Anything about IR found on the net - Vol 4

Sakalakala Vallavar wrote:https://www.facebook.com/notes/srinivasan-r/a-technical-guide-to-enter-the-dilapidated-palace-of-a-musical-emperor/1120360894641308

இந்த கட்டுரை MSV பற்றியது தான் என்றாலு 1) சில இடங்களில் ராஜா பேர் வருகிறது 2) இதில் MSV பற்றி சொல்லப்பட்டிருக்கும் விஷயங்கள் நியாயமாக ராஜாவுக்கு த்தான் பொருந்தும் என எனக்கு தோன்றுவது

Ravinat, App engine and other experts, request you all to discuss each line of this writeup and evaluvate, thanks

SKV

   Disclaimer: I have immense respect for MSV and his contribution. However, whatever I say here must not be viewed as something that shows disrespect to MSV, but these are criticisms of the writer's view that you asked me to evaluate.

  I have a hard time reading English written in Tamil. There was a line that says that MSV is a pioneer of Tamil Fusion Music. Nothing can be farther from the truth. While MSV's greatest contribution was to free film music from deep Carnatic roots and make it lighter, fusion is a stretch. Fusion became a true trend only after Raja and even today, most of the composers do not understand fusion. I went on record making fun of Sudha Raghunathan for her fusion attempt as she has not understood the dark side (WCM). While most popular views are that Raja does fusion music, I am completely with Raja, that he has gone beyond that. Raja's music has Western inside his ICM and ICM inside his western - go figure that out (I need at least 10 years of focused research to figure this one alone). Just because MSV has created some Arabic , western , jazzy tunes, does not make him, nor several others who make that claim as, 'fusion' artists. Raja is the only 'Diffusion' artist we ever had! That's why I call him the musical chip maker. He dopes one element into the other. I have said enough about this, so will not repeat myself here. The rest of the crowd is still trying to solder the different musical systems.

 According to this writer, we have got poor sources such as Carnatic music and film music and no other outlet. While this has been true till recently, (democratization of technology) Carnatic is a great enough resource, if you are creative enough. There is absolutely no mention of folk in what I read and Raja has done quite well using just a few sources. He added WCM to his source (though he has used several other genres in his diffusion process, they are not mainstream sources in his output) and look at what he accomplished with just two additional sources - folk and WCM. 

I must totally admit one thing - the writer's humor - I broke down laughing at the clip of the TMS song - I do not have to let this forum run wild in their imagination of how this would compare with Ilamai Itho Itho.

In the 70s, MSV had a great hit song - Vanakkam Pala Murai Sonnaen - You have to hear the orchestration of this song to see how badly it was done. Having a trambone/sax/trumpet section alone does not make it great orchestration. I want folks to listen to 'Vaanam Keezhe Vandhalenna' by Raja - that is true orchestration excellence. You can write a book on it.  There is only one composer who could beat the orchestration of this song (I called it the first magnum opus of Raja) - Ilayaraja. He constantly comes back and ends up beating his previous achievement. He is his only true competition musically.

It is sad that we still have arguments on orchestration and why some folks still have doubts in their mind.

One thing we need to react, however, is this nonsense of blaming us for "not going prior to IR". Such blanket statements are to be condemned!
(Not exactly this one guy, many MSVF's often throw this at us).

If anything, a very good percentage of HCIRF's are very familiar with majority of MSV/KVM songs. Not just that, possibly of their predecessors also. Also of the music done by a ton of stalwarts from other language fields of the pre-IR period. 

Especially those early IRF's from 70's - who had to get into a ton of verbal arguments with older-TFM fans, before the existence of tfmpage.com kind of places on the internet

Sometimes better than even a number of so-called-MSV-fans. As a regular at tfmpage, hub, dhool and even at msvtimes.com for almost 2 decades, I can very confidently say this - as an objective observer!
(One simple example - most idiotic MSVFs claim that the mellisai mannar had done >1000 movies. Ask them to give the list. அதிலேயே அவங்க குட்டு வெளுத்து விடும்.)

