RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  crimson king on Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:52 pm

Good one on the trendsetters though it has notable omissions like Naushad and SJ.  Re RD, while both Teesri Manzil and Padosan were great soundtracks that clearly showcased his unique sound, he didn't really take the Hindi film industry by storm until Aradhana-Caravan-Kati Patang.  It was that clutch of soundtracks at the very end of the 60s/early 70s that finally made him numero uno.  I have already discussed the now widely acknowledged role of RD in Aradhana music though it is officially credited to SDB.  It says much about how conservative the Hindi producers were and also how loyal they were to their chosen camps.  Even though Teesri Manzil music was a big hit, Shammi's films continued to have SJ's music up to Andaaz. Had he shifted allegiance, RD would have begun dominating the industry much earlier.  Shakti Samanta however was never really one for partnerships (his Kashmir ki Kali was scored by OP for instance) and it was he who ultimately gave RD his big break.  Unfortunately, by the time RD broke through, he was perhaps a little disappointed with not finding enough favour for his early experiments and dumbed down his sound for commercial success.  If you take any of his early albums, be it Baharon ke Sapne, Teesri Manzil, Padosan or Abhilasha, they are all very musically interesting and have unusual tracks like Kya Janoon Sajan, Aaja Mere Humdum, Tumne Mujhe Dekha.  That boldness was largely missing once he became commercially successful.  

You have talked a lot about the Kishore-RD partnership but equally important was the Asha-RD partnership.  Lata has often claimed she could do whatever Asha could and chose not to for reasons of taste (that she was not comfortable with cabaret songs).  I call bullshit on that one.  Songs like Lekar Hum Deewana Dil, Chura Liya or Yeh Ladka Haye Allah are not cabaret and still not at all Lata's range.  Zeenat Aman was the first HEROINE in Bolly to openly flaunt her sexuality (without being cast as a whorish character) and Asha became her voice more or less from the get go.  So RD-Asha-Zeenat became a hit combo.  IR did the same later on with S Janaki and it was RD who paved the way for a more liberal characterisation of the Indian woman (in music).  He did give lots of songs to Lata but they were all still in the classical mould.  If Asha closed the gap on Lata in popular perception, it is because of the RD effect.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  ravinat on Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:06 pm

crimson king wrote:Good one on the trendsetters though it has notable omissions like Naushad and SJ.  Re RD, while both Teesri Manzil and Padosan were great soundtracks that clearly showcased his unique sound, he didn't really take the Hindi film industry by storm until Aradhana-Caravan-Kati Patang.  It was that clutch of soundtracks at the very end of the 60s/early 70s that finally made him numero uno.  I have already discussed the now widely acknowledged role of RD in Aradhana music though it is officially credited to SDB.  It says much about how conservative the Hindi producers were and also how loyal they were to their chosen camps.  Even though Teesri Manzil music was a big hit, Shammi's films continued to have SJ's music up to Andaaz. Had he shifted allegiance, RD would have begun dominating the industry much earlier.  Shakti Samanta however was never really one for partnerships (his Kashmir ki Kali was scored by OP for instance) and it was he who ultimately gave RD his big break.  Unfortunately, by the time RD broke through, he was perhaps a little disappointed with not finding enough favour for his early experiments and dumbed down his sound for commercial success.  If you take any of his early albums, be it Baharon ke Sapne, Teesri Manzil, Padosan or Abhilasha, they are all very musically interesting and have unusual tracks like Kya Janoon Sajan, Aaja Mere Humdum, Tumne Mujhe Dekha.  That boldness was largely missing once he became commercially successful.  

You have talked a lot about the Kishore-RD partnership but equally important was the Asha-RD partnership.  Lata has often claimed she could do whatever Asha could and chose not to for reasons of taste (that she was not comfortable with cabaret songs).  I call bullshit on that one.  Songs like Lekar Hum Deewana Dil, Chura Liya or Yeh Ladka Haye Allah are not cabaret and still not at all Lata's range.  Zeenat Aman was the first HEROINE in Bolly to openly flaunt her sexuality (without being cast as a whorish character) and Asha became her voice more or less from the get go.  So RD-Asha-Zeenat became a hit combo.  IR did the same later on with S Janaki and it was RD who paved the way for a more liberal characterisation of the Indian woman (in music).  He did give lots of songs to Lata but they were all still in the classical mould.  If Asha closed the gap on Lata in popular perception, it is because of the RD effect.

