Re: Jukebox - what's playing?

fring151 Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:48 am

Speaking of Beethoven, do you like his late string quartets? I like a lot of Beethoven's works, but somehow the late string quartets, including the 'Great Fugue' which are regarded in some circles as his greatest works have never caught my fancy. Maybe some day they will...

Listening to this now.

crimson king Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:22 am

I am not even aware that he wrote string quartets, lol. I have only heard a few of his symphonies so far. Other than the Ninth, I also like the Fifth and the Seventh though I haven't yet come to like any symphony of any composer as much as Beethoven's Ninth.

fring151 Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:26 am

Can't really go wrong with Beethoven's 5th, 7th and 9th. The second movement of the 7th is one of my favourite pieces of music by Beethoven. Actually there's not too many full symphonies or concertos or sonatas I like - usually only certain movements. Now wcm purists will call me a philistine for saying that. #escape Smile

Bala (Karthik) Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:01 am

fring151 wrote:It is an interesting question to ponder - was Raja influenced at all by classic/prog rock bands of the 70s? Possible - particularly the idea of building and resolution of tension and dissonance. However, I don't see any overt influences in the sense that he doesn't borrow heavily from these genres in terms of song structure or any specific chord progressions. His bass work and use of the acoustic/electric guitar is also for the most part radically different from that of rock/jazz. For example I don't recall hearing a single blues scale based guitar riff or solo (the bread and butter of classic rock) in his music at all! For that matter, even bended notes are rare. Being a guitarist himself , I presume he developed his own philosophy for the instrument, which is not surprising at all. I really wish he would compose a guitar only instrumental al

A music illiterate but a classic rock fan here. To my ears, I don't see him being inspired by (in the sense of using phrases or riffs) by any contemporary (then) act. Only discernible riff is a Hendrix like opening for Senorita. When it comes to bass lines especially, absolutely unique - of course, one could see Bach but that apart, "nothing like anything". It's a mystery why we don't get to see such bass parts in his works any more

Bala (Karthik) Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:02 am

Very difficult to quote and post (or is it the mobile interface)

Bala (Karthik) Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:08 am

Before I knew Jethro Tull's Bouree was a rearrangement of Bach's original, I thought I had my Eureka moment and thought the bass lines are so Raaja Laughing

Btw CK and Frings
Do you guys listen to Phish?

fring151 Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:55 am

Bala(Karthik) wrote:A music illiterate but a classic rock fan here. To my ears, I don't see him being inspired by (in the sense of using phrases or riffs) by any contemporary (then) act. Only discernible riff is a Hendrix like opening for Senorita. When it comes to bass lines especially, absolutely unique - of course, one could see Bach but that apart, "nothing like anything". It's a mystery why we don't get to see such bass parts in his works any more

The Senorita opening does sound like Hendrix, but then again all he did was to use the wah-wah pedal with the electric guitar, so the similarity is quite superficial. Also, I guess we must distinguish between inspiration and influence here. I would call instances where the idea for a riff or an opening came from another composer or band such as 'Darling darling' as isolated inspirations. Influence on the other hand to me would be composer(s) who consistently inspired him and from whom he borrowed substantially in terms of musical ideas such as polyphonic exposition or string section arrangements or raga explorations etc. I have not heard enough of Carnatic music to guess who his influences were in that realm, but as far as western music goes, to me it seems (and he also confirms it in interviews) that he was most influenced by Bach and to a lesser extent Mozart. Bach's influence can obviously be seen in his polyphonic experiments and Mozart's, to a degree in his strings arrangements. It is also possible that he likes a number of other composers, although his work has not really been influenced by them.

Btw, another superficial similarity would be the opening rhythm guitar of Saindhu Saindhu which instantly reminded me of 'Another brick in the wall' and 'Ennodu vaa vaa' whose beginning was sort of like 'Gimme gimme gimme' by ABBA. But obviously, only an idiot would call these songs copies or claim ABBA or BoneyM influenced Raja - they can at best be considered 'isolated inspirations' to use my own coinage. Smile

As for Phish, I haven't heard them. Any song/album recommendations?

fring151 Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:41 am

Btw, just heard this song from Rajarani which has apparently been topping the charts in TN for the whole month. Does anyone honestly think people will be listening to this song in 2015, forget 2050. Mad

