RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  ravinat on Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:12 pm

Raaga_Suresh wrote:"Another thing, the massive wave of nostalgia post RD's death also helped the music of 1942.  It wasn't by itself exceptional and there was not one song with the verve usually associated with RD. "

CR,

I am fully with you on this. When '1942' was released the most generous I could be was 'this is an OK album'. It was nostalgia and love for RD which was working. There is no way you can take in '1942' into the RD canon. 

Yes, Lata singing in the 80s itself was atrocious. Her singing in 1990s was terrible and yet they somehow managed to control the film industry through their hand chosen MDs. Added to it there were producers like Yash Chopra who wanted only Lata to sing in their movies. Her dominance in the Hindi film music field is still a big mystery for me.

I disagree CK and Suresh on '1942' not being in the RD league.

In my view, the old RD fervor was definitely there  in some tracks:

 - Pyar Hua Chupke Se -  in Desh and nicely sang by KK. I heard her sing live last week here.
 - Yeh Safar - Bengali folk by Shivaji Chatopadyaya - typical RD Bengali vintage stuff. Nice lyrics and does not get better.

Compared to the trash coming out in HFM at that time, this was definitely a refresher.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  crimson king on Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:36 pm

Pyar Hua was a nice tune.  But the handling was almost like the way his father would have handled it: so mellow, so 'Bhadralok' basically. I get that vibe even more from Yeh Safar.  I remember when this soundtrack came out, the part where the saxophone comes on in Rhim Jhim Rhim Jhim was what my father described as sounding at least a bit RDB ish.  It's not that it's a bad album and yes the 'competition' made it sound even better but it's catapulted into his canon, as Suresh said, and it doesn't belong there.  There's no way I would include it in a best RD soundtracks list, say along side Ghar, Aandhi, Teesri Manzil, Padosan, Parichay among so many others and would probably take even Deewar with its two Kishore-Asha duets over it.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  crimson king on Fri Sep 11, 2015 5:41 pm

Raaga_Suresh wrote:"Another thing, the massive wave of nostalgia post RD's death also helped the music of 1942.  It wasn't by itself exceptional and there was not one song with the verve usually associated with RD. "

CR,

I am fully with you on this. When '1942' was released the most generous I could be was 'this is an OK album'. It was nostalgia and love for RD which was working. There is no way you can take in '1942' into the RD canon. 

Yes, Lata singing in the 80s itself was atrocious. Her singing in 1990s was terrible and yet they somehow managed to control the film industry through their hand chosen MDs. Added to it there were producers like Yash Chopra who wanted only Lata to sing in their movies. Her dominance in the Hindi film music field is still a big mystery for me.

Re Lata, maybe she had 'local' contacts, who knows In Asha's case, it's more transparent at least:  she was married to OP and RD though there's no official confirmation of the deed and thus worked her way to the top tier of Hindi film music. Looking at their domination of HFM, I think IR's tendency to underplay the singers' contribution, even if it occasionally comes across as churlish, is probably justified.  Because if he did publicly declare that such and such singer made a particular track, then his generous compliment might perhaps get to their head, esp coming from somebody of his stature.  The composer should have primacy at the end of the day and even at the cost of alienating some people, IR has at least maintained that instead of being subservient to singers.


Last edited by crimson king on Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:17 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  ravinat on Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:23 pm

crimson king wrote:
Raaga_Suresh wrote:"Another thing, the massive wave of nostalgia post RD's death also helped the music of 1942.  It wasn't by itself exceptional and there was not one song with the verve usually associated with RD. "

CR,

I am fully with you on this. When '1942' was released the most generous I could be was 'this is an OK album'. It was nostalgia and love for RD which was working. There is no way you can take in '1942' into the RD canon. 

Yes, Lata singing in the 80s itself was atrocious. Her singing in 1990s was terrible and yet they somehow managed to control the film industry through their hand chosen MDs. Added to it there were producers like Yash Chopra who wanted only Lata to sing in their movies. Her dominance in the Hindi film music field is still a big mystery for me.