CK

  What boldness did RD lose? How many composers of his time did a Andhi or a Kinara? Some of RD's background scores in the 70s were much bolder than his 60s.

   Lata did try a few cabaret songs such as Aah Jaane Jaa with LP, but paled away before her sister. Though I have followed RD very closely, I still have not had a clear view into his understanding of WCM. He thrived on improvisation and more by hearing than formal training in my view.  That way, he could easily beat MSV in his game. With his HCM training, melodies came easily for him. As I had mentioned in my guest post in Suresh's blog, RD owned the 70s.

  Anyway, we can go on and on about RD...

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Thu Aug 27, 2015 7:59 pm

CR,

I don't think Naushad was a trendsetter. He was quite popular without doubt but he didn't really bring in something very new. He was more evolutionary building on what others like Kemchand Prakash (who did wonderful classical music based movies) and Anil Biswas. I feel the same about S D Burman. He was great that he could change wonderfully with the times but he never did set a trend like RDB.

Yes, RDB's main success came in early 70s but Padosan did have the sound he would use later. The songs of Padosan were great hits, especially 'mere samne wale kidki mein'. The movies which really took him to lofty heights of stardom were 'Aradhana' (yes, S D Burman is credited for the songs) and 'Hare Rama Hare Krishna'. 

I did not dwell too much on the Lata Asha divide because it wasn't as lopsided as Kishore Rafi divide. (I anyway plan to talk about Asha Burman in the next part)

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  crimson king on Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:32 am

ravinat wrote:
crimson king wrote:Good one on the trendsetters though it has notable omissions like Naushad and SJ.  Re RD, while both Teesri Manzil and Padosan were great soundtracks that clearly showcased his unique sound, he didn't really take the Hindi film industry by storm until Aradhana-Caravan-Kati Patang.  It was that clutch of soundtracks at the very end of the 60s/early 70s that finally made him numero uno.  I have already discussed the now widely acknowledged role of RD in Aradhana music though it is officially credited to SDB.  It says much about how conservative the Hindi producers were and also how loyal they were to their chosen camps.  Even though Teesri Manzil music was a big hit, Shammi's films continued to have SJ's music up to Andaaz. Had he shifted allegiance, RD would have begun dominating the industry much earlier.  Shakti Samanta however was never really one for partnerships (his Kashmir ki Kali was scored by OP for instance) and it was he who ultimately gave RD his big break.  Unfortunately, by the time RD broke through, he was perhaps a little disappointed with not finding enough favour for his early experiments and dumbed down his sound for commercial success.  If you take any of his early albums, be it Baharon ke Sapne, Teesri Manzil, Padosan or Abhilasha, they are all very musically interesting and have unusual tracks like Kya Janoon Sajan, Aaja Mere Humdum, Tumne Mujhe Dekha.  That boldness was largely missing once he became commercially successful.  

You have talked a lot about the Kishore-RD partnership but equally important was the Asha-RD partnership.  Lata has often claimed she could do whatever Asha could and chose not to for reasons of taste (that she was not comfortable with cabaret songs).  I call bullshit on that one.  Songs like Lekar Hum Deewana Dil, Chura Liya or Yeh Ladka Haye Allah are not cabaret and still not at all Lata's range.  Zeenat Aman was the first HEROINE in Bolly to openly flaunt her sexuality (without being cast as a whorish character) and Asha became her voice more or less from the get go.  So RD-Asha-Zeenat became a hit combo.  IR did the same later on with S Janaki and it was RD who paved the way for a more liberal characterisation of the Indian woman (in music).  He did give lots of songs to Lata but they were all still in the classical mould.  If Asha closed the gap on Lata in popular perception, it is because of the RD effect.

CK

  What boldness did RD lose? How many composers of his time did a Andhi or a Kinara? Some of RD's background scores in the 70s were much bolder than his 60s.