The previous chart topper was this

crimson king Wed Oct 02, 2013 1:24 pm

Not exactly music but still funny:

crimson king Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:00 pm

One of the first Rafi songs that I really liked:

Drunkenmunk Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:40 pm

wah! Now that this song was played, Falsafa Pyar comes to mind, similar party settings and Rafi again. What emotions he brings through the travel in this song!

crimson king Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:45 pm

I don't think I have ever properly heard that song, if at all. Listening to it now, Rafi is incredible, as usual. Composition sounds like a ballroom variation on O Mere Shah-e-Kubaan.

crimson king Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:49 pm

Another great Sanjay Khan-piano-number with Rafi's voice. This time, music by Sonik-Omi. Rafi gave his heart out to some of their compositions (Dono Ne Kiya Tha is another).

Drunkenmunk Sat Oct 05, 2013 8:05 pm

Lovely. Another vintage Rafi

writeface Sun Oct 06, 2013 5:45 am

Talking Heads - Making Flippy Floppy (starting at position 04:01): Awesome bassline plus check out the indian melody in the middle.

Gokul

**V_S** Mon Oct 07, 2013 4:46 am

Please post your old hindi favorites here: https://ilayaraja.forumms.net/t42-hindi-film-music-old-is-gold

Bala (Karthik) Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:29 pm

fring151 wrote:
The Senorita opening does sound like Hendrix, but then again all he did was to use the wah-wah pedal with the electric guitar, so the similarity is quite superficial. Also, I guess we must distinguish between inspiration and influence here. I would call instances where the idea for a riff or an opening came from another composer or band such as 'Darling darling' as isolated inspirations. Influence on the other hand to me would be composer(s) who consistently inspired him and from whom he borrowed substantially in terms of musical ideas such as polyphonic exposition or string section arrangements or raga explorations etc. I have not heard enough of Carnatic music to guess who his influences were in that realm, but as far as western music goes, to me it seems (and he also confirms it in interviews) that he was most influenced by Bach and to a lesser extent Mozart. Bach's influence can obviously be seen in his polyphonic experiments and Mozart's, to a degree in his strings arrangements. It is also possible that he likes a number of other composers, although his work has not really been influenced by them.

Btw, another superficial similarity would be the opening rhythm guitar of Saindhu Saindhu which instantly reminded me of 'Another brick in the wall' and 'Ennodu vaa vaa' whose beginning was sort of like 'Gimme gimme gimme' by ABBA. But obviously, only an idiot would call these songs copies or claim ABBA or BoneyM influenced Raja - they can at best be considered 'isolated inspirations' to use my own coinage.

As for Phish, I haven't heard them. Any song/album recommendations?

Yes, that's what i meant (senorita) - andha alavukku thaan similarity irukkum (largely).

Phish - Essentially a jam band
My favorites:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OfQCAj2Ppg (Stash - studio version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG4p_gFx1oc (Suzy Greenberg, live)
Ungalukku, CK kum pudikkum nu nenaikkaren (they also do covers)

crimson king Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:51 pm

Not to prolong this discussion, but I was referring to progressive rock and not classic/straight up rock. I do hear a greater degree of similarity in say the Camel tracks I posted than between Senorita and Hendrix. There are similarities in the way some musical passages are developed (taking time to mathematically explore variations), tone selection and dynamics (as a rule, prog rock, especially from the 70s, is way more dynamic than typical rock music). Why this is important is that prog rock musicians were also attempting to imbibe a classical music ethos and use classical techniques to expand the horizons of popular music (which in a sense is what IR has achieved in Tamil film music). That is the only parallel I know of in popular music. Prog rock and Ilayaraja don't believe in the notion of clear separation between classical and popular music. Where IR has been even more brilliant (apart from infusing Western into Tamil music, an incredible thing to do) is to make the music accessible and write it in pop structure (pallavi-interlude-charanam) while still incorporating so much complexity in the details.

fring151 Sat Oct 12, 2013 8:49 pm

I agree. I was talking mainly about classic/non-prog rock. Hearing some of the prog stuff recommended by you (heard In the wake of the Poseidon btw - loved it, except for Cat food which was a bit too whacky for me alien

), I can sort of understand how you see some parallels with prog rock, particularly wrt incorporating elaborate arrangements and classical influences (in the case of IR, both ICM and WCM). But one aspect that differentiates him IMO, apart from accessibility is the intricate strings arrangements and extensive/consistent counterpoint usage in a popular format. I think these are not so common even in prog rock no?

crimson king Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:03 pm

I don't like Cat Food that much (or that album, for that matter).

