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Post  crimson king Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:19 am

jaiganesh wrote:

Now lets get back to the question of how supported he was compared to any other player. He scored his first (test) century after 70 innings.
Did any other player receive this support? No. So my point is he was supported by a force inside BCCI greater than anything we have seen.
Without that force he would definitely have been a good player, most probably, but to the status of "Only good batsman of the 90s and noughties" 
I beg to differ. It is our providence that he truly became the genius that he was projected as by this 'force'. For every sachin, there has been countless 
Amarjit Kaypees, Amol Mazumdars, Sridharan Sharaths, Senthilkumars who could have easily made into the BCCI playing 11. Again the irony is, they would have been tossed aside after just one tour.
If we are discussing the Sachin phenomenon - there is a pinch of salt to stoke your reality area in your taste buds.
Rahul Dravid and SC Ganguly and later on Laxman were lucky that there was a match fixing scandal that cleaned up some space for them that got rid of some 
endorsed players like Azhar and Jadeja. Just rewind back to Laxman and Dravid - how many tours they were forced to pad up as openers just because "the middle order" was packed - unchangeable.
Another player we have to remember is that extremely unlucky Praveen Amre who scored century in zimbabwe while other indian players flopped (including manjrekar and tendulkar).
He went on to score one memorable century in the ODIs. He was tossed aside by BCCI inspite of being the best fielder and the best player of pull and hook shots in the bouncy
tracks of South Africa. He settled down in SA after the clubs there recognised his talent. 
Many such tragic stories dot the history of BCCI through 90s and 00s while this idiotic notion of "packed" middle order was being persisted with by BCCI.
I presume you are again referring to ODIs.  For Sachin scored his first Test century in his 14th Test innings. Prior to which he had already scored 4 half centuries.  There is nothing to suggest he was extremely fortunate in Tests, except that they actually selected such a young player for Test cricket which was not and is still not generally a done thing.  This first century was in England.  In the next tour to Aus, his first obviously, he struck two centuries, including at Perth when it was much faster than in 2012 when Kohli compiled a 70 odd there. 

Was Sachin lucky in ODIs?  Probably.  He was lucky that Azhar thought of promoting him to the opening position, after which he was almost an 'overnight success' in ODIs.  Match fixing controversy, Sachin should still have thanked Azhar for moulding his ODI talent and I was certainly disappointed that he didn't.  He doesn't seem to be all that big hearted to those he has decided to make enemies with.  Azhar shaped Sachin and Kumble and both ought to be thankful to him for that, whatever else may be his flaws.  

But none of what you said has any bearing on Sachin the Test player. All the praise flowing from Australian or West Indian former greats is mostly on account of his Test achievements.  So even if Muzumdar or Amre were handed a raw deal by the BCCI, Sachin did not benefit at their expense in Test matches. And it is probably his early brilliance in Test cricket that allowed BCCI to persist with him in ODIs.  That is NOT a bad call at the end of the day.  Sachin opened for the first time in NZ and struck an 82 immediately.  Prior to this ODI series, he averaged 50.57 in Tests and had struck 7 centuries and 10 half centuries.  Yes, he already had an amazing conversion rate.

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Post  plum Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:41 am

The notion that Sachin got undue and unfair chances is laughable. It is a arrow in the dark that Jai has been throwing without anyh proof. 

Yes, the media coverage and fans' adulation might be nauseous but debunking him for that is rather naive...especially lazy theories without any iota of facts. I mean I dont even demand proof but just generalizing "Zim tours were arranged when endorsed players were struggling". The only instance of this I can show is the current WI tour being arranged to shore up Dhoni's captaincy record as his abroad record is dabba dance Ading and a tough SA tour is the last thing N Srini wants now.

Proof kooda vENAm, point a phase where SRT was struggling and a Zim tour was hastily arranged - as opposed to being in the FTP from long back.
I can point to one such instance for Dhoni. You cant for Sachin except puzhudhi vArifying in the dark. That is the difference

SCG had mor einfluence with the board than SRT in terms of getting his wishes done. Did he get his wish to weed Azhar out of the team done - this when they all suspected Azhar of match fixing but without proof. And you cant say SRT has to go out and do a Mammotty in CBI Diary kurippu and nail Azhar with proof.

Ridiculous - peoiple opposing Sachin just because he got a lot of adulation which they think is undeserved

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Post  plum Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:42 am

You can quote Sharath and Kaypee all you want but I suspect anyone watched these fellows as closely as I did. And I can tell you the sheer talent gap was there to see.
Point me a 10 match streak where Sachin did BADLY - as opposed to average which can happen. YOu cant.

