Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

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Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  ravinat on Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:30 pm

There are several occasions when I hear a Raja song on my drive to work, I notice something unusual. A lot of questions arise and quickly disappears as it does not fall under any particular pattern of orchestration as I see it. However, that fleeting observation never gets recorded. I keep searching for some patterns and end up looking for something else. Once, when a blog reader asked me to write a post on 'fugue', I was in the midst of a series of articles on some other concept. On a tired evening drive from work, my stereo started playing 'Manjal Veyyil' from Nandu. In a fleeting moment, I could see what the Maestro was doing. I got home and played the song 10 times over to confirm, if it was indeed fugue and I was convinced it was it!

I am sure, we all have our fleeting moments of observations that do not go anywhere, unlike what I described. I thought it will be great to chat about such observations, which do not necessarily fall under any such known pattern. Maybe, something will come out of this discussion.


Last edited by ravinat on Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:26 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  ravinat on Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:33 pm

Yesterday, I heard the song 'Isai Medaiyil' from Ilamai Kalangal on my way back from work. What struck me was the rhythm pattern that Raja uses in the charanam. Try hearing the rhythm pattern alone - it is plain irritating. However, when you hear the melody that is riding over it, it is all fine. What is he exactly trying to drive home?

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  ravinat on Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:33 pm

Another song whose rhythm always intrigued me is 'Kannale Kadhal Kavidhai SonnaLe' from Athma. If you observe the rhythm arrangement of the charanam, the rhythm pattern towards the end of the charanam is different from the rest of the arrangement in the charanam. It strikes me that the last bits of the charanam is a rush to accommodate the rhythm within the time signature that the composer has chosen. In other words, the last few beats are more rushed than the rest of the rhythm. I always thought there was something that Raja was trying to drive home by way of technique. I have still not got what he was trying to do. Insights?


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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  V_S on Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:04 pm

Great thread Ravi with nice set of post with great observations. I will listen to them again and let you know. One thing that stuck me in some songs of Raja which he employs to tease us is he uses a specific/unique sound only once in the whole song. I will long for that sound/phrase again, but he will leave me longing for ever. Couple of examples out of my head, will recollect more as I come across again. 1. There will be unique sound in pallavi I think in enthan nenjil neengaathan, some sort of 'brushed-up' sound. In mudhi mudhi and many songs, he uses that slap bass/pizzicato only once in the entire song. I don't remember exactly, but I am clueless why he does that?

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  ravinat on Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:31 pm

Coming back to Isai Mediayil, the rhythm strikes me as a 'march' type rhythm. The song is set to Dharbari Kaanada (according to Vel's database). Is this some experiment in marrying march rhythm with Carnatic idiom?

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  Usha on Tue Jun 11, 2013 8:25 pm

Ravinat,
Hearty welcome.. indha thread ungaludhu dhan... kanama pogama..idhae madhiri sollindae irungo. padichu
therinjukaren.........

Beats.. IR.. neraiya irukae ungalin aaraychiku.............. am enjoying. pl contine ur Service Ravinat........

some songs.. nalla highway la free a , comfort a pora mahdiiri poindu irukum podhu, speed breaker mahdiri.. break varum..
adhu enna idea raja ku.. idhu thonum enaku....

1.kadhal kavidhaigal padithidum neram.. 2nd stanza interludes. starting portion..


2. valaiyosai kala kala - 2nd stanza.. Latha;s humming....

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  fring151 on Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:58 am

Very interesting topic. Often you know there is some interesting experiment or concept but are not quite able to put a finger to it. I will ponder over it and try to recollect some such examples which strike me as fascinating before sharing my thoughts.
One thing that stuck me in some songs of Raja which he employs to tease us is he uses a specific/unique sound only once in the whole song. I will long for that sound/phrase again, but he will leave me longing for ever.
Exactly how I feel about certain songs. It is a game he likes to play.

