Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

kiru Sun Aug 04, 2013 10:43 am

@ravinat - awesome blogs. App too was quick with a repartee. Yes, this man in unfathomable. I stand corrected. Was listening to IR's Geethanjali and Ramana maalai before the rest of the family was awake. And my mother-in-law commented that people who make music like this are becoming a rarity. These sort of things will stand the test of time. Inspite of all his technical prowess he never takes his eye off the emotion ball as well. Keep up the education here going gentlemen.

jaiganesh Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:04 pm

fring151 wrote:Ravinat,

Regarding multiple flutes and solo violin, stringed instruments are ideal for harmony and it is an interesting thought to have a set of flutes harmonizing a solo violin melody. I can't imagine what it would sound like, but of course Raja can! I completely second you that it is impossible to say how an instrument will sound in his hands.

Jaiganesh,

I doubt if there is a technical term for that but I may be wrong. This is a very frequent idea that Raja uses in interludes and BGMs. Of course, we can use the all-encompassing term orchestration or arrangement to describe these at the macro level, but on the micro level, the rapid smooth transitions from one instrument to another that he achieves in the song you mentioned, or Azhagu aayiram, for example where the soundscape changes every few seconds seems to be very uniquely Raja. This is also the reason for the unpredictability factor in his music which I simply adore. I can't immediately think of a source of inspiration for this idea in his music.

agreed, but the morphing is not a random choice.
something very consciously crafted. we wouldnt have noticed
if the entire piece was done in solo violin or flute. having
chosen to put them in there, could have written a counterpoint.
That would have caught our attention right away, but this
trick of one section split between two instruments is a mind
boggling one. At one level it harps at the unity aspect of music
but at another level a celebration of difference in the instrument
tones. Only a man who loves violin and flute alike can think of
this.

ravinat Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:17 pm

ravinat wrote:I have never written about just a song's pallavi. However, I decided to make a deviation. There is one song of Raja that has intrigued me for its arrangement for a very long time. I could not put a finger and tell what he was doing, but always had an awe whenever I heard this song. Also, I will be tense about one thing in this pallavi that has never bothered me with Raja's other pallavis. Like all songs, this song also has the pallavi repeated thrice. Will this time around, the composer be able to accommodate the intervening instrumentation? Will he have enough space/time to do what he did in the first time in the pallavi?

I was searching for this song for a while and somehow it kept slipping from my memory though the pattern registered clearly in me. I think I figured out what he was trying to do. Maybe, my theory is premature. I wrote things down to ensure that my reasoning makes sense.

The song is Sorgathin Vasapadi from another non-descript film Unnai Solli Kutramillai. from 1990.

Please ignore the video and the gymnastics. We will focus on Raja's game. Like most songs, the pallavi has 12 bars. Here is what Raja has tried to do, in my view, with these 12 bars.

Bar 1 - Sorgathin Vasapadi
Guitar interlude - half bar
Bar 2 - Enna Kanavugalil
Flute Interlude - half bar
Bar 3 - Sorgathin Vasapadi
Guitar interlude - half bar
Bar 4 - Enna Kanavugalil
Flute Interlude - half bar
Bar 5 - Pennalla Nee Enakku
Synth Interlude - half bar
Bar 6 - Vanna KaLangiyame
Synth Interlude - half bar
Bar 7 - Chinna Malarkodiye
Violin interlude - half bar
Bar 8 - Nenjil Sindhum PanithuLiye
Violin interlude - half bar
Bar 9 - Sorgathin Vasapadi (female)
Guitar interlude - half bar
Bar 10 - Enna Kanavugalil (female)
Flute Interlude - half bar
Bar 11 - Sorgathin Vasapadi (female)
Guitar interlude - half bar
Bar 12 - Enna Kanavugalil (female)
Flute Interlude - half bar

He has pushed the pallavi to 18 bars without anybody realizing it! Every time, the pallavi repeats, he will switch male to female, but the parts are delivered exactly every time - 18 bars, no compromise even once. Not sure, what drove the math when he wrote this. I have also not heard a song constructed this way by Raja. There are several songs where the pallavi has interludes - not 12. If you know any, let me know. Bloody genius, as Aakarsh would say it!