   Lata did try a few cabaret songs such as Aah Jaane Jaa with LP, but paled away before her sister. Though I have followed RD very closely, I still have not had a clear view into his understanding of WCM. He thrived on improvisation and more by hearing than formal training in my view.  That way, he could easily beat MSV in his game. With his HCM training, melodies came easily for him. As I had mentioned in my guest post in Suresh's blog, RD owned the 70s.

  Anyway, we can go on and on about RD...


Yes, Aandhi and Kinara were bold for THEIR time.  The time being the mid-late 70s by when only Khaiyyam and Jaidev from the 60s greats were still thriving (I don't think LP and Kalyanji Anandji's work in the 70s can be put on the same pedestal as Gharaunda or Kabhi Kabhi!).  In a way, RD himself precipitated the decline of HFM over a period of time with the emphasis on rhythm over melody.  And on that note, I would disagree about his melodies.  I have noticed that he used to blatantly recycle what half a stanza of melody from one song for another. Listen closely to Raat Kali and Pyar Diwana Hota Hai and the antara of the latter is just a clever rearrangement of the former.  This weakness became even more glaring in his semi-classical numbers.  Is Mod se, Meri Awaz Hi, Beete Na Bitaai Raina are annoyingly similar.  But RD was brilliant with his arrangements and was effectively able to cover up this weakness.  For melodies, I would rank MSV (or any of the 60s greats barring OP) a pretty long way ahead of RD.  There is this book called R D Burman The Man The Music where his music is discussed in some depth (not a lot, mind, not really getting into concepts but at least they try to break down individual songs for what made them unique) and it is noted in that book that R D didn't have much patience with either form of classical music and was drawn to jazz, psychedelic rock from an early age. He had an intuitive knack probably for working out these things.  

Anyhow, back to boldness, I don't know a single song of 70s RD that's as bold as this:


Songs like Monica or Hare Krishna Hare Rama may have been sonically bold but the above and a bunch of other mid/late 60s are bold even in concept.  There is a counter intuitive quality about these tracks that probably did not make it easy to digest at that point, especially because nobody else in HFM had even dreamed of music like this. The only track in the 70s where he again captured this quality was Tere Bina Jiya Jaaye Na.

Also, re Aa Jaane Ja, Lata was reluctant to sing even that song but did so at the behest of LP whom she was close to.


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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  crimson king on Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:37 am

Raaga_Suresh wrote:CR,

I don't think Naushad was a trendsetter. He was quite popular without doubt but he didn't really bring in something very new. He was more evolutionary building on what others like Kemchand Prakash (who did wonderful classical music based movies) and Anil Biswas. I feel the same about S D Burman. He was great that he could change wonderfully with the times but he never did set a trend like RDB.

Yes, RDB's main success came in early 70s but Padosan did have the sound he would use later. The songs of Padosan were great hits, especially 'mere samne wale kidki mein'. The movies which really took him to lofty heights of stardom were 'Aradhana' (yes, S D Burman is credited for the songs) and 'Hare Rama Hare Krishna'. 

I did not dwell too much on the Lata Asha divide because it wasn't as lopsided as Kishore Rafi divide. (I anyway plan to talk about Asha Burman in the next part)


Naushad was the first to explore the upper register of Rafi and Lata who were until then made to sing like Saigal or Noor Jehan respectively.  Also introduced long tracks with different tunes for the antara as well as different interludes.  Rakhwale has four antaras and all four have different tunes, I don't think there is a single song like that in the entire HFM oeuvre. He established the template for period films which would be followed up to the mid/late 60s (largely because he dominated that market).  Even SJ closely imitated Naushad for Basant Bahar because Baiju Bawra became the gold standard for films with classical music.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:40 am

CR,

I do not know about Rafi but in case of Lata, MDs like Anil Biswas and Kemchand Prakash got her out of the Noorjahan mold in the late 40s. Not to mention a few terrific songs that Sajjad HUssain gave for her. Lata is on record about all these three music director's contribution in her development as a singer.

As far as period films are concerned, almost all drew from Kemchand Prakash's 'Tansen'. Naushad was working as a sort of assistant to Kemchand Prakash during that time and Naushad himself says that he was very inspired by Kemchand Prakash and that his own classical music based films did not rise to the standard of 'Tansen'.

