Re: Rajini and Kamal appreciation thread.

[Drunkenmunk]

I mean eppidi irundhavar (box-aapice King) ippidi aayittaar based   Obviously film deserves this cent percent. Not sure what tree distributors were climbing on though. yENdaa vaangum bodhu theriyaadhaa da half-yearly exam season nu?

On second thoughts, idhu Baba lerndhu 3rd time in 7 films. Hmmmm.

[app_engine]

On second thoughts, idhu Baba lerndhu 3rd time in 7 films. Hmmmm.

bAbA - many troubles , including PMK potti thookkal threats etc IIRC. 

Also, regardless of what ARRFs might claim, the album didn't have even 10% reach of muthu or padayappA or previous hits of Rajini with Deva / Chandrabose (interestingly, I lived in Trichy during this time period and could see the pre-release frenzy and post-release azhuvAchchi totally. I didn't get to listen to the songs involuntarily at all - which was very unusual for Rajini songs in Trichy! OTOH, even while living outside of TN, the muthu / padayappA / aNNAmalai / bAtchA / manidhan kind of non-IR songs were force-fed to my ears big time).

Chandramukhi - big hit, both music and movie, big case of music force-fed to my ears

Sivaji - big hit, both music and movie (I do like many songs in this album and listen voluntarily)

enthiran - big hit movie, music not that much reach IMO. Also quickly forgotten. Possibly only remembered by pushy-super-singer-program now, unlike the sivAji songs. That too just one or two numbers, not all.

kusElan - not Rajini in main role, neither movie nor music had any reach

kOchadaiyAn - not Rajini in "flesh and blood" so technically not much blame can go to him. Of course, movie / music both didn't reach me. 

If lingA is the third time, do you mean bAbA & kusElan were the previous occasions of disti demanding "money-back"? 

Were they all very satisfied with kOch? (adhula kOchchukkittavangaLa sari seyyaththAnE 'quickie lingA'nnu pEchchu?)

[Drunkenmunk]

Were they all very satisfied with kOch? (adhula kOchchukkittavangaLa sari seyyaththAnE 'quickie lingA'nnu pEchchu?)

adhaan matter. So adha naan eNNala. adhayum sErthA 4. But Kocha wasn't a regular flick too. Rajini'ye othuNdAr, adha senjurukka koodAdhu nu.

[Wizzy]

this entire business of repaying the distributors for their losses is absolute tosh, 
say if 'Linga' was profitable to them would they even think about sharing their spoils?
iirc Mani Saar started this trend and was the first one to be arm twisted to cover for the losses of Iruvar MG, so much
for his business class mba  

[app_engine]

direct trashing in indhu paper

A friend of mine, a loyal fan said he rushed home after Lingaa and watched Shivaji simply to forget the film. 

One thing funny is everyone complaining about 6 months being a very short time. 

People should be loudly told that most classics of pre-92 (especially music and many movies too) were made in much less time!

[fring151]

https://baradwajrangan.wordpress.com/2014/12/19/the-misogyny-in-rajinikanths-cinema/
Bingo, Rahini David. In addition to being a miserable actor and humility posturing fraud, {deleted} Any Rajni failure is schadenfreude. Just like any Vijay failure.

[Drunkenmunk]

https://baradwajrangan.wordpress.com/2014/12/19/the-misogyny-in-rajinikanths-cinema/
Bingo, Rahini David. In addition to being a miserable actor and humility posturing fraud, {deleted}. Any Rajni failure is schadenfreude. Just like any Vijay failure.

Top stuff. Of course, no sympathy for Rajni films's regressive shit on screen. But the actor in him seems dead now. Anyway budhi theLiya indha mAri ratha keLari thEva dhAn.

[crimson king]

Interestingly enough, Rahini never directly attacked Rajni for the misogyny in his films and posted her list in response to somebody blaming Shankar for misogyny in his films, to argue that other filmmakers were the same.  Why Rangan saar chose to caption it "the misogyny of Rajnikanth's films" only he can tell.     If it's the Kamal fan in him trying to score a point, maybe he needs to be reminded of Singaravelan (while not outright misogyny, it is certainly a very patriarchal mindset presented funnily enough through a song with suggestive lyrics).  And as between the two, I would find misogyny in Kamal's films harder to tolerate given his heavy behind the scenes involvement in all aspects of the film and his tendency to pontificate on what cinema ought to be like on public platforms.  In either case, it is ultimately the filmmakers who have to take the blame and more so the audience which laps it up gleefully without objecting to the image it helps perpetrate.

