga. Somebody needs to get under the covers and uncover this inimitable style. While I see some of today's composers trying to do this in some compositions, Raja does it as a matter of habit and has never talked too much about it.

Could you please elaborate on this? Am I right to assume that while the melody in Kaanada takes one scale, the orchestration is harmonized in 3 other scales pertaining to SATB or is it that the orchestration is harmonized fully in SATB?

<While I see some of today's composers trying to do this in some compositions>

Examples please  Would like to learn who the composers are how they do it in comparison to Raaja and whether they do it in his wake, taking him as an inspiration

DM

You need to take your mind off the Carnatic ragam. His interlude 2 of Poomalai Vaangi is a western harmony written to coexist with the otherwise Carnatic composition. Such harmonies are written as 4 part compositions and you can clearly hear between the solo violin , cellos and the strings. 

Doing such an arrangement is nothing new. However , weaving it with Carnatic is not easy and he does it very casually. 

I will provide some examples of some other composers whi jave attempted this in small ways later. Mostly , it is small composers like Ramesh Vinayagam or Sharreth.

Though not anyway similar ,  I do like the AJ song in 180 by Sharreth. Beautiful harmony. 

Some of VSN's work also has the Carnatic WCM harmony well integrated.

ravinat wrote:

Drunkenmunk wrote:

ravinat wrote:

  To this date, I keep wondering about many of his semi-classical songs on how he would have written the 4-part score.. Example, Poo Maalai Vaangi from Sindhu Bhairavi has all its vocal parts in Kanada while if you observe the second interlude, he harmonizes it without any difficulty. 

  I have reached out to some of his musicians and I have not got a convincing answer on how he does that SATB to an Indian raga. Somebody needs to get under the covers and uncover this inimitable style. While I see some of today's composers trying to do this in some compositions, Raja does it as a matter of habit and has never talked too much about it.

Could you please elaborate on this? Am I right to assume that while the melody in Kaanada takes one scale, the orchestration is harmonized in 3 other scales pertaining to SATB or is it that the orchestration is harmonized fully in SATB?

<While I see some of today's composers trying to do this in some compositions>

Examples please  Would like to learn who the composers are how they do it in comparison to Raaja and whether they do it in his wake, taking him as an inspiration

DM

You need to take your mind off the Carnatic ragam. His interlude 2 of Poomalai Vaangi is a western harmony written to coexist with the otherwise Carnatic composition. Such harmonies are written as 4 part compositions and you can clearly hear between the solo violin , cellos and the strings. 

Doing such an arrangement is nothing new. However , weaving it with Carnatic is not easy and he does it very casually. 

I will provide some examples of some other composers whi jave attempted this in small ways later. Mostly , it is small composers like Ramesh Vinayagam or Sharreth.

Though not anyway similar ,  I do like the AJ song in 180 by Sharreth. Beautiful harmony. 

Some of VSN's work also has the Carnatic WCM harmony well integrated.

Got you. Thank you hai!

app_engine wrote:

Raaga_Suresh wrote:The next part of the MSV article (more on Raja in this part  ) : http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/09/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-14-new.html

Nice article, Sureshji!

It would be nice if IR himself talks about his approach to TFM during his early years  
(I don't mean the 'varalAtRu suvadugaL' kind but purely musically...Yours is probably close  )

MSV definitely had a reasonable command on orch (much had been talked about his piano playing skills; also, recently IR talked about how he got called by the mellisai mannar for the "combo organ" and that it didn't give the exact sound that MSV expected to hear etc). Unfortunately, it wasn't enough to challenge the indhi cool sounds. 

Of course, IR & orch is an altogether different story

App,

I am sure MSV had control over some instruments but when it came to orchestrating, the orchestration as a bit hazy and loose. Sometimes it was lazy ) 

I also hope that Raja talks about his approach. We are concluding everything based on his music. Will be good to hear him speak about it

Ravinat,

I was looping on this song since yesterday and decided to upload on YT since it does not have the full version 



Melody is in Saranga. Now correct me if I'm wrong (maybe this is the wrong thread too), but the second interlude; isn't it a 4 part harmonic score when the flute joins the chorus and flute (1), chorus (2), guitar (3) and maracas (4) are in harmony? I don't know for sure which is S, A, T and B respectively but may I guess, assuming I'm right?  Flute is Soprano, Chorus is Alto, Guitar is Tenor and maracas are the Bass? Considering everything is wrong, forget it

MSV Part 15: The order changeth slowly : http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/09/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-15.html The slow decline of MSV.

Raaga_Suresh wrote:MSV Part 15: The order changeth slowly : http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/09/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-15.html The slow decline of MSV.

Sensitive and sensible. Good post Suresh.

Thanks Ravi.

ravinat wrote:

Raaga_Suresh wrote:MSV Part 15: The order changeth slowly : http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/09/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-15.html The slow decline of MSV.

Sensitive and sensible. Good post Suresh.

Several thoughts on what MSV did vs Raja, after they lost their commercial dominance:

- MSV hanged on to his old clientele (a very common sense approach). Raja kept his doors open for young directors, though his biggest supporters deserted him. To this date, it is these new small directors who keep him going.

- MSV did the Bappi Lahiri sound with the hope that it will bring his old fortunes back. Raja did not succumb to any keyboard loops/software initially, giving in to the trend. He messed up initially and slowly figured out a way of marrying the modern technology with his multi-genre contribution. He bounced back with his own version that looks unique with his stamp written all over it

- MSV would not change his main singers, who represented his old world. Raja would go with Harcharan, Unni, Hariharan, Rahul, Karthik, Jyostna, Priya, Ramya or even Amitabh

  Surviving beyond your commercial dominance is not easy. It did not come to RD easily. Reluctantly, he chose the nasal Kumar Sanu and Kavitha Krishnamurthy for his last film. But that was too late (literally too!)

