Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:15 pm

Ravi,

Super as usual. The recording is good but I wish we get an even clearer recording to hear various threads clearly. Some outstanding music is happening here.

BTW, if someone knows Myskin, they can pass this link to him so that he is happy that there is a segment which is appreciating the music. While initially it sounded very western, after listening for a few times carefully who can hear the Raja touch in many places.

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  app_engine on Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:17 pm

ravinat wrote:
Walking through Life & Death - Technical walkthrough harmony & melody
Thoroughly enjoyed the tutorial / walk-thru!

Thank you so much! (I shared this link in twitter)

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  V_S on Thu Sep 19, 2013 6:25 pm

Raaga_Suresh wrote:BTW, if someone knows Myskin, they can pass this link to him so that he is happy that there is a segment which is appreciating the music.
Suresh ji,
I don't know Mysskin but I got the mail id of lonewolf from that site and sent a mail thanking him for the score couple of days ago. Just now sent out out link too as you expressed. Not sure if he read it, but still. Smile

Yes. Ravi has truly ignited our interests by his in-depth writing and analysis. noteworthy Thanks a lot!

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Art is a lie that makes us realize the truth - Pablo Picasso

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  ravinat on Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:03 pm

Fairy Tale in Detail
---------------------
 
  This is the longest track among the 10 BGM tracks. Keeping the listener's interest through such scores is hard. I was reminded of what Michael Giacchino did with 'Up'. In the first 30 minutes of the film, there are so many sad parts, that is hard to keep the animation audience engaged (kids). MG did that with his scores as the sequences played from one shot to the next dissolved shot. Not sure what Myskkin would show on screen, but this score will keep the audience engaged. Let's get tot he details:
 
0:01 to 0:38 secs : The first 9 seconds is a solo violin that plays a heart wrenching melody. The cellos play in the background in harmony. What's so great about this? Raja has done it in a thousand films. Observe what goes on between 10 and 18 secs. The same melody on a different pitch with the cellos doing the background harmony. In my understanding, this is melody imitation in harmony - or fugue. Between 18 and 27 seconds, the melody is again repeated at a third pitch with the cellos doing the backing harmony. Between  28 and 38 seconds, the foreground violins do the imitation of the same melody with the cellos doing the backing harmony. There is a minor variation in the imitation which adds beauty to the fugue. Fugue rules allow that. The is whole fugue segment is a stage of a fairy in my view. Vintage Raja! How on earth does he figure out the use of this 300 year old  technique to a modern 2013 film, that even the most capable Hollywood composers are afraid of? (For Carnatic pundits. it's like they going crazy when Raja chooses Sarasaangi for his SB experimentation!)Very Happy 
 
0:39 to 1:04 secs: This appears like another stage of the fairy's life. Notice the change of tone with the solo violin. The backing harmonies continue and the main solo violin melody that is played during this time is a simple repetition twice of about 11 seconds each. This is a simple portrayal of something that is neither dramatic nor very extreme (joyful, sorrow) - it is a simple harmony based narrative
 
1:05 to 1:24 secs: This appears like the third stage of the fairy's life. There is no more solo violins, but replaced by fore and background harmonies.
 