You can just shoot arrows in the dark hoping some of the shit will stick on him

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Post  Wizzy Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:56 am

For every sachin, there has been countless 
Amarjit Kaypees, Amol Mazumdars, Sridharan Sharaths, Senthilkumars who could have easily made into the BCCI playing 11
seriously? they don't even belong to the same batting universe as him.


Rahul Dravid and SC Ganguly and later on Laxman were lucky that there was a match fixing scandal that cleaned up some space for them that got rid of some 
endorsed players like Azhar and Jadeja.
again you are mixing up formats, RD/SG were test regulars when the match fixing shit hit the town and AJ was never a regular in test squad.
only VVS got a break as a middle order bat after having a horrid time as opener.

Another player we have to remember is that extremely unlucky Praveen Amre who scored century in zimbabwe while other indian players flopped (including manjrekar and tendulkar).
you mean against Proteas? in the same series Sach got an 100 @ J'burg whilst rest of the bats failed including Amre. so what gives?

He went on to score one memorable century in the ODIs. He was tossed aside by BCCI inspite of being the best fielder and the best player of pull and hook shots in the bouncy
tracks of South Africa. He settled down in SA after the clubs there recognised his talent. 
edhu eppo?? if anything his frailties in odie cricket was the reason he was booted unceremoniously out of the test squad.


Many such tragic stories dot the history of BCCI through 90s and 00s while this idiotic notion of "packed" middle order was being persisted with by BCCI.
we can come up with many ' what if' stories of many cricketers from any eras who had set the domestic/international cricket on fire only to go AWOL. even Kambli's story was also tragic when many at that time thought was more talented than Sach but was ruthlessly exposed by Walsh/

also why are you pinning down frailties of Indian selectors at that time on Sach? its not like Sach got everything on a silver platter, if anything he went through the hard drill possible for any young bat by playing his first 20 odd test matches outside of the home comforts still notching up 100s in Manchester, Sydney, Perth and J'berg as a teenager and worked his way to no.4.


Last edited by Wizzy on Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post  Wizzy Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:06 am

lovely tribute from padosi land the clap 

That uppercut against Shoaib was the moment when the tide turned. When Tendulkar the batsman destroyed the demons that afflicted India in games against Pakistan. With that uppercut, he also knocked out Pakistan for a decade (or more) and made me appreciate the man for the master that he was.

When I saw that shot live, I hated him from the pit of my stomach. To the extent that only upon his retirement did I see highlights of that match and that uppercut again. Of course, I knew I had to see it again as an objective observer, to truly appreciate it, in the context that it was hit.

More broadly, I hated that Tendulkar was Indian and not Pakistani. If he were Australian or West Indian I could have appreciated his genius more objectively, and felt more pleasure watching him bat, than experience the pain of seeing how good he was.

When Brian Lara played, I would satisfy myself by saying that Tendulkar is good, but Lara is better. In my heart of hearts, I knew that to be a lie. Lara himself notes the greatness of Tendulkar. In my mind, at his best, Inzamam and Ponting were more clutch, but again, I knew I was lying to myself. The test was that if I were to choose somebody to bat for my life, it would be Tendulkar.

In an effort to not get completely captivated by the magical batting of Tendulkar, I always referred to him by his surname. I thought that if I called him Sachin, I would somehow be giving in and acknowledging that he, not Inzamam, nor Lara nor Kallis was my favourite batsman.

I never could understand the feeling that I got when Sachin unfurled the flick or the cover drive against Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib or Saqlain. It was mostly a feeling of pain, but always with a tinge of appreciation. I loved it when he top edged Saqlain in Chennai, but hated that he was the man getting out. 

It was a feeling that I can only now, after he has retired, truly acknowledge. I am a fan of Sachin Tendulkar. Always have been and always will be. The sort of fan that gushes when talking about him. Simply, Sachin made the the sport I love better.

He is the best batsman that I have ever seen and likely will ever see. In fact I have reconciled to the idea that his being Indian makes me like India more (at the same time wishing that Sachin was ours, not theirs)

So there it is. My coming out of the closet as a Sachin fan. Cricket will not be the same without him.


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Post  jaiganesh Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:40 am

Agreed - SRT is the greatest ever player.

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Post  Drunkenmunk Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:41 am

Wizzy wrote:lovely tribute from padosi land the clap 

That uppercut against Shoaib was the moment when the tide turned. When Tendulkar the batsman destroyed the demons that afflicted India in games against Pakistan. With that uppercut, he also knocked out Pakistan for a decade (or more) and made me appreciate the man for the master that he was.