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  mythila on Sat Jun 15, 2013 7:43 pm

ravinat, I have actually felt the same way about the beats in the melody oozing "pAda vandhadO gaanam" . IWhen I tried listening only to the rythm, it was head ache inducing. I even termed it as "sledge hammer" beats when I wrote my experience of this song in tfmpage IR Forum

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  jaiganesh on Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:50 pm

awesome.. there is something peculiar abt adukku malli song from aavaaramboo - will write on it in a while.. placing my thoughts together.

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  ravinat on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:44 am

There are several Raja songs, where the initial half of the song - (Pallavi +Il1+Charanam1+Pallavi) is very sober and peaceful. Things go wild with the second interlude and sometimes with the second charanam too. There are several examples to this strange Raja phenomenon. However, I am going to highlight two Malayalam songs (maybe, this can be referenced back when we get to these songs in more detail in the Malayalam thread).

1. Ponnavani Poomuthe - Man Of The Match - This is a song sang by MGS and it is so peaceful for the first half and the synth, guitars and works go on a wild spree in interlude 2. In this song, the second charanam is also set to a western rhythm arrangement and things return to the peaceful tune with the final pallavi.



2. Thazhvaram Manpoove - Jackpot - Yesudas/Chitra  - This is even more deceiving. It has all the elements I described, but the 2nd charanam is with the tabla rhythm and is arranged very similar to the first charanam.  The clever part of the arrangement is the charanam bridge that Raja uses - despite all the fast paced Western style orchestration, he uses a series of simple violin strokes as bridge to the second charanam.



I call this whole thing as transition management - how an orchestrator arranges the transition between the interlude and the charanam. Raja is a master of this. This is one such technique in his toolkit.

Transition management is also about how one transitions from a charanam back to the pallavi. A number of folks have described in detail about how he manages the melody so that everything falls into place very rapidly. For instance, the song, Kajuraho Kanavile from Oru Naal Oru Kanavu, the final transition is done from the charanam to the pallavi by just 4 words taking the singers from the highest pitch back to the pallavi.



This is very common in Raja's work throughout his career,  but the unusual type of arrangement, illustrated in this post is a typical Rajaism!

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  ravinat on Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:42 am

I have never written about just a song's pallavi. However, I decided to make a deviation. There is one song of Raja that has intrigued me for its arrangement for a very long time. I could not put a finger and tell what he was doing, but always had an awe whenever I heard this song. Also, I will be tense about one thing in this pallavi that has never bothered me with Raja's other pallavis. Like all songs, this song also has the pallavi repeated thrice. Will this time around, the composer be able to accommodate the intervening instrumentation? Will he have enough space/time to do what he did in the first time in the pallavi?

I was searching for this song for a while and somehow it kept slipping from my memory though the pattern registered clearly in me. I think I figured out what he was trying to do. Maybe, my theory is premature. I wrote things down to ensure that my reasoning makes sense.

The song is Sorgathin Vasapadi from another non-descript film Unnai Solli Kutramillai. from 1990.



Please ignore the video and the gymnastics. We will focus on Raja's game. Like most songs, the pallavi has 12 bars. Here is what Raja has tried to do, in my view, with these 12 bars.

Bar 1 - Sorgathin Vasapadi
Guitar interlude - half bar
Bar 2 - Enna Kanavugalil
Flute Interlude - half bar
Bar 3 - Sorgathin Vasapadi
Guitar interlude - half bar
Bar 4 - Enna Kanavugalil
Flute Interlude - half bar
Bar 5 - Pennalla Nee Enakku
Synth Interlude - half bar
Bar 6 - Vanna KaLangiyame
Synth Interlude - half bar
Bar 7 - Chinna Malarkodiye
Violin interlude - half bar
Bar 8 - Nenjil Sindhum PanithuLiye
Violin interlude - half bar
Bar 9 - Sorgathin Vasapadi (female)
Guitar interlude - half bar
Bar 10 - Enna Kanavugalil (female)
Flute Interlude - half bar
Bar 11 - Sorgathin Vasapadi (female)
Guitar interlude - half bar
Bar 12 - Enna Kanavugalil (female)
Flute Interlude - half bar

He has pushed the pallavi to 18 bars without anybody realizing it!  Every time, the pallavi repeats, he will switch male to female, but the parts are delivered exactly every time - 18 bars, no compromise even once. Not sure, what drove the math when he wrote this. I have also not heard a song constructed this way by Raja. There are several songs where the pallavi has interludes - not 12. If you know any, let me know. Bloody genius, as Aakarsh would say it!