1:25 to 2:48 secs: The soothing flute part perhaps signifies a happy stage in a fairy's tale (to be confirmed with the visuals). A superficial look at this part will make you feel comfortable that Raja plays a folkish melody with an Indian touch. That is GROSS injustice to the genius. Let me explain what this man has done in those 83 seconds. He would have written this score faster than it would take you to read my description!  He divides this whole 83 seconds into 2 even part and one uneven part. The first even part is between 1:25 and 1:57 seconds. The second even part is between 2:02 and 2:36 seconds. Leave a second for a sustain and your math will tie up exactly. He takes the 32 seconds and divides them into four 8-second parts. For example, in the first even part, between 1:25 and 1:30, there is a reference flute melody (folkish). The backing harmony violins continue.  Between 1:31 and 1:42, the initial melody is imitated with a variance. Between 1:43 and 1:52, the second imitation of the same melody. Lastly, the third imitation plays between 1:53 and 1:57. This whole thing is a fugue unit (between 1:25 and 1:57, with three imitations and a main melody). Between 1:58 and 2:02, Raja uses a cello/double bass intervention and I was wondering why. He follows this with another fugue unit where he has cleverly taken the next 32 seconds to create another simple melody and 3 imitations. Between 2:02 and 2:10, you hear the main melody. Following this, you hear the first imitation between 2:11 and 2:19, the second imitation between 2:20 and 2:29 and the third imitation between 2:30 and 2:38. Now, this is two fugue units with equal number of imitations thrown back to back. Calling it a soothing flute melody would be a total understatement. Raja uses a similar double bass/cello intervention to put an end marker to the second fugue unit. The remaining time in this segment, between 2:42 and 2:48 is a finish with a simple melody that repeats itself twice. Now, why am I describing this in such detail. Back to back fugue units are very rare.  Perfectly symmetric back to back fugue units - please show me a composer after Bach, whose name does not start with I cheers 
 
2:47 to 2:56 secs: Silence. We know this is a staple Raja technique for grabbing viewer attention.
 
2:57 to 3:32 secs: First off there are foreground violins in high pitch playing a nice melody till 3:06 and they slip into the background and continue. The cellos and the violins playing in a lower pitch play the foreground melody for the rest of this segment. Strikes me as a segment that shows a change within that phase of the fairy's tale.
 
3:33 to 3:38 secs: Silence. We know this is a staple Raja technique for grabbing viewer attention.
 
3:39 to 3:53 secs: This perhaps signifies a dramatic change in situation after the roles getting reversed in the previous segment. The change in situation is played out between a happy solo violin with the double bass/cello responding to the happy note.
 
3:54 to 3:58 secs: Silence. We know this is a staple Raja technique for grabbing viewer attention.
 
3:59 to 5:02 secs: This is a long segment that could mean a whole bunch of things. It is hard to second guess this. Between 3:39 and 4:38, the foreground and background violins play as though one is responding to the other. Raja used this technique in Marupadiyum to signify upheaval and how the reality of the situation sinks into the main character. It is almost like reacting to a heavy blow in someone's emotions. Between 4:38 and 5:02, the solo violin replaces the foreground violins and the background violins respond to the sad tone of the solo violin.  It's upheaval in two musical colors, as I see it.
 
  The score itself appears to have 6 separate parts. It is hard to call them movements as they are not. However, it is like telling a six part story, some of which are short passages and others longer. Some are happy, others are not.
 
   Please hear the track with my notes and let me know if there are any errors in observation.
 
  And yes, please draw your own conclusions after that. To me, this is genius, especially part 1 and part 3!


Last edited by ravinat on Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:09 pm; edited 3 times in total

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  app_engine on Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:28 pm

ravinat wrote:
Fairy Tale in Detail
WOW, yet another great study!

mikka nanRi sir!

(Promptly shared the link in twitter)

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  jaiganesh on Thu Sep 19, 2013 10:23 pm

ravinat wrote:Fairy Tale in Detail
---------------------
 
  This is the longest track among the 10 BGM tracks. Keeping the listener's interest through such scores is hard. I was reminded of what Michael Giacchino did with 'Up'. In the first 30 minutes of the film, there are so many sad parts, that is hard to keep the animation audience engaged (kids). MG did that with his scores as the sequences played from one shot to the next dissolved shot. Not sure what Myskkin would show on screen, but this score will keep the audience engaged. Let's get tot he details:
 