I wrote about the song Sorgathin Vasarpadi some time back and was wondering if there are similar songs orchestrated in this way. Even if the song does not have the perfect symmetry that Sorgathin Vasarpadi song has, I realized that this is a class within Raja's orchestration when I came across another such song. These are classes of songs where the pallavi has more than a dozen instrument responses to the musical phrases sang by the singers. As I am researching Raja's C&R at this time, I tend to pay close attention to such arrangements.

The song is 'Adhikalai Subhavelai' from the film Natpu (1986?). Here are the phrases (I would refrain from bars as I do not think that there is perfect symmetry in this song):

Female: Adhi kalai
Bells lude
Female: Subha Velai
Bells Lude
Female: Un Olai Vandhadhu
Bells: Lude (though this starts even before the phrase is completed)
Female: Adhi kalai
Bells lude
Female: Subha Velai
Bells Lude
Female: Un Olai Vandhadhu
Bells: Lude (though this starts even before the phrase is completed)
Male: Kadhil Sonna Kaaviyam Poovai Ponadhu
Bells lude
Male: Vaanil Pona Devadhai Vaazthu Sonnadhu
Bells lude
Female: Oru Thathai
Bells lude
Female: Kadidhathai
Bells lude
Female: Than Nenjukulle Vasikka
Bells: Lude (though this starts even before the phrase is completed)
Female: Adhi kalai
Bells lude
Female: Subha Velai
Bells Lude
Female: Un Olai Vandhadhu
Bells: Lude (though this starts even before the phrase is completed)
Male: Adhi kalai
Bells lude
Male: Subha Velai
Bells Lude
Male: Un Olai Vandhadhu

That's a total of 16 ludes just within the pallavi. The other pallavis - pallavi 2 and pallavi 3 are shorter and does not have the same appeal as Sorgathin Vasarpadi. However, I would put both these songs in the same category off orchestration technique.

Usha Thu Aug 15, 2013 1:46 pm

ravinat,
indha paatu ungaloda indha list la varuma.............

Ennuyir needhanae un uyir naan dhanae

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM9K-kL6DMc

kiru Thu Aug 15, 2013 11:41 pm

ravinat wrote: However, I would put both these songs in the same category off orchestration technique.

(Pretending to be a crazy MSV fan) What orchestration ? Why can't he let the singers sing without any interruption. A tune should flow smoothly without all these gimmicks. It is a disrespect to interrtupt great singers like KJY. Maybe it is his ego making him poke his nose while the singers are really doing their job. I am unable to sing the song while taking a shower, I cannot take an orchestra with me to the bathroom !! Smile

Drunkenmunk Fri Aug 16, 2013 1:02 am

kiru wrote:I cannot take an orchestra with me to the bathroom

ravinat Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:32 pm

kiru wrote:
ravinat wrote: However, I would put both these songs in the same category off orchestration technique.
(Pretending to be a crazy MSV fan) What orchestration ? Why can't he let the singers sing without any interruption. A tune should flow smoothly without all these gimmicks. It is a disrespect to interrtupt great singers like KJY. Maybe it is his ego making him poke his nose while the singers are really doing their job. I am unable to sing the song while taking a shower, I cannot take an orchestra with me to the bathroom !!

Kiru

I liked the humor at my expense Very Happy

The word 'off' was a typo that I forgot to correct. I never thought you would see it as "Off orchestration technique" Surprised

Now it is my turn - What is this interrtupting great singers? Is that something like metalizing their voices using crazy electronic filters in Logic Studio?

kiru Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:55 pm

Ravi.. no no.. I always devour your posts greedily ... you are an educator .. Since I dont know much music I try to stay at the big picture level. Say for eg, at the structure of the song.. the vocals, the instruments etc. Even though what I mentioned is something I have heard many MSV fans say. I think there is some truth to it - IRs song is a blend of vocals + instrumental concert. I mean, the instruments are a first class citizen as well as the vocals. (I guess that is what you are already saying too I guess). With say MSV or even Rahman (one of the reasons I think Rahman is old school more modern/fusion is IR) .. the instrumental part is more of a background music. Maybe this belongs to the IR-MSV -Rahman thread. This is my own pet theory .. please expound on it .. for or otherwise. thanks.