Re Lata, maybe she had 'local' contacts, who knows. In Asha's case, it's more transparent at least:  she was married to OP and RD though there's no official confirmation of the deed and thus worked her way to the top tier of Hindi film music. Looking at their domination of HFM, I think IR's tendency to underplay the singers' contribution, even if it occasionally comes across as churlish, is probably justified.  Because if he did publicly declare that such and such singer made a particular track, then his generous compliment might perhaps get to their head, esp coming from somebody of his stature.  The composer should have primacy at the end of the day and even at the cost of alienating some people, IR has at least maintained that instead of being subservient to singers.
CK

  This is completely unacceptable for a self governed forum. It is fine for us to disagree and argue. However, passing such comments that are very circumspect is unacceptable. Though I am not the moderator of this forum, I will leave the forum if I see one more post on these lines.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:58 pm

CR,

I agree with Ravi. It would be good if you can delete off the offending lines.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  crimson king on Sat Sep 12, 2015 6:19 am

I have taken back the part about Lata which was just pure psycho speculation on my part and I apologize for indulging myself there.  But the part about Asha has been confirmed by both OP and RDB.  She can keep denying it if she likes; both of them cannot be wrong.  If that is unacceptable, so is posting innuendo about Rahman which this forum constantly indulges in.  Me, I don't have any sacred cows, least of all the Mangeshkar sisters who blocked a flyover that would have saved crores of rupees worth of fuel (on account of the time presently lost in the horrid Pedder Rd gridlock).

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  app_engine on Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:18 pm

Fair enough, CK! 

Appreciate it!!

Ravinat sir, I've replicated the change in the quote inside your post.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Sat Sep 12, 2015 2:59 pm

The penultimate part in the MSV series: http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/09/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-16.html

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  app_engine on Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:30 pm

Raaga_Suresh wrote:The penultimate part in the MSV series: http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/09/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-16.html

Another nice one, Sureshji!

Listened to the awesome erikanal kAtRil for the first time Embarassed 

That low frequency flute sound வயிற்றைப் பிசைய OhOhO! 

This is a rare, terrific number!

As posted in twitter, my periyammA paiyan happened to see the FB links of your MSV series. 

Here is what he had to message me last evening :


Articles on MSV by Suresh are fantastic. Immense pleasure in reading the sound analysis. Thanks for sharing.

Very rare analysis about a legend without moving with him. kalappettagam about legend. Expecting a series on Ilayaraja.

(Actually I've only clicked the "like" icon on Sureshji's links posted on FB. Not "shared" them in the technical sense. 
It possibly appeared on his timeline and he started reading - otherwise, he had never been to our forum(s) Smile 
Hope he never read any of my blA-blAs Laughing Laughing )

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:03 pm

app,

Smile I am sure your cousin will be maha impressed if he starts reading the series you write regularly. Maybe you should point him to that?

I am surprised that you haven't heard 'erikanal katril' I thought by default you would have heard it. There is a Raja version as well and Rajasaranam had once spoken about both versions and their differences. The whole album is an amazing one.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:50 pm

The concluding part of the MSV series: http://sureshs65music.blogspot.in/2015/09/msv-his-music-and-his-times-part-17-his.html

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  kiru on Mon Sep 21, 2015 3:11 am

Suresh, I want to express my heartfelt thanks and appreciation for writing this series on MSV. He is a legend and part and parcel of a tamil person's life in the last century. I learnt a lot and was completely reminded of the genius of this humble man. You are fortunate that you are not only getting appreciation from ordinary people like me but also from wise people like your father-in-law (you have to live up to high standards in your social circle, I guess Smile  )
Again, even though, I am a novice in music, I want to express some opinions of mine which you or knowledgeable people like Ravi can correct here. You mention that IR is a 'discontinuity'. I think he is the perfect 'continuity' for the music genre that our esteemed MDs of the past tried to evolve. I personally think IR is MSV 2.0 (and ARR is MSV -1.0  sorry that is how m relative scales work Sad  ). If MSV used WCM in preludes/interludes, I think, tried to use it even in the main melody. That is why the tunes look different, otherwise the tune has the same 'body and feel'. But IR himself did not push this model too much fearing that the 'indian ear' will not welcome this that much. He did take those steps starting with NEPV (I call that IR 2.0). 
Re: ARR following MSV. It is difficult to follow IR when it comes to implementing WCM techniques. It is more like 'multi-threaded programming' in the software parlance and many programmers will never get it right or will get stuck debugging their code. It takes a different set of mental framework. 
Re: ARR as a phenomenon - any new successful MD brings in his own sound - whatever be my opinion of ARR - he did bring in a new sound - both in rhythm arrangements and tune . I am not musically good enough to comment on the tune being like MSV, but I can hear his tune having a very distinct anglicized style to it. Even's IR's tune will have a relatively 'modern twist' compared to MSVs. I think this is natural evolution of our social and cultural norms. ARR did it for his generation very successfully.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Mon Sep 21, 2015 7:56 pm

Thanks Kiru for the reply.