A lot depends on how we define trend setters. Naushad was definitely the most successful MD of that era and hence his impact cannot be underestimated. Yet from a drastic break in the overall musical structure point of view I would think that the most famous music directors like Naushad, Shankar Jaikishen, Vishwanathan Ramamurthy, K V Mahadev and Rajeshwar Rao evolved into the system. Not that their impact or contribution to film music was any less that the trendsetters (you can even argue it is more). Just that it was not as abrupt as that of the trendsetters.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Fri Aug 28, 2015 6:57 am

You had sort of anticipated my coming posts which is about the repetitiveness of MSV's music hurting him while the same repetitiveness was used to great effect by R D Burman in the 70s Smile) R D's template was fairly limited in my opinion that is why he was never able to rise beyond the small and medium budget movies where is melodic approach worked the best. When the movies became larger than life with a big canvas that sound was ineffective. Like in case of 'Sholay', 'Shalimar', 'Shaan', 'Burning Train' etc.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Fri Aug 28, 2015 10:25 am

MSV Part 11: The R D Burman influence

http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/08/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-11.html

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Usha on Fri Aug 28, 2015 2:15 pm

Suresh,
         
           Great posts......... Thank u.........

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  ravinat on Fri Aug 28, 2015 3:00 pm

Raaga_Suresh wrote:MSV Part 11: The R D Burman influence

http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/08/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-11.html
Suresh

Very good observation about the reach of the three musicians. 

In terms of true touchpoints RD stands tall followed by Raja and then AR.

Though AR has the greatest geographical impact.

An important yardstick is how dense your touchpoints are. Raja is perhaps the densest I guess

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  ravinat on Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:09 pm

crimson king wrote:
ravinat wrote:
CK

  What boldness did RD lose? How many composers of his time did a Andhi or a Kinara? Some of RD's background scores in the 70s were much bolder than his 60s.

   Lata did try a few cabaret songs such as Aah Jaane Jaa with LP, but paled away before her sister. Though I have followed RD very closely, I still have not had a clear view into his understanding of WCM. He thrived on improvisation and more by hearing than formal training in my view.  That way, he could easily beat MSV in his game. With his HCM training, melodies came easily for him. As I had mentioned in my guest post in Suresh's blog, RD owned the 70s.

  Anyway, we can go on and on about RD...


Yes, Aandhi and Kinara were bold for THEIR time.  The time being the mid-late 70s by when only Khaiyyam and Jaidev from the 60s greats were still thriving (I don't think LP and Kalyanji Anandji's work in the 70s can be put on the same pedestal as Gharaunda or Kabhi Kabhi!).  In a way, RD himself precipitated the decline of HFM over a period of time with the emphasis on rhythm over melody.  And on that note, I would disagree about his melodies.  I have noticed that he used to blatantly recycle what half a stanza of melody from one song for another. Listen closely to Raat Kali and Pyar Diwana Hota Hai and the antara of the latter is just a clever rearrangement of the former.  This weakness became even more glaring in his semi-classical numbers.  Is Mod se, Meri Awaz Hi, Beete Na Bitaai Raina are annoyingly similar.  But RD was brilliant with his arrangements and was effectively able to cover up this weakness.  For melodies, I would rank MSV (or any of the 60s greats barring OP) a pretty long way ahead of RD.  There is this book called R D Burman The Man The Music where his music is discussed in some depth (not a lot, mind, not really getting into concepts but at least they try to break down individual songs for what made them unique) and it is noted in that book that R D didn't have much patience with either form of classical music and was drawn to jazz, psychedelic rock from an early age. He had an intuitive knack probably for working out these things.  

Anyhow, back to boldness, I don't know a single song of 70s RD that's as bold as this:


Songs like Monica or Hare Krishna Hare Rama may have been sonically bold but the above and a bunch of other mid/late 60s are bold even in concept.  There is a counter intuitive quality about these tracks that probably did not make it easy to digest at that point, especially because nobody else in HFM had even dreamed of music like this. The only track in the 70s where he again captured this quality was Tere Bina Jiya Jaaye Na.

