Let's talk song-structuring

Sure Vinatha. Waiting to hear your valuable inputs on these two gems.

Meanwhile the last song for today, which takes twists and turns at every possible opportunity. Here is the masterpieceboth aurally and visually; yElamala kaattukkuLLa (NadOdi Thendral). The starting guitar phrase gives lead to flute sonata. This piece is in the soundtrack too. Classical so far (denoting good times when the lady is happy). Then takes a wild twist to gypsy beats and dance (denoting festival) which no one can even think of what's going to be next. Malaysia aNNan pitches in with heart full of love and pain. Then comes in the tribal pipe organs in the form of first interlude (denoting something not usual) followed by the soulful charanam. Till this time, we have a pallavi-interlude-charanam-pallavi. Observe the second interlude with trumpets. Then the accident happens when the English lady misunderstands that Karthik loves her. The beat is still on when the conversation is happening with progressively instruments add up (flute steals the show there). When Ranjitha sees them together, she misunderstands that Karthik loves that girl (The music during this whole conversation is not in the soundtrack). The song takes a wild turn with faster rhythm in 2nd charanam denoting that her mind is in turmoil. When the pallavi is repeated the last time, the tempo is way faster than when it started. The song ends with a big clap. Very few songs which tells a story without dialogues as music takes over from dialogues. Time for big applause   for conceiving such a difficult song wholly drenched in emotions (from various angles; Pandian, Ranjitha, English Lady, Karthik, people) in one shot by Maestro.



The song drenched in nativity. There is high pitch singing, but not shouting. He could have chosen the western route (for tuning and singing), but imagine the impact it would have created, nill. Instead what we got now, is full of soul.

Sorry if I missed any mentions of it, but Ellorukkum Nalla Kaalam Undu from Marupadiyum.  Only a pallavi but with prelude and interlude.

fring151 wrote:
Woah woah. How's that for free-flowing? SPB solra mAdhiri rAkshasan dhAn ivar. First time hearing too. Bet I missed a lot of subtle details, but the method even in the madness that is free-flow struck me even on a cursory listening. Bet the situation warranted it too.

I am upload it   What a song really! Uploaded mainly for the electro elements in the orch which he was experimenting widely with in 87-89. And yeah, no structure. Heroine is a classical/folk singer, hero is a disco/rock star. They have a contest on stage which is this song as it alternates between their styles. So the free flow has a cause again

V_S wrote:Thanks App ji. I initially mentioned that song, and for no reason removed it. Here is another one which has two songs in one song. Complete paradigm shift during the interlude. Usha ji's favorite. AlaigalE vaa avarudan vaa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTa9zEenWlU

DM,

Thanks for the pick........ per theriyadha oru padam.. release agalai....  indha padathuku ipadi oru paatu. Angae irukar indha IR...

Idhu dhanae Symphony............... padam patri kavalai padamal....... Than katru kondadhai  share seigirarae.. Angae irukar indha IR.............

panam parthu isai varadhu Rajavirku............. Isai.. Isaikaga varum.. adhu dhan avar Special............

Sure.. ennoda favourite dhan idhu.............   Soga padal.. IR.. kaeka maten dhan.. anal.. indha paatin Orchestra..
kaeka vaikum ennai eppodhum...........  

Singing Style.. adha gavaninga .. adhu romba mukkiyam.. Especially SPB.............. enna oru yetram, irakam.. ovvoru vaarthaiyilum........... Really Great ONe.........

indha paatai.. TFM page il dhan therindhu konden.. apodhu kaetka vazhi ilaii.....  IR  songs kaetka kashta pattu,
andha paatu kidaithu kaetpadhum. adhu oru thani sugam dhan....................... DM............ Thank u Once again
for the RARE GEM..................

DM.

Alaigalae vaa - kaetadhum. manadhil vandha 2 paadalgal..

1. Putril vaazh aravam anjen - Enna oru Notes......... Enna oru composition....... Rhymes madhirii irukadhu RAJA vin compositiion.......... alaral iruakadhu.......... Ellavatrilum oru Nayam irukum...........

VS,
innoru raga maliga of Raja...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ybaAjdKa5s

Nilave nee vara vendum ........ enna oru Stylish compositiion.............

