IR's waltz hits

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  panniapurathar on Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:23 pm

App!!  Mikka nandri for this great analysis!  As Usha akka says your dedication to analyzing so many aspects of IR's music over the years has enriched our music listening experience!  Many thanks!

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:52 pm

panniapurathar wrote:App!!  Mikka nandri for this great analysis!  As Usha akka says your dedication to analyzing so many aspects of IR's music over the years has enriched our music listening experience!  Many thanks!

nanRi panniapurathar for your kind words!

Smile

My recent phrase "yAnai-kurudan" is applicable to all my "analysis" stuff Smile


Last edited by app_engine on Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:56 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:00 pm

Good samples, counterpoint!
(In one of my long posts in the last page, I did mention about 'kAdhOdu dhAn nAn pEsuvEn' song)

As indicated by your samples (plus those nAdan stuff of pre-IR that I quoted), it is kind of clear that rAjA's predecessors used waltz for curiosity, mostly straight forward, template driven Embarassed (Of course there could be exceptions, but not too many)...

Often "inspired" by what was available to them in that time period.

OTOH, right from his film #1, IR's approach was one of novelty / innovation in using waltz. (Just look at the variations in those three songs, of rhythm patterns as well as the variety of drums deployed).

In addition, he made his new "tablA-waltz" genre with which 100's of songs became hits!
(i.e. mounamANa nEram / kaNmaNiyE pEsu style which will instantly be identified as IR by every pAmaran)

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:41 pm

OK, time for my next opinion Laughing

Opinion #9 :  The best tablA-waltz of IR were done in connection with albums that were either "common" to TFM-MFM or for directors who were prominent in "both these fields" (like BM / Fazil)!

While IR had terrific success with nAdan-waltz (both soft ones and racy / urumi kind of terror themmAngus) and regular western-waltz (including "jazz waltz"), his most successful and signature / trademark implementation was for tablA based waltz numbers IMHO.

We see such numbers right from the beginning of IR's TFM career - for e.g. an early song of singer Sujatha in the movie Gayathri (1977) - kAlaippaniyil Adum malargaL. The song's interlude prior to first saraNam is quite short but the one for second saraNam is terrific and the song is a veeNai / santoor treat besides string accompaniments and the tablA-waltz :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcFwEAkcBxw


There's also this "Yugi Sethu / Singer Sujatha youtube" for any who is interested :  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQuB8wME4X0

While this song had some MFM connection (Sujatha used to sing in KJY's stage shows as a school girl and IR brought her to TFM), this is not the sample to support my opinion above Wink This is just for reiterating the fact that IR's tablA-waltz wasn't something that came up in "eighties" Laughing

So, what songs I'm going to showcase here? It's mandatory that I grab some songs that IR did for BM in MF (that either made into TFM as songs or otherwise popular in TN via vividh bharathi or IOKS)!

The terrific 'vEzhambal kEzhum' from OLangaL :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=778FBklntFo


This song is such a sweetie that can be instantly identified as "IR-song" by anyone in TN regardless of the fact that the song was made in a different language Wink I do remember listening to this song in vividh bharathi those days and instantly recognizing it to be an IR song even though I didn't know the movie in which it happened to be in!  The song also strongly establishes my another pet theory that BM was so fond of waltz (not just based on Julie Ganapthy, there are tons of samples - in neengaL kEttavai, it wasn't just adiyE manam nillunnA nikkAdhadi but also the sweet tablA thAlAttu "piLLai nilA iraNdum veLLai nilA").

Here's another super hit for a BM-MF movie yAthrA by IR (possibly the song got dubbed into TFM sometime later):
yamunE ninnude (unfortunately every youtube of this song is of inferior quality)!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzJkDuIzK6A


I've posted many times about this song on forums - as to how nostalgic this number is to me as the great feel to listen to IR in radio in small chAyakkadais of Palakkad in my initial months there Smile

That movie also has this sweet song that has "my-favorite-things-Malayalam-adaptation-as-a-nursery-rhyme", thannannam thAnannam thALaththil Adi, a sweet waltz Smile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rALqtXURb7o


What starts as a "western waltz" then smoothly transitions into IR-brand tablA-waltz (dhoorE dhoorE peNkiLi kAththirunnu) Smile

Now, that song should remind us of the famous "India's first 3D movie" that was made in multiple languages a couple of years back...the song made that simultaneous arrival in both MFM & TFM and was a roaring hit those days and a sweet tablA waltz (for familiarity, I'm posting the TF version here):

cheLLa kuzhandhaigaLE, thuLLum vasandhangaLE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43p7YYyVWFo


That Navodhaya producer later brought director Fazil to direct Thamizh movies and IR was his MD for all TF projects!