[Drunkenmunk]

Interestingly enough, Rahini never directly attacked Rajni for the misogyny in his films and posted her list in response to somebody blaming Shankar for misogyny in his films, to argue that other filmmakers were the same.  Why Rangan saar chose to caption it "the misogyny of Rajnikanth's films" only he can tell.     If it's the Kamal fan in him trying to score a point, maybe he needs to be reminded of Singaravelan (while not outright misogyny, it is certainly a very patriarchal mindset presented funnily enough through a song with suggestive lyrics).  And as between the two, I would find misogyny in Kamal's films harder to tolerate given his heavy behind the scenes involvement in all aspects of the film and his tendency to pontificate on what cinema ought to be like on public platforms.  In either case, it is ultimately the filmmakers who have to take the blame and more so the audience which laps it up gleefully without objecting to the image it helps perpetrate.

For one Singaravelan/Sakalakalavallavan (where he says he loses himself to commercial cinema), he gives us a Mahanadhi, Magalir Mattum (which does feminism, erm, right) or a Thevar Magan (Gauthami uses the F word against the hero for cheating her. idhu maari several examples where the responsible films outweigh the ones laden with irresponsible moments with sheer numbers). What has Rajni got against a Mannan and a Padayappa? A clenched fist. And Rajni obviously has more than a say in the script/dialogues and it can be proved by numbers and anecdotal evidences. And the fact is that his films are serial offenders in misogyny. So Kamal vs Rajni on misogyny doesn't really stand.

[crimson king]

I am not saying Kamal is anywhere near as misogynist as Rajni.  Just that with the ultra-progressive views he espouses (down to even questioning the institution of marriage), the moments that he does let slip through in the name of commerce are harder to put up with (for me).  In the end, as I said, it's the audience that is 'responsible' for it.  If the audience does find misogyny in art unpalatable, such films would bomb.  To draw a parallel, if actions matched the self righteous anger voiced against porn, porn as a genre doesn't exist.  The fact is they fulfill a need for entertainment and titillation and as long as they continue to do that, they will find a place in art.  I am morality-neutral on art, though I can't go to Rangan's bizarre extreme of giving an easy pass even to blatant falsification of real events in films in the name of artistic licence.  I think things like THAT or using films to promote hate are problematic and if an artist's freedom is muzzled on those grounds, I am all for it.

[Drunkenmunk]

Fair enough. Except, wrt espousing hate, I wouldn't mind freedom of expression including the right to provoke and offend. Audience can fail the film and criticize it and the filmmaker to their heart's content (countering his hate or nonsense constructively) but the filmmaker should have the right to make the film he pleases imo, whatever the content, and how much ever it exposes his prejudices. it's his choice ultimately to bare his sensibilities or the lack of it.

[crimson king]

Well, I would have a problem if extremists use films simply to further their propaganda.  Like say Taliban making films just to provoke Muslims and incite hatred against other religions.  I don't think such blatant misuse of an artistic medium deserves the freedom of expression that is granted to art.  Happily, such films or works of art are rarely ever made but they do exist.  A Norwegian Pagan metal artist burnt down churches and wrote music about it.  Went to prison, IIRC.

I would certainly be indifferent to cases where something that is alleged to be hateful is not readily apparent and simply inferred with great difficulty.  Like a Boston Legal episode I watched where a black candidate is so unsatisfied with his white interviewer's approval of his candidature that he keeps interrogating what did he like about him until he finally says, "You just don't sound black" and then goes to press about it.  Irrespective of whether such a view can be interpreted to be racist, I don't think a person can be forbidden from merely expressing it.

[Admin]

This is a free discussion forum, we have our own likes and dislikes, but that does not mean we can attack a person which ever way we want even when he is not present. I have removed one statement which would hurt anyone who reads it. Please avoid using those words.

[fring151]

This is a free discussion forum, we have our own likes and dislikes, but that does not mean we can attack a person which ever way we want even when he is not present. I have removed one statement which would hurt anyone who reads it. Please avoid using those words.