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dL8Xmxh0Ubk

Thanks Usha ji. I uploaded Vaa Veliye I am also hearing Alaigale Vaa first time only today.

oh........ kaetadhu ilaiya idhuvarai..... kelunga.. pl........... SPB's Rendition....... Oru Instrument oda Notes style il
irukum.............


vaa veliyae.. kaekaren DM..... Thanks for the uploading........

song structuring - this is not a rigid thing as ARR tards make it out to be.
From our great natakeeya/natya sangeeth tradition, songs have been woven into
narrative in so many imaginative and creative fashions. Take Kayadha kaanagathe
from valli kalyanam - it is very innovative with a long pallavi anu pallavi and shorter charanams.
This is so unlike the keerthanai formats. Sameway Gopalakrishna bharathiyar's nandhanar sarithram
 had so many short songs and thukkadas. Madurai veeran kadhai had a poatti (competition song)
in the old one and in the new movie with MGR NSK and TMS sang the dialogue interridden
 conversation song. Even Ragamalika is not a new thing- a given thing in our carnatic and natya sangeeth traditions.
For heaven's sake we even had thillana which had only swaras and jadhis with no lyrics.
The illusion of rule being broken by Rahman which is being hyped up all over by lazy listeners
is all to sickening. Raja to his credit has not reengineered or unnecessarily pretended to break any set rule, for our
natya sangeet tradition which has heavily influenced our film music sphere has been flexible, diverse with
all formats to suit the on screen narrative.
He has used all the natya sangeeth articles in intelligent and aesthetic manner with a supreme creative vision
that is so individual and unique. Rahman and his coterie of liars have very limited knowledge on these areas and frankly, without sufiana music
to save him would have been caught with his bag of lies long time ago. Now thanks to a hype ruled generation that venerates
 success and celebrity worship madly, anyone can get away with anything.

How about the  Vaanengum thange vin meengal....from Moondram Pirai!
Ilayaraja is super cool!  




The compositions you mentioned are from Uliyin Osai, V_S!    Excellent!

But I appreciate some of our superficial trendy junta in Audio/video stores, if it is not for them, I may not  find or afford  to buy  Ilayaraja's Moondram Pirai-CD and Flute Malli's 2- cds pack  on a same day in bargain price!    You are all out there.... thank you!

baroque wrote:How about the  Vaanengum thange vin meengal....from Moondram Pirai!
Ilayaraja is super cool!  




The compositions you mentioned are from Uliyin Osai, V_S!    Excellent!

But I appreciate our superficial trendy junta, if it is not for them, I may not  find or afford  to buy  Ilayaraja's Moondram Pirai-CD and Flute Malli's 2- cds pack  on a same day in bargain price!    You are all out there.... thank you!

Vaan engum indeed!! How about that scat singing in lieu of the instrumental interlude? And it is not "just some filler" thing either. The heavy bass accompaniment, the insane time signature changes...And how is that for an unusual, abrupt ending to a song? (The above video doesn't have the 2nd charanam and ending, so listen to this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nw-y3OLfWTg) to see how he puts a sudden, unexpected end to proceedings as opposed to the standard fading away technique or preparing a resolution on the tonic chord. Having seen the movie, here again this choice evidently seems to have been dictated by the situation (not the scat singing, but the end to the song)

Drunkenmunk wrote:

fring151 wrote:
Woah woah. How's that for free-flowing? SPB solra mAdhiri rAkshasan dhAn ivar. First time hearing too. Bet I missed a lot of subtle details, but the method even in the madness that is free-flow struck me even on a cursory listening. Bet the situation warranted it too.

I am upload it   What a song really! Uploaded mainly for the electro elements in the orch which he was experimenting widely with in 87-89. And yeah, no structure. Heroine is a classical/folk singer, hero is a disco/rock star. They have a contest on stage which is this song as it alternates between their styles. So the free flow has a cause again

Um naRpaNi thodarattum  

I simply melt in waltz charanams, Very romantic!

engengu nee sendra podhum.....

Folks, very good discussion...   keep 'em coming! Thanks.

This might not qualify exactly in this thread but this also revolves around structuring the tune, so will post it here:

Thanks to munk's blog, I was again listening to DilwaalE raath hai jawaan. The awesomeness of the song most of us already know (and was also discussed recently some pages back on one of the threads here). Raaja again uses Mohanam as the base scale and it left me wondering if his brain can ever run out of making permutations & combinations with the notes in this scale! In this song, the pallavi operates within Mohanam fully. In the charanams though, Raaja again pulls off a little trick which I happened to notice only yesterday. The shift is really quite easy to overlook given the lovely flow of the song (especially with all that dazzling chord work!). Notice from the point where the charanam starts (lines starting zulfEn mEri) until the line that goes 'aaja zaraa daloon'. In these lines he actually shifts scale changing the Ga to Ma (prathi/M2) making it S R2 M2 P D2 S / S D2 P M2 R2 S. And to me it appears like he hasn't simply introduced an anya swaram in Mohanam because he clearly omits Ga in these lines. I then tried to isolate these 4 lines alone and kept repeating them in my head (oh, to me it was a challenge leaving out Mohanam behind!) and I kinda ran into sorgamE endralum and isaiyil thodangudhamma that are generally classified as hamsanAdham/sarangatharangini, but the difference here is the Ni that appears in these two rAgams. I then googled S R2 M2 P D2 S / S D2 P M2 R2 S where I learned that this is a scale called Vandhana dhArini (KalyAni's janyam). And no, I'm making no claims that Raaja might have used a rare rAgam here. We're just talking scales here and not rAgam, and this shift, for all we know, could perhaps be the result of him simply playing around with the notes in the scale. But personally, to me little things like these spice up songs, adding that extra dash of flavour. And going back to the charanam, the way he brings back the scale to Mohanam is so lovely. It's so subtle and seamless, like as though nothing ever happened! Also notice how the chords change when he does the shift, with that extra dose of bass... ah!   

Dilwaale raath:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fltlN87GaiY

Add-on:
A composition of GNB in Vandana Dharini:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkuFVFrfFrE

Excellent kv   graha bEdham and Raaja. idha vechu oru thesis'E seyyalAm  

Justu one small, tangential clarification. You are very right in saying HamsanAdham/SArangatharangiNi have the Ni which is absent in Vandana DhAriNi. But HamsanAdham and SArangatharangiNi differ in that, SArangathangiNi has Dha which HamsanAdham doesn't. That way, having Dha disqualifies Vandhana DhAriNi from HamsanAdham. It is the absence of Ni that differentiates Vandhana DhAriNi from SArangatharangiNi. SorgamE EndrAlum hence ends up as SArangatharangiNi. So does Thendral Vandhu Ennai Thodum and MinnAram MAnathu. Raaja's only HamsanAdham iirc is the superb Om NamahA Adhara Jathulakku. Would say SArangatharangiNi is closer to Vandhana DhAriNi since they are both janyams of Kalyani and HamsanAdham happens to be a janyam of Neethimathi. But what virtuosity from Raaja in Dilwaale here!!! Too good for Bollywood even today and quite aptly went over their heads.

Talking more on song structuring, not willing to restrict this to a free flowing song without the pallavi/interludes/charanam, I feel we can slightly expand the vocabulary to variations even within the pallavi/interlude/charanam formats. Pallavi/anupallavi/interlude/charanam is one pretty traditional concept. But getting the strains and notes of the pallavi in the charanam is something Raaja has experimented with. We know the story behind Lalita Priya Kamalam/Idhazhil Kadhai Ezhudhum. The raga Lalita (Misra Lalit in Hindustani) was chosen and KB named his heroine after that. Hero'voda musical family/musicality'kum heroine'kum connection'a musicalA solliruppAr Raaja. Coming to the point, the raga lacks the Pa in Sa Ri Ga Ma Pa Dha Ni. Sa and Pa are chromatically the most stable notes in Carnatic music and offer the best points to pause a musical phrase or a musical line in lay terms. Without Pa and only Sa to stop the musical phrases, it becomes a challenge for the composer to make the song interesting because by repeatedly pausing on the same note, the song can become boring. Hence in this song, we see Raaja going for a number of lengthy, breathless phrases. It becomes a very interesting composition here. But in the charanam, he takes it to Valachina aamani koorimi neeriga cherina tharunamu. We expect the pallavi in that musical pause at tharunamu. Because the pallavi had the exactly same tune at Kalimiki dhorakani chelimini kurisina arudhagu varamidi and it goes to Lalita Priya Kamalam there. But wait, making us expect the pallavi (rightly so because we've only heard the pallavi the first time and the charanam borrows the pallavi's last musical phrase, blurring the lines briefly between pallavi and charanam; Raaja the Raakshasan is right), he takes a detour at Koti thalapula chivurulu thodigenu and introduces more short, fast and breathless phrases that increase the musical tension and brings it to a knife's edge at Vela madhumaasamula poola dhahaasamula and takes us to the pallavi. Has any pallavi/interlude/charanam had such an unpredictable structuring? Even the greatest musical genius in the world would not have been able to predict that detour in the charanam in the first listen. What a lesson in the complex structuring of a song retaining the beauty and interest. Raaja, thou art deadly    