No, I'm not going to list all those Fazil-IR-waltz hits here Smile

Just two numbers for my theory's sake and both are phenomenal! Interestingly, these songs were phenomenally popular in Malayalam (and their TFM equivalents are reasonably well-known as well). Of course, these songs are my all-time-fav numbers!

Olaththumbathu from pappayude swantham appoos : I've heard the TF equivalent a few times on buses but don't know which movie etc but MF version was so popular that when the manorama mag featured a cover story on IR sometime in 1990 (or 91), the article started with the pallavi lines of this song, elaborating how these lines are on the lips of every Malayali in the world at that time!

Well, this song has both SJ & KJY versions and the prelude has sweet waltz on strings in the KJY version. The song itself can be classified "IR-tablA-waltz" Smile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELEaxpW1JPM


AlApanam from ende sooryaputhrikku is the second one from IR-Fazil MFM combo which has an equivalent in TFM also (this song can go on repeat for 100's of times during my rides and I can NEVER GET TIRED of it!)

Well, terrific tablA waltz Smile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtMx3X-1XKw


People often use the term "melting" when talking about music / melodies etc ; more often it's just a word with no real meaning intended by the writer. Much like the "amazing / genius / legendary" kind of nonsense.

However, if one wants to understand what "melting music" is, please listen to the interludes - especially the string portions - of AlApanam (or its TFM equivalent, poongAviyam)!

There's one doubt for me in this song, however Embarassed

Either Sureshji or V_Sji or C_K or other musically savvy folks please clarify. The second saraNam has a reference to "Adhi thALam" in this song confused  My layman understanding of Adhi thALam is 4/4 (or 4+4) and waltz strictly may not belong there. Is it just poetic liberty or there's also musical connection / correctness there?


Moving on, there's one terrific waltz in Padmarajan's mooNAm pakkam. I think there's a TF equivalent (I may be wrong there). In any case, I cannot pass this sweetie which is evergreen (even recently a MalayaLi co-worker lamented as to how the unholy alliance of Lalettan-MG Srikumar spoilt any chances of this Venu singer making it big, referring to this very song).
uNarumee gAnam, urugumen uLLam (once again "melting" there Laughing)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDpYk0lvHfw


Now, this one will be last - from kAlApAni / siRaichchAlai, another MF-TF multilingual album. Priyadharshan is the guy who keeps moving things across languages and IR did his top-notch orch for this waltz number (even though the song didn't make it to the screen, unfortunately). BTW, this may not be a "tablA-waltz" but a WCM orch version that later moves on the kango drums, just want to highlight IR's love to have waltz in MF-TF simultaneous kind of ventures!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5AfGFSyo-M

BTW, even if you have little patience to read my long post, please DO LISTEN TO ALL THESE SONGS! They'll make your day lovely!

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  Raaga_Suresh on Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:46 am

app,

The song is technically is Adi talam. Almost all these songs are in adi talam. Instead of having a straight 4x4, which means 4 subdivisions in every beat, they have 3x4, that is 3 subdivisions per beat. I think that is what is called Waltz gait. In carnatic music we call it tisra nadai. Tisram meaning 3. So this is indeed a waltz and it is indeed adi talam Smile

One way you can check this is to keep time when the singing happens. You will find that every line ends after four beats. Then observe how the tabla plays. You will hear the ta-ki-ta phrase. In many of the Raja songs, in the charanams, he makes the tisram very evident. 

If it was only a 3 beat song, the talam will be roopakam. They are very few roopakam's in TFM. I think there is one in the film 'Vellai Roja' a Malaysia Vasudevan song.

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:23 pm

mikka nanRi Sureshji!

It's very clear to me now Smile

(After all Adhi thALam and waltz are not mutually exclusive Laughing Waltz is a sub-set of Adhi, as a tisra nadai!)

That is why we need a padichchavar in the oor Smile

Most webpages that talk about Adhi thALam aren't clear enough (i.e. for a layman like me)...some start well but confuse by the time they finish.

I should be able to understand this solvanam article (and youtube) better now ; earlier, there was confusion about "how does nooRu varusham indha mAppiLLaiyum poNNum dhAn will fit into the video" Embarassed

http://solvanam.com/?p=9998

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Mon Mar 07, 2016 8:34 pm

Some nice discussion in the past on IR's thALams

Revisited today this excellent thread in our pazhaiya veedu, as I searched the web on misra chApu (this izhai has some nice contribution by our Sureshji among others).

It has very less discussion about waltz though Wink 
(Of course, there's this "tisra nadai" reference for "rAsAththi onna" which I could completely understand and comprehend today - waltz in Adhi thALam Laughing  )

BTW, the post by our S K Rajiv on "chenkathir" song of snEha veedu is terrific!

I was listening to that song recently and got confused by the prelude - that sounded 4 beat cycle to me - but the pallavi is very clearly 7 beat cycle, even to my uneducated ears! (tha-ki-ta-tha-ka-dhi-mi, like meeNdum meeNdum vA / manasu mayangum / en jeevan pAdudhu / hichki-kichki songs).

