Hindi film music - Old is Gold

Think they delegated to arrangers to the point of becoming dependent on them. That's why their instrumentation got predictable.  Only MM adapted well to the 70s, for instance, moving almost completely to a guitar-based approach, thus introducing the modern ghazal for which messrs Jagjit Singh & co today hog the credit. Most composers could not reinvent themselves and were too wedded to the style in which they had made their name.

Thanks for that, Munk. As one might expect, he also rightly points out that all those composers had distinctive styles - something which has gone missing in contemporary "universalist" film music.

Perhaps he calls himself untrained or illiterate as he was not formally educated in a conservatory or university and started learning music formally only after he came to Chennai by which time he was already in his early 20s.  (I am not even sure till what class he went to school.. not that it matters) 

But I agree he tends to underrate himself in comparison to his predecessors. That can only be ascribed to the immense respect he has for their work and contributions in laying the foundations of film music (shoulders of giants, as CK said earlier) , not to mention humility.

fring151 wrote:
Perhaps he calls himself untrained or illiterate as he was not formally educated in a conservatory or university and started learning music formally only after he came to Chennai by which time he was already in his early 20s.  (I am not even sure till what class he went to school.. not that it matters) 

But I agree he tends to underrate himself in comparison to his predecessors. That can only be ascribed to the immense respect he has for their work and contributions in laying the foundations of film music (shoulders of giants, as CK said earlier) , not to mention humility.

True. He completed till 8th standard. He recounts in the same book that an astrologer predicted that he would not study beyond 8th. He was keen on proving the astrologer that he enrolled for 9th std with a vengeance but was unable to complete it and started going on tour with eldest brother Pavalar Varadarajan to help family make ends meet. Attributes it to all powerful fate

And he learnt playing the harmonium and flute all by himself. He was a self taught who could play MSV's songs on the harmonium by listening to them. Maybe he means that. And sure, when he started under Dhanraj Master for WCM and Lakshminarayanan (LS, LV's dad) for CCM, he was in his 20s and had started playing concerts for SPB. So the foundation was self laid. Sure, he did have Dakshinamurthy Swamigal, TV Gopalakrishnan later on and another WCM expert from whom he learnt theory and writing. But again, in the same book, he says he cleared Trinity College's exam with a distinction (85% then) purely by self-learning after Dhanraj Master refused to teach him after a point due to difference of opinion. So from his perspective, he may be right

And of course, he underrates himself and overrates a few (obviously not all because a lot of them are deserving of *all* his praises) of his predecessors out of true humility.

DNA today carried an article on the diminishing presence of ghazals in Bollywood (with strangely not a mention of Phir Le Aaya Dil-e-Majboor at least to acknowledge those who are trying to keep it going).  


http://dnasyndication.com/dna/top_news/dna_english_news_and_features/Ghazal_goes_out_of_tune_in_Bollywood_at_100/DNMUM312419

And they put a top 10 list with just one Rafi song, just one MM song and NO Talat Mehmood songs.  Wah wah wah, gazab!      In a way, they prove their own point.  Indeed, even those who are trying to write about ghazals in Bollywood don't remember...

crimson king wrote:DNA today carried an article on the diminishing presence of ghazals in Bollywood (with strangely not a mention of Phir Le Aaya Dil-e-Majboor at least to acknowledge those who are trying to keep it going).  


http://dnasyndication.com/dna/top_news/dna_english_news_and_features/Ghazal_goes_out_of_tune_in_Bollywood_at_100/DNMUM312419

And they put a top 10 list with just one Rafi song, just one MM song and NO Talat Mehmood songs.  Wah wah wah, gazab!      In a way, they prove their own point.  Indeed, even those who are trying to write about ghazals in Bollywood don't remember...

LOL. Again, it's the movie and Lataji. Let's know who composed you Amits!

Yes, that too!  No importance to the persons who conceived it, the composer and the lyricist.  No mention of which great composers and lyricists shaped the art in its heyday.