As for counterpoint, I have heard many prog rock bands use it. It is just not necessarily as pervasive an element as it is in IR's music. Jethro Tull and Gentle Giant tend to use it a lot but I have also heard it in Yes, Genesis, Focus, Renaissance among other bands. There's actually lots and lots of prog rock music from the 70s and the two most popular ones, Pink Floyd and Jethro Tull, are just the tip of the iceberg. A prog rock fogey from the 70s claimed to have listened to about 200 fusion bands at that time and to have got tired of it. I can imagine! Shocked

Another thing: as gifted as some of these bands were, they often tended to focus more on the orchestration, arrangements, structure, etc. To me, all these are still necessarily byproducts of a motif. It is not that their compositions do not have a motif but it is not necessarily as well explored as in IR's compositions. They generally lacked his exceptional brilliance in churning out great melodies (which happened to go along with great arrangements and weren't intended to serve pre-programmed arrangements).

fring151 Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:38 pm

crimson king wrote:Another thing: as gifted as some of these bands were, they often tended to focus more on the orchestration, arrangements, structure, etc. To me, all these are still necessarily byproducts of a motif. It is not that their compositions do not have a motif but it is not necessarily as well explored as in IR's compositions. They generally lacked his exceptional brilliance in churning out great melodies (which happened to go along with great arrangements and weren't intended to serve pre-programmed arrangements).

Absolutely. I don't care much for elaborate ornamentation if the central motif or theme is not catchy, or worse if there isn't one at all.
It then becomes - to use hyperbole - like "decorating a corpse". That's where I think the traditional Pallavi-interlude-charanam format scores over others. There is a reason it's popular and liked as it provides a good template around which to compose and gives the listener something concrete to hang on to.

fring151 Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:53 am

Also any particular recos for Jethro Tull (haven't heard much of them), Genesis and Yes? I gave a listen to Tales from topographic oceans, but couldn't really get 'into' it.

crimson king Sun Oct 13, 2013 4:34 am

I wouldn't go so far as the "decorating a corpse" analogy because the motifs they used were probably catchier than what passes for mainstream rock today (or even some of the one hit wonder bands of the 70s). I hear people say Gentle Giant is not catchy and to a certain extent I agree but at the same time they are a lot more infectious than what I hear on radio these days. It's just that Ilayaraja sets the bar so impossibly high.

Recommendations

Jethro Tull - Songs from the wood, Aqualung, Thick as a Brick

Yes - Fragile, The Yes Album. If these click, then move on to Close to the Edge. TFTO is an overblown monster...one that often helps spread a negative view about prog.

Genesis - Hmm...start with Selling England By the Pound. Then, maybe Trick of the Tail and Lamb Lies Down on Broadway. After that, Foxtrot, Nursery Cryme, Wind and Wuthering. All their albums from Nursery Cryme to Wind and Wuthering have something to offer. After that, they sold their soul to the pop industry. Evil or Very Mad

fring151 Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:54 am

Thanks for the recos. Will check them out. Very Happy

. Hearing Fragile and liking it - much much better than TFTO.

And IMO, almost nothing in the mainstream is worth listening to today. The only good contemporary music I hear on the radio is jazz by little known artists. Hip hop is sort of like an occasional guilty indulgence of mine afro

For ex, I find the the school Dr.Dre, Ice Cube and Snoop Dogg quite catchy . But even in hip hop, the last few years have been pretty dismal. Snoop Lion (as Snoop Dogg has reinvented himself) doesn't appeal to me and neither d Akon or 50 cent or any of the others.

crimson king Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:15 am

It depends...on the surface there are lots of boring chart topping artists dominating the scene. But Muse, a Scottish rock band, is still going strong. They have got pretty streamlined now compared to when they started but I especially love their Absolution album. And I love Fiona Apple's work, though she takes far too long between albums. She is still keeping the American songwriting tradition alive and has in fact given it an edgy, angry twist. Joanna Newsom has received a lot of acclaim though I kind of find her work over complicated and rambling to get into. The young British band Everything Everything has atrocious vocals but fabulous arrangements. Unlike the film music scene, there's still some good stuff happening even within the mainstream but we need to sift the wheat from the chaff and choose what we like.

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