Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 1

Great posts and excellent points.

plum wrote:Melodiousya is the maximum critique these people can say about music, and that is why you see ordinary songs with a catchy melody being hailed in the same words as a classic. reNdukkum they can only say "melodious" because that is the limitation of their appreciation.

Well said, they could not go further than this to classify and distinguish a classic and a typical melody.

plum wrote:This is what he means by "nAn pOyi en isai ipdi apdinu solli avanaLai convince paNNanamAkkum? Isnt it their job to understand all this?"

I still don't understand how they select a film or music as best? First of all does the jury have capable and deserving members who can identify this. I could not even include directors like KB, BR or Balu Mahendra in the jury especially when they are selecting best film music, but definitely they are better than their northern counterparts. There should be members who are above them (someone like a subbudu who really know and values music and also some one who knows music in film context, again not just songs). I know it's difficult, but that's where lot of compromise happens and could not identify the best ones. Does Raja deserves only these 4 national awards for his enormous contributions? Should it not be atleast 10-15?

jaiganesh wrote: kalaignanai madhikkaradhu irukkattum, modhalla kalaikke madhippu illaye indha naatula..

Exactly! I think there is nothing called art nowadays, only money matters. Recent examples like Nandhalaala or ASK maadhiri music creations went to gutters because of these undeserved jury members. I agree with Dev D. There are around 16-17 songs in it, but I hardly listen to them except emotional athyachaar, even that became bore now. That's again my point to forecast the shelf life and longevity in these compositions which many ignore to see and just go by popularity at that time. Once you focus on longevity, atleast there a possibility for music composers to deliver substance like that.

Just to add, our Doordharshan days when they used to show that 2pm national award winning movies on Sundays. Most of the movies will appear boring if you look at superficially and many movies we will not even understand, but even as a kid when you sit to watch for around 10-15 minutes, you will not leave your seat. Those days at-least when choosing best film they were quite reasonable, but musically they have never raised their standards from those days till now to judge best film music. They still think it is just an accessory to any film (as that was the case those days), but they never understood after IR how it became an integral part of the film.

For the record, I dont think much of the 3 National Awards that IR got. They were all for classical-based movies, and it is the same kind of unthinking "classical means good" jury that adjudicated those awards. So, I cannot respect those awards.

adhE mAdhiri indha Songs-BGM dichotomy 80sla vandhirundhA, we could have claimed National Awards for songs for movies like Ninaivellam Nithya. Because if you see, no self-respecting jury member would have sat through the movie for evaluating as a movie and therefore they would never have considered it, But if a songs category had been there, hopefully, they would have just listened to it, and despite their ignorance, atleast the catchoiness would have given the songs an award.

adhanAla, the whole thing is a sham. As I keep repeating, enakku indha bodhi maram moment 1998-la nadandhadhu. Even the other fans will realise when a similar thing happens to their icons, and good work from them is ignored in favour of some Pritam or Vishal-Sekar copied songs....

Just for the record, I still find DevD songs very much listenable. It's unfair to weigh Amit by invoking IR

plum wrote:adhE mAdhiri indha Songs-BGM dichotomy 80sla vandhirundhA, we could have claimed National Awards for songs for movies like Ninaivellam Nithya.

BGM also. One of my most most favorites.

Bala (Karthik) wrote:Just for the record, I still find DevD songs very much listenable. It's unfair to weigh Amit by invoking IR

yaaru ippo listenable illainna? andha oru jivvu feeling illai. okok mudinju tholayattumnu forward panradhillai. avvalave.
ulla irundhu rasikka mudiyala. But avirai vechu comedy panravanga 200 words 400 words ezudhara alavukku onnum ulla sarakku illai maaplannu dhaan solren.

I think you should learn to ignore that 200words-400wores feller. The feller is just a super-NOVa(See what I did with the pun there? ) who wants to build a reputation as a all-music lover and cash in on that. Good business sense but I wouldn't trust his musical uLarals.

http://www.jeyamohan.in/?p=32153

Raja's encyclopaediac knowledge on the music along western ghats comes to the fore again. idhai epdi oru GV Prakash or even AR Rahman replicate paNNa mudiyin. Is it any wonder he is able to capture exactly the ethos of the place integrated into his music?

Ofcourse, Rahman catches the Punjabi ethos well integrated into his style in a way I dont think Raja can. basically avaru North IndianO oru vELai?

What surprises me though is Raja's ability to capture the Godavari ethos - that's far removed from his bachpan ki world and his youth ki world. Maybe, he did travel in Andhra also during his communist Paavalar podhukoottam days...

plum wrote:..
Ofcourse, Rahman catches the Punjabi ethos well integrated into his style in a way I dont think Raja can. basically avaru North IndianO oru vELai?