KIshore's Live performance. Nice one.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgsFrR-kkus


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUj7vKD5ggg

Salil compositiion........ so sweet..... becoz of the compositiion.. becoz of the  Lata .. becoz of Vaijanthimala..

Ghadi Ghadi mora

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JRJHtk-ZkI

Discovered this Roshan-Rafi song today in Raaga_Suresh's YT Roshan playlist. Just how expressive was this man's singing! Quite evident where SPB draws his inspiration from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZO9-iNL13Q&index=11&list=PLSv5Q60S5dwSbSc5h03keDK-QVbF1Kn5b

Ah, yes, that's another beauty.  One aspect that Rafi excelled in which SPB couldn't quite incorporate (because of the Carnatic foundations of Tamil music) was his use of legato.  The way he can just glide through notes in a languid manner adds a lot to the emotions he conveys, especially in such romantic solos.  Talat and Manna Dey could also do legato well but were not very good in romantic songs per se while Kishore, who was good in that genre, couldn't do legato.  So it's no surprise that Rafi occupies a pretty unique position among Indian playback singers, striking a sweet spot in the balance between technique and expression.

crimson king wrote:Ah, yes, that's another beauty.  One aspect that Rafi excelled in which SPB couldn't quite incorporate (because of the Carnatic foundations of Tamil music) was his use of legato.

Agree that Rafi was a master of legato, but I don't see how it is fundamentally at odds with Carnatic music which also often involves an interplay of legato and staccato phrasings? Maybe less so than in Hindustani which I am not too familiar with.

Another lovely Madan MOhan composition which I found from this list: http://sunheriyaadein.wordpress.com/2010/07/14/ten-of-my-favourite-madan-mohan-songs/ 




And a Talat Mahmood song from the same Roshan playlist

I think Carnatic emphasises staccato a lot more than Hindustani and that character has found its way into TFM.  Rhythm is a lot more important in Carnatic, hence the vocalists/musicians separate syllables distinctly to fit it within the meter.  You don't find Carnatic vocalists overriding the backbeat and then adjusting but that's much more common in Hindustani, which is also the case in ghazals and which Rafi and Talat brought to their film singing.  SPB does that sometimes in live performances but generally not in the studio.

No Reason.........  age of 10.. i listened  this song....... 

apparam.. ipo dhan parthen.. kaeten......... lyric theriyamal..  padam per theriyamal...  hero yar endru theiryamal
thediya oru paatu idhu........   chinna vayasu feelings..  andha days.. adhu dhan nyabagam vandhadhu....... sandhoshamaga........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7U4fLd6Wgo

Not really one of my favourites because Kishore is into his twilight here and gives a tired rendition.  BUT listen to the interlude from around 2:57 especially where the violins come in.  The way they have been harmonised is interesting.  In Hindi, nobody else was doing it quite that way at that point but, but, but, it is strangely reminiscent of Ilayaraja.  Especially Indha Minminikku.  There is even a kural devadhai section right after the violins...la la la was not used very much, again, at that time in Hindi.  Later on Jatin Lalit did incorporate these elements in a very cliched way in their songs.  But I wonder if RD was in fact influenced by IR at that time and wanted to incorporate some of his choices in his own songs as he used to admire IR a lot.  RD was quite prepared to try different things in his orchestration in the 80s; sadly Bollywood had completely dumbed down at that time and there was no place for his more melodic, classy music by the mid 80s.

1980.. SAnam theri kasam - Kishore. Nice one..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxt-x_eEw4A

indha paatu... indha stlyle....... indirect aga theiryum oru time control for the instruments... andha jerk iladha modulation... IR ai ninaika thonum.......



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXaqBNTl7zI

The velvety and poignant vocals  of Talat Mahmood and early glimpses of the great tunesmith that MM was. In the next song, Rafi brings all his expressive craft to board, capturing every contour and undulation of the intricate tapestry woven by the composer. I have been thinking of writing a top 10 Madan Mohan post sometime, but am increasingly beginning to feel that, just like with IR, it is impossible to stop at ten!