My repeat listens of "chenkathir" prelude kept me absorbed and confused. I could count 7 beat cycle and also 4 beat cycle Embarassed

Now, this thread has a nice and clear explanation as to how 84 is divisible by both 7 & 4 Laughing

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Fri Mar 11, 2016 7:49 pm

This is a "scope expansion" of my earlier opinion #7a, where I talked about all IR albums of 5 songs or more having at least one waltz...

Opinion #10 
Almost all "famous" or "iconic" albums / movies of IR had a "waltz"! That is, regardless of the number of songs in the project (i.e. even without the >=5 clause...<5 but famous project)


Picking up samples for this is quite easy. We've already covered a number of albums that had 5 or more songs and were "famous" (karagAttakkAran / agni * / salangai oli / kAkki chattai , HTNI, NBW etc.)

In this post we'll specifically focus on some famous IR albums that were not necessarily 5 or more but still had a "waltz".

The famous thriller sigappu rOjAkkaL didn't have space for many songs. That 3rd project of IR-BR had only 2 songs. The famous number 'ninaivO oru paRavai', sung by SJ-Kamal, is a fit for our thread!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR-3IoaON6g



Then there is another "thriller" which got advertised as IR's 100th film (moodupani) and a BM project. Most people are familiar with 'en iniya pon nilAvE' (not waltz) but there is a small song which is kind of "theme song" for the movie and that one satisfies the criteria for the thread and this opinion - 'Asai rAjA AreerO / ammA poNNE AreerO' (Uma Ramanan)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxnEQ9IPKgY

The song is used as BGM in climax:


Of course, we've already covered a few iconic BM projects in Malayalam that had only 3 or 4 songs and they had their share of waltz (OLangaL, yAthra)...

We've already talked about Mahendran's nenjaiththaikkiLLAdhE that had only 4 songs but sure enough there was waltz (paruvamE / Eh thendRalE). What about other Mahendran projects? We've featured Johny that had 'en vAnilE' but it also got included in the >=5 category Wink

Let's pick 'muLLum malarum', an iconic project / album. Did it have waltz? Yes of course, both nAdan songs (lyrics by GA and so got featured in detail in the GA thread, niththam niththam nelluchchORu & rAmEn ANdAlum) were "waltz"!

What about udhirippookkaL, considered one of the all-time-great Thamizh films?  Please listen to the prelude of the fantastic "azhagiya kaNNE", classic waltz!  That way all those first four projects of Mahendran that are worth talking about had #IR_waltz!

We did talk about one of the best-ever albums in TF history, nizhalgaL, that had only four songs and had dhooraththil nAn kaNda - #IR_Waltz.

IR-Sridhar combo had iconic albums (but most had 5 or more songs) and we've already talked about iLamai oonjalAdukiRadhu / azhagE unnai ArAdhikkiREn.

For records' sake, I'll have to bring in ninaivellAm nithyA & thenRalE ennaiththodu. Both had #IR_Waltz, of course Smile

rOjAvaiththAlAttum thenRal, starts with a different nadai in the prelude (4X4 I think) but as soon as the prelude ends and SJ starts her AhAram, it sweetly switches to waltz and the rest of the song is terrific IR-brand-signature-tablA-waltz. The song has a pathos version, kAnal neer pOl endhan kAdhal, where we can feel the sweetness of waltz even better!

Likewise, the famous KJY-UR song, kaNmaNi nee varakkAththirundhEn of TET is a racy waltz number!

Similar to Sridhar movies, the Motherland pictures projects typically had more than 5 songs and some got sampled in that category already. They are ALSO RELEVANT to this category as most of those albums were famous / iconic / listed IR on poster as "இளையராஜாவின் இன்னிசை மழையில்"! We've earlier talked about PM (sAlaiyOram) and IK (isai mEdaiyil). What about other albums?

nAn pAdum pAdal had the terrific "dEvan kOyil deepam onRu". udhayageetham had nAdan waltz in 'mAnE thEnE kattippudi'. unnai nAn sandhiththEn had the Kannadasan number 'dEvan thandha veeNai', classic waltz presented in tablA. The Maniratnam project for Kovaiththambi, idhaykkOyil, had the iconic 'idhayam oru kOyil' as tablA-waltz, IR doing all three roles for the song (composer / lyricist / singer). These albums may have more than one waltz number as there were a number of songs.