0:01 to 0:38 secs : The first 9 seconds is a solo violin that plays a heart wrenching melody. The cellos play in the background in harmony. What's so great about this? Raja has done it in a thousand films. Observe what goes on between 10 and 18 secs. The same melody on a different pitch with the cellos doing the background harmony. In my understanding, this is melody imitation in harmony - or fugue. Between 18 and 27 seconds, the melody is again repeated at a third pitch with the cellos doing the backing harmony. Between  28 and 38 seconds, the foreground violins do the imitation of the same melody with the cellos doing the backing harmony. There is a minor variation in the imitation which adds beauty to the fugue. Fugue rules allow that. The is whole fugue segment is a stage of a fairy in my view. Vintage Raja! How on earth does he figure out the use of this 300 year old  technique to a modern 2013 film, that even the most capable Hollywood composers are afraid of? (For Carnatic pundits. it's like they going crazy when Raja chooses Sarasaangi for his SB experimentation!)Very Happy 
 
0:39 to 1:04 secs: This appears like another stage of the fairy's life. Notice the change of tone with the solo violin. The backing harmonies continue and the main solo violin melody that is played during this time is a simple repetition twice of about 11 seconds each. This is a simple portrayal of something that is neither dramatic nor very extreme (joyful, sorrow) - it is a simple harmony based narrative
 
1:05 to 1:24 secs: This appears like the third stage of the fairy's life. There is no more solo violins, but replaced by fore and background harmonies.
 
1:25 to 2:48 secs: The soothing flute part perhaps signifies a happy stage in a fairy's tale (to be confirmed with the visuals). A superficial look at this part will make you feel comfortable that Raja plays a folkish melody with an Indian touch. That is GROSS injustice to the genius. Let me explain what this man has done in those 83 seconds. He would have written this score faster than it would take you to read my description!  He divides this whole 83 seconds into 2 even part and one uneven part. The first even part is between 1:25 and 1:57 seconds. The second even part is between 2:02 and 2:36 seconds. Leave a second for a sustain and your math will tie up exactly. He takes the 32 seconds and divides them into four 8-second parts. For example, in the first even part, between 1:25 and 1:30, there is a reference flute melody (folkish). The backing harmony violins continue.  Between 1:31 and 1:42, the initial melody is imitated with a variance. Between 1:43 and 1:52, the second imitation of the same melody. Lastly, the third imitation plays between 1:53 and 1:57. This whole thing is a fugue unit (between 1:25 and 1:57, with three imitations and a main melody). Between 1:58 and 2:02, Raja uses a cello/double bass intervention and I was wondering why. He follows this with another fugue unit where he has cleverly taken the next 32 seconds to create another simple melody and 3 imitations. Between 2:02 and 2:10, you hear the main melody. Following this, you hear the first imitation between 2:11 and 2:19, the second imitation between 2:20 and 2:29 and the third imitation between 2:30 and 2:38. Now, this is two fugue units with equal number of imitations thrown back to back. Calling it a soothing flute melody would be a total understatement. Raja uses a similar double bass/cello intervention to put an end marker to the second fugue unit. The remaining time in this segment, between 2:42 and 2:48 is a finish with a simple melody that repeats itself twice. Now, why am I describing this in such detail. Back to back fugue units are very rare.  Perfectly symmetric back to back fugue units - please show me a composer after Bach, whose name does not start with I cheers 
 
2:47 to 2:56 secs: Silence. We know this is a staple Raja technique in grabbing viewer attention.
 
2:57 to 3:32 secs: First off there are foreground violins in high pitch playing a nice melody till 3:06 and they slip into the background and continue. The cellos and the violins playing in a lower pitch play the foreground melody for the rest of this segment. Strikes me as a segment that shows a change within that phase of the fairy's tale.
 
3:33 to 3:38 secs: Silence. We know this is a staple Raja technique in grabbing viewer attention.
 
3:39 to 3:53 secs: This perhaps signifies a dramatic change in situation after the roles getting reversed in the previous segment. The change in situation is played out between a happy solo violin with the double bass/cello responding to the happy note.
 
3:54 to 3:58 secs: Silence. We know this is a staple Raja technique in grabbing viewer attention.
 