Other than pure hatred for what IR has achieved MUSICALLY in the last four decades (and still continuing to achieve), these fellows have nothing solid against him or his fans. 

மனநோய் பீடிப்பு

ravinat wrote:
In the 70s, MSV had a great hit song - Vanakkam Pala Murai Sonnaen - You have to hear the orchestration of this song to see how badly it was done. Having a trambone/sax/trumpet section alone does not make it great orchestration.

To be fair, possibly that was all that an average orch. person such as Joseph Krishna could have come up with (as assistant to MSV).



This person had been a regular during 70's taking care of orch for MSV (I've mentioned him in a number of posts in the pre-IR-SPB thread in the music miscellany forum).

Just for record, IR himself had mentioned about Joseph Krishna respectfully on occasions. (Well, he has even talked good about Shankar-Ganesh )

So, let us not dismiss these names as "may be just arrangers" or some "edu-pidi-assistants". They had done so much of work for the album / movie that their names had been either shared in the same line with MSV himself (V-R / MSV-IR kinds) or like the screen shot above, as "udhavi".

Means, their contribution was solid in the music department (and not just arrangement / logistics) and IR didn't need one for majority of his albums / movies. That is, even though he had been more prolific than most composers / MDs of the world

They say one should never argue with an idiot because he will reduce you to your level whereupon he will conquer you since idiocy is HIS forte.  I have not read the article and am only reacting to app/Ravi's interpretations of it.  But it strikes me as incredibly reductive to say merely introducing Arabic or cabaret style instrumentation amounts to fusion.  If that be the case, there was fusion in Hindi film music since the 1950s. MSV might have the distinction of being the first one in TFM to do that but that's not such an earth shattering distinction when you consider that composers on both sides of the Vindhyas were well aware of what was going on in the other and were influenced by each other.  Hindi guys much less by MSV than the other way round, granted.  IR didn't just introduce a likeness to cabaret or stuff like that.  He adopted the authentic vocabulary of Western music in different genres, not just WCM but also jazz rock (as I have pointed out before w.r.t the Nayagan Nasser entry BGM) and blended it seamlessly with the vocabulary of Tamil music, including Carnatic.  Only a dunce would not understand why this is unprecedented (but apparently their numbers are many  ).  It is not that I am making this claim because I am an IR fan (which is the common argument of ARR fans or even apparently MSV fans).  I became a huge IR fan after 10 or so years of being familiar with his work BECAUSE I realised that what he had done was unprecedented and unbelievable at so many levels. At this point, I was already familiar with many of MSV's hits with or without TKR and of course had grown up listening to ARR's music. No musical judgment can be objective but I would at least argue that my judgment was non partisan, i.e, not influenced by having prior favourable views about one or the other composer from the trio.

thanks all for the superb replies! posted the link here only to get these meaningful replies from you all!

Iam not against MSV or his ardent fans. Just that for whatever they say, they shud give crystal clear proof like how raja fans have been doing for years.

சட்டியில் என்ன இருக்கோ அது அகப்பையில் வரப்போகுது! வெறும் நுரை பொங்கினா எப்டி?!

One of the irritating aspects of these self proclaimed experts is the sudden shift to 'sound quality' in their arguments. In my view, this has no place in a discussion on music. They bring this unnecessary color to the discussion so that they can bring up Rahman. With that wrench thrown into the discussion, you can be viewed as an expert on all generations of popular music - it is easy to see through this veil.

It is akin to a director's claim to fame by stating that his movie has gone digital from film. Though I am a great technology fan, and wrote a number of articles on James Cameron's Avatar's 3-d animation technology, he came out not so great as a story teller in that film. To Indians, such stories are as old as time, and James did fail in coming out with an original story. When I view KD, all kudos to Manikandan as a director as he has not only used technology (his brilliant cityscape shots) very well, but explored story telling in a completely unorthodox way. Technology is secondary for a director. 

For a music composer, technology or 'sound quality' is secondary. However, it becomes a primary factor for these experts so that they can drag Rahman into the conversation.