Also, re Aa Jaane Ja, Lata was reluctant to sing even that song but did so at the behest of LP whom she was close to.

CK

  Interesting views. In my view, after RD suddenly lost his confidence in the mid 80s, it was a slippery slope for HFM. You must hear 'Jamuna Ki Kinare' in the 80s by Lata for RD - you can see the old sheen missing. Not sure if you have heard 'Dil Padosi Hai' - this is RD without filmi pressures jamming with Gulzar and Asha. To this day, I hear this album. This one alone shows his versatility.

  To me, Kya Jaanu Sanjan does not sound any bold, compared to RD's 70s. You should also hear Ijaazat, which has a lot of Raja influence in orchestration. In my view, the last of the fine albums of RD.  Dismissing Tere Bina Jiya Jaye Naa as the only one that captured that quality is very unfair. If MSV had a Nenjam Marapathillai, RD had a Do Nainon Mein. If MSV had a Sonnadhu Neethane, RD had Naam Bhool Jayega. If MSV had a Mayakkama Kalakkama, RD had a Kuch To Log Kahenge. If MSV had Nilave Ennidam Nerungathe, RD had Chingari Koi. In terms of melody, MSV did that for a longer time than RD.

  There are only three musicians whose entire discography I have - RD, Raja and JW.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Fri Aug 28, 2015 4:40 pm

Thanks Ravi.

Geographic density is a good metric Smile Though we cannot really define it. As I said Rahman reached beyond Indian shores to Indians in other parts of the globe. My feeling is that RD would have reached the same audience had the communication apparatus been the same as today. (I am not saying he would have for Oscar and all. Just that his music would have reached beyond Indian shores easily)

Raja is a different monster. As you say, if you take the density of reach and the total people reached (no way of measuring this) my guess is Raja would have reached the most. And if you take the number of songs that reached this population, then there is no competition. For all said and done, in case of both RD and Rahman the max songs which reached everyone would be around 50. If I am generous maybe 75? I am sure the common man knows hundreds of Raja songs by heart.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  ravinat on Fri Aug 28, 2015 7:55 pm

Raaga_Suresh wrote:Thanks Ravi.

Geographic density is a good metric Smile Though we cannot really define it. As I said Rahman reached beyond Indian shores to Indians in other parts of the globe. My feeling is that RD would have reached the same audience had the communication apparatus been the same as today. (I am not saying he would have for Oscar and all. Just that his music would have reached beyond Indian shores easily)

Raja is a different monster. As you say, if you take the density of reach and the total people reached (no way of measuring this) my guess is Raja would have reached the most. And if you take the number of songs that reached this population, then there is no competition. For all said and done, in case of both RD and Rahman the max songs which reached everyone would be around 50. If I am generous maybe 75? I am sure the common man knows hundreds of Raja songs by heart.

The most common thing about MSV and RD is this: both of them did not get any national recognition from GOI.

We have to hang our heads in shame for MSV as he lived till 2015 and there were plenty of opportunities for late recognition unlike RD, who died young.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  plum on Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:56 pm

Suresh : I think S-J deserve to be called trendsetters. Not so much because of absolute quality of the trend that they set as  because of the fact that they did. Laxmi-P and K-A pretty much are S-J lite for most of 60s and early 70s. This is infact my key to recognising them.

And when you hear them, you actually realise there are worse ways to do what S-J did, pale as they do before other giants.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  plum on Fri Aug 28, 2015 8:58 pm

Suresh : I think S-J deserve to be called trendsetters. Not so much because of absolute quality of the trend that they set as  because of the fact that they did. Laxmi-P and K-A pretty much are S-J lite for most of 60s and early 70s. This is infact my key to recognising them.