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  ravinat on Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:38 pm

I was hearing this song, 'Gangai aatril' from Aayiram Nilave Vaa sang by PS.

The usual Raja 80s violins did not surprise me. What surprised me was the second interlude where two guitars play two melodies at the same time:



Hear the clip between 2:49 and 3:03. To me, this sounds like an invertible counterpoint. This is very similar in technique to the 'Poonthalir Aada' second interlude from Paneer Pushpangal. You can also describe that as a chromatic guitar passage very similar to the last pallavi of 'Oh Butterfly' where these passages are played between the flute and the violins.

Any further insight?

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  V_S on Tue Jun 25, 2013 5:42 am

Wow! That was fantastic observation. Not a very clear invertible counterpoint, but definitely as we listen again and again, it sounds like it. Some times it sounds like they are two different melodies (so a counterpoint for sure), some times it sounds like two same melodies played at a different times (invertible counterpoint).  I always use this as reference for understanding and observing invertible counterpoint. 

http://www.teoria.com/reference/i/invertible-counterpoint.php

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  Sakalakala Vallavar on Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:54 pm

Not sure if this is right thread, I have a doubt in அள்ளித்தந்த பூமி அன்னை அல்லவா 

https://soundcloud.com/raja4ever/very-hires-allithandhabhoomi



ஆடும்நாள் பாடும்நாள் தாளங்கள் & இனி ஆனந்தம் ஆரம்பம் வாருங்கள்

The gap btw this 2 lines in Pallavi is my doubt. This is sung totally 4 times, 1st time and in the end. Not in btw the charanams. 

1stTime Ok, Other 3Times the gap btw seems wrong. Experts Plis to Clarify. Is this a mistake or done intentionally? What it cud be? Why, the other 3 times, a little extra gap?

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  ravinat on Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:54 pm

SKV

  I do not see any difference between the three times those lines are repeated. What am I missing?

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  fring151 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:11 am

This seems to me like a short set of variations on two central themes. What strikes me as unusual and almost confusing in this is how the counter-melodies in each section are quite similar, but the orchestration and instrumentation give a totally different flavour each time they are repeated. In particular, pay attention to these sections: 1) 0:00 to 0:17  2) 0:37 to 0:37 to 0:54 and 3) 1:40 to 1:57. The clever instrumentation and dynamics make each of these sections sound very different, yet they are melodically virtually identical! Also, any idea of what instrument plays the counter-melody in the 0:00-0:17 section? Cello in pizzicato? Harp?


 

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  Drunkenmunk on Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:38 am

fring151 wrote:Also, any idea of what instrument plays the counter-melody in the 0:00-0:17 section? Cello in pizzicato? Harp?


 

fring151,

Lovely observation. 0-17 secs sounds like they plucked the strings of the cello, no? That doesn't sound very different from a harp does it? confused 

And the first time I heard the music (for the nth time of course) after you had linked it here, I forgot to observe the timelines you had pointed because the music engulfed (for the nth time Smile ). After it ended did I realize the timelines pointed and heard again. Maestro.

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  fring151 on Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:51 pm

That doesn't sound very different from a harp does it?
Drunkenmunk, I guess there is a subtle difference which trained ears can easily catch. But, I am not very familiar with either the cello or harp, so it's hard to tell.


There is another feature in Raja songs which I have been observing for quite some time, but have not attempted to articulate so far. So, it might come across as vague or imprecise, but I will give it a try nonetheless. Take this song, for instance.