3:59 to 5:02 secs: This is a long segment that could mean a whole bunch of things. It is hard to second guess this. Between 3:39 and 4:38, the foreground and background violins play as though one is responding to the other. Raja used this technique in Marupadiyum to signify upheaval and how the reality of the situation sinks into the main character. It is almost like reacting to a heavy blow in someone's emotions. Between 4:38 and 5:02, the solo violin replaces the foreground violins and the background violins respond to the sad tone of the solo violin.  It's upheaval in two musical colors, as I see it.
 
  The score itself appears to have 6 separate parts. It is hard to call them movements as they are not. However, it is like telling a six part story, some of which are short passages and others longer. Some are happy, others are not.
 
   Please hear the track with my notes and let me know if there are any errors in observation.
 
  And yes, please draw your own conclusions after that. To me, this is genius, especially part 1 and part 3!
Fantastic - I had similar doubts on the flute right in the middle - it is a pivot for the entire score - However i know little about any music in terms of thinking about fugue and all - but yes - it is not a simple flute melody - it has a trance inducing feel to it - a sort of depth that is unusual.

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  kiru on Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:59 am

Ravi, thanks again. much appreciated. This imitation/fugue thing seems to have a parallel in our own music, isn't it ? Maybe that is the reason IR is doing it even though it is 300 years old (?) Any thoughts .

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  Balu on Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:37 am

Kamesh B - 

Did you contact DIRECTOR Mysskin? What does he say about the cds?

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  ravinat on Fri Sep 20, 2013 4:41 pm

kiru wrote:Ravi, thanks again. much appreciated. This imitation/fugue thing seems to have a parallel in our own music, isn't it ? Maybe that is the reason IR is doing it even though it is 300 years old (?) Any thoughts .
Kiru

  Imitation is part of every musical system. Imitation is the secret sauce behind most melody construction and all classical systems - Carnatic/Hindustani have special constructs for this. I remember L.Subramaniam saying in a concert that I attended, 'While the raga structure of Indian music is very simple, the treatment is not. Depending on your time availability a raga can be sung between 1 minute and several hours".  Let me take two examples - Bhaiya Na Daro, sang by Lataji for Madan Mohan. In both the charanams, the repetition adds so much beauty to the melody. When she sings 'Na Daro' , it is repeated with several nuances, each one making it different from the other. That's a Hindustani example. Raja does it in light form very well. Radha Azhaikiral from Therkathi Kallan. The phrase 'Radha Azhaikkiral' is repeated throughout the composition, in at least 6 different imitative forms, each of which is different from the first phrase. Carnatic pundits go on with their Neraval, which is imitation in technical terms.

  However, imitation in the WCM world has different forms.  I am sure even in Indian musical systems there are. However, there is no formal treatment I am aware of, for imitation, in ICM. In WCM, without a theme, you can start off a simple melody and have the melody repeated several times. This is called a cannon. You can have a melody being responded to by another melody - this is Call & Response.  Both Cannon and C&R have to follow harmony rules but it is not contrapuntal. For a fugue, you must have a baseline (theme) melody, which must be imitated under two conditions: 1) the imitation should be at a pitch different from the theme melody and 2) the imitation must be polyphonic. The imitation can be by the same or different instrument.

  Go back to my analysis and hear the 'A Fairy Tale' again.  You need to hear those phrases several times to understand how Raja achieves both pitch and melody variation in his imitation. When you focus on the foreground flute melody, you may not pay attention to the background harmony violins. Trust me, they do not play the same melody as the flute. I was about to call this as a Indian folk with a cannon treatment, till I heard it several times. I hope I am correct with my analysis. Only Raja can tell.