ரான் யோஹான் - எங்க இருந்து இப்படிக்கிளம்பி வர்றானுங்க?

http://cinema.dinamalar.com/tamil-news/55130/cinema/Kollywood/i-want-to-compose-music-for-different-types-of-movies-ron-yohaan.htm

ஒரு  இசையமைப்பாளரே இப்படி "இளையாராஜா பண்ணும்போது டிஜிட்டல் வரவில்லை" என்று உளறினால் சராசரி ரசிகர்கள் விதவிதமாக உளறுவதில் என்ன வியப்பு இருக்கிறது?

While the standard பொற்காலம் uLaral is part of this news report, one thing to be noted here is that IR took only one day to compose 7 songs of that wonder of an album called 'kAdhal Oviyam', as per VM :

http://cinema.dinamalar.com/hindi-news/55090/cinema/Bollywood/Vairamuthu-feels-about-music-directors.htm

p.s. YSR continues to work with VM and is part of this press meet

app_engine wrote:ரான் யோஹான் - எங்க இருந்து இப்படிக்கிளம்பி வர்றானுங்க?

http://cinema.dinamalar.com/tamil-news/55130/cinema/Kollywood/i-want-to-compose-music-for-different-types-of-movies-ron-yohaan.htm

ஒரு  இசையமைப்பாளரே இப்படி "இளையாராஜா பண்ணும்போது டிஜிட்டல் வரவில்லை" என்று உளறினால் சராசரி ரசிகர்கள் விதவிதமாக உளறுவதில் என்ன வியப்பு இருக்கிறது?

This guy says - only when there is a new wave of technology, a composer can create something new - God save us from these clowns 

I think I will be supportive of robots composing music if the alternative is such clowns. Sorry for the rant, but couldn't help it.

MGR thuNukkugaL - includes one (thuNukku # 70) about the abandoned project "உன்னை விட மாட்டேன்" for which IR got signed up:

http://www.vikatan.com/news/india/77974-100-interesting-facts-about-mgr.art

I still remember the first page headline in dhinathanthi about this movie, whose "thodakka vizhA" was as usual with pAdal padhivu. (IIRC, there was picture of IR).

Unfortunately, the music album too didn't come out

ravinat wrote:

   Disclaimer: I have immense respect for MSV and his contribution. However, whatever I say here must not be viewed as something that shows disrespect to MSV, but these are criticisms of the writer's view that you asked me to evaluate.

  I have a hard time reading English written in Tamil. There was a line that says that MSV is a pioneer of Tamil Fusion Music. Nothing can be farther from the truth. While MSV's greatest contribution was to free film music from deep Carnatic roots and make it lighter, fusion is a stretch. Fusion became a true trend only after Raja and even today, most of the composers do not understand fusion. I went on record making fun of Sudha Raghunathan for her fusion attempt as she has not understood the dark side (WCM). While most popular views are that Raja does fusion music, I am completely with Raja, that he has gone beyond that. Raja's music has Western inside his ICM and ICM inside his western - go figure that out (I need at least 10 years of focused research to figure this one alone). Just because MSV has created some Arabic , western , jazzy tunes, does not make him, nor several others who make that claim as, 'fusion' artists. Raja is the only 'Diffusion' artist we ever had! That's why I call him the musical chip maker. He dopes one element into the other. I have said enough about this, so will not repeat myself here. The rest of the crowd is still trying to solder the different musical systems.

 According to this writer, we have got poor sources such as Carnatic music and film music and no other outlet. While this has been true till recently, (democratization of technology) Carnatic is a great enough resource, if you are creative enough. There is absolutely no mention of folk in what I read and Raja has done quite well using just a few sources. He added WCM to his source (though he has used several other genres in his diffusion process, they are not mainstream sources in his output) and look at what he accomplished with just two additional sources - folk and WCM. 

I must totally admit one thing - the writer's humor - I broke down laughing at the clip of the TMS song - I do not have to let this forum run wild in their imagination of how this would compare with Ilamai Itho Itho.