And when you hear them, you actually realise there are worse ways to do what S-J did, pale as they do before other giants.
Of course, one shouldn't forget that all 4 were assistants of S-J to begin with. So, given HFM tradition, I might be attirbuting to S-J what L, P, K or A contributed during their apprenticeship.  Nevertheless, the absolute quality of orchestration, though similar in style, seems a pale imitation when K-A and L-P are at helm, so that probably points to other talented players in the S-J troupe or Jaikishen himself as the source for S-J's best in orchestration

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:30 am

Plum,

I understand what CR is saying about Naushad and what you are saying about SJ. I think the difference in opinion stems from my usage of the word 'trendsetter' and what I think it means. If I interpret trend in a literal sense then what you say and what CR says is very much true and Naushad and SJ did set a trend. I am interpreting this more as someone who came in and disrupted what was standard at those times with their new style. So the trend here I am referring to may be short lived, as in O P Nayyar's trend, or could have long lasting impact as R D Burman's trend. I personally feel both Naushad and SJ came slowly to become the dominant MDs of their time. Hence I used the word evolution in their case. Their domination was not abrupt nor was their domination based on abruptly disrupting the style of those days. They built their own style slowly and evolved into being successful music directors. Hope that clarifies my line of though wrt the trendsetters.

Coming to the impact I have no argument with CR's line that Naushad gave the template for certain type of songs/movies and your assessment of SJ's contribution. Infact this is what I wrote about SJ in my blog:

"Shankar Jaikishen were one of the most famous composers in Hindi film music history. They had created lot of melodies which were huge hits. Their association with Raj Kapoor and his RK films is legendary. As can be expected with music directors who were doing lot of movies, you got some gems and you also got lot of not so great tunes. All said and done, they left a lasting impression on Hindi film music. I would say that only two styles have survived in Hindi film music. One that of Shankar Jaikishen, which came through Kalyanji Anandji, LP and then through Anu Malik. The other style is that of RD Burman. You can even now hear the SJ style in modern Hindi music. The loops, samples and recording techniques may have become modern but the soul of many of the songs still remains similar to what SJ did a long time back. And whenever I go to North India and the cab driver plays his favourite songs, invariably the tune has the style of Shankar Jaikishan!!! While I have to confess that my love for music directors like Madanmohan, Roshan, Salilda, Dada Burman and few others is more than that for SJ's music, I cannot discount the fact that SJ's impact on Hindi film music is very high and also the fact that they did create some very delectable melodies."


http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2011/04/one-song-at-time-37-yeh-shaam-ki.html

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  crimson king on Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:35 pm

I agree that neither SJ nor Naushad were disruptors but then nor were most music directors of the time.  I don't know if I would consider anybody after Anil Biswas and before RDB as a disruptor.  RDB was certainly a disruptor.  By the same token, I wouldn't call even IR a disruptor.  He had some overlap with MSV/Rajan Nagendra in the initial years (it took me a long time to find out Ore Naal Unnai Naan was in fact IR) and gradually slid in his daring innovations over a period of time.  The true IR sound didn't emerge before 1978/79 at the earliest and probably only got fully rolling by 1980 with films like Moodupani, Nizhalgal.  Yeah, I implied trendsetter more in the sense of somebody who brought something new to the table musically whereby they carved out a niche for themselves.  I wouldn't consider MM a trendsetter as much as I love his compositions because it was very much in the mould of SJ, SDB, CR (depending on the composition) and he differentiated himself more through his treatment of the raags.  But Naushad, OP, SJ, SDB were all trendsetters in my book.  I would even consider SJ a game changer because they took dance music to a then new level of vigour through the Shammi films.  I don't consider it disruptive because they took their time to establish themselves and the progression to the Shammi films was gradual.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  crimson king on Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:38 pm

plum wrote:
Suresh : I think S-J deserve to be called trendsetters. Not so much because of absolute quality of the trend that they set as  because of the fact that they did. Laxmi-P and K-A pretty much are S-J lite for most of 60s and early 70s. This is infact my key to recognising them.