Listen to the whole song first and then pay attention to the second interlude and in particular the section 3:15 to 3:48. What I find very curious here is this: From 3:15 to 3:28, the strings play a fast, restless ostinato pattern to a restrained western flute,  coinciding very interestingly with the spirit of the visuals btw Laughing . The Rajaism here is how the strings then burst into the forefront at 3:33 seizing control from the flute and play the same melody as the flute laid out(!), but with more passion and modulated to a different key such that we don't even realize it. The guitar arpeggio supports it beautifully in the background too. I had other examples to post too, but they skip my mind for now. How a man can write such expressive high level music in minutes without as much as pausing to think boggles my mind every time I think about it.

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  V_S on Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:15 pm

Brilliant observations fring151 the clap Ullaasa paravaigaL was too good with violins coming from back to the front and completely changing the mood. The best part is the way flute is played on top of those violins/cellos and how quickly flute transforms into guitar while violins take up the lead what flute was playing earlier. As our fans say, siththu viLayaattu.

Also that 0-17 seconds is not harp it is cello. I doubt harp can give that clear staccatos.

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  ravinat on Sat Jul 06, 2013 10:17 pm

fring151 wrote:This seems to me like a short set of variations on two central themes. What strikes me as unusual and almost confusing in this is how the counter-melodies in each section are quite similar, but the orchestration and instrumentation give a totally different flavour each time they are repeated. In particular, pay attention to these sections: 1) 0:00 to 0:17  2) 0:37 to 0:37 to 0:54 and 3) 1:40 to 1:57. The clever instrumentation and dynamics make each of these sections sound very different, yet they are melodically virtually identical! Also, any idea of what instrument plays the counter-melody in the 0:00-0:17 section? Cello in pizzicato? Harp?


 

 Great observation fring151. There are several film BGM where he has done something similar. Kadhal Kavishai comes to mind. He takes a particular melody and repeats it with different instruments to suit different situations. This is something most composers do when they like a melody they have composed for a film. If you observe the Gopura Vaasalile title BGM, he uses a variation of 'Devathai Poloru' in flute with a different touch to the melody. However, I would compare this with Kadhal Kavidhai where he took the theme melody and repeated it in 16 different variations in the background score of the movie. I think Suresh Kumar wrote a nice post on it.

  In my view, between 0:00 and 0:17 secs, you have three instruments. Apart from the base melody there are violins in pizzicato and also the cello playing the counter melody to the main melody.

  Unrelated, but another orchestral brilliance that I really enjoyed is the prelude of the song - Hear the first 17 secs of Sandana Maarbile from Nadodi thendral - bells (can be played with a triangle) playing one melody and the flute playing another. If anybody wants to understand what a counterpoint is, this is perhaps the easiest example..


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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  fring151 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:10 am

There are several film BGM where he has done something similar. Kadhal Kavishai comes to mind. He takes a particular melody and repeats it with different instruments to suit different situations. This is something most composers do when they like a melody they have composed for a film. If you observe the Gopura Vaasalile title BGM, he uses a variation of 'Devathai Poloru' in flute with a different touch to the melody. However, I would compare this with Kadhal Kavidhai where he took the theme melody and repeated it in 16 different variations in the background score of the movie. I think Suresh Kumar wrote a nice post on it.
 Very good point Ravinat about the Gopura Vaasalile and kadhal kavidhai BGMs. The idea is quite similar. I think you are right about the use of violins and cello in the Johnny BGM. One observation of mine is that he uses counterpoint extensively in BGMs, perhaps even more than in interludes and more than any other film music composer, Hollywood included. My view is he does it to heighten the tension and add an extra dimension to the visuals. It could also be his attempt to present the protagonists as multi-layered personalities, however stereotypical and one-dimensional they might be in reality. This is another favourite counterpoint BGM.