Lalita Priya Kamalam:

Uploaded En Jodi Manja Kuruvi because of the travesty of a lack of a quality audio in youtube for this cultest of cult songs. What a song! And again, the bloody structuring is unorthodox. A prelude with gibberish followed by a pallavi, rousing interlude, charanam, pallavi. So far so good. A folk detour that is a geyser of joy!   which pretty much stands on its own as a separate stanza leading back to the pallavi seamlessly. The tune to pallavi, interlude, charanam has that razor sharp tension despite the overriding joy. THIS stanza is just Raajajoy unleashed on us no holds barred. The pallavi is followed by a lengthy interlude with only percussion instruments and leads back to the pallavi. This song begins traditionally in the pallavi/interlude/charanam/pallavi format. But then changes track to a quasi charanam with a different tune. There is no interlude between the first and second quasi charanam but there is an interlude between the pallavis after the second charanam. Wowza Raaja! And in the middle of all this inventiveness, he nails the middle Eastern/Islamic flavor of the Kingdom in the pallavi/interlude/charanam despite using our very own Nadhaswaram in the interlude and the Tamil folk is just let out as a geyser in whatever magic that follows.

Audio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q0nqJvG2uQ

Did the picturization demand such a composition? It sure did. Watch off:

DM,
  Great Write up.........  paatin Greatness.. ungal ezhuthil........ Really Amazing.............. like a lot. pl continue ur service.......

KV,
   
  IR's song's Ragam.. Mapping panradhu  romba periya skilll.. You have it.......... Great..........
Pl share your valuables.......

drunkenmunk wrote:Sa and Pa are chromatically the most stable notes in Carnatic music and offer the best points to pause a musical phrase or a musical line in lay terms.

As they are in western music.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_(music)

drunkenmunk wrote:Hence in this song, we see Raaja going for a number of lengthy, breathless phrases. It becomes a very interesting composition here. But in the charanam, he takes it to Valachina aamani koorimi neeriga cherina tharunamu. We expect the pallavi in that musical pause at tharunamu. Because the pallavi had the exactly same tune at Kalimiki dhorakani chelimini kurisina arudhagu varamidi and it goes to Lalita Priya Kamalam there. But wait, making us expect the pallavi (rightly so because we've only heard the pallavi the first time and the charanam borrows the pallavi's last musical phrase, blurring the lines briefly between pallavi and charanam; Raaja the Raakshasan is right), he takes a detour at Koti thalapula chivurulu thodigenu and introduces more short, fast and breathless phrases that increase the musical tension and brings it to a knife's edge at Vela madhumaasamula poola dhahaasamula and takes us to the pallavi.

  

KV, Have heard the Dilwale song only once, so that went straight over my head 

Fring, Usha Ji, Reminded of a friend who once said composing a song without Panchamam (Pa) is like constructing a suspension bridge without pillars. It requires fantastic structural design for it to not collapse. Composing a song without Pa even in the traditional format requires great structuring. And to experiment on top of this with the pallavi/charanam format like Lalita Priya Kamalam is like holding a saucer on your nose while doing a tight rope walk and actually pulling it off.

This reminds me of another song I've written about previously. If it reads redundant, pardon me. Composing with only 1 raga without Pa and experimenting with the pallavi/charanam structure in films is beyond the realms of even the most talented composers. But Raaja takes 5 raagas, yes 5, all without Pa and experiments with the pallavi/charanam format; in that there is a prelude with vocals starting off (no instruments, a variant of the usual prelude), pallavi, first interlude, charanam, pallavi <end right there>! It is essentially half a song going by traditional definitions but it feels like a gale hitting us out of the park in under 4 minutes. The song is Naada Vinodamu/Naadha VinodhangaL from Sagara Sangamam/Salangai Oli. The ragas used from the pallavi (will come to prelude later) are Sriranjani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shree_ranjani), Hamsanandi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamsanandi), Vasantha (http://sangeethabhyas.com/RagamDetails.php?Name=Vasanthaa) and our Lalita (http://www.ragasurabhi.com/carnatic-music/raga/raga--lalitha.html). Hamsanandhi is the janyam of the 53rd Melakarta raga and Vasantha of the 17th Melakarta and Shudha madhyama raga. 53rd Melakarta raga is the 17th prati madhyama raga, which means Hamsanandhi and Vasantha differ only in their Madhyamams (ma). The ragas are hence very closely related in their swaras (as we can see from their links). The stitch is unbelievable genius imho.