When I saw that shot live, I hated him from the pit of my stomach. To the extent that only upon his retirement did I see highlights of that match and that uppercut again. Of course, I knew I had to see it again as an objective observer, to truly appreciate it, in the context that it was hit.

More broadly, I hated that Tendulkar was Indian and not Pakistani. If he were Australian or West Indian I could have appreciated his genius more objectively, and felt more pleasure watching him bat, than experience the pain of seeing how good he was.

When Brian Lara played, I would satisfy myself by saying that Tendulkar is good, but Lara is better. In my heart of hearts, I knew that to be a lie. Lara himself notes the greatness of Tendulkar. In my mind, at his best, Inzamam and Ponting were more clutch, but again, I knew I was lying to myself. The test was that if I were to choose somebody to bat for my life, it would be Tendulkar.

In an effort to not get completely captivated by the magical batting of Tendulkar, I always referred to him by his surname. I thought that if I called him Sachin, I would somehow be giving in and acknowledging that he, not Inzamam, nor Lara nor Kallis was my favourite batsman.

I never could understand the feeling that I got when Sachin unfurled the flick or the cover drive against Wasim, Waqar, Shoaib or Saqlain. It was mostly a feeling of pain, but always with a tinge of appreciation. I loved it when he top edged Saqlain in Chennai, but hated that he was the man getting out. 

It was a feeling that I can only now, after he has retired, truly acknowledge. I am a fan of Sachin Tendulkar. Always have been and always will be. The sort of fan that gushes when talking about him. Simply, Sachin made the the sport I love better.

He is the best batsman that I have ever seen and likely will ever see. In fact I have reconciled to the idea that his being Indian makes me like India more (at the same time wishing that Sachin was ours, not theirs)

So there it is. My coming out of the closet as a Sachin fan. Cricket will not be the same without him.


the clap thumbsup
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Post  jaiganesh Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:10 pm

tendulkar flick shot adippaara enna? adhu azhar areavaache.

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Post  fring151 Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:37 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-25013022

No comments.Neutral

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Post  crimson king Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:19 am

jaiganesh wrote:tendulkar flick shot adippaara enna? adhu azhar areavaache.
Well spotted, more of an on drive.  That's probably the shot he meant.  Even Sachin's leg glance was very proper, he would turn around as he hit it.  Azhar would hit it almost 'blind', he knew his wrists would take the ball where he wanted to.

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Post  crimson king Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:19 am

fring151 wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-25013022

No comments.Neutral
Aye, it's a lucrative business.  First ever temple of cricket and all that.

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Post  Kaaling Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:20 am

jaiganesh wrote:tendulkar flick shot adippaara enna? adhu azhar areavaache.
enna ji posukkunnu ipdi sollittinga. Before the tennis elbow Sachin used to play a superb flick which goes right next to the Square leg umpire for four Very Happy  Pliss to watch the Cape town 169 for reference

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Post  Wizzy Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:32 am

Oz bats unlike their bats of yore should just don't seem comfortable in backfoot may be its time to start playing slow/low wickets.
still losing wickets to Barbie is unpardonable Mad
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Post  Wizzy Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:32 am

major upset this, many would struggle even to remember the last time Oz won a test Laughing 

Mitchell- pace like fiyah applause  not many captains would have played him in the 1st test given his history to choke.
who would have punted on Singam to outbowl Swanny, no wonder Ash rates him so highly.

for all the praise of Eng bats playing attritional cricket, they played shot a many against Mitchell, Root @ 3 might just work given Trott's issues.
expect Eng batters to fill the boots and draw level @ Oval with its new drop-in pitch and also with Mitchell who is just a spell way in back to being a spray gun, in hindsight, Oz should have played the 2nd test @WACA
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Post  Michael AF Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:05 pm

Mitchell jaansann Very Happy. Tendulkar correctly predicted it here. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-2508764/Sachin-Tendulkar-says-Mitchell-Johnson-prove-Ashes-menace-England.html
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Post  plum Sun Nov 24, 2013 1:30 pm

Jai - nAn vidaRadhA illa. indha sarcasm ellAm vittuttu "thappA sollittEn, vishayam theriyAma sollitten" nu imposition ezhudhi kodunga illaina we will continue to categorically disembowel, disprove and decapitate your claims

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Post  jaiganesh Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:48 pm

ennai usuppaethi vittaa unga 'artist/actor' tendulkar image dhaan damage aavum. paathikirunga..