Like CR pointed out, IR was continuous in one sense and a discontinuity in another sense. As I had mentioned he was discontinuous in his approach to a film song. He was continuous in the sense that his song still sounded like a typical Indian film song.

No doubt about Rahman's success or the new sounds he brought but as you say his tunes were so simple that he was indeed MSV -1.0 Smile)

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Sakalakala Vallavar on Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:58 pm

Just now என்னுள்ளில் MSV got over in Sun TV! AFter long time i saw my parents watching a program after 10 pm in TV and were praising raja all along! And pleasant surprise is they knew almost all the songs!!!

Btw, Munk, found that Mozart connection?! I missed it when raja spoke..

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Drunkenmunk on Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:59 am

Sakalakala Vallavar wrote:Just now என்னுள்ளில் MSV got over in Sun TV! AFter long time i saw my parents watching a program after 10 pm in TV and were praising raja all along! And pleasant surprise is they knew almost all the songs!!!

Btw, Munk, found that Mozart connection?! I missed it when raja spoke..
illeenga. nEthu oru 2-3 songs pAthEn but was tired after a personal trip. So thoongi pOittEn. YT la varum. pAthukkalAm.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  Sakalakala Vallavar on Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:17 pm

Till sun tv uploads, ppl can watch fom this link!

http://www.tamiltvshows.net/2015/09/isaignani-ilayarajas-ennullil-msv-27-09-2015-sun-tv-show-ilayaraja-musical-tribute-ennullil-msv-27-09-15/

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  app_engine on Tue Sep 29, 2015 6:54 pm

Was listening to 'kuzhaloodhum kaNNanukku" & "ooru sanam" of MTK on the way to work.

Was also thinking about the tweet by someone as to "how IR had done a whole concert of someone else's compositions as a mark of respect - despite having a reputation of the most egoistic fellow in the industry, while many others are praised humble".

I think TN-ers need to be told repeatedly of this fact, பலமுறை தலையில் தட்டி உணர்த்த வேண்டிய பெர்ர்ர்ரிய விஷயம் இது!

Here we have an artist from our land, who is ruthlessly condemned by most media fellows and blog fellows alike, as the most "head-weight" fellow.

That is, despite being a music genius - one without too many parallels in the entire world (and even history) and not just the country / state! That way, totally deserving of any kind of superlative praises / positioning etc but actually not given due recognition, i.e. accolades and awards in line with his talent or achievements. 

On the contrary, most of the time given only brickbats by people - fellows who don't even have a decimal fraction of his capabilities or achievements!

Unmindful of all these, this man keeps giving fantastic music and is on his own trip!

Interestingly, on every occasion that Ilayaraja plans to do a concert, there's always this difficulty of "which song to pick and which to leave". He has that many superlative numbers that it's often a big trouble to pick / leave. If someone wants me to pick even a "100 IR song list" for an occasion / concert, I will have difficulty Embarassed There'll be easily many hundreds with which I'll be battling with. Why, even a non HC-fan (well, need not be even a fan, any average person from TN / SL / AP) can't easily limit 100 songs of Ilayaraja that they love, as there'll be more! 

With that kind of huge output and lifetime record, here we have this man doing a concert - COMPLETELY WITH SONGS OF ANOTHER composer! 

Something unprecedented in the entire music world, i.e. at that competency level, IMHO! 

One cannot show his appreciation / reverence to another human in any bigger manner! And by extension, it is a supreme display of humility (and one without such open claims Laughing ) ! 

IR's humility / reverence / submission towards music is so beautifully showcased in this ennuLLil MSV tribute!

It is our responsibility to appreciate this and to repeat telling people 1000's of times, hoping that at least some of them - those with minimum capacity to reason - will get it! 

(Well, this is not the first time that IR displayed humility towards music - another e.g. was the one demonstrated by MTK & the songs I quoted in the beginning! There had been just too many occasions like that and all one needs is just some open mind to acknowledge the fact)

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  jaiganesh on Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:28 am

மீண்டும் மீண்டும் ராஜா வலியுறுத்தி சொன்னது..
தமிழ் சந்தங்களுடன் எம்.எஸ்.வியும் கவிஞரும் விளையாடிய விதம்
ரிதமிக் ஸ்றக்சர்.. இது எத்தனை பேருக்குப்புரிந்ததோ தெரியவில்லை..