ravinat Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:47 pm

kiru wrote:Ravi.. no no.. I always devour your posts greedily ... you are an educator .. Since I dont know much music I try to stay at the big picture level. Say for eg, at the structure of the song.. the vocals, the instruments etc. Even though what I mentioned is something I have heard many MSV fans say. I think there is some truth to it - IRs song is a blend of vocals + instrumental concert. I mean, the instruments are a first class citizen as well as the vocals. (I guess that is what you are already saying too I guess). With say MSV or even Rahman (one of the reasons I think Rahman is old school more modern/fusion is IR) .. the instrumental part is more of a background music. Maybe this belongs to the IR-MSV -Rahman thread. This is my own pet theory .. please expound on it .. for or otherwise. thanks.

Kiru

All is fine in good humor! I have got slapped for my humor in other forums and I would never do that even if it is at my expense!

My views on Raja's instrumentation on orchestration is beyond just being a first class citizen. A first class citizen shares the berth with others. A premium class citizen has the coach to himself. I agree that within a charanam or pallavi, he treats instruments at par with the vocals. However, he has this playground called interludes (all other music composers have the same playground). He makes instruments as premium class. It is a premium class in a passenger train or a superfast express or an European train or it can be a combo. Even when he uses voices in his interludes, he arranges them exactly like an instrument. While the odd detractor will complain about his interlude being in a completely different league compared to his main melody, I INSIST on it. I do not like songs where the interlude goes with the main tune. (Perhaps, I am spoilt by Raja). This is the unique factor that separates him from all composers on the planet. In my view, that is the true Raja. Between the take off and the landing chord of the interlude, you do not have any influencers - directors, producers, actors, nothing - it is a pure Raja playground. Landing the interlude on an Indian melody - that's piece of cake for him. Nobody in the history of music has elevated an interlude to the level that Raja has. 80% of my Raja writings are about only one thing - interludes.

We have out own likes and dislikes; I have shortlisted about 1,600 songs that I consider as Raja's best (it started off as Raja's top 100). Several songs in this list stand simply on the merit of the interludes and not on the main melody. Here are some top of mind examples of songs where the premium class drives the presence of the song in the list:

1. Singara Cheemaiyile (the second interlude is the only reason why this song survives on the list)
2. Vayakatti Vayathakatti
3. Enakku thaaan (I am no fan of Sasirekha's voice. The guitar work is the reason for the song to be on the list)
4. Kathuthadi Raakozhi (the polyrhythm arrangement more than the main melody)
5. Raathiri Poothathu (again Sasirekha's voice is not the reason)

Usha Sat Aug 17, 2013 4:42 pm

ravinat,

Raathiri poothadhu - Jikki voice.....

kiru Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:17 am

ravinat wrote:.... While the odd detractor will complain about his interlude being in a completely different league compared to his main melody, I INSIST on it. I do not like songs where the interlude goes with the main tune.....

Ravi, I think the film music audience is not serious enough to see the musical connectivity between the main tune and the interludes. But sometimes, the songs have to be watched on-screen, to appreciate why the interlude is in a different mode (hero/heroine romancing but villains preparing/coming to kill them). If people can enjoy a vocal alaap in the beginning I think they should be able to appreciate the interlude music as well.
Yes, Raja puts more thought and efforts into his work, every second of it. Many (including myself) are appreciating only a small percentage of all his efforts.

Usha Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:18 pm

kola kiliyae kola kiliyae - kaakai siraglinae

Lovely beats.. indha oru paatukul.. ethanai variety..............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6bHlYmjsT0

ravinat Wed Sep 04, 2013 4:57 pm

This morning, on my way to work, I heard another 90s song where Raja is really doing some strange orchestration that I think I got it, but not so sure.

Song: Punnai Vanathu Kuyile
Singers: SPB, Janaki
Film: Muthukaalai

I am sure this is one of those Karthik films that went nowhere.