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Post  baroque Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:37 am

http://www.thehindu.com/features/magazine/beyond-the-boundary/article5382910.ece


People are excited about  the article by T.M.Krishna!  They are smitten by his poetic post! Smile
I am  posting the article link only.
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Post  plum Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:28 am

adhellAm oNYum AvAdhu. vENumnA that marathi middle class mentality of maximising money making opps can be ridiculed. Cricketing mattersla pappu vEgAdhu

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Post  Wizzy Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:21 am

after buying into Kohls hype via Jennings/Kirsten, Proteas are finally seeing the light. 

with all these tales of rib ticklers, he may end up like Gangs v2.0  Smile 

http://www.wisdenindia.com/cricket-article/kohli-test-fire/89549

Virat Kohli arrived in South Africa with one of the finest reputations and records in the history of ODI cricket. Could he reaffirm both against fast bowling on South African pitches? It was not only a legitimate question, it was also a widely asked question. It may have been only one pull shot which he missed, but that’s the nature of batting, right? It only takes one ball.

Kohli was dismissed in tame fashion in both innings he played, softly guiding catches to the ‘keeper and slip. It may have been both glib and parochial of Supersport to suggest he had been ‘softened up’, but they didn’t invent or create the footage. It happened. Only the hyper-sensitive could have a problem with it being replayed, surely? Apparently the Indian party contains some hyper-sensitive souls.

Supersport’s director was summoned to the Indian changing room during the innings interval and an explanation demanded. His argument for ‘editorial relevance’ was countered with angry accusations of ‘inappropriate behaviour’, disrespect, and a suggestion that he ‘sticks to the cricket’ in future. His observation that batsmen being hit in the ribs was, in fact, part of the cricket was not well received. Batting was not just about fours and sixes, he said.

This firm and frank exchange of views was the best thing that could possibly have happened for India’s reputation. It was proof that they did, in fact, care. Whether the concern was for the results or for a very fine player’s reputation remains unclear. But at least they are caring about something.



There is absolutely no question about Kohli’s courage. He wasn’t around for very long after that rib tickler from Steyn but he showed no sign of flinching let alone backing away in its aftermath. But he needs to score runs in the Test series, that’s all that matters. There will be no point in defending his honour, pride and dignity unless he proves he’s worth it.

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Post  crimson king Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:31 am

Maybe basis their performances in India, the Proteans had thought they would do very well like Tendulkar or Dravid, both of whom got centuries on their first trip to SA.  They were not very convincing in the ODI series and they didn't even 'get' to see much of Philander.  Steyn has already smelt blood and is going to bully them by the looks of it.

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Post  plum Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:57 pm

I think Kohli will manage well. He is like Ricky. Slightest fall in difficulty level for one session and he will cash in. Say, Steyn takes rest for a session or is slightly below his standard, Kohls is smart enough to cash in.

Shikar Dhawan might also fluke atleast one innings of hitting

Dhoni will definitely have one innings of cashing in after the revious batsman collase in 40 overs. Until new ball comes in, the intensity will be less and Dhoni will cash in

Vijays last test match will be layed in this tour.

Che - should succeed but he failed last time.

Rogith  - best layer of short ball in this team IMO but flaky mind means not good times for him

I will watch Jaddu with interest. His armballs can take wickets. 

Totally, India might not do as bad as we imagine

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Post  plum Sun Dec 15, 2013 6:57 pm

Even Lanka beat SA in one test in SA. We can do it

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Post  crimson king Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:03 pm

They basically need to cut out all ODI/T20 shots during the series.  This is a little more subtle than just the slogs over cow corner which are easier to avoid.  I find all those batsmen you mentioned, except Pujara, wont to open the face of the bat at the last minute.  Which is fine when they play late but they often do it off the front foot, leaning into the delivery!!  That is a high risk ODI shot at best (and cost Kohli and Rohit their wickets during the ODI series) and def a no no in Tests.  I don't know if they can make the transition to Test match batting with the wonderful itinerary where the one warm up game has been washed out.  Dhawan plays a lot square of the wicket off the front foot.  Again, an approach that may not work well in SA.  Either he needs to play horizontal bat shots off the backfoot or play straight on the front foot.  SA is the final frontier for India (though they have also not won a series in Aus).  This is where their batsmen are least comfortable.  If they can just fight it out and notch up 200, they will still give the bowlers a chance.  Overall, Kohli and RS have the best chance in SA.  Pujara has a good home record but didn't do well last time and I personally feel his movements are a bit slow for these conditions.  Temperamentally he is the best suited for Test cricket, though, and if he can adapt to the conditions, he should make a big one.

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Post  plum Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:14 pm

I think for Dhoni luck is a huge factor. this year has been lucky for him I think thats going to continue.
India will win or draw this series.

SA batting is rone to unexected collase. Fast bowling can go haywire some times, and give the advantage away.

If anyone is lucky enough to benefit from it, it is Dhoni the catain and Dhoni the batsman.

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