The thread will be incomplete if I don't feature that classic here - the waltz rhythm runs through out the song, including the accompanying keyboard sound!
SPB version here :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m07GG32P0cE


We can keep looking at MOST ICONIC / FAMOUS albums and should be able to spot a waltz - regardless of the number of songs.

p.s. There may be exceptions, though very few. I found one - Fazil's first Thamizh project, poovE poochchooda vA, not having a waltz Embarassed
(It had three songs, all in the chathursra nadai only - poovE poochchooda va, chinnakkuyil pAdum, pattAsa chuttuchchuttu)

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  crimson king on Sat Mar 12, 2016 6:05 pm

IR is bound to use at least the folk waltz one way or another if not the more stylish/ethereal Western counterpart.  3/4 is a favourite beat for him for lullabies and sad songs.  Again, same as Hindi.  Maybe the old Hindi composers also drew more strongly from their folk roots (compared to MSV).

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  Usha on Sun Mar 13, 2016 12:52 pm

Azgagae unnai aradhanai seigiren bit song.....

Oru naalil valarndhene  from Unni thedi varuven

setril oru sengazhunir  from Thunai irupal Meenakshi

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Mon Mar 14, 2016 6:23 pm

crimson king wrote: Again, same as Hindi.  Maybe the old Hindi composers also drew more strongly from their folk roots (compared to MSV).

In MSV's case, I suspect it was a matter of choice by others (such as Kannadasan / directors who thought folk is low-class). He was "too humble" and could be typically pushed by others, including heroes (MGR had a big say in music of his movies after he became a star).

I picked some 100 top old hits for playing in the van during the 9 hour drive yesterday with my parents (mostly 50s / 60s and a few 70's) and as suspected, the "waltz or tisra nadai" % among the popular MSV hits is just about 10%.

Of course, it was never a question of taste / composing ability IMHO. It was more a question of "choice". For e.g., one of the songs that MSV himself felt very proud about and produced an instrumental version also later, is a superb tablA waltz. The delicious PS number from soodhAttam, viLakkEtRi vaikkiREn vidiya vidiya eriyattum :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AM6GpTREo8


That "vidiya vidiya" = "tha-ki-ta , tha-ki-ta" - so sweet! And the interludes are classic waltz!

So, I think it was more a choice of "sophistication" by the team MSV was working with and he mostly choosing to be a "humble partner".

OTOH, IR's philosophy was definitely - i.e. from the beginning - one of being unyielding with his musical choices and convictions! It wasn't easy to arm twist him I think!

Which is why we easily see at least 1/3 of his songs going away from the chatusra nadai. (I counted the number of "waltz"  from a number hit collections - CDs released by others, self compilations etc - and each time it's one third or more.)

Plus, if we simply limit our statistics to IR's mega hit songs (patti-thotti-citi kinds), "waltz" will be almost 50%.

That is a big paradigm shift!

I was talking about iconic / famous albums...randomly picked a couple.

alaigaL Oyvadhillai (IR's first production for BR's sake, mega hit album, first TFM record by Polydor company)...there is both nAdan (Ayiram thAmarai mottukkaLE) and sophi (vizhiyil vizhundhu idhayam nuzhaindhu). Well, there was also waltz kappaikkizhangu which Radha reportedly talked about in the IR-1000 function Embarassed

Or the Kamal triple role blockbuster hit apoorva sagOdharargaL. The fantastic SPB pathos hit is a sweet tablA waltz (onna nenachchEn pAttuppadichchEn) :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPeFPGdFp0M


That was not the only one, it had to have its themmAngu waltz share also Wink
aNNAththa AduRar, the nAdan sweetie:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THN6JT2fR6Y


Well, the cream of AS, its very famous theme music, is sophisticated waltz :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyLUb1s9yDk


That way, IR ensured his top hits had sizable waltz percentage - almost 40-50% (compare that with <10% of MSV's top hits.)

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Tue Mar 15, 2016 7:36 pm

While picking my 3rd most favorite of IR-VJ numbers for that thread, I noticed that the album rOsAppoo ravikkaikkAri had 100% tisra nadai
(movie directed by Devaraj-Mohan duo, the same people who directed IR's first movie annakkiLi which was predominantly waltz as well)

We've already talked about the SPB classic "uchchi vagindheduththu pichchippoo vachcha kiLi" and it being a "nAdan waltz" - especially the udukkai adi in the last interlude.

I've just posted in the VJ thread that the northie sounding tablA delight "ennuLLil engO" is running in tisra nadai. (ghazal-like-sounding)

The other two songs are puccA nAdan stuff and follow thakita-thakita nadai as well.

veththala veththala veththalayO (MV)
mAmEn oru nAL malligappoo koduththAn (SPB-SPS) - should we call this song "reverse waltz" Laughing

This movie was advertised as Sivakumar's 100th movie (pretty bold thingy for a TN "hero" to pick a story like that for his landmark - that of playing a loser husband whose wife cheats him and falls for a more "sophisticated" Sivachandran).