Ullaasa paravaigaL was too good with violins coming from back to the front and completely changing the mood. The best part is the way flute is played on top of those violins/cellos and how quickly flute transforms into guitar while violins take up the lead what flute was playing earlier
This is exactly what I wanted to convey. cheers  

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  Drunkenmunk on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:24 am

fring151 wrote:What I find very curious here is this: From 3:15 to 3:28, the strings play a fast, restless ostinato pattern to a restrained western flute,  coinciding very interestingly with the spirit of the visuals btw Laughing . The Rajaism here is how the strings then burst into the forefront at 3:33 seizing control from the flute and play [b style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"]the same melody [/b]as the flute laid out(!), but with more passion and modulated to a different key such that we don't even realize it. The guitar arpeggio supports it beautifully in the background too. I had other examples to post too, but they skip my mind for now. How a man can write such expressive high level music in minutes without as much as pausing to think boggles my mind every time I think about it.

Whattey! Brilliant observation. The guy is something else.

Also, this epicmax song:



There is bass guitar and drums. And then, there is sarvanAsh Very Happy 

If we observe, the first two lines of the song,

mEgam kottattum, Attam uNdu
minnal vettattum, pAttum uNdu


have the exact same tune but 'sound' different different because the bass guitar in the first line plays in an octave and in the next line, dives down into a lower octave and thereby changes the color of the 2 lines making them 'sound' like different tunes because of the color it imparts. The one and only Boss of Bass cheers

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  Drunkenmunk on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:37 am

Also, the postlude might not be subtextual to read into it. But what a mix of "khiyAy" that Karate phrase with the drums and that flute which is kind of incomplete and seems to blow the air than the sound to bring that oriental feel and take us to a previous incarnation and back to the re-incarnation! and what about the mirdangam which goes with Chinna Paapaa dancing Laughing  and drums to come to Kamal! All in a matter of a few seconds.

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  fring151 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:19 am

If we observe, the first two lines of the song,

mEgam kottattum, Attam uNdu
minnal vettattum, pAttum uNdu


have the exact same tune but 'sound' different different because the bass guitar in the first line plays in an octave and in the next line, dives down into a lower octave and thereby changes the color of the 2 lines making them 'sound' like different tunes because of the color it imparts. The one and only Boss of Bass 
Yes, yes Precisely! cheers . His gymnastics with the bass guitar merit a separate thread and a couple of bass players to start documenting the technques he has employed. Listen to the song below. The whole song is a display of bass guitar brilliance with a side of juvenile choreographic buffoonery. Listen to the part from 3:15 to 3:21 where the bass guitar alone modulates to a different key (the trumpet remains in key) sounding almost dissonant to the trumpet for one bar and modulates back. I like to think of it as Raja musically expressing his disdain for the  actors' gymnastics at that point. 

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Re: Unusual observations on Raja's orchestration

Post  Drunkenmunk on Sun Jul 07, 2013 4:26 am

fring151,

What a song! Must confess I'm hearing this for the first time Embarassed  Scintillating arrangements. Bass-pathi enna solla? noteworthy

Would also like to share what I wrote for my blog on another incredible song with bass, the iconic iLamai ennum poongAtru, which has another siththu viLayAttu imho from IR.

"I was humming the interlude once (yeah, like that only Smile  ) and wait, something intrigued. Came home –> heard song again –> mind blown.

The first interlude of the song plays. The guitar and violins leave their trademark stamp as usual all over the place but are cut short by a very refined flute. Humming the tune of the flute leaves you intrigued that it is the same tune that plays in the charanam. But Raaja, being the genius that he is, leaves the flute to play only a part of the charanam. And since the charanam begins almost immediately after the flute, he makes the flute play the final part of the charanam that it is hard to guess that the flute and the charanam share the same tune (from the dhEga sugathil gavanam till maNNil aNayA bit, yes bit only) because the first part of the charanam distracts you from guessing so. So what is special about this? It is in the first interlude that he does this and not the second or the third. Before he gives away the tune of the charanam in the charanam, he gives it off in the first interlude. Because he does this in the first interlude when we are hearing the virgin tune while the heroine loses hers, I feel it is deliberate. And it is hard to guess this unless you hum the tune for yourself. I mean, it sounds different."


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