What surprises me though is Raja's ability to capture the Godavari ethos - that's far removed from his bachpan ki world and his youth ki world. Maybe, he did travel in Andhra also during his communist Paavalar podhukoottam days...

Are you a Punjabi ? I will accept your argument if you are a villager from Punjab. There are villagers (ok villupuram is not really a village, I guess) like me who think Raja captures the essence of the tamil soil
Actually, Raja is not a tamil. he is a south indian. when it comes to music, tamil is a new development ..kannada, tamil, telugu and malayalam are not necessarily different right . A bunch of tribes that have evolved and grown together and apart .. No wonder Raja can be one among any of these people.

I am not Punjabi villager, Kiru . You are right, he catches the ethos of the partying, bollywood Punjabi ethos very well. Corrected.

On this nativity thing, I have a slightly different opinion

While IR possibly "conformed" to the nativity of KA/AP/KL, he didn't do the same in TN. Though he started off on a "conformance" mode for certain kinds (KVMish-MSVish scores for film music in initial movies), he went radical on the folk side right from day 1 and went radical on filmi score side within a few years.

In other words, while IR had a thorough grip on the existing psyche of TN-ers, he started to STEER the trend & musical sensibilities of TN-ers, typically AWAY from their erstwhile comfort zone. (I can't say for sure if had done the same to KA-KL-AP. For that matter, I would even say, he didn't do much trend-setting in KL).

In TN, his primary contribution was not conformance to sensibilities but redefining them

(Unfortunately, in a way, ARR also did such "redefining" - mostly in line with popular music in the west, promptly followed by his successors. Result? TN-ers are losing their identity now)

@Plum - :-)
@app - re: nativity - tamil man vaasanai in IR songs - Maybe he felt really comfortable in tamil, he could experiment, whereas in other languages, if I am not mistaken, he also uses the local rhythm instruments (vs say a guitar in mEgam karukkaiyile thEgam kulirudhai)

Also, "redefining" should be ok by anybody whether IR or ARR. All we are looking for is the total music content. Actually, some Rahman fans will tell you that singers have more freedom/space in Rahman's songs which is how indian music (monophonic) is.

RE: identity - it is a totally evolving concept. Europeans now might refer to them as EU citizen vs country name earlier. I like the tamil language but we can only do our part to keeping it alive but who knows how it will fare against a global language like English. (BTW, app - your writings in tamil are awesome, Love it)

ஊக்குவிப்புக்கு மிக்க நன்றி, கிரு!

பல வருடங்களுக்கு அப்புறம் (சொல்லப்போனால் 1985-க்குப்பிறகு) "கட்டுரை" எழுதுவதால், படிக்கும்போது எனக்கே சில சமயம் வேடிக்கையாக இருக்கிறது. என்றாலும் விடாப்பிடியாக முயற்சி நடக்கிறது என்றாவது ஒரு நாள் எல்லோருக்கும் ஏற்புடைய தரத்துக்கு வந்துவிடும் என்ற நம்பிக்கை இருக்கிறது.

Venkat Prabhu talking about how certain MDs feel about Raaja. Thaman was a surprise to me. I always thought he is a Rahmantard. And Vijay Anthonykku cut out Skip to 11:17

app_engine wrote:On this nativity thing, I have a slightly different opinion

While IR possibly "conformed" to the nativity of KA/AP/KL, he didn't do the same in TN. Though he started off on a "conformance" mode for certain kinds (KVMish-MSVish scores for film music in initial movies), he went radical on the folk side right from day 1 and went radical on filmi score side within a few years.

In other words, while IR had a thorough grip on the existing psyche of TN-ers, he started to STEER the trend & musical sensibilities of TN-ers, typically AWAY from their erstwhile comfort zone. (I can't say for sure if had done the same to KA-KL-AP. For that matter, I would even say, he didn't do much trend-setting in KL).

In TN, his primary contribution was not conformance to sensibilities but redefining them

(Unfortunately, in a way, ARR also did such "redefining" - mostly in line with popular music in the west, promptly followed by his successors. Result? TN-ers are losing their identity now)

IMO, it is very hard to pinpoint how Raja arrives at the authenticity of native feel in his songs. He is not "converting" a Raga or WCM or other types of music to South Indian nativity. I believe he is actually hearing/seeing South Indian nativity in Ragas and WCM. Listen to him explain how he heard Bach and related it to Indian music. @ 3:07 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHd-uQz7j44&feature=player_detailpage#t=188s Most composers in the west are adapting Indian/Asian music but not really seeing it's deep connection to their own music. They say Debussy saw/heard Indonesian Gamelan music and realized WCM could be presented differently and wrote "Claire de lune". Early Jazz artists saw Jazz music/rhythm in marching band music.