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  jaiganesh on Fri Sep 20, 2013 8:12 pm

ravinat wrote:
kiru wrote:Ravi, thanks again. much appreciated. This imitation/fugue thing seems to have a parallel in our own music, isn't it ? Maybe that is the reason IR is doing it even though it is 300 years old (?) Any thoughts .
Kiru

  Imitation is part of every musical system. Imitation is the secret sauce behind most melody construction and all classical systems - Carnatic/Hindustani have special constructs for this. I remember L.Subramaniam saying in a concert that I attended, 'While the raga structure of Indian music is very simple, the treatment is not. Depending on your time availability a raga can be sung between 1 minute and several hours".  Let me take two examples - Bhaiya Na Daro, sang by Lataji for Madan Mohan. In both the charanams, the repetition adds so much beauty to the melody. When she sings 'Na Daro' , it is repeated with several nuances, each one making it different from the other. That's a Hindustani example. Raja does it in light form very well. Radha Azhaikiral from Therkathi Kallan. The phrase 'Radha Azhaikkiral' is repeated throughout the composition, in at least 6 different imitative forms, each of which is different from the first phrase. Carnatic pundits go on with their Neraval, which is imitation in technical terms.

  However, imitation in the WCM world has different forms.  I am sure even in Indian musical systems there are. However, there is no formal treatment I am aware of, for imitation, in ICM. In WCM, without a theme, you can start off a simple melody and have the melody repeated several times. This is called a cannon. You can have a melody being responded to by another melody - this is Call & Response.  Both Cannon and C&R have to follow harmony rules but it is not contrapuntal. For a fugue, you must have a baseline (theme) melody, which must be imitated under two conditions: 1) the imitation should be at a pitch different from the theme melody and 2) the imitation must be polyphonic. The imitation can be by the same or different instrument.

  Go back to my analysis and hear the 'A Fairy Tale' again.  You need to hear those phrases several times to understand how Raja achieves both pitch and melody variation in his imitation. When you focus on the foreground flute melody, you may not pay attention to the background harmony violins. Trust me, they do not play the same melody as the flute. I was about to call this as a Indian folk with a cannon treatment, till I heard it several times. I hope I am correct with my analysis. Only Raja can tell.
Madhan can explain better how life's building blocks in DNA is just a weird repetition of CDAG proteins. It is the way they combine that creates the secret sauce of life (borrowing term from Ravi)..

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  kiru on Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:02 am

Ravi, next time you are in Bay Area dinner is on me  :-) I am sure, other Bay Area forummers also would join to host and felicitate you. Thank you.. Thank you.
People like you and Vicky are greatly increasing our knowledge of music, especially of IR's and our ability to enjoy/appreciate has increased ten fold.
These OA tracks will serve as a intro for our audience to the purely instrmental, western classical tradition.
After a long time, I and my wife listened to music together (of youtube !!!) and my wife was imitating all the instrumental sounds even before they played on all the 80s songs of IR. He has given a heavy dose of WC from that time on. Now, I think, I also have 'grown' enough to appreciate these in tracks like OA.
(BTW, I missed the point that the imitation has to be polyphonic earlier, that surely makes it very 'western')

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  crimson king on Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:50 pm

Ravi sir, I have another question on fugue and this time w.r.t Fairytale.   According to you, is a counteranswer written in inversion a must for fugue or is imitation in another pitch the only condition?  Sorry if you have already explained this earlier in this thread, but it is not clear.  Wiki mentions something about invertible counterpoint in the article on fugue but I am not able to infer whether that is a necessary element of fugue or an optional one.  If there is invertible counterpoint in Fairytale, could you please share the time stamp as I could not spot it.

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  fring151 on Sun Sep 22, 2013 1:46 am

I will let Ravinat answer that as I am far from qualified to - I just wanted to share an uber-cool youtube video going over the episodes in Bach's G minor fugue. Simply fabulous! What was Bach smoking? Smile 


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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  ravinat on Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:01 am

crimson king wrote:Ravi sir, I have another question on fugue and this time w.r.t Fairytale.   According to you, is a counteranswer written in inversion a must for fugue or is imitation in another pitch the only condition?  Sorry if you have already explained this earlier in this thread, but it is not clear.  Wiki mentions something about invertible counterpoint in the article on fugue but I am not able to infer whether that is a necessary element of fugue or an optional one.  If there is invertible counterpoint in Fairytale, could you please share the time stamp as I could not spot it.
 