Does this have a reason? Possibly. The prelude has a verse from Raghuvamsam of Kalidasa (Vaakarthapi Vasa prukthau) which ends thus: "jagadhaf pitharau, vandE pArvathi paramEshwarau." The line is repeated and the 2nd time, it ends thus: "Parvathi pa RamEshwarau." Parvathi ParamEshwarau is Parvathy and Shiva. Parvathy Pa is Parvathy's Pathi (Shiva) and RamEshwarau is Rama's Eshwarau, which is Lakshmi's consort, Vishnu. The poet gives his respects to both Gods with his excellent wordplay which K Vishwanath and Raaja have used here. The dancer, Kamal Hassan, on cue gives the Ananthasayanar's pose for "Pa RamEshwarau" So the entire message in Sanskrit there is hidden due to the play with the letter Pa. What raga does he use for the prelude? Ragavardhini, which you guessed right, also lacks Pa So Raaja goes ahead and composes this entire song without the swara Pa. Coincidence? I don't think so. I feel Raaja plays these games and pushes himself. The beauty here is, he does the whole thing in a few minutes very spontaneously, like it just has to flow out instantly and was simply just waiting for a push over a cliff, which was Kalidasa, to soar ahead and fly, charting his own territory over that Raghuvamsa "push". He uses 5 ragas here. And Pa is the 5th swara in the saptha swaras, which he does not use. The entire song has invocations to Shiva. How many heads does Shiva have? Yes, 5!

And the entire structure in that only charanam is something else. Came across a Plum post from the old forum which does the honors quite well:

Plum wrote: About the song itself, what majestic, complicated phrases in succession below:

navarasa naTanam (swaram) jatiyuta gamanam - set the pace with a trot

sitagiri chalanam suranadi payanam - go low here decrease pace

bharatamaina naaTyam - Maintain tempo, wait for the kill

bratuku nitya nRutyam - Start Pouncing

bharatamaina naaTyam bratuku nitya nRutyam -
tapamuni kiraNam taamasa haraNam - Pounce!

tapamuni kiraNam taamasa haraNam - Rip!
Sivuni nayana trayalaaSyam - Kill!

And right here: WARNING: DANGEROUS CURVE AHEAD!

dhirana dhirananana takiTa takiTatadhimi
dhirana dhirananana naatyam dhirana dhirananana takiTa takiTatadhimi

Source: http://www.mayyam.com/talk/showthread.php?8541-The-Golden-Era-of-Dr-IR-and-Dr-SPB/page169

This song is a peak in creativity, complexity, structuring, orchestrating and servicing the situation at hand (because the dancer is a free flowing soul while dancing, only a free flowing composition like this will do justice) and on top of all this, letting your genius soar. What a man!

Song:

DM,
Fantastic!

Thrilled to read your posts on manjakkuruvi & nAdha vinOdhangaL! pinnuReenga!



You're in top form, adichchu viLaiyAdunga

Thanks app ji. I made a little mistake. Ragavardhini has Pa. Prelude is a different raga, unable to grasp it now  but indha song la 5 ragas, 5'layum Pa lEdhu. adhAn mEttar

Usha wrote:KV,
   
  IR's song's Ragam.. Mapping panradhu  romba periya skilll.. You have it.......... Great..........
Pl share your valuables.......

+1 Usha ji spoke my mind.

Excellent posts DM and KV Please continue to enlighten us.

Someone please explore 'varam thandha sAmikku' number in the light of this thread

There's pallavi-interlude-saraNam structure but both saraNams follow different notes per my observation

In other words, the melody for
கல்யாணராமனுக்குக்  கௌசல்யை நானே <> (or !=) ஆனந்தக்கண்ணனுக்கு ஆழ்வாரும் நானே !

Likewise other lines of 1st and 2nd saraNam also..."don't compare"

One more song to consider is sangeedha jaadhi mullai from kaadhal oviyam. 
Its structure is so contextual that what starts as a keerthanai becomes a love ballad and ends like a dance ballet
at crescendo.

app_engine wrote:Someone please explore 'varam thandha sAmikku' number in the light of this thread

There's pallavi-interlude-saraNam structure but both saraNams follow different notes per my observation

In other words, the melody for
கல்யாணராமனுக்குக்  கௌசல்யை நானே <> (or !=) ஆனந்தக்கண்ணனுக்கு ஆழ்வாரும் நானே !

Likewise other lines of 1st and 2nd saraNam also..."don't compare"

Brilliant find App ji. Yes, both the charanam are not same.