Try 50.  That might do justice. The great thing about MM was even if he stuck to ghazals, he consistently maintained a very high quality within that niche and came up with great tunes over and over.  His arrangements were also mostly very tasteful.  Rarely have I felt that the arrangements were too banal or noisy and detracted from the melody.

Ya,I recently remarked about this on twitter. I strongly suspect that, at least on his Ghazal and semi-classical compositions (which are a large chunk), MM worked very closely with an arranger, laying out the tune and choice of instruments, providing at least a skeleton of an interlude which the arranger probably worked around. I can clearly sense this approach in songs like "Naino me badra chaaye" or "Mera saaya saatth hoga" where the entire composition sounds so organic with seamless transitions and bridges that mostly strike me as the conception of one mind. OTOH, on certain other songs like "Tum jo mil gaye ho", kersi Lord probably had a greater hand in the instrumentation and WCM details. I believe the Sitar we hear in his songs were usually played by Ustad Rais Khan with whom, again I suspect MM had a very close collaboration.

Net, net interludes and instrumentation in his songs are is, like you said, usually very tasteful and interesting. Quite unlike in the case of some other HFM composers or even our own puyal down south.

From what I know, he used to get deep into the nitty gritties of arrangements and was supposed to be a terrifying taskmaster for the musicians.  He also collaborated closely with his favourite musicians like Rais Khan, yes.  On the whole, paid a lot more attention to his interludes than just about any of his contemporaries.  Naushad or Roshan could give elegant interludes, that's different.  MM's interludes, somewhat like IR, could tell a story of their own, explore and experiment within the 30 second time limit.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/entertainment/music/lata-mangeshkar-records-song-composed-by-late-salil-chowdhury/article1-1269063.aspx

Looking forward to hear it though Lata is well past her prime.

More interested in the composition, tbh.  Her voice was terrible even way back when she sang the Veer Zara (MM) songs.  Can't imagine what this will turn out like.

Speaking of Veer Zara, "Tere Liye" apparently was an alternate tune composed for "Dil dhoondhtha hai" sung by Bhoopinder Singh.

Yes, it was.  I had noticed uncanny similarities between the two compositions even before I found out that Tere Liye was originally composed for the Dil Dhoondtha situation (and lyrics).

Big size team lunch in an Italaian restaurant (award giving / certificate giving by biggies and all) and I was sitting in the table with a few northies.

One of them was assertive that Thamizhians are the only fellows in India who unreasonably attack Hindi and there had never been a 'thiNippu' etc. I mildly started to opine on why it's nonsensical to even expact TN to accept indhi / not resist etc but wasn't ballistic (considering the setting).

Then the fellow went on to tell how historically Thamizh as a language had no mention of math, Thamizhs never had the concept of numbers etc. I got really irritated but once again didn't want to freak out, considering the setting.

Also, it's futile to talk to a fellow who said "I even studied thirukkural and found no concept of math"
(Apparently this Bhopal fellow spent a few years in Chennai working for a software firm and has the audacity to fancy himself to be an authority on ancient Thamizh )

Well, the restaurant was playing some instrumental music thru out (mostly classicals from EU) and this particular piece suddently caught my attention - as this sounded very familiar to an Indian song!

I requested the northies to please listen to the music being played and asked them if it sounds familiar
So, we all ended up listening to it for a few minutes, no conversation and everybody agreed - yes, it is an indhi classic, probably rAj kapoor etc etc. None of them could quickly catch the song.

Then, with a poker face, I told the fellows 'AjA sanam' (chOri chOri, pls refer the first post of this thread)

It took them some time to register that a 'seemingly-Thamizh-chauvinist-with-absolutely-no-indhi-aRivu' can effortlessly pick on one of their cult songs!

With obvious shock, the thirukkural guy flattered me 'hey, you are just fantastic'

I'm planning to teach him 'எண்ணென்ப ஏனை எழுத்தென்ப...' in the next opportunity