  What Raja has demonstrated in his post 1993 career is his flexibility and did not stick to some moral high ground that he is a musical genius - he has been practical for you and me to write about him in 2015 in the last 22 years.

  Some day, today's commercially dominant MDs will lose market. They have to look back at what Raja did to keep things going. It is not just his music that teaches lessons.

May I add one more thing?
Raaja has a definitive opinion on music and much like a mountaineer always climbing to a newer height
has been going ahead -never a prisoner of his own success. It is incidental that he achieved dizzying success in 80s.
He never stopped discarding formulae that worked with the masses - because he kept himself aloof from the mass and media.
His focus was always on understanding his own source of music - Much like a mountaineer does, keeps discarding excess baggage 
- no matter what that piece of equipment costs or how valuable it was in bringing him to a given point.
To quote a modern term - it is a disruptive process - causes heartburns to followers and peers and coworkers, but if you are interested in future
 u should learn to swallow up and never let any vested interest group dictate your direction and toolset. As a result 
his music,these days seems all too simple - lite so as to speak of in some of the fan terms. But lite enough to service the situation and yet
valuable as a proof of the goal he has been climbing towards all along. I only wish and pray that I have enough patience and sensibility to 
keep up with his monumental quest.. Quite possible that he might just discover 'Silence' after reaching the peak of peaks..

ravinat wrote:

ravinat wrote:

Raaga_Suresh wrote:MSV Part 15: The order changeth slowly : http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/09/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-15.html The slow decline of MSV.

Sensitive and sensible. Good post Suresh.

Several thoughts on what MSV did vs Raja, after they lost their commercial dominance:

- MSV hanged on to his old clientele (a very common sense approach). Raja kept his doors open for young directors, though his biggest supporters deserted him. To this date, it is these new small directors who keep him going.

- MSV did the Bappi Lahiri sound with the hope that it will bring his old fortunes back. Raja did not succumb to any keyboard loops/software initially, giving in to the trend. He messed up initially and slowly figured out a way of marrying the modern technology with his multi-genre contribution. He bounced back with his own version that looks unique with his stamp written all over it

- MSV would not change his main singers, who represented his old world. Raja would go with Harcharan, Unni, Hariharan, Rahul, Karthik, Jyostna, Priya, Ramya or even Amitabh

  Surviving beyond your commercial dominance is not easy. It did not come to RD easily. Reluctantly, he chose the nasal Kumar Sanu and Kavitha Krishnamurthy for his last film. But that was too late (literally too!)

  What Raja has demonstrated in his post 1993 career is his flexibility and did not stick to some moral high ground that he is a musical genius - he has been practical for you and me to write about him in 2015 in the last 22 years.

  Some day, today's commercially dominant MDs will lose market. They have to look back at what Raja did to keep things going. It is not just his music that teaches lessons.

Another thing, the massive wave of nostalgia post RD's death also helped the music of 1942.  It wasn't by itself exceptional and there was not one song with the verve usually associated with RD.  Felt more like a ponderous Ismail Darbar score for SLB's films (which makes sense because SLB was the assistant director on 1942).  I don't know how the public would have taken to 1942 if RD had been still alive.  What I do know is the thinly disguised jingle bells music in the second 'interlude' of Kuch Na Kaho makes me cringe; RD in his prime would have never done something so unimaginative, so blatant.  I would even take some of his early 80s scores up to Satte Pe Satta (after which his touch began to desert him) over 1942; he had good films in the 80s like Agar Tum No Hote, Kudrat, Bade Dilwale, even Harjaee if a little boring.  As for new singers, in the 70s, RD quickly took Shailendar on board for Rishi Kapoor films.  He also gave opportunities to Amit Kumar, Suresh Wadkar and our own SPB.  Encouraging female singers proved more difficult thanks to the influence of the Mangeshkar sisters (veritably the Cruella de Vils of Bolly).  RD gave songs to Aarti Mukherjee on Maasoom for which she got awards.  He later selected her to record a Durga Puja album and then Asha 'tai' would have none of it.  I don't think he worked with Aarti thereafter.  If Anand Milind had not broken through in such a big way with Alka Yagnik and Udit Narayan (for new lead actors to boot) on QSQT, possibly the Mangeshkar stranglehold would have taken longer to break.  So I don't blame the older composers for getting stuck with the older singers.  With the males, the heroes were finicky about not wanting a voice other than the one that had given them hits and with the females, you had the supposedly 'humble' Mangeshkar siblings pulling the strings.

Ravi,

Nice thoughts which I agree upon.

Jai,

Your analogy is perfect. Like I wrote in the 'Shamitabh' review Raja is an anarchist who destroys the temples he himself builds. He destroys his own image and relishes doing it. For him, finally what matters is the art and everything else can be discarded. As an eternal student he progress from one area to another. Unfortunately most of his fans have not kept pace. This another aspect of Raja which has no parallel in Indian musical history, not just film music history

"Another thing, the massive wave of nostalgia post RD's death also helped the music of 1942.  It wasn't by itself exceptional and there was not one song with the verve usually associated with RD. "

CR,

I am fully with you on this. When '1942' was released the most generous I could be was 'this is an OK album'. It was nostalgia and love for RD which was working. There is no way you can take in '1942' into the RD canon. 

Yes, Lata singing in the 80s itself was atrocious. Her singing in 1990s was terrible and yet they somehow managed to control the film industry through their hand chosen MDs. Added to it there were producers like Yash Chopra who wanted only Lata to sing in their movies. Her dominance in the Hindi film music field is still a big mystery for me.