IR's songs were patti-thotti-radio-citi hits those days and a couple of them (ennuLLil MSV & uchchi vagundheduththu) are well remembered to this day, even being part of reality TV shows...power of #IR_Waltz

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Tue Mar 15, 2016 8:44 pm

Even though this thread is all about "opinions" (please see the disclaimer in the very first post) and not statistics / facts, just wanted to satisfy my curiosity on the statements made in the post on aboorva sagOdharargaL (which were basically random samples based).

That

(a) IR did 1/3 of his songs in tisra nadai

and

(b) of his big hits, waltz / tisra forms around 40-50% (well, I said close to 50% in that post, which means this Embarassed )

I picked one of the CDs recently given to the participants of the IR-1000 felicitation by some group, to check if the above statements can be verified.

i.e., the disk 2, that has four tracks from unreleased albums - mERku thodarchi malai, muthurAmalingam, appA and kattam pOtta sattai.

Well, looks like I'm quite close - with this random set of some 50 IR tracks Smile

Of course there are 17 of them that follow waltz / tisra nadai (thakita-thakita)!  Making up 1/3 of this random play list!

Then I tried to set aside what can be called "hits" (very subjective opinion of course Laughing As told in the old SPB thread, my criteria is something like "involuntary listening of it a few times in everyday situations, like radio / bus / teakkadai / functions etc").

As I picked "hits" from my PoV, there are about 25 of them. (That is a terrific number out of 46 as I excluded the new ones from consideration).

Now, how many are tisra waltz there? 10! (Which is 40% and though in the lower end of the proposed spectrum, not a bad proposal...especially when looking at a disk that contains "rare / unknown" waltz tracks such as "enRum vAna veLiyil" of kELviyum nAnE badhilum nAnE that even I could not recall, despite listening to the album many times from my hostel mate's recorded cassette at the time of its arrival).

So, this hypothesis seems to be reasonably decent...going by random samples!

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:50 pm

I need to once again drag some other composers' iconic albums / hit songs to contrast with IR for this % / statistics business, mainly to further validate the hypothesis to myself! In this process, we might also get some reasonable samples to show to others who may want to dismiss this thing as "just another IRF's rantings to give Ilayaraja some exclusivity".

We've already seen the iconic pudhiya paRavai, that didn't have a single waltz. Whenever I think of that movie, anbE vA also comes to mind. (Two reasons : 1. Both the movies I watched for the first time in the college auditorium in the same time period, may be within a couple of weeks 2. Same bungalow / building used as the "set" for both the movies Laughing )

anbE vA had reportedly 8 tracks and almost all of them were big patti thotti hits and are evergreen to this day.  rAjAvin pArvai rANiyin pakkam, uLLam enRoru kOvililE, love birds, nAn pArthadhilE, pudhiya vAnam puthiya bhoomi, vekkamillai nANamillai, puliyaippAr nadaiyilE & adios good bye - all these songs were tha-ka-dhi-mi-tha-ka-ju-nu (4/4) numbers Shocked

Of course, MSV showed some mercy on tisram by including a humor / joke song (once a pApA met a mAmA by AL Raghavan). That one, kind of showcases the attitude prevailing on waltz prior to IR - just for curiosity / fun. Not for the main meal / meat.

Compare that to ANY famous or iconic album of IR - I don't have to restate the different treatment meted out to waltz Smile

Now, some may be wondering why I'm not mentioning any composers that came AFTER IR in this exercise.

Well, take this one - the launch pad of ARR - rOjA - zero waltz Wink (May be he fashioned himself as MSV's disciple in this aspect too)

Or grab that QSQT of Anand-Milind which was a huge hit even in TN (the MD duo who later remade a few IR hits into Hindi). Yes, zero waltz!

OK, I need to quickly come back to IR and grab a couple other "iconic / famous" albums and identify the waltz there...Let us pick "Guna" , that terrific album with the bonus conversation between IR & Kamal - a reasonably lengthy one on the "letter-writing-song"  - no prizes for guessing it's a classic waltz!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hHq2lYof4U


For those who want only "petromax light" (i.e. AVM entertainer movie similar to anbE vA and a big hit to compare), take this sakalakalAvallavan Wink
(It has two nAdan waltz numbers, amman kOyil kezhakkAlE & katta vaNdi katta vaNdi, the second one with roaring guitar sounds and male / female versions)

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:53 pm

BTW, checked out the disc 1 of IR-1000 function distribution.

Embarassed

நம்ம தியரிக்கு பலத்த அடி Smile

Only 11 out the 50 super hit songs are waltz in this disk (just above 20%). So, my theory does not work as good as in the case of other random collections that I've tested with, including the disc 2 of the same function distribution.

I'm not trying to explain away - but one has to be aware of certain things about this exclusive collection :

First of all, all are handpicked hits from 80's (something like "internet favorites of IR" or "super singer favorites of IR")!  While there is no question that all the songs were / are immensely popular and evergreen gems, the collection does not include ALL hits from the few movies represented. That way, it is more like an "individual's choice".

