IR's waltz hits

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IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:32 pm

Most of us in this forum are familiar with the Vicky article on IR's "jazz waltz':

http://solvanam.com/?p=19324

Let us keep that among our references for this thread Smile

Before posting anything on this thread, I would like to post a "disclaimer" Laughing as below:

Music listening and appreciation are personal experiences and preferences Smile  That way, most of my posts belong to "what I feel" category. However, there are also "factual" posts every now and then, those that are not such subjective opinions but merely statistics or otherwise objective observations.

However, all the posts in this thread will be TOTALLY SUBJECTIVE aka personal opinions. So, please don't take them as any kind of science or facts Smile

Now, let's begin...

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:45 pm

Opinion # 1 : IR's "waltz" songs are the most repeat-worthy (with absolutely no aluppu)

(If someone does not agree to the above opinion, please read the disclaimer again Laughing )

I don't know any science behind this (or genetics) but when I carefully looked around for the songs that I keep playing on loop, a majority of them seem to have waltz Shocked

I can't attribute this to any kind of "childhood experience" "nostalgia" or "trauma" Laughing

Just to showcase the above, let me post the song that had most repeats recently (playing for complete journeys of up to 1 hour etc) is this :

இந்த மான் உந்தன் சொந்த மான் (கரகாட்டக்காரன்)

I've tweeted some days back that this is definition of what one would call a masterpiece! 

Enjoy the song here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsVwLMWrQkY



For good audio quality, please go to #IR_Official_YT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chtV7tKl0rA 
(the very first song in this juke box)


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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  Drunkenmunk on Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:29 pm

Regular melody, 6x8 rhythm for most of the song except in the second interlude between 2:51 and 3:08 where it pure 3x4 waltz. QED.



Top favorite usage of waltz since the rest of the song borders on folk and this is prominent but retains itself in the whole organically.

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  crimson king on Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:56 pm

My favourite IR waltz would def be O Butterfly, more so now that Kannulu has reminded me of it.

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  mythila on Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:55 pm

For me it would be the child like , joyous "pootukkaL pOttAlum" from Chathrian.

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  Usha on Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:56 am

Waltz .  Onnum theriyadhu.pattu Sariya....


Poonkatrnodum from poomukapadiyil  ninneyum katthu

Epodhum thondrum oru pattu

Solai poonthendralil oonjal adum


Last edited by Usha on Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:55 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Tue Dec 01, 2015 8:09 pm

I often hear people telling the same opinion (of "repeat worthiness") about such Waltz songs as 'Oh butterfly' Smile

That way I'm not alone in posting that opinion Wink

The recent example is the 'kanulu kalanu' song of abbayitho ammayi Telugu album (just released).

Can some musically knowledgeable folks analyze what could be the reason behind this opinion / phenomenon?

Though ignoramus, let me try to analyze and form an opinion as to why Laughing

Opinion # 2 : IR's "waltz" songs are relatively "simple" and "easy-listening" which makes them repeat-worthy

Obviously I do enjoy listening on repeat mode such complex songs as 'kunnaththE' and 'punnami poovai' on occasions. That is, when I'm relatively fresh and can take in such cerebral challenges and still enjoy Smile

OTOH, most other times, when music is simply used as a means to "calm down" or "take away the weariness of long drives" or simply to be "running in the background with relatively less attention paid", the complex songs are somewhat a distraction and could even drain one. 

For example, while I love "azhagu malarAda" immensely and can get excited to listen to this song typically (sometimes even with watery eyes), on a long day after work when driving back home, it may not be the best choice for me to refresh Embarassed

Instead, the relatively "simpler" waltz number from the same album can bring about the "calming" or "soothing effect" Smile

Yes, rAsAththi onna kANAdha nenju is IR brand super-hit waltz:

Perhaps this should be the poorest-quality-youtube-with-million-plus-hits:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7DLYPVdk1I


Well, for better quality audio, we now have #IR_official_YT :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbidRaHhBW4

First song in this juke box again :

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  crimson king on Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:02 am

I would put songs like Oh Butterfly/Enna Satham in a different category from Rasathi Unnai.  Rasathi Unnai is Tamil waltz with that trademark tabla beat.  There are literally hundreds of songs like that just in the 80s/early 90s.  Off the top of my head: Kanmaniye Pesu, Ennathan Sugamo, Poguthey Poguthey, Kaalai Thendral, Engey Yen Jeevane, Oru Jeevan...I will stop here.  Very Happy  These are all fine songs but more due to the quality of the melody and not specifically the waltz.  IMO they are no more memorable than songs like Nilave Vaa, Ethetho Yennam Valarthen, Seer Kondu Vaa, which are also in a very typical tabla beat that IR used during that period.  

There's another kind of waltz that's been done to death in Bollywood.  I would call it the ballroom waltz song, usually (but not always) involving the hero/heroine striking a melancholic note in the midst of an elite crowd dressed in evening wear with a glass of (presumably) alcohol in hand.  Razz Songs like Main Duniya Bhoola Dunga (Aashiqui), Chhupana Bhi Nahi Aata (Baazigar), Jeevan Ke Din (Bade Dilwale), Suhani Chandni Raatein, etc.  IR also attempted this format once (maybe more but this is the only one I know of) - Kalyanam Vaibhogam.  