And when you hear them, you actually realise there are worse ways to do what S-J did, pale as they do before other giants.
Of course, one shouldn't forget that all 4 were assistants of S-J to begin with. So, given HFM tradition, I might be attirbuting to S-J what L, P, K or A contributed during their apprenticeship.  Nevertheless, the absolute quality of orchestration, though similar in style, seems a pale imitation when K-A and L-P are at helm, so that probably points to other talented players in the S-J troupe or Jaikishen himself as the source for S-J's best in orchestration

I think the difference was mainly one of tastefulness.  SJ's songs, even the uptempo ones, usually stayed pleasant.  Compare say Dooriyan to Chhup Gaye Saare.  Even with Kishore's vocals in the former and Rafi's in the latter, the former has a light, breezy touch that LP never could master nor KA.  I think both LP and KA were strong in folk-based tunes.  LP gave some of the best Rafi-Lata duets of all like Ruth Bekarar Hai, Yeh Dil Tum Bin, Woh Jab Yaad Aaye and KA composed the best Mukesh solos, arguably better than even SJ - Chandan sa bandan, humne tujhko pyar, mujhko is raat. SJ handled percussions gently where both LP and KA went overboard.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  crimson king on Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:44 pm

ravinat wrote:
crimson king wrote:
ravinat wrote:
CK

  What boldness did RD lose? How many composers of his time did a Andhi or a Kinara? Some of RD's background scores in the 70s were much bolder than his 60s.

   Lata did try a few cabaret songs such as Aah Jaane Jaa with LP, but paled away before her sister. Though I have followed RD very closely, I still have not had a clear view into his understanding of WCM. He thrived on improvisation and more by hearing than formal training in my view.  That way, he could easily beat MSV in his game. With his HCM training, melodies came easily for him. As I had mentioned in my guest post in Suresh's blog, RD owned the 70s.

  Anyway, we can go on and on about RD...


Yes, Aandhi and Kinara were bold for THEIR time.  The time being the mid-late 70s by when only Khaiyyam and Jaidev from the 60s greats were still thriving (I don't think LP and Kalyanji Anandji's work in the 70s can be put on the same pedestal as Gharaunda or Kabhi Kabhi!).  In a way, RD himself precipitated the decline of HFM over a period of time with the emphasis on rhythm over melody.  And on that note, I would disagree about his melodies.  I have noticed that he used to blatantly recycle what half a stanza of melody from one song for another. Listen closely to Raat Kali and Pyar Diwana Hota Hai and the antara of the latter is just a clever rearrangement of the former.  This weakness became even more glaring in his semi-classical numbers.  Is Mod se, Meri Awaz Hi, Beete Na Bitaai Raina are annoyingly similar.  But RD was brilliant with his arrangements and was effectively able to cover up this weakness.  For melodies, I would rank MSV (or any of the 60s greats barring OP) a pretty long way ahead of RD.  There is this book called R D Burman The Man The Music where his music is discussed in some depth (not a lot, mind, not really getting into concepts but at least they try to break down individual songs for what made them unique) and it is noted in that book that R D didn't have much patience with either form of classical music and was drawn to jazz, psychedelic rock from an early age. He had an intuitive knack probably for working out these things.  

Anyhow, back to boldness, I don't know a single song of 70s RD that's as bold as this:


Songs like Monica or Hare Krishna Hare Rama may have been sonically bold but the above and a bunch of other mid/late 60s are bold even in concept.  There is a counter intuitive quality about these tracks that probably did not make it easy to digest at that point, especially because nobody else in HFM had even dreamed of music like this. The only track in the 70s where he again captured this quality was Tere Bina Jiya Jaaye Na.

Also, re Aa Jaane Ja, Lata was reluctant to sing even that song but did so at the behest of LP whom she was close to.

CK

  Interesting views. In my view, after RD suddenly lost his confidence in the mid 80s, it was a slippery slope for HFM. You must hear 'Jamuna Ki Kinare' in the 80s by Lata for RD - you can see the old sheen missing. Not sure if you have heard 'Dil Padosi Hai' - this is RD without filmi pressures jamming with Gulzar and Asha. To this day, I hear this album. This one alone shows his versatility.

  To me, Kya Jaanu Sanjan does not sound any bold, compared to RD's 70s. You should also hear Ijaazat, which has a lot of Raja influence in orchestration. In my view, the last of the fine albums of RD.  Dismissing Tere Bina Jiya Jaye Naa as the only one that captured that quality is very unfair. If MSV had a Nenjam Marapathillai, RD had a Do Nainon Mein. If MSV had a Sonnadhu Neethane, RD had Naam Bhool Jayega. If MSV had a Mayakkama Kalakkama, RD had a Kuch To Log Kahenge. If MSV had Nilave Ennidam Nerungathe, RD had Chingari Koi. In terms of melody, MSV did that for a longer time than RD.