The audio quality is pathetic and you must hear this song from a good source. This is about the second interlude. Here is what's going on, as I heard this track 5 times just this morning after I got a fleeting glimpse at Raja's experiment:

1. Between 2:43 and 2:51 - The shehnai is used in its native North Indian format and the synthesizer responds to the call twice. Nothing unusual yet.

2. Between 2:52 and 3:00 - The rhythm joins the shehnai which now switches to 'Raja' mode. There are a couple of bars - Again nothing unusual

3. Between 3:01 and 3:10 - You have 4 things going on suddenly. The table joins on a different time while the earlier rhythm is still going on. Polyrhythm 101. You will also notice that the synthesizer plays counter melody to the shehnai.

That was the aha moment. Segment 1 and Segment 2 were preparing the listener for Segment 3. Those were just appetizers.

Polyphony on top of polyrhythm. That's one hellua lesson within 27 seconds. Please use a good pair of headphones and a good audio source to enjoy the lesson!

ravinat Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:13 pm

One more to add to this category of orchestration:

I was hearing this song today and realized that the bells intervention takes exactly 15 times in all the three pallavis. Pallavi 1 sang by SPB, Pallavi 2 sang by SJ and Pallavi 3 sang by SPB/SJ:

Third in this category of orchestration. I will report more as I find them.

ravinat wrote:
ravinat wrote:I have never written about just a song's pallavi. However, I decided to make a deviation. There is one song of Raja that has intrigued me for its arrangement for a very long time. I could not put a finger and tell what he was doing, but always had an awe whenever I heard this song. Also, I will be tense about one thing in this pallavi that has never bothered me with Raja's other pallavis. Like all songs, this song also has the pallavi repeated thrice. Will this time around, the composer be able to accommodate the intervening instrumentation? Will he have enough space/time to do what he did in the first time in the pallavi?

I was searching for this song for a while and somehow it kept slipping from my memory though the pattern registered clearly in me. I think I figured out what he was trying to do. Maybe, my theory is premature. I wrote things down to ensure that my reasoning makes sense.

The song is Sorgathin Vasapadi from another non-descript film Unnai Solli Kutramillai. from 1990.

Please ignore the video and the gymnastics. We will focus on Raja's game. Like most songs, the pallavi has 12 bars. Here is what Raja has tried to do, in my view, with these 12 bars.

Bar 1 - Sorgathin Vasapadi
Guitar interlude - half bar
Bar 2 - Enna Kanavugalil
Flute Interlude - half bar
Bar 3 - Sorgathin Vasapadi
Guitar interlude - half bar
Bar 4 - Enna Kanavugalil
Flute Interlude - half bar
Bar 5 - Pennalla Nee Enakku
Synth Interlude - half bar
Bar 6 - Vanna KaLangiyame
Synth Interlude - half bar
Bar 7 - Chinna Malarkodiye
Violin interlude - half bar
Bar 8 - Nenjil Sindhum PanithuLiye
Violin interlude - half bar
Bar 9 - Sorgathin Vasapadi (female)
Guitar interlude - half bar
Bar 10 - Enna Kanavugalil (female)
Flute Interlude - half bar
Bar 11 - Sorgathin Vasapadi (female)
Guitar interlude - half bar
Bar 12 - Enna Kanavugalil (female)
Flute Interlude - half bar

He has pushed the pallavi to 18 bars without anybody realizing it! Every time, the pallavi repeats, he will switch male to female, but the parts are delivered exactly every time - 18 bars, no compromise even once. Not sure, what drove the math when he wrote this. I have also not heard a song constructed this way by Raja. There are several songs where the pallavi has interludes - not 12. If you know any, let me know. Bloody genius, as Aakarsh would say it!
I wrote about the song Sorgathin Vasarpadi some time back and was wondering if there are similar songs orchestrated in this way. Even if the song does not have the perfect symmetry that Sorgathin Vasarpadi song has, I realized that this is a class within Raja's orchestration when I came across another such song. These are classes of songs where the pallavi has more than a dozen instrument responses to the musical phrases sang by the singers. As I am researching Raja's C&R at this time, I tend to pay close attention to such arrangements.