In the 70s, MSV had a great hit song - Vanakkam Pala Murai Sonnaen - You have to hear the orchestration of this song to see how badly it was done. Having a trambone/sax/trumpet section alone does not make it great orchestration. I want folks to listen to 'Vaanam Keezhe Vandhalenna' by Raja - that is true orchestration excellence. You can write a book on it.  There is only one composer who could beat the orchestration of this song (I called it the first magnum opus of Raja) - Ilayaraja. He constantly comes back and ends up beating his previous achievement. He is his only true competition musically.

It is sad that we still have arguments on orchestration and why some folks still have doubts in their mind.

ravinat, wonderfully put, on how IR's fusion is unique/different from the "so called fusion" of the rest . Few days back in Coimbatore, had an opportunity to interact with the happening Lotus lyricist and few friends around were lauding her work in the recent ARR number "rAsALi" from Gautam's movie AYM. I have no reservations about  admitting that "rAsALi" is indeed such a captivating /ear pleasing number sung well despite lots of voice processing done by ARR. But I had to squirm with discomfort when few of our friends went overboard on praising the fusion magic created by ARR . They were referring to the sudden popping of the Sriragam navavarnam swaras in the interludes played in violin, the inconsequential "ninnu kOri" portion which was another joint. IMO, it had no coherence with the song sequence. It seemed like ARR wanted to prove how "cool carnatic" he also could get when the situation itself does not demand such a demonstration. it did not end with these. Coming to the charanam, its again a blatant reuse of the sandhams of the ArunagirinAdhar song "muthai thiru" in Dhesh ragam. It is apparent that only the pallavi is ARR's creation. The rest of the 3 decorative set pieces are assembled from his pet "K" school project work.
IdhellAm "world class" fusion appidinnu sollindu oru gumbalE alaiyardhu.What do I say of IR's seamless , countless fusions ?

 கங்கை அமரன் உருப்படியாகக் கொஞ்சம் எழுதி இருக்கிறார்

இவர்களுக்குப் பிறகு எம்.எஸ்.வி. வருகிறார். அவர் ‘மெல்லிசை மன்னராக’ விளங்கியதற்கான காரணத்தைப் பாருங்கள். மிகத் தீர்க்கமாக இருந்த சங்கீதத்தை எளிதாகப் பாடுவதற்காகத் திரையில் அதை இலகுவாக்கினார். ஒலிகளை நுட்பமாகக் கையாளத் தொடங்கினார். மேலும் அவரிடம் இந்தி, இந்துஸ்தானி இசையின் தாக்கம் இருந்தது. அப்படிப்பட்டவர் துள்ளலான கிண்டல், கேலிப் பாடல்களையும் காதல் பாடல்களையும் அவற்றின் தாக்கத்தோடு இசையமைத்தார். அவற்றில் தமிழ் நாட்டுப்புற இசையின் வாசனை சுத்தமாக இல்லை என்றே சொல்லிவிடலாம்.

I've been telling this for quite a while - Please refer to the music miscellany section where I started a thread about first half of 70's lyrics...it was too boring a topic / scan that I didn't continue but whatever data I scanned thru clearly showed a pattern that both KD and Vaali who dominated in 70's didn't care for TN folk at all. Add MSV to them, the leading TF MD for that period!

What is new in this article is GA telling that EVEN ENNADI RAKKAMMA IS NOT A MSV ORIGINAL!

WOW ! I've never heard of that before!

Of course, there is some "credit-stealing" from IR that he had inputs from his mom and other folk originals. That is OK, but for IR, majority in TN would have never heard them anyways - thankfully he brought them into light! Interestingly, he didn't bring them raw - in which case he could have been a failure, taking along with him that genre   It was his genius of marrying WCM  and terrific orchestration to TN folk that made him, as well as the genre, so popular!

Another good thing that GA brings out is why gAnA shouldn't be unnecessarily bracketed with folk, thereby getting an undeserved superior status. 
(Me not a fan of gAnA - it has very limited appeal IMO and is boring / monotonous).