  There are only three musicians whose entire discography I have - RD, Raja and JW.


I am not dismissing his work so much as comparing his 60s work to his 70s.  I do like, nay love, a lot of his 70s work but I maintain that he had to dilute the subversive quality of his music somewhat to get widespread acceptance (commercially).  Only three IFM composers (at least from Hindi and Tamil) ever tried to be subversive - MM, RDB and IR.  I think RDB admired MM's work a lot and IR too has professed his fondness for MM's work so both may have been influenced by MM to delve into the dark side which most film music directors religiously avoided.  In a song like Aaja Mere Humdum I do hear echoes of MM without actually sounding like an MM imitation.  It's a shame imo that these films didn't get the credit that they deserve. RD was so talented but was forced to filter it in a certain way so that the audience would like his music.   As for the MSV-RD comparisons you made, again I would respectfully agree to disagree.  Esp Nilave Ennidam is a melody of great depth.  Chingari is one of my least favourite RD songs.  I do agree that his loss of confidence in the 80s accelerated his decline.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Wed Sep 02, 2015 3:19 pm

Part 12 of MSV Article is up for your viewing pleasure Smile 

http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/09/his-music-and-his-times-part-12-early.html

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  ravinat on Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:59 pm

Raaga_Suresh wrote:Part 12 of MSV Article is up for your viewing pleasure Smile 

http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/09/his-music-and-his-times-part-12-early.html
Suresh

  Nice observations on SPB and KJY in the 70s.

  Like most veterans , Balu's voice has had 4 phases.

  The 60s was his innocent phase wherehe was coming to grips with proper diction.  He was a newbie though very talented. He could not emote much but his voice carried him on many songs.

  The 70s was his consolidation phase where he not only got over his diction issues , he learned how to emote very well. He soon became the favorite of several MDs and won his first National recognition.

  The 80s and 90s were his Master phase where most hits were straight out of the park. His voice had no visible limits though he has said in interviews that only he knows the number of songs he has turned down. These 20 years were his singing machine years. No human in history can come close to his performance in these two decades. Raja sharpened, oiled, rounded the machine with some crazy assignments.

  The post 90s has been the legend phase. With the exception of Malayalam, he has the status of a local singer in the other three languages.

  What about Yesudas? While most of his development took place in the 60s , I have not seen him grow signifantly in variety and film music capability beyond that. Balu's transformation beyond late 70s is a thing to wonder that has no parralel.

  No singer in the Indian playback world has been as versatile as SPB.  Even today , when he sings 'Enge irundhai' for Imann in Jeeva , he demonstrates his mastery over his trade. I could not see the same caliber of emotions with Yesudas when he sang for Imann in Sigaram thodu.

  To me ,  it's been Balu for the past 49 years and shows no sign of changing.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:44 pm

Ravi,

Discussing singers can be as dangerous as discussing actors Smile) So I will pass Smile

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Usha on Fri Sep 04, 2015 12:49 pm

ravinat,

       Suresh..   SPByai Great singer aga accept panna matar... TFMpage  days experience enaku.

 Nyabagam vandhadhu.....  SPB thread.. think so...

IR songs.. ethanaiyo pattu... eduthu sonnen... ella post um padichitu.. oru comment... from Suresh...........  SPB..  kuralil nadikirar endru.........

apparam nirithu kondu vitten.......


andha suresh aga than ipodhum irukirar endru ninaikiren......... Embarassed

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:23 pm

Usha,

Ha Ha Ha Ha.

We did have an argument about SPB but it was respect to his English pronunciation. I felt and still feel his pronunciation is horrible when he sings English. You feel he is OK. Other than that we never had any major arguments there. Ofcourse I have no reservation is agreeing to the greatness of SPB as a singer.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Fri Sep 04, 2015 5:05 pm

MSV Part 13: http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/09/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-13.html An assessment of TFM during early 70s before arrival of Raja

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