Secondly, it seems to have carefully avoided anything that will be called 'themmAngu' (with the rare exception of poththi vachcha malliga mottu and adi AththAdee) and that puts thakita-thakita at some disadvantage, because that is one strong territory for it (almost 90% of IR's themmAngu hits follow the tisra waltz).

Still, this disk kind of shakes up the theory a lot Smile

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  crimson king on Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:50 am

Appji re Hindi while QSQT did not have 3/4, it was very much ubiquitous at the time in Hindi. Aashiqui had Main Duniya Bhoola Dunga, Baazigar had Chhupana Bhi Nahi Aata, Kabhi Haan Kabhi Naa had Ae Kaash Ke Hum, so on. In the 90s they killed the ballroom waltz with sheer overuse just as smooth jazz killed the sax in pop in the 80s and 90s. Nobody wanted to listen to 3/4 anymore because these songs were near identical and boring as hell. And as I have mentioned before 3/4 was very popular before IR in Hindi; the dreamy Dil Ki Girah Khol Do immediately comes to mind among maybe hundreds, thousands of songs.

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:53 pm

crimson king wrote:Appji re Hindi while QSQT did not have 3/4, it was very much ubiquitous at the time in Hindi. Aashiqui had Main Duniya Bhoola Dunga, Baazigar had Chhupana Bhi Nahi Aata, Kabhi Haan Kabhi Naa had Ae Kaash Ke Hum, so on.

Of course, HFM had been more liberal towards waltz compared to MSV Smile

The reason I dragged QSQT is just as an example to show case that "While IR's iconic albums mostly never missed a good dosage of waltz, the same cannot be stated for others' iconic albums". Same goes for rOjA (BTW, I'm not that much interested in conducting a % study for anyone who came after IR Embarassed )

The other day I was running a "Hindi-playlist" during my drive and could spot many waltz numbers - especially from those TN-patti-thotti hit movies...

main shAyar tO naheen (L-P, Bobby) was popular even in our hamlet.

Likewise RDB's YKB was very popular and it had at least 2 waltz numbers   yAdOn ki bArAt and O mEri sOni .

There must be many more such L-P / RDB samples from 70's in contrast to MSV's love for 4/4 thakadhimi-thakajunu domination.

May be this was in the back of IR's mind when he launched his offensive in the scene with annakkiLi that had all tisram except one song.

Interestingly, it wasn't all "nAdan waltz" in 70's as we've seen with many samples. However, I wasn't scrutinizing from the "70's angle" so far but getting beaten up with that disk-1 of IR-1000 function, that had super hits mostly of mid-80's, avoiding nAdan songs and getting <25% waltz, made me re-look from a chronological angle.

Which took me to IR's second movie, another big hit that established him well and removed any "one-hit-wonder" doubts - badhrakALi.

We've already listed 'kEttELE ingE' song from this, which is a nAdan / themmAngu variety, despite Vaali's "agrahAra bAshai". There's another thakita-thakita nAdan song, "oththa roovA onakkuththAREn, paththAttiyum eduththuththAREn" by SJ-MV which became very popular in villages.

However, the biggest punch (should I say a knock-out punch) was the sweet, tablA, melodious classic - kaNNan oru kaikkuzhandhai! The song that many hold dear to this day and asserted that IR wasn't a "folk-comfort-zone" guy but can do light music with aplomb!

Well, that one is a tisra nadai tablA waltz sweetie Wink
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfyFbJO35-w


I need to further analyze his hits from 76-79 (which are many but not as numerous as later time period) and find out the waltz %, to fine-tune the hypothesis Wink

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:14 pm

ஆடிஓடிக் கடைசியில் புள்ளிவிவரத்துக்கு வந்தாச்சு Embarassed

In any case, this is like my OCD Laughing
(obsessive compulsive disorder)

Well, the launch year 1976 had only 4 Thamizh movies by IR and here are the statistics :



So, the first year far exceeds my proposed numbers (proposed theory : tisram for 1/3 of all songs and 40% of hits) Smile 

That year IR gave 17 unique melodies (some of them got repeated as pathos / short songs etc and I'm not counting such duplicates - for e.g. annakkiLi has both SJ and TMS versions but I'm counting as only one, for both denominator and numerator). 9 of them followed tisra nadai (far greater than 1/3, actually more than 1/2). 

Out of the 17, there were 12 "app_engine_certified" hit songs and every one of the 9 waltz numbers made it to the hit chart. Once again 75% is much greater than my proposed 40%!