In case of Raja, I actually think he just "feels" such connections with no clear logical explanation. He must be very deeply steeped in Indian music to such an extent that he sees Indian music or South Indian music in everything he hears. Going by his scores in the last decade, he may be seeing WCM in Indian ragas and music. In a way, he is only doing one type of the music, that is South Indian music. I believe this is reason even WCM music aficionado from west cannot relate to Raja's WCM music as much, because it is in a way, still in South Indian music paradigm!

SenthilVinu wrote:.. In a way, he is only doing one type of the music, that is South Indian music. I believe this is reason even WCM music aficionado from west cannot relate to Raja's WCM music as much, because it is in a way, still in South Indian music paradigm!

Cannot agree more with you my dear friend.. I have mentioned this before. Here is my theory - he is taking the improvization parts in indian singing and gives it to the orchestra. For eg. the end part of a line (brighas ?) are never sung by a singer in IR's music, it is done by flute or violin. I wish I had time to come up with examples to prove this. Maybe, we can all support somebody doing research (Phd) in music financially, if they take up a topic like this.
Re: Bach and Thiagaraja - there's got to be somethng common in music between all races and cultures. Otherwise, the same song could not be a hit in all parts of the world. Just so happens IR sees it very easily.
BTW, why did you say "even WCM music aficionado from west cannot relate to Raja's WCM music as much, because it is in a way, still in South Indian music paradigm! " ? Even though i suspect this might be true too (need Madhan to weigh in on this).

kiru wrote:

SenthilVinu wrote:.. In a way, he is only doing one type of the music, that is South Indian music. I believe this is reason even WCM music aficionado from west cannot relate to Raja's WCM music as much, because it is in a way, still in South Indian music paradigm!

Cannot agree more with you my dear friend.. I have mentioned this before. Here is my theory - he is taking the improvization parts in indian singing and gives it to the orchestra. For eg. the end part of a line (brighas ?) are never sung by a singer in IR's music, it is done by flute or violin. I wish I had time to come up with examples to prove this. Maybe, we can all support somebody doing research (Phd) in music financially, if they take up a topic like this.
Re: Bach and Thiagaraja - there's got to be somethng common in music between all races and cultures. Otherwise, the same song could not be a hit in all parts of the world. Just so happens IR sees it very easily.
BTW, why did you say "even WCM music aficionado from west cannot relate to Raja's WCM music as much, because it is in a way, still in South Indian music paradigm! " ? Even though i suspect this might be true too (need Madhan to weigh in on this).

was listening to public radio and they were discussing moods in bach music - e-minor and b minor scales , scale of death etc.
There is a performer Andras Schiff who ties these scales to colors. He literally visualizes every scale in a virtual photochromatic spectrum.
I was struck by how Raaja himself might have had a similar thought when he was tuning "Thendral vandhu theendum bodhu" or any of the BGM pieces where the event's mood on screen went automatically to the spectrum of appropriate color. We need to dig deeper here...
Andras Schiff - Bach Reconsidered

jaiganesh wrote:
was listening to public radio and they were discussing moods in bach music - e-minor and b minor scales , scale of death etc.
There is a performer Andras Schiff who ties these scales to colors. He literally visualizes every scale in a virtual photochromatic spectrum.
I was struck by how Raaja himself might have had a similar thought when he was tuning "Thendral vandhu theendum bodhu" or any of the BGM pieces where the event's mood on screen went automatically to the spectrum of appropriate color. We need to dig deeper here...
Andras Schiff - Bach Reconsidered

Jaiganesh, Awesome! I luved it. thanks for sharing. I'm going to listen to it again.

Music to color synesthesia is a very common phenomenon. According to wikipedia it is called "chromesthesia". Lot of singers talk about notes and tones in terms of color. I'd fall in this category, as sounds always evokes colors and images in my mind. Most ppl have this synesthesia.

I believe Raja could also have reverse-chromesthesia. That is, he hears sounds and music when he sees colors and images. Probably one of the reason, his BGM's are so good. Just like MSV could read poetry and see the meter and the music in it. Raja could see pictures, visual images and see the music in it.

Some of these synesthesia are innate and some are developed by practicing what you already have.

Here's a Tedtalk on music generated from a painting done by a 6 year old kid. This blew my mind when I saw it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mf5otGNbkuc&feature=player_detailpage#t=797s

PS:
Here's Alan watts singing like a Bach's piece based on a plant's visual structure and pattern @7:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei9iLjNpFmA&feature=player_detailpage#t=451s

இந்த ஸ்பீச் எப்போ நடந்தது?

Mani Ratnam made some open talk during the launch of the book ‘Conversation with Mani Ratnam’, in Chennai recently.

Heaping laurels on Ilayaraja, he said, ‘Ilayaraja is a genius; when I went to him for my first film, I was a nobody. I just went up to him and asked if he’d score music for my movie, and he agreed. From that time, he has given life to my projects through his music.’

Vairamuthu in vikatan kELvi-badhil:

''எழுத்தாளர் ஜெயகாந்தனிடம் நீங்கள் ரசிப்பது?''

''அவரது அறச் சீற்றம்.

ஒரு நாள் காலையில் என் வீட்டுத் தொலைபேசி ஒலித்தது.
'நான் ஜெயகாந்தன் பேசுகிறேன்.’
'வணக்கம்; வைரமுத்து பேசுகிறேன்.’
'என் மகள் திருமண வரவேற்புக்கு உங்கள் மண்டபம் தேவைப்படுகிறது.’
'அது உங்கள் மண்டபம்; எடுத்துக்கொள்ளுங்கள்.’

'பொன்மணி மாளிகை’ பெயரிட்டுத் திருமண அழைப்பிதழ் அச்சிட்டவர், ஓர் இசையமைப்பாளரைச் சந்தித்து அழைப்பிதழ் தந்தாராம்.
'கட்டாயம் வருகிறேன்’ என்ற உறுதிமொழி தந்து அழைப்பிதழைப் பிரித்த இசையமைப்பாளர், திருமண மண்டபத்தின் பெயரைப் பார்த்ததும் திகைத்துப்போனாராம். 'நான் அங்கு வர முடியாதே’ என்று நெளிந்தாராம்.
விசுக்கென்று எழுந்து வாசல் வரை சென்ற ஜெயகாந்தன் விறுவிறுவென்று திரும்பிவந்து, 'நீதான் திருமணத்திற்கு வரப்போவதில்லையே! உனக்கெதற்கு அழைப்பிதழ்?’ என்று அழைப்பிதழைப் பறித்துக்கொண்டு வெளியேறிவிட்டாராம்.

இந்தச் சம்பவத்தை ஒரு நண்பரின் வாய்மொழியாக அறிந்தேன்.
கண்ணதாசன் வரியைப் பொருத்தி ஜெயகாந்தனை நினைத்துக்கொண்டேன்.
சிங்கத்தின் கால்கள் பழுதுபட்டாலும்
சீற்றம் குறைவதுண்டோ?’ ''

And look at what this blogger calls this as ("Appu to IR" it seems):
http://www.blog.beingmohandoss.com/2012/12/blog-post_6.html

Now, whatever IR had supposedly done was in his home.

And it was purely a matter of personal choice / preference.

And Jayakanthan's grabbing back the invitation is also a personal decision. However, where is the question of 'aRam' here? Calling that as 'aRachcheetram' is obviously nonsense. In addition, writing this personal incident as a "kisu-kisu" shows his "class".

ayyO pAvam Kannadasan & Sivaji - ivanga pAttu edhukkellAm abuse paNRanga

HA ha ha humility icon Diamond Pearl

vanmam manakrooram ellAm epdi veLila varudhu pArthIngaLA?

As I said with SPB, romba nALaikku imagekkAga nadikka mudiyAdhu
(no hard feelings on SPB - but fact is he himself admitted that the humility pretence was too painful to keep up..)

DHARMA VELLUM. uNmai veLi vandhE theerum. ivaragaLin mana kroorangaL veLippadavE seyyum - AnAl namadhu Anal makkaLukku adhaiyellAm purindhu koLLa aRivu thiRan irukkAdhu..

More from Jayamohan

கேளிக்கைத்தளத்தில் எப்போதும் திறமைகள் வந்துகொண்டே இருக்கும். ஏனென்றால் அது ஒரு தொழில். மிகப்பெரிய லாபம் உடையது. சமூகமுக்கியத்துவம் கிடைப்பது. ஆகவே அதனுள் நுழையப் பல்வேறு திறமைகள் முட்டிமோதிக்கொண்டிருக்கின்றன. வாய்ப்பு பெறுபவர்கள் நூற்றுக்கொருவர். வெற்றிபெறுபவர்கள் அவர்களில் நூற்றுக்கொருவர். ஆகவே கேளிக்கைக் கலைத்துறையில் உள்ள சாதனையாளர்களின் பட்டியல் எப்போதும் நீளமானதாகவே இருக்கும்.

idhukku dhAn oorula nalu padichavan vENumgaRAdhu - idhaiyE evLo clumsyA nammaLum sollikittirundhirukkOm. sOkkA sonnAn pArunga catch my point-nu!

Actually, the Jeyakanthan invitation thingy is another testimonial for IR's nErmai

Everyone knows how much he adores Jeyakanthan. Despite that, he hadn't considered attending a function in an "enemy" place He is very clear about that - that is sticking to his own policy / guidelines (whether right or wrong).

Also, IR could have simply avoided going there without telling the inviter, but was straightforward in letting the inviter know!

ippadi veLippadaiyAna manidharkaL ulagaththil kuRaivu!

namba vaiththuk kazhuththaRukkum ulakaththil, nEradiyAka solli viduvathan moolam, IR allavA ingE uyarndhu niRkiRAr?

This is a pandora box - but idhu namma area adhanAla dhairyamA open paNdrEN.

andha forumla geno talks about how VM's business interests hurt eelam tamils even as he pays lip service to them. indha mAdhiri pOli manidhargaL ellAm nallavargaL endru tamizh kooRum nallulagaththil vaLaiya varugiRArgaL.

VM-ai poRuththa varaiyil, his nermai can be seen in his flirting with the powerful and famous and bending to them - kalanidhi maran agattum, munnAL CM Agattum. innAL CM doesnt harass opposite campers - apdi irundhA poes gardenla saraNAgavum thayangi irukka mAttAn indha vadugapatti veeran!

Nice posts Plum and App. I never expected Vairamuthu will broadcast their personal things to the world. First of all how did he know about it? Seems like he was always waiting to hear something about IR to broadcast. In a way he spit on himself and thus by creating another opportunity for us to learn more about IR's honesty and integrity. As plum expressed, it also shows his ugly face more and more.

am here - aajar !

sorry - I have been travelling and busy last one month - got to see the PMs only this morning - thanks to Jai for repeated emails - I have registered with this forum this morning

can you tell me the nature of the problem with regarding IR related comments or IRFans in the original forum ?

also some important items to share:

1. I have initiated contact with some very important traditional jazz bands in the city of New Orleans - I was there for a 3 day conference (on gravitational and space biology), and spent the weekend, visiting bands and local musicians - will take time, but am hopeful of something coming out of it.

2.some of the jazz bands were very warm and receptive and I thanked them profoundly - spending 30 min in one of their offices, I explained abt my passion for IR's music and that am NOT his agent of anything whatsoever, am a microbiologist/ evolutionary biologist with an avid interest in music thats all.

3. to explain further abt IR's genius, i referred to the examples of the crossover jazz legend, Ray Charles - and that IR is India's Ray Charles crossover with the Beatles, the Pink Floyd and Bach and much more - the small group listening to me had their eyebrows raised at the mention of Ray Charles, and their eyes got wider with 'beatles' and by the time i finished explaining IR's prowess, they were truely intrigued, if not fascinated!

4. gave NEPV CD (thanks to Sureshs65 and Aravind Mano both of whom sent me CDs), and in exchange they gave me the CDs of an upcoming creative jazz artist - I plan on sending these CDs to IR (needless to say, all credit goes to Suresh and Aravind!)

5.the goal is next year's Jazz Festival in NOLA, and maybe IR can do a
show there - sounds a bit far-fetched now, but fingers crossed please.


6. I met quite a few painters in the french quarter area - they hail from NOLA as well as other countries and have chosen NOLA coz they find the local music inspiring! that got me interested - and I gathered around a small group of independent painting artists and gave them a self-made flyer on IR (many of them incredibly talented artists, one of them is color blind and still does impromptu art work and he was hooked to the second interlude of 'saayndhu saayndhu' from NEPV and is now listening to IR on youtube to get inspired for his artwork!!)

7.I stumbled into an art gallery of an independent artist who uses musical motifs for his art work - a kindof dialog between art and music! - and the curator gladly took an IR flyer and immediately faxed the same to the artist (who lives in the prominent New York Brooklyn artsy area).

before Christmas holidays begin, am hoping to get the NEPV CD into the offices of John Williams as well as the docu-film-maker Ken burns - former is the renowned composer aka IR of Hollywood, and the latter is a historian well-versed with musical genres.

doing what little I can

but why did IR turn out 'marandhaen mannithhaen' right after NEPV ? IR's genius is bizarre indeed!

PS: https://2img.net/r/ihimg/photo/my-images/827/nola.jpg/ - with three artists from the Louisiana Philharmonic who were playing (practising) in a food court!