The song is 'Adhikalai Subhavelai' from the film Natpu (1986?). Here are the phrases (I would refrain from bars as I do not think that there is perfect symmetry in this song):

Female: Adhi kalai
Bells lude
Female: Subha Velai
Bells Lude
Female: Un Olai Vandhadhu
Bells: Lude (though this starts even before the phrase is completed)
Female: Adhi kalai
Bells lude
Female: Subha Velai
Bells Lude
Female: Un Olai Vandhadhu
Bells: Lude (though this starts even before the phrase is completed)
Male: Kadhil Sonna Kaaviyam Poovai Ponadhu
Bells lude
Male: Vaanil Pona Devadhai Vaazthu Sonnadhu
Bells lude
Female: Oru Thathai
Bells lude
Female: Kadidhathai
Bells lude
Female: Than Nenjukulle Vasikka
Bells: Lude (though this starts even before the phrase is completed)
Female: Adhi kalai
Bells lude
Female: Subha Velai
Bells Lude
Female: Un Olai Vandhadhu
Bells: Lude (though this starts even before the phrase is completed)
Male: Adhi kalai
Bells lude
Male: Subha Velai
Bells Lude
Male: Un Olai Vandhadhu

That's a total of 16 ludes just within the pallavi. The other pallavis - pallavi 2 and pallavi 3 are shorter and does not have the same appeal as Sorgathin Vasarpadi. However, I would put both these songs in the same category off orchestration technique.

kiru Thu Oct 31, 2013 2:07 am

Ravi, great to read to your posts.
Re: sorgathin vaasapadi - I guess this is the kind of song which one guy (Ram ?) thinks does not flow unhindered in that blog of your namesake your responded to. He even adds Rahman to the company of MSV.
Re: adhikaalai subhavElai - isn't this called 'one-note harmony' ? if not, what is one note harmony. Please give some examples. Thanks.

ravinat Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:21 am

kiru wrote:Ravi, great to read to your posts.
Re: sorgathin vaasapadi - I guess this is the kind of song which one guy (Ram ?) thinks does not flow unhindered in that blog of your namesake your responded to. He even adds Rahman to the company of MSV.
Re: adhikaalai subhavElai - isn't this called 'one-note harmony' ? if not, what is one note harmony. Please give some examples. Thanks.

Kiru

I commented on that blog for exactly the same reason. While my namesake has been asking me to comment on his articles, I commented on his Raja posts to reset another responder's claims.

Honestly, I do not know anything about one-note harmony. Perhaps, others can shed some light.

crimson king Thu Oct 31, 2013 7:51 pm

One thing is that these songs have instrumental sections filling in the 'gaps' and the listener has to regard the whole and the part (i.e not just the vocal melody). But there are plenty other songs where he has composed 'flowing' melodies so either way the argument fails. Kaalai Thendral, Kanmaniye Pesu, Devan Thantha Veenai, Sundari Kannal, Chinnathayaval, Niram Pirithu Parthen, the list goes on.

fring151 Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:06 pm

Ya. Any criticism of Raja that goes 'He always does this' or 'Always does that' is bound to be specious as there are likely to exist at least a few dozen songs (more than the number of hits an average composer or band has in a lifetime) which readily serve as counter examples.

jaiganesh Thu Oct 31, 2013 10:46 pm

crimson king wrote:One thing is that these songs have instrumental sections filling in the 'gaps' and the listener has to regard the whole and the part (i.e not just the vocal melody). But there are plenty other songs where he has composed 'flowing' melodies so either way the argument fails. Kaalai Thendral, Kanmaniye Pesu, Devan Thantha Veenai, Sundari Kannal, Chinnathayaval, Niram Pirithu Parthen, the list goes on.

IR has a grammar - he follows strictly what the narration and character dictates - one reason why his lead singers dont break into free flowing aalaap and bruhas if the character they are mounthing for is not a trained singer- OTOH when the character is shown to be a trained vocalist - the main melodies' contours almost become unsingable by lay humans like me.

fring151 Fri Nov 01, 2013 1:33 am

crimson king wrote:One thing is that these songs have instrumental sections filling in the 'gaps' and the listener has to regard the whole and the part (i.e not just the vocal melody). But there are plenty other songs where he has composed 'flowing' melodies so either way the argument fails. Kaalai Thendral, Kanmaniye Pesu, Devan Thantha Veenai, Sundari Kannal, Chinnathayaval, Niram Pirithu Parthen, the list goes on.