ravinat wrote:
 For a fugue, you must have a baseline (theme) melody, which must be imitated under two conditions: 1) the imitation should be at a pitch different from the theme melody and 2) the imitation must be polyphonic. The imitation can be by the same or different instrument.
CK,

   Wiki is not necessarily a great source for all musical topics. I have had issues with several areas of my research with Wiki. Fugue is one of them. The Wiki definition does make it sound more complex than it is. To the best of my knowledge, I do not see any ICP in 'A Fairy Tale'.

   Some of my claims on the back to back symmetrical fugue can be argued as not fugue as the counter melody and pitch variance in the imitation is subtle. However, I came to that conclusion simply based on the markers Raja did with the two second cello/double bass notes. If you just want to do a back to back cannon, there is no need to put a marker in. You can treat all the 8 back to back melodies as a simple cannon. However, this is my theory. That's why I said, only Raja can confirm.


Here are the fugue parts for your convenience:

ravinat wrote:Fairy Tale in Detail
---------------------
 
0:01 to 0:38 secs : The first 9 seconds is a solo violin that plays a heart wrenching melody. The cellos play in the background in harmony. What's so great about this? Raja has done it in a thousand films. Observe what goes on between 10 and 18 secs. The same melody on a different pitch with the cellos doing the background harmony. In my understanding, this is melody imitation in harmony - or fugue. Between 18 and 27 seconds, the melody is again repeated at a third pitch with the cellos doing the backing harmony. Between  28 and 38 seconds, the foreground violins do the imitation of the same melody with the cellos doing the backing harmony. There is a minor variation in the imitation which adds beauty to the fugue. Fugue rules allow that. The is whole fugue segment is a stage of a fairy in my view. Vintage Raja! How on earth does he figure out the use of this 300 year old  technique to a modern 2013 film, that even the most capable Hollywood composers are afraid of? (For Carnatic pundits. it's like they going crazy when Raja chooses Sarasaangi for his SB experimentation!)Very Happy 
 
1:25 to 2:48 secs: The soothing flute part perhaps signifies a happy stage in a fairy's tale (to be confirmed with the visuals). A superficial look at this part will make you feel comfortable that Raja plays a folkish melody with an Indian touch. That is GROSS injustice to the genius. Let me explain what this man has done in those 83 seconds. He would have written this score faster than it would take you to read my description!  He divides this whole 83 seconds into 2 even part and one uneven part. The first even part is between 1:25 and 1:57 seconds. The second even part is between 2:02 and 2:36 seconds. Leave a second for a sustain and your math will tie up exactly. He takes the 32 seconds and divides them into four 8-second parts. For example, in the first even part, between 1:25 and 1:30, there is a reference flute melody (folkish). The backing harmony violins continue.  Between 1:31 and 1:42, the initial melody is imitated with a variance. Between 1:43 and 1:52, the second imitation of the same melody. Lastly, the third imitation plays between 1:53 and 1:57. This whole thing is a fugue unit (between 1:25 and 1:57, with three imitations and a main melody). Between 1:58 and 2:02, Raja uses a cello/double bass intervention and I was wondering why. He follows this with another fugue unit where he has cleverly taken the next 32 seconds to create another simple melody and 3 imitations. Between 2:02 and 2:10, you hear the main melody. Following this, you hear the first imitation between 2:11 and 2:19, the second imitation between 2:20 and 2:29 and the third imitation between 2:30 and 2:38. Now, this is two fugue units with equal number of imitations thrown back to back. Calling it a soothing flute melody would be a total understatement. Raja uses a similar double bass/cello intervention to put an end marker to the second fugue unit. The remaining time in this segment, between 2:42 and 2:48 is a finish with a simple melody that repeats itself twice. Now, why am I describing this in such detail. Back to back fugue units are very rare.  Perfectly symmetric back to back fugue units - please show me a composer after Bach, whose name does not start with I cheers 
 