That's illogical. I disagree, but whatever...

[app_engine]

Latest on kOch debacle

"thennayap peththA iLaneeru" (yArai nambi nAn poRandhEn song) comes to mind

[app_engine]

Suresh-ET, who made a harsh comment on BRangan blog post on Rudriah death, made this documentary :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOoI4zNEOmI




As speculated by me in an earlier post, this person has some professional contact with Rudraiah's daughter who lives in North America.

MayilSK tweeted about an event in U Of M Ann Arbor where both took part :

http://www.ii.umich.edu/csas/events/ci.tamilcinemaaninterdisciplinaryperspectivesymposiumfri11apr2014_ci.detail

So, the guy seems to know something about what Rudraiah was up to...

[Wizzy]

Suresh-ET, who made a harsh comment on BRangan blog post on Rudriah death,

EnglishTamil?use to frequent his blog, guy with an ax to grind, avar eppomae harsh'a thaen eruppar/pesuvar, fun trolling/interacting with him 

[Drunkenmunk]

Suresh-ET, who made a harsh comment on BRangan blog post on Rudriah death,

EnglishTamil?use to frequent his blog, guy with an ax to grind, avar eppomae harsh'a thaen eruppar/pesuvar, fun trolling/interacting with him 

mEla. Please continue  Looking for more inputs on this guy. Link to blog with your comments will be appreciated  Found his blog via twitter anyway.

[app_engine]

To add to my post, that University of Michigan event was prior to Rudriah's demise. (April 2014). 

So, whatever documentary they showed at that event wasn't exactly this one on youtube (that pays homage to the AA director).

BTW, the docu adds some more weight to my long post on dEvar magan a couple of pages back

There's also another video on FB (link posted by rozavasanth on twitter ) which showcases a mob playing / listening to 'pOtRippAdadi poNNE' during a funeral procession that later turns violent. 

While there may be no direct connection to the song and the violence, in the minds of the oppressed people (who posted that video), it is etched clearly that IR / Kamal have done long-lasting conspiracy against them by that song 

[Drunkenmunk]

I've been mulling over this. My two cents. Yes, like I also shared, the common layman is deeply etched with his assumptions and biases and the song played a big role there. However, that is hardly the fault of the art. Nasser sonnA mAri, kalai innum muzhusA purunjukka maturity illAdha samudhAyam, medhuvA dhAn varuvAnga, medhuvA dhAn varuvAnga  But uLLadha uLLa padi kAttradhu dhAnE kalai. If you notice, the "intellectuals" or profs/scholars who discuss understand where the film was coming from. However, it is the layman who says what we fear. Also, Raaja Alaiosai'kum pOduvAr, Kann Sivandhaal Mann Sivakkum'kum pOduvAr, idhukkum pOduvAr. He is not celebrated for that but panned for this. Maybe those films didn't find acceptance commercially and went unnoticed and this was a mainstream hit? Possible. Again, in the 90s, the mainstream Tamil cinema only exploited the caste Hindu identity (Barathi Kannamma, Ejamaan, Small Gounder, etc.). This film ended up branding some of the widely accepted characteristics of a community negatively. andha soozhalukku this was a brave film'ne solluvEn. But questions on why he had to assert the caste identity remain (adhu mAri yEn Dalit identity'a assert seyyala'ndra kELvi nyAyamAnadhu dhAn) and other than the fact that, from their pov, uLLadha uLLapadi kAtnAr'ndradha thavara vEra badhil illa IMO.

[kid_glove]

Theyyam is a Dalit artform maavE. UV 

[jaiganesh]

i thought jananaathan's points were very strong.
there is a paradox somewhere there.
In jananathan's movie clip, and related censor troubles, he says that FC members of CBFC tell that 
there is no oppression as there is reservation guaranteeing everyone is educated. 

But the docu insists that Raaja must call himself a <>. If he does,
then wont the FC members will say - there you go,<>s have attained greatness so end reservation?
also wont they not quote innumerable praises on Raaja as a magnanimity on their part and close the case of oppression?

Raaja not publicizing his caste keeps the issue a simmering fire (kangu) and rightfully so.

Another aspect to be pondered is the phenomenon of uniform discrimination of dalits all over TN..