So, IR had tisram as his springboard for the launch year! 
(BTW, it included all kinds - soft folk, rocking themmAngu folk, tablA light, "western" slow waltz)

We'll keep doing this for each year and see if there is a chronological pattern for IR with his "thakita-thakita" fixation Wink


Last edited by app_engine on Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  crimson king on Fri Mar 18, 2016 6:31 pm

app_engine wrote:
crimson king wrote:Appji re Hindi while QSQT did not have 3/4, it was very much ubiquitous at the time in Hindi. Aashiqui had Main Duniya Bhoola Dunga, Baazigar had Chhupana Bhi Nahi Aata, Kabhi Haan Kabhi Naa had Ae Kaash Ke Hum, so on.

Of course, HFM had been more liberal towards waltz compared to MSV Smile

The reason I dragged QSQT is just as an example to show case that "While IR's iconic albums mostly never missed a good dosage of waltz, the same cannot be stated for others' iconic albums". Same goes for rOjA (BTW, I'm not that much interested in conducting a % study for anyone who came after IR Embarassed )

The other day I was running a "Hindi-playlist" during my drive and could spot many waltz numbers - especially from those TN-patti-thotti hit movies...

main shAyar tO naheen (L-P, Bobby) was popular even in our hamlet.

Likewise RDB's YKB was very popular and it had at least 2 waltz numbers   yAdOn ki bArAt and O mEri sOni .

There must be many more such L-P / RDB samples from 70's in contrast to MSV's love for 4/4 thakadhimi-thakajunu domination.

May be this was in the back of IR's mind when he launched his offensive in the scene with annakkiLi that had all tisram except one song.

Interestingly, it wasn't all "nAdan waltz" in 70's as we've seen with many samples. However, I wasn't scrutinizing from the "70's angle" so far but getting beaten up with that disk-1 of IR-1000 function, that had super hits mostly of mid-80's, avoiding nAdan songs and getting <25% waltz, made me re-look from a chronological angle.

Which took me to IR's second movie, another big hit that established him well and removed any "one-hit-wonder" doubts - badhrakALi.

We've already listed 'kEttELE ingE' song from this, which is a nAdan / themmAngu variety, despite Vaali's "agrahAra bAshai". There's another thakita-thakita nAdan song, "oththa roovA onakkuththAREn, paththAttiyum eduththuththAREn" by SJ-MV which became very popular in villages.

However, the biggest punch (should I say a knock-out punch) was the sweet, tablA, melodious classic - kaNNan oru kaikkuzhandhai! The song that many hold dear to this day and asserted that IR wasn't a "folk-comfort-zone" guy but can do light music with aplomb!

Well, that one is a tisra nadai tablA waltz sweetie Wink
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfyFbJO35-w


I need to further analyze his hits from 76-79 (which are many but not as numerous as later time period) and find out the waltz %, to fine-tune the hypothesis Wink

That may also be a matter of pedigree.  QSQT may have been 'iconic' in the barren 80s HFM scene but Anand-Milind surely can't hold a candle to IR.  Even their father Chitragupt's two most popular songs - Jaag Dil De Diwana and Yeh Parbaton Ke - are in 3/4.  If I look at SJ, Sangam has Dost Dost No Raha, Love In Tokyo has O Mere Shahe Kuban (tabla waltz), Mera Naam Joker has two (Jeena Yahan and Jaane Kahan), Jhuk Gaya Aasman has Kaun Hain Jo Sapnon, etc.  So if not all films, certainly a high proportion of their iconic soundtracks had at least one song in 3/4. So maybe the older composers were much more comfortable incorporating 3/4 into their music.  I would say with RDB that frequency had already begun to go down as he wanted a more rocking sound (which goes better with 4/4).  He did have very popular/great songs in 3/4 like Yaadon Ki Baarat, Jeevan Ke Din, Suhani Chandni Raatein but he seemed to be less fond of it than say SJ, MM, LP.  His father SDB had the immortal Tere Mere Sapne in 3/4 but other than that usually did not go for it because he was quite fond of 7/8.  Almost entire Abhimaan soundtrack is in 7/8.   Laughing   Not really, but much of it is.  

With all that said, it still baffles me why MSV would not use it.  The only explanation is that he didn't know quite what to do with it and was too comfortable in 4/4 to let go of it.

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:45 pm

crimson king wrote:
That may also be a matter of pedigree.  

Smile

rotfl

Appreciate the samples you've listed in the post...I know only very few Hindi songs and will seek out and listen to these numbers!

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  crimson king on Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:13 am

app_engine wrote:
crimson king wrote:
That may also be a matter of pedigree.  

Smile

rotfl

Appreciate the samples you've listed in the post...I know only very few Hindi songs and will seek out and listen to these numbers!

In that case, allow me to list great 3/4 songs of two other composers, MM and LP. 

Madan Mohan - Lag Ja Gale, Aap Ke Pehloo Mein Aakar Ro Diye, Main Nigahon, Hum Hain Mata-e-Koocha, Ruke Ruke Kadam (the song that practically bankrolled Jagjit Singh's successful career). 