  I wrote a post on Fugue on my blog which I strongly recommend you to read:
 
http://geniusraja.blogspot.ca/2011/05/fine-fugue-fete.html

   There is no song that demonstrates this technique like 'Manjal Veyyil' from Nandu. My recommendation is to hear the clip on my blog, where you can see this being done perfectly to the definition. When you come back to 'A Fairy Tale', you will have to hear the parts I have singled out here, several times to see the idea being applied in a subtle way. There is a chance of you not hearing the background harmony violins playing a different melody. Hear it several times, once to keep your attention on the flute and another set of passes to focus on the background violins.  If you find anything else, please report.

  Also, to Kiru's point about Vicky and me being good teachers Very Happy  Vicky is definitely one. I am definitely not qualified. In the fugue post on my blog, I left a number of tracks as assignment to the blog readers. For something that has been written in Mar 2011, there is not one reader who did any of those assignments. So much for a good teacher Embarassed

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  ravinat on Sun Sep 22, 2013 2:14 am

fring151 wrote:I will let Ravinat answer that as I am far from qualified to - I just wanted to share an uber-cool youtube video going over the episodes in Bach's G minor fugue. Simply fabulous! What was Bach smoking? Smile 

Fring

  The whole 3:49 was a fugue. You can quickly see that fugue for the heck of it can get pretty boring. It follows exactly the definition that I mentioned in my posts. A simple theme followed by several imitations set in a contrapuntal mode. The pitch variations are not so obvious when you hear it being played with an organ. However, with this example on piano, it becomes much easier to understand:



An important thing about the above video is the variations in the imitation which was not so obvious when you hear it with the organ. This is what I meant by melodic variations being permitted in a fugue as part of imitations.

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  fring151 on Sun Sep 22, 2013 3:03 am

Thanks Ravinat sir for the explanation. I agree fugue and counterpoint for the heck of it can start to sound somewhat academic and uninspired, but the G minor fugue to me is a complete work of art and trying to follow each melody line is incredibly intellectually stimulating. There is a sense of intrigue and foreboding in the way it starts, downright spookiness when the first imitation is played, the portions where I hear frenzied soprano notes juxtaposed against heavy bass notes are like the frantic cries of a desperate drug addict who fate is catching up with, and then ultimately redemption as the piece closes out. Eerie and sublime.

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  crimson king on Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:02 am

Thanks, Ravi sir. So I take it that invertible counterpoint is not a must for fugue and imitation in polyphony is the essential condition.   Yes, my doubt is indeed whether it is a cannon and not a fugue.  I will have to listen to it a few more times to observe the difference.

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  ravinat on Mon Sep 23, 2013 4:49 am

Somebody loves us all - technical analysis
-----------------------------------------------
0:01 to 1:03 - The harmony and violin arrangements remind us of the 'Marupadiyum' score. A bewitching melody however that is different from the Marupaidyum score. This melody is repeated in several places within this track. I particularly like the short high pitched violins as they emphasize the emotion significantly. Nice use of cellos and double basses.
1:04 to 1:07 - Silence that is IR typical
1:08 to 1:25 - A nice foreground piano with the harmony violins and cellos in the background. Not sure, why this is so short.
1:26 to 1:53 - The transition between the piano and the violins is for 5 seconds, and a very nice solo violin takes over.   Nice melancholy part with the harmony violins continuing in the background. The solo violin is for just 20 seconds but creates a lasting impact. The melody is a variation of the first one. 
1:54 to 1:56 - another brief silence
1:57 to 2:27 - The solo violin without any background harmony violins plays a heart wrenching melancholic melody. Reminds me of Yitzak Perlman's play for the Schindler's List. Not sure what the movie's situation is, but normally used in movies for very dark moments of the human side to show helplessness. This is one of the finest part of the whole BGM of OAK and the choice of the low notes for the solo violin shows the composer's ability to transport something visual to the viewer's heart.
2:28 to 3:30 - The solo violin melody is repeated beautifully by the foreground and background violins. Normally, the solo violin depicts a situation of an individual and the violins in harmony can portray the community. However, this type of score has been used to show the protagonist's state with a solo violin and the state of all related characters with the protagonist. This is guesswork at best.