And didn't the contrarian dude say the exact opposite and dismiss his songs as having 'only wonderful prelude/interlude and tabla supporting singularly mediocre melody'? Now this dude says too much contamination by orchestration, but accepts BGMs are good, the fb Chakravarthy accepts songs are ok but IR has no sense of BGM and invites him to take a course on BGM (at his school). Then there is Kaarigan who throws this open challenge (https://ilayaraja.forumms.net/t120-topic)
"The interlude of Ilayrajaa is nothing but a colossal damage to the main music of the song. It's independent and not an accessory to it...It often kills the song than save it. Prove me wrong."

Ore pOttu kozhapparAngappA. I propose that all these folks arrange a group meeting and come to a consensus as to what is wonderful and what is singularly mediocre about his music.

crimson king Fri Nov 01, 2013 4:37 am

People are too keen to generalise his music based on a few songs.

ravinat Fri Nov 01, 2013 3:04 pm

crimson king wrote:People are too keen to generalise his music based on a few songs.

I do not want to sound metaphorical. However,I do not see any other way. Lots of commentators have described Raja as a deep ocean. In my view, that is not entirely accurate. His work is like the great lakes. You see some of the greatest water systems come together. Nobody entirely understands how these great water systems were formed other than the fact that they were carved out during the ice ages.

The person looking at Superior will wonder at the expanse of this water system and how it gets constantly replenished. The person looking at Ontario/Eerie will wonder about the Niagara falls. The person closer to the end of this huge water system would wonder about the huge St Lawrence draining all this water into the Atlantic ocean, providing a commercial waterway.

And the great lakes are deep and have a great influence on the lives of over 150 million people making them one of the richest in the world.

Raja is like the great lakes. Natural wonder, commercially exploited.., making listeners rich in their worldly experience.

Never look at the thousands of feeder systems, nor its individual large components. Like the great lakes being visible from space, his music will last for very long.

raja4ever Fri Nov 01, 2013 9:49 pm

ravinat wrote:
crimson king wrote:People are too keen to generalise his music based on a few songs.
I do not want to sound metaphorical. However,I do not see any other way. Lots of commentators have described Raja as a deep ocean. In my view, that is not entirely accurate. His work is like the great lakes. You see some of the greatest water systems come together. Nobody entirely understands how these great water systems were formed other than the fact that they were carved out during the ice ages.

The person looking at Superior will wonder at the expanse of this water system and how it gets constantly replenished. The person looking at Ontario/Eerie will wonder about the Niagara falls. The person closer to the end of this huge water system would wonder about the huge St Lawrence draining all this water into the Atlantic ocean, providing a commercial waterway.

And the great lakes are deep and have a great influence on the lives of over 150 million people making them one of the richest in the world.

Raja is like the great lakes. Natural wonder, commercially exploited.., making listeners rich in their worldly experience.

Never look at the thousands of feeder systems, nor its individual large components. Like the great lakes being visible from space, his music will last for very long.

Wow.. Wonderful explanation Ravi ! Glad to be from a state surrounded by Great Lakes Wink

Drunkenmunk Wed Nov 13, 2013 12:08 pm

Listening to Idhayame from Idhayam. At precisely 1:46, the tabla which plays a pattern changes tracks while SPB sings. I think he has used syncopation in this pathos song to great effect:

ravinat Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:41 pm

Drunkenmunk wrote:Listening to Idhayame from Idhayam. At precisely 1:46, the tabla which plays a pattern changes tracks while SPB sings. I think he has used syncopation in this pathos song to great effect:

DM

Change of the pattern for a few bars is a correct observation. Calling it as syncopation is incorrect, in my view. There is no need to change a pattern to achieve syncopation - all you need to do is to introduce timing delays or speed up time. I think I explained this in this topic a bit earlier...

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