LP -  Raat Suhani Jaag Rahi (magical number!), Yeh Dil Tum Bin, Jo Unki Tamanna, O Ghata Sawari Thodi Thodi. 

There are many songs, and by other composers but this is a good primer imo.

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:07 pm

nanRi CK sir!

I'll get to them one by one Smile

Chitragupt's jAg dil E diwAnA is a sweet number in the magical Rafi voice. 

congos-waltz Wink
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raZFc6ZDb-I

(From the movie "oonchE lOg", 1965 model - it seems there's a 1985 version too. Per wiki, this was based on KB's stage play which also got made as a film later in Thamizh - Major Chandrakanth - but the HF got made earlier in a Madras studio it seems. Quite interesting!)

This waltz from Thamizh Major Chandrakanth is a popular number too (music by V Kumar who seemed to have a preference for waltz and some of his big hits follow this time signature)
oru nAL yArO enna pAdal solliththandhArO
(PS sounds so sweet in this number)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW5Rgov83Ck


Posting a song from KB film brings us back to one of the topics in this thread - iconic IR albums - and what could be more iconic than the first movie in the IR-KB combo, sindhu bhairavi!

Are there waltz songs in it?  

இப்படி ஒரு கேள்வி கேட்பதே தவறு Smile

The phenomenal "pAdaRiyEn padippaRiyEn" - "mridhangam waltz" Laughing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klM3XfIM-qg


& the emotions packed 'nAnoru sindhu' following IR-signature-tablA-waltz :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMM51gNwkxA


That way, both the famous KSC numbers of SB are #IR_Waltz only (கண்களில் தண்ணீர் Laughing )

What about the JKB-KJY numbers? Are there any with the thakita-thakita tisra nadai?

Here is one : 'Anandha nadanam AdinAL':
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5BNN4m0X8Y


And of course the sophisticated dappAnguththu "சாராயத்த ஊத்து ஜன்னலத்தான் சாத்து thaNNiththotti thEdi vandha kannukkutty nAn" had to follow the nAdan waltz, by default:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5NV9xrk-Hw


And to top them all, the very special 'poomAlai vAngi vandhAn', one of my all-time-fav KJY songs is a mridh-waltz (listen to the interludes that follow classic waltz also) Smile
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lAEYIpVNnI


Here's IR's official youtube link for SB for good quality audio:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JrQF0Grp8c

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  crimson king on Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:18 pm

Oru Naal Yaaro is a lovely track.  I had forgotten about it and assumed it to be MSV.  So not even that then!  Another waltz from that period is SPB's debut Aayiram Nilave Vaa, again not MSV.  

SB is interesting because only Naan Oru Sindhu and Thannithothi Thedi are typical IR, the rest are so heavily Carnatic but appakudda he did not give up the 3/4.  On a related note, did you happen to catch the telecast of Ilayaraja Ayiram where Usha Uthup sang Thannithothi?  Fantastic performance, if she had kept up much longer, crowd control would have become an issue.

And yes, actually, many Hindi 3/4 numbers use congo, though there's tabla too in many others.  The modern patterns that IR used on say O Butterfly were not yet known to the music world as such.

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  crimson king on Mon Mar 21, 2016 6:31 pm

Interesting, all these 3/4 songs that I thought must be MSV were all actually V Kumar.  Listening to Kaadhodu Thaan now.  More testimony to how IR has synthesised a wide array of influences.  He has drawn from all sources because he is so open minded and it gets to the point where it's hard to pin down the trademarks/signatures of his music even if we feel intuitively aware of his style.  I never paid much attention to V Kumar songs but he does indeed have a soft touch that's much more in character with the melody of 60s HFM as well as, of course, IR.  Lovely roaming basslines on Unnidam Mayangugiren and 2nd interlude with beautiful piano chords overlaid by wailing solo violin is brilliant.

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  counterpoint on Mon Mar 21, 2016 9:37 pm

crimson, are you listening to Unnidam mayangigiren only now? Don't tell me. It is a one of a kind piano waltz.

Some of MSV's memorable waltzes that I can immediately think of:

kann pona pokkile kaal pogalaama
kalyaana naaL paarthukoLLalaama - great one, a favourite
ellorum nalam vaazha naan paaduven
kannan endhan kaadhalan- lively romantic waltz
naaLai indha veLai- great one, a very SouthIndianish waltz, memorable melody flow


Coming back to IR, not  a big fan of his mid-80s tabla waltz. Some of those songs were rescued more by interludes or by a decent tune/singing than by any ingenious use of waltz.

For a quick change of flavor how about non-TFM waltz from IR?  Velaambal kelum from Olangal is one, a very popular one at that.

Thaimaavin thanalil fom Yaathramozhi another memorable one

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