Musically, this track is very appealing due to the melody and the arrangement. Unlike, 'A Fairy Tale' or 'Walking through Life and Death', this track is not packed with multiple techniques. While technically the other tracks are very appealing, melodically, this is the best track in the album.


Last edited by ravinat on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:31 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  Drunkenmunk on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:15 am

Ravi sir, thanks a lot. Your akku vEr ANi vEr view of each track is excellent.

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  ravinat on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:36 am

Here is Itzak playing the title score of Schindler's List for John Williams...


You can easily see why I compare Raja with only John Williams.

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  isaifan on Mon Sep 23, 2013 5:54 pm

While OA is predominantly WCM, there are some ICM elements sprinkled around, making it the IR genre.
Normally, students in a SouthICM (Carnatic) class begin and end their music practice singing the swaras Sa (low) Pa (mid) Sa (high), Sa (high) Pa (mid) Sa (low). Some of you may have noticed this already, the main melody in "Somebody loves us all" ends with Sa (high) Pa (mid) Sa (low). Observe at 0:57-0:59, 2:55-2:57 :)In fact, it ends with these notes at 3:25-3:30..like in a Carnatic music class..from the master.  noteworthy

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  app_engine on Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:39 pm

Some fun stuff

link courtesy Nerd on twitter Smile

lol!

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  fring151 on Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:13 am

Are these people paid to write these reviews? As in - is it part of their day job? It is one thing to post casual and poorly edited stuff on blogs or forums like we do, but if these clowns actually get paid by Indiaglitz (whatever that is) to write such fluff which wouldn't get pass marks in a high school music review essay, then wow! Must be real easy to find a job as a music reviewer these days!!

Random moron from Indiaglitz wrote:Violins and bass again, here is yet another quick tune that has no supporting beats, but maintains rhythm on its own.
Whattay mystery!!

Random moron from Indiaglitz wrote:
5. Grim Reape (I didn't remove the r)
Quite a scary title but intelligent use of air instruments. This track is a smart composition that is slightly macabre but scary at the least.
Ennamo solla vareenganu puriyudhu..Aana adhu ennanuthaan...

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  Drunkenmunk on Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:24 am

Fring,

That had several rofl moments.

"Typical of Isaignani, the opening track is high on strings. A quick melancholic and heavy tune, this has a fluid transition and rhythmic tingles."

Slight Vadivelu evoking there. "aambalai ki aambala touchu pannalaam. aanaa tichu pannapadaadhu."
These guys praise every song (right from GVP, Yuvan to Ghibran) and also call one of the tracks here in OAK as a song. They have an agenda to praise every fucking track/song in their immature way, fine. Theirs is a commercial site and praising every album/film endears them to every producer/music director/director. But what I don't fucking understand is they rate every damn album (including OAK) only 2-3.5 on a scale of 5. This after praising every frigging track without any objectivity. OAK got 3. KJ Ennum Nanbanin Vazhkai, a GVP album for Cheran got 3.5. Yuvan's Aarrambam got 3.5. They end it with saying Yuvan has hit a homerun. Really guys?

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Re: Onaayum Aattukkuttiyum (The wolf and the lamb) - Mysskin

Post  fring151 on Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:43 am

Drunkenmunk wrote:But what I don't fucking understand is they rate every damn album (including OAK) only 2-3.5 on a scale of 5. This after praising every frigging track without any objectivity.
rotfl2

adhAvdhu examiners romba strictu. Marks adhigamA pOtta  complacency and over-confidence vandhurum illaya pasanagalukku.

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