What's different about Enna Satham, O Butterfly, Kanalu Kalanu is a dreamy yet intensely romantic quality which evokes a feeling of floating in the clouds.  Baradwaj Rangan once described IR's music as heavy in tone - complex, lots of notes and high octane (as distinct from octave). These three songs feel very light and are yet passionate.  They are among his most delicate and sensitive compositions.  I also agree that here the waltz beat plays a role in making it more accessible - frees up the melody from too much gamakam and gives scope for long sustained notes. Not so much in Enna Satham which is still packed with notes in the vocal melody (not so the interludes which are very minimalist).  But this is noticeable in both Kanalu and O Butterfly.  

I am curious as to the Western source that may have inspired this sort of song from IR and I mean inspired in a good way.  There has to be some precedent but not able to extract it from my memory just now.  And no, not My Favourite Things.  The only similarity between My Favourite Things and O Butterfly is the conventional waltz beat (there are plenty of English songs in 3/4 that use different patterns for the fills so that the effect is also different).  Ever since the advent of rock, this sort of simple waltz beat has been avoided in Western music so maybe something from the 50s/60s (which is probably why I cannot recall anything right away).  Maybe some classical compositions have influenced IR too in this regard. Seal's Kiss From A Rise has a somewhat similar feel but the fills are again different and frankly that song is nowhere close to the tenderness of O Butterfly.  Their music has gotten more and more muscular over the years, leaving no room sadly for such dreamy songs anymore.

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  V_S on Wed Dec 02, 2015 7:44 pm

Nice thread App ji and great analysis CK.

For some reason to my ears, kanulu kanalu piliche sounds 6/8 more than 3/4. I may be wrong. As you might know 6/8 indicates six eighth notes (or dotted quarter notes) in one bar, while 3/4 indicates three quarter notes in one bar. Also the song is tad faster for waltz. Someone can confirm.

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  crimson king on Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:12 am

I tend to agree, sounds like 6/8.

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:10 am

Nice post CK!

nanRi V_Sji for giving additional information on the rhythm biz Smile

BTW, CK sir, IR has too many tricks w.r.t. western / nAdan "waltz" Laughing

Look at this super-hit Malayalam number from a Sathyan Anthikkad directed movie:

swapnangaL kaNNezhudhiya malsya kanyakE (bhAgya devatha) - it is possibly ghatam as rhythm for the nAdan portion in the end Laughing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPuFIV3lSog



What a sweet song! 
(Another relatively "simple" song by IR and often on repeat mode in my drives)

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Thu Dec 03, 2015 7:19 am

That Sathyan Anthikkad guy must have had a taste for waltz Wink

He got this treat from IR sometime prior to the bhAgya devatha song - another super-hit song for the hit movie vinOdha yAthra.

No need to mention that it's a big favorite of mine Embarassed

Countless repeats, this kaiyethA kombaththu song. 
(That too Manjari version and NOT the KJY one)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5p_47xeAz9w


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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  Usha on Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:57 am

app,
 kaiyetha .... kaeka  nenachen.......  Thanks........

what about these songs...

oru poongavanam pudhu manam

chella kuzhandhaigalae thullum vasathangalae

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  Usha on Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:30 am

kottum kuzhal vili

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5AfGFSyo-M

indha paatu varuma indha list ku......

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  counterpoint on Sat Dec 05, 2015 9:23 pm

How about Poove sempoove from Solla thudikkudhu manasu? Another song rich in melody, with various rhythm patterns in interludes etc. but the vocal portions are waltz-esque

Iam not a big fan of IR's overusage of tabla 3/8 beats in the mid-80s. Too many songs having the same patterns-enge en jeevane, idhayam oru kovil, kanmaniye pesu, mandhira punnagaiyo,and hundreds more. I think this is where he lost his grip a bit in the mid-to-late 80s/early 90s. The tunes were OK, sometimes even very good,but if you have these songs in a sequence playing in a  CD in your car or system, by the 4th or 5th song the monotony of the rhythm gets to you.

IR was probably at his most inventive in rhythm usage in his early years.
One case in point: Just listen to Hey paadal ondru from Priya and try following the rhythm pattern he had chosen for it out of the many other lesser alternatives possible.

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  crimson king on Sun Dec 06, 2015 12:43 pm

Which is why, in hindsight, he may have been better off taking on fewer projects instead. He doesn't repeat patterns as much these days as he used to in the mid-late 80s.  It's a natural consequence of taking on so much work combined with his style settling down in the early 80s.  If you see that 3/4 tabla waltz, even that goes back to Vaanmegangale.  Many of the trademark patterns were established by the early 80s.  To his credit, he was far more inventive than past dominant composers...like say RD was already recycling the saxophone part of Roop Tera Mastana (at the end of the mukda) on Abhi Nahi (Jawaani Deewani).  Still he couldn't help falling back on patterns that become very noticeable to long time listeners.  Apart from the 3/4 tabla pattern, there was the fast 4/4 tabla (Edhedho, Nilaave Vaa, Poongatru Thirumbhuma etc), the 4/4 double congo (Sangeetha Meham, Ponmaane, Thenpoove poove), the 6/8 swing-rock beat (Roja poo adivandhadhu, Vaanile Thenila, Vanna Poongavanam), patterns which were ultimately overused.  