I have suspicion that Raaja must have been from a part of TN where there was no major discrimination or oppression and violence based on caste.
That could explain how his family can be close to Bharathiraaja's family and so many others from other backward and backward caste societies and inherently
the lack of passion from Raaja on this subject.

ps: I have left out the caste name as I am not sure.

If someone can provide a different evidence I am willing to reconsider this notion.

[Drunkenmunk]

i thought jananaathan's points were very strong.
there is a paradox somewhere there.
In jananathan's movie clip, and related censor troubles, he says that FC members of CBFC tell that 
there is no oppression as there is reservation guaranteeing everyone is educated. 

But the docu insists that Raaja must call himself a <>. If he does,
then wont the FC members will say - there you go,<>s have attained greatness so end reservation?
also wont they not quote innumerable praises on Raaja as a magnanimity on their part and close the case of oppression?

Raaja not publicizing his caste keeps the issue a simmering fire (kangu) and rightfully so.

Another aspect to be pondered is the phenomenon of uniform discrimination of dalits all over TN..

I have suspicion that Raaja must have been from a part of TN where there was no major discrimination or oppression and violence based on caste.
That could explain how his family can be close to Bharathiraaja's family and so many others from other backward and backward caste societies and inherently
the lack of passion from Raaja on this subject.

ps: I have left out the caste name as I am not sure.

If someone can provide a different evidence I am willing to reconsider this notion.

You have a point Jai. Raaja, in his autobio, Paal Nila Paadhai, makes a passing reference while talking on his childhood, that there were no caste feuds in his village/region and that almost every caste were poor.

[kid_glove]

Conspicuous absence is bad and speaks much about TFI. The notion of artists or film personalities having to stick that label and identify oneself as such and such, is entirely up to them? The class/cast machinery that Jana mentions might well be true and if that is the case, then should we blame the system (for not being conducive) or the person for not sticking that label on the forehead.
 
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[app_engine]

I have suspicion that Raaja must have been from a part of TN where there was no major discrimination or oppression and violence based on caste.
That could explain how his family can be close to Bharathiraaja's family and so many others from other backward and backward caste societies and inherently the lack of passion from Raaja on this subject.

Well, questions related to caste are too complex to find exact answers in the TN context (for any time period, especially for time periods in the past). 

Especially ever since the "suya mariyAdhai" movement gained popularity - which questioned many things (those previously accepted without much challenge in the prior past i.e. 19th / early 20th century time periods). This had a bigger impact on "college-going-boys" of that time period. I don't have to search for evidence here as my dad and 100's of his friends are direct examples of cases who chose to "forget" caste in the mid 20th century! Possibly the college-educated-Chinnasamy aka BR had this frame of mind, at least during 60's & 70's.

And complex also because of the variety of people that constitute the demographics of each region WITHIN TN. (For e.g. what conclusion that one can arrive for a 1960 Madurai district will be very different from the one for 1960 Chennai. Even within Madurai district, the situation wasn't possibly the same for Vadamadurai village compared to Pannaipuram village or its neighboring region).

Then there was the impact of religious conversions in TN which was probably at a rate higher than the northern India during British reign (This is regardless of whether it had minor or major impact on caste. It is true that church goers have more or less the same caste structure as others in TN  - there are even different churches for dalits / non-dalits in some villages, though not explicitly told ; there are also church people who would rather marry a person of same caste even if the person is a Hindu etc. However, there was also a significant % among churchgoers that were not for caste, based on their new-found belief, in the earlier decades). "Daniel Rasiah" wasn't possibly as-untouchable-as "Dalit Rasiah", at least in earlier decades.

Then there was communist movement that was against caste - at the minimum on koLgai level - stronger in Kerala and possibly had a bigger say in the TN border territories as well, one of which IR's village happens to be in; and it is documented history that IR's elder brother was a theevira activist. And the family was possibly well-known for communism in the region.

Apart from all the above societal / background factors, there is this "individual liking / disliking" factor that always exists! Ultimately, this one governs human relationships. It is not uncommon to find friends (even lovers) among various communities even in most-divided societies where one group thirsts for the blood of other! Especially when there is a very strong common interest such as an art form! (iyal-isai-nAdakam)

So, the friendliness of BR-IR despite caste gap, can be attributed to any one of the above. 

Or, it could be based on something beyond what are listed above

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