Chinnapponnu acknowledging rAsA

நாட்டுப்புற இசை என்பது மக்கள் அளவில் இருந்ததே தவிர அதற்கென ஓர் அந்தஸ்து கிடைக்காமல் இருந்தது.இளையராஜாவின் நுழைவுக்குப் பிறகுதான் திரைப்படங்களில் நாட்டுப்புற இசை பயன்படுத்தப்பட்டு பட்டிதொட்டியெங்கும் கொண்டு செல்லப்பட்டது. நாட்டுப்புற இசை மீதான பரவலான கவனம் ஏற்பட்டதற்கு இளையராஜா மிக முக்கியக் காரணம். 

Yet another annakkiLi reminiscence

தமிழ் சினிமாவின் முக்கியமான படங்களில் ஒன்று அன்னக்கிளி

Looks like BR got into trouble because of some "uLaRal" in ilangai

என் படத்தை நான் கண்ண மூடிக்கிட்டு உட்கார்ந்து கேட்டா என்னால தெளிவா இன்னைக்கும் சீன் பை சீன் சொல்ல முடியும். ஏன்னா இளையராஜாவோட ரீரெக்கார்டிங்

ராசாவும் திருக்குறளும் :
https://ilayaraja.forumms.net/t118p875-844#23632

IR, as usual with sharp understanding of the students' stir on #jallikkattu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jrCXfPjzoA



One wonders how this man gets this kind of insight despite not spending a lot of time with newspapers or other media!

mahAnadhi Shobhana

மகாநதி'யில் நடித்த அனுபவம்5 வயது முதலே சங்கீதம் கற்றேன். 12 வயதில் 'மகாநதி'யில் நடித்ததின் பலன் கோடிக்கணக்கான மக்களிடம் என்னை கொண்டு சென்றது. 22 ஆண்டுகள் ஆகியும் அந்த படத்தில் வரும் ஸ்ரீரெங்கநாதர் பாடல் அன்று போல் இன்றும் கைத்தட்டல், ஆரவாரம் தருவது மகிழ்ச்சி அளிக்கிறது. வாய்ப்பை கொடுத்த இளையராஜாவிற்கு நன்றிகடன்பட்டுள்ளேன்.*

அருள் முருகன் = அரோல் கொரேலி 

The usual statement of "IR is my model" business by this MD whose name got changed by Mysskin...

* உங்கள் ரோல் மாடல் யார் ?பெற்றோர்தான் எனக்கு முதல் ரோல் மாடல். அதன்பின் இசையமைப்பாளர்கள் இளையராஜா, ஏ.ஆர்.ரகுமான், எம்.எஸ்.வி., ஜான்வில்லியம்ஸ், உள்ளிட்டோரை ரோல் மாடலாக ஏற்றுக்கொண்டேன்.* 

SPB Interview

“In my formative years I used to take part in stage programmes in Chennai along with Ilayaraja who used to play the harmonium,” he recollected.He advised the young singers to enhance their knowledge of song-writers and music directors. “It is unfortunate many present-day singers do not have a knowledge of song-writers and music directors. For a song to be heard, the role of the lyricist, music director and other technicians are immense.”He admitted that present day lyricists are forced to compromise due to the diktats of the market forces.

I'm surprised (and saddened) about the current status of MD's

மிக முக்கியமாக தமிழ்நாட்டில் இசை சார்ந்தும் இளையராஜா சார்ந்தும் இந்தப் பார்வை அவசியமாகிறது.


Rajavin isaiyai purindhu kolla murpadalam...... arumaiyana katturai.........