இது ஒருபுறம்.. 
மீண்டும் வலியுறுத்தியது.. சி.ஆர்.சுப்பராமனில் துவங்கிய ஒரு பாரம்பர்யம் எம்.எஸ்.வி மூலம் தன்னுடன் இணைந்தது..
இங்கு (அமெரிக்காவில்) ஜெயமோகன் பேசும் போது பேசிய ஒரு விஷயத்துடன் தொடர்புடையது.
அதாவது.. இந்தியக்கலை என்பது இதற்கு முன் இருந்ததை மறுத்தோ மறந்தோ படைப்பது அல்ல..
அது ஐரோப்பியர்களின் மயக்கம் (தனித்துவம்). இங்கு படைப்புகள் ஒன்றிலிருந்தே ஒன்றாக விளைகின்றன.
ஒரு கோயிலில் பல்லாயிரக்கணக்கான சிற்பங்கள். அவற்றில் அனைத்தும் தனியாக ப்ரத்யேகமாக உருவானவை அல்ல.
இதற்கு முன் இருந்த கோவிலின் ஆக்கத்தை மீள வைத்து அதிலிருந்து அதை அழகியலில் முன்செலுத்தும் ஒரு அம்சம் அடங்கிய
ஒரு படைப்பு முறை.. அதைப்போல, ராஜா எம்.எஸ்.வியிடமிடுந்து தன்னை விலக்கிக்கொள்ளவில்லை. மாறாக அவரிடமிருந்து
 தொடங்கி ஒவ்வொரு படியாக ஒரு அழகியல் பாரம்பர்யத்தை முன்னெடுத்துச்செல்கிறார். இடையில் 90களில் ராஜாவிடமிருந்து
 விலக வேண்டும் என்று எல்லா இசையமைப்பாளர்களும் முயன்று தோற்று, இப்போது பெருமையுடன் ராஜாவின் பாரம்பர்யத்தில்
 சரணடைந்து வருகின்றனர். ராஜா சொன்ன விஷயம் கொஞ்சம் உறைத்தாலும் அவர்கள், ராஜவை எம்.எஸ்.வியின் வழித்தோன்றலாக
 உணர்ந்து தங்களை அடுத்த வழித்தோன்றலாக தகுதிப்படுத்திக்கொள்ளும் பணியில் ஈடுபடுவார்கள்.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  kiru on Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:41 am

app and jai ..I am completely with both of you on your individual points. IR is not arrogant, only MDs who think they are creating new who are arrogant..IR is only trying to beat the masters he knows.. he is always trying and I am sure he never thinks he has beaten .. he just keeps trying and trying !!! This is what takes him further and further and the masters themselves are bestowing their blessings from above. 
First, one has to be rasika, before being a creator .. IR proves it here.. if you cannot appreciate something good, how can you create something good. Rajnikant's speech was good.. of the singers, I liked Shweta Mohan and the veena player ..both instrument playing and vocals. Some people dont like IR's singing.. but he is the one who can accurately reproduce the old songs with all the details as he demonstrated here.

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  mythila on Fri Oct 09, 2015 6:39 pm

Enjoyed the sun TV telecast of the "ennuL MSV" concert even if the channel chose a non prime time to show it. Few songs like Raja's most favoured "mAlai pozhudhin " , esp the lilting veenai portions played very beautifully by the lady whose name I would like to know and the jazz interludes in "Subramanyam sORRu vEnum" were goose flesh inducing moments. I doubt some "RAjA vin kai vaNNam" for these.
Also songs like "ulagE mAyam". "Adai katti vandha nilavO", "pAttukku pAtteduthu" which have so far never caught my attention seemed to glow with a new sheen.
idhu dhAn RAjA vin golden touch pOla.
enna mAyam seidhAi rAjA vE , nEE endrum sakala sowbhagyangaLudan vaazhga!

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Re: RIP Mellisai mannar MSV

Post  counterpoint on Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:30 pm

I saw this tribute concert only now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C63VVQTreM

At the end of this glorious tribute when MSV's daughter came on stage and with teary eyes said "enga appavukku kooda pirandhavanga yaarum kidayaadhu..nimishaththukku 100 thadava aNNa aNNanu solradhu ivar oruthar dhaan"and pointed to IR, I couldn't stop from getting teared up. And when "ULLathil nalla ULLam" followed, I teared up some more. I don't think any other musicians and their music(at least as far as TFM is concerned) is going to evoke such emotions in me as these two. Two of a kind. To me this tops all tributes which MSV got as well as tops all the awards which MSV didn't get. IR has raised the bar bigtime. He isn't going to get any competition here anytime soon.
The idiots in the media who keep asking IR provocative questions for some cheap sound bytes as well as the haters need to watch this. Hope this clip stays eternally in youtube

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