Possibly the scenario of the 80s only rewarded taking on more and more work which is what past composers also did and ran themselves into the ground.  But it was only to his detriment, as much as he showed great creativity to still keep modifying his style subtly in spite of a lack of competition (which no other past composer had done in a similar situation).

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  ravinat on Sun Dec 06, 2015 7:21 pm

Raja's waltz. I will start with traditional Western waltz and there are two favorite numbers of him, where he sticks to the definition fully and innovates.

Vandhal Vandhal Rajakumari - Stays sincere to the rhythm from start to finish. Even in interludes, he refuses to deviate...



The one I always respect him in the waltz world for his genius is the song from Avatharam -  Chandirarum Sooriyarum. He maintains the traditional waltz when the song is all folk. Raja himself sings it and it is such a hard act to separate two aspects of himself - the Western composer and the folk singer - sheer genius...


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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  mythila on Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:03 pm

Immersed in this waltz beauty with closed eyes now ...

' nalam vAzha ennaaLum en vaazhthukkaL "

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Mon Dec 14, 2015 11:04 pm

#Opinion 3 : 
When IR is conscious that he is doing a waltz number, he makes sure additional ingredients are included (honey soaked melody, terrific otherwise arrangements etc) to make the song a super hit!

One may ask "how do you know what IR was thinking" - well, such friends please read the disclaimer in the first post Wink

Per my earlier opinions, the waltz rhythm may perhaps constraint the song to be "simple" i.e. limit the meter / percussion arrangements within some boundaries. To the contrary, IR wants to serve a sumptuous meal each time he builds a song. So, to get the aRusuvai, he adds other terrific stuff to such songs!
(BTW, I don't agree with IR's statement that until late 90's he was only serving ooRugAy and he was yet to serve aRusuvai feast...negative hyperbole of the worst kind)

Especially melody - each one of his "waltz" numbers are treated with honey soaked melody! In addition, bass scores / string arrangements / wind instrument phrases - all are typically thookkal in such numbers!

Let me give another super hit sample here - sendhoorappoovE sendhoorappoovE of 16V :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDWzxR0N8Sk


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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  counterpoint on Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:03 pm

was reminded of this one, a relatively rare song which I heard a long time after the movie's release, since the song was not originally picturized,

ingeyum angeyum from Sathya, classic waltz
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt_4XWGOiy8

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  counterpoint on Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:09 pm

subtle waltz
en gaanam from EVK
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK8way6JhVs

the pallavi doesn't even have a prominent rhythm accompaniment, just guitar strumming, but you know its waltz throughout

app_engine, I think you may have hit something  here with your theory about IR's waltz numbers all being special.
Seems to be the case so far. Can be a good theme for a listening collection of songs - Rajawaltz

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  mythila on Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:02 pm

counterpoint wrote:app_engine, I think you may have hit something  here with your theory about IR's waltz numbers all being special.
Seems to be the case so far. Can be a good theme for a listening collection of songs - Rajawaltz
Oh yeah. I agree. Smile

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  counterpoint on Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:02 pm

Another classic waltz from the vintage years

Manadhil from Poonthalir
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOYZtPy98qI

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  counterpoint on Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:12 pm

this thread has made me re-look some favorites from a waltz angle as other wise I wouldn't have paid much attention to that rhythm aspect, since these songs have so many other things going for them

another classic, kalyaana thenila. Waltz doesn't always have to be for a joyous, dance-filled occasion. Raja demonstrates it here yet again. Even though the tabla takes over in the charanams, I like the subtle percussion accompaniment in the pallavi+interludes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWm9kRMfcGQ

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Re: IR's waltz hits

Post  app_engine on Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:32 pm

#Opinion 4
IR's preferred choice of thakita-thakita 3 beat cycle for "racy" songs often yields lovely "waltz" numbers that are sweet melodies yet racy and thus evergreen Smile

While I can't say for sure if this song is a "waltz" in the classic sense, per my personal mind construct this is an IR-Waltz number that supports my above theory :

விழியிலே மலர்ந்தது 
உயிரிலே கலந்தது 
பெண்ணென்னும் பொன்னழகே 
அடடா எங்கெங்கும் உன்னழகே

While people can question on the technical fitness of this song to this thread in totality, there cannot be two opinions about the 3 beat cycle, super-hit popularity of the song, loveliness of the melody or the song being evergreen Smile

Here is the youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckmeSTmc7P0



Of course I've enjoyed posting about this song n number of times on forum threads (over the years) and this is just one more post!

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