தொனியியலின் அடிப்படைகள்:



[b]சரி நமக்குத் தேவை இந்த அடிப்படை சுரம் மட்டும்தானே. இந்த அலைவரிசைதானே நமக்கு முதன்மையாகக் கேட்கிறது, இந்த சுரச்சாயல்களைப் பற்றி நமக்கென்ன கவலை என்று நினைக்கலாம். உண்மையில் இந்த சுரச்சாயல்களே ஒரு கருவிக்கான, ஒரு குரலுக்கான நயத்தை வழங்குகின்றன. எஸ்.பி.பியும், ஜேசுதாசும், எம். எஸும் ஒரே சுரத்தைப் பாடினாலும் இந்த சுரச்சாயல்களே அவர்களின் குரல் தன்மையையும், இனிமையினையும் தீர்மானிக்கின்றன.  எனவே இந்த சுரச்சாயல் வரிசை சுவாரஸ்யமானதாகிறது. ஆனால் அதனை ஆராயும் போது நமக்கு ஒரு பெரிய அதிசயம் காத்திருக்கிறது.
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[b][b]இந்த சுரச்சாயல் அலைவரிசைகளை இருவகையாகப் பிரிக்கலாம். முதல் வகை அலைவரிசைகள், இந்த கூட்டுச்சுரத்தின் அடிப்படை சுரத்தை வலுவூட்டுகின்றன. இவை Harmonic Overtones எனப்படுகின்றன. இரண்டாவது வகை அலைவரிசைகள், அடிப்படை சுரத்தை வலுவிழக்கச் செய்கின்றன. இவை Inharmonic overtones என்றழைக்கப்படுகின்றன. ஒரு ஒலியின் தன்மையை இவையே தீர்மானிக்கின்றன. ஒரு இசைக்கருவியில் எழுப்பப்படும் ஒலியானது அதன் கூட்டுச்சுரத்தில் அதிகமாக Harmonic overtonesஐக் கொண்டிருக்கிறது. இதுவே அதன் அற்புதமான தொனிக்கு காரணமாகிறது.   மாறாக இரைச்சலை  தரும் ஒலி அதிகமாக Inharmonic Overtonesஐக் கொண்டிருக்கிறது. எனவே இந்த ஒலி இரைச்சல் மிகுந்ததாகிறது. ஒரு ஒலியின் தனித்துவம் அதில் இடம் பெறும் harmonic/inharmonic சுரச்சாயல்களின் தன்மையால் ஆகிறது. ஆனால் இவ்வாறு ஒரு ஒலியை நமது செவிக்கு அற்புதமாக்கி வழங்கும் Harmonic அலைவரிசைகளில் அப்படி என்ன இருக்கிறது. 
[/b][/b]




[b][b]Great points..... adhanal dhan Rajavin isai epodhum inimaiyaga irukiradhu namaku. aduthavar isai.. sathamaga irukiradhu................ nam kaadhum., nam manadhum[/b][/b]
[b][b]thavaru ilai..........[/b][/b]






True.......


anal enna.. naayin kuraipum inimaiyaga marum Rajavin kaiyil...........

V_S,

  indha katturai padingo.. yen ipadi oru pulambal vandhadhu ungaluku endru ungalukae theiryum...........

(Raja Raja dhan... vera yarum kidaiyadhu....... avar dhan niraiya koduthu irukirarae.. athanaiyum kaetka mudindhadha.. kaetu muditheergala.
kandipaga mudiyadhu.. homework madhirii pending irukum. kaetu sandhosha padungo.........)

.. Rajavirku piragu sollum.. ivarin uzhaipai.. arumaiyai..

Real Maand from Vioin Vicky..

I can go on.. 

These are unprecedented ideas in Maand ! 
The notes have always been there.. 
The constellations have always been there.. 
Composers have come and gone and are still around.. and yet you only find the 1-4-5 progressions in their songs.. 

You can say a thousand things about the personal side of the man. But when you compare apples to apples, i.e., when you take his Maand and compare it with a light musically arranged Maand of someone else, you can objectively assert that his works often come out to be the best. 

He is indeed the true 'Thanikaatu Raja' ..!!


Rajavin Greatness. ivar kaadhuku matum Special aga kaetum oru punniyathai petru irukirar.......... 


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccLZ9AbOtgE&feature=youtu.be

Ilaiyaraja Flute... always Sweet to the core.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z_oocTohr4&list=RD